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lt519

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,064
Thought this would be a fun topic for discussion. There's plenty of material on Gacha style games on the internet that you can look through, but I'll focus on two here EA Ultimate Team and Fire Emblem Heroes. Loot boxes are essentially a form of Gacha.

A few weeks ago there was a thread What game put Loot Boxes on the Map? and in it most claimed games of this generation like CS:GO, Overwatch, etc. Some dipped way back and looked at games that went F2P inspired by Korean MMOs such as Puzzle Pirates but those didn't really become popular until the App Store hit its stride post 2008. Some went to TF2 where hats were introduced in late 2009.

I know this forum is mostly anti-sports games. Yearly iterations, cash grabs, etc, etc. We don't talk about them much, or their impact, beyond NPD threads and "It's August of course Madden and FIFA are on top." We're mostly nerds and love our Fantasy RPGs and shooters. In that same thread about who put loot crates on the map, a few people piped up and said "FIFA" and I think they were absolutely correct. Sports games at the time had one of the largest populations and they were introduced to micro-transactions long ago. Right around the same time Rock Band started selling songs. No doubt inspired by actual sports collectible cards and the actual physical Gacha industry.

Ultimate Team was introduced by EA in 2007 in a UEFA (non-FIFA) soccer game with a resounding success. A little on the history here via Polygon. But essentially it went so well that they decided to move it over to their FIFA games in 2009 and then Madden in 2010. Here's an (older) look at the number of people that participated in Ultimate Team, culminating in $200 million in revenue in 2013 for and now up to $800 million in revenue in 2016.

To be clear, Ultimate Team is a separate optional mode from the base game.

Courtesy of Polygon:
fifa-ultimate-team-5-year-anniversary-crop_792.jpg


Let's think about that for a second. $800 million in purely digital revenue. Two years ago Kotaku reported this was more than their total digital game sales and half of all their online revenue. It'd take quite a few (tens of millions) physical sales of SW Battlefront II to meet this type of revenue.

This quote from EA's Jorgensen is a gem: "[Players will] typically pay money to beat their friends".

So what is Ultimate Team and how did we get here?

More at fifaaddiction.com: about the mechanics. But at it's core you are given a very mediocre team (each has a card) comprised of random players (bronze, silver or gold) to start with. You then play with your team against others in your division and move up in a ladder style system. You earn currency by completing matches and/or paying money. Each player (card) has a contract length and unless you re-sign them with a contract card (found in packs) they will (EDIT:) be ineligible to play after a certain number of games. New players are found by opening packs. So you aren't getting permanent players, you have to feed them contract cards that drop at different rarities extending your players contract.

Here are the packs and the fairly transparent nature of how many Bronze, Silver, or Gold cards you will get per pack. For reference here are the price of packs. It's not bad, it's a buck for a gold pack. But you have no clue what you'll get out of the pack. The odds aren't published. Want Ronaldo? Keep pulling. What Ultimate Player of the Year Ronaldo card? Keep pulling. How long will I have to pull for? Surely after some time I can guarantee myself Ronaldo? Yup, but you'll never know how much that actually is.

This is my transition into Gacha games. This is essentially a Gacha game. Gacha games are required by law in China to display odds to the user and in Japan the odds may not be worse than X or it is considered an illegal Kompu Gacha (basically enticing people with a Grand Prize that is akin to winning the lottery). In the US we don't have to display the odds yet, so EA can make them whatever they want. So if you want to look for where Gacha ("loot crates") were introduced en mass in console games look no further than sports games.

But let's look at a Gacha game for fun and the actual rates. Because if these are the advertised rates, imagine what you could do if you didn't have to advertise? My favorite game Fire Emblem Heroes operates very similar to Ultimate Team. You are building up a roster of heroes that you pull from "Summons." They can be 3*, 4*, 5* (bronze, silver, gold for the Ultimate Team). 5* are obviously more powerful and desirable. New characters are often only obtainable as 5* characters for a limited period of time.

What are the odds of pulling a 5* character? Under normal circumstances it is a 3% chance of pulling a "banner" character and a 3% chance of pulling a "non-banner" (or old) character. This is displayed prominently in the game. As you pull and fail the rate goes up, as in this picture below the. For every 5 misses you go up 0.25% in each 5* category. It costs 5 orbs per pull, or about $3. $3 for a 3% chance...

21227428_120184488640311_2151083178486398976_n.jpg


On top of this if you are looking for a specific character you have RNG to contend with. When you pull for a character you are presented with 5 random options of varying character types. Red, Green, Blue, and Colorless. Looking for a Red character? You have to hope your 5 options are mostly red or you'll have to sacrifice 5 orbs to get a new selection of 5.

The game does give free orbs, roughly 20 a week, just like Ultimate Team gives coins per matches played. But those are dwarfed by the actual odds. I typically save for a month at a time to collect ~100 orbs and will likely pull 1-2 5* characters, although I've gone over 180 before getting one once. Odds that the characters I do pull are the ones I'm going for? Slim to none. Hence the rub that people then want to buy more orbs.

For fun here is a Summon Simulator. The current banner has three units. If you are willing to get any one of the three you can simulate how many orbs/$$ you'll have to spend to get what you want. I just did it five times and ended up at $32 (60 orbs), $32 (60 orbs), $63 (120 orbs), $95 (180) and $170 (320 orbs). Not once did I get the Karel character if I was actually trying to "complete the set." Combine this with limited time banners and you've got people paying and paying (not giving up due to sunk cost fallacy) and ending up in the hundreds to obtain that special Christmas Tiki character.

Fire Emblem Heroes has 1/10th of the downloads as Super Mario Run (a game you can optionally pay $10 for the entire thing) but has generated more revenue for Nintendo. Back in July it was reported Fire Emblem Heroes made ~$110 million.

Anyway, there really isn't a point to this, except that it is really lucrative business practice that has been around for about a decade now in consoles. Mobile games just refined it, but it has been there all along. But it has seen regulation that require specific odds and transparency in other countries and we should fight for that!
 
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KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,977
I think I said this before but the loot boxes in BF II are actually heavily influenced by FUT. What they missed is that FIFA has also other online modes that can be played without the "loot boxes". I think somehow they didn't even understood completely what makes FUT so successful. It's specifically the fact that's its own game mode that it's fun and didn't need to be forced upon players.
 
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lt519

lt519

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,064
Are you sure you mean Puzzle Pirates? AFAIK, it's not Korean nor it had loot boxes for the longest time.

Oops, I misread the original poster. He quoted the designer of Puzzle Pirates making the decision to go F2P based on the success and model of Korean MMOs. I'll touch up the OP.
 

Deleted member 5535

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Oct 25, 2017
13,656
I think I said this before but the loot boxes in BF II are actually heavily influenced by FUT. What they missed is that FIFA has also other online modes that can be played without the "loot boxes". I think somehow they didn't even understood completely what makes FUT so successful. It's specifically the fact that's it's own game mode that it's fun and didn't need to be forced upon players.

It's basically this. You can play Fifa (and Madden I think?) without ever buying the cards or knowing their existance if you don't play Ultimate Team.
 

Vivi

Member
Nov 10, 2017
345
I was curious about getting a modern Fifa game. I haven't played one since the PS2/GC era but this thread dissuaded me. I don't really like this system how are the fans of the series liking it?
 

Pendas

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,641
Each player (card) has a contract length and unless you re-sign them with a contract card (found in packs) they will leave your team after a certain number of games.

Wait, so you're telling me you have to play a gacha game and spend real money to get a specific character... and if you don't use a card after a certain number of games, that character card that you paid money for is gone forever? Holy shit, if this is true that's some truly evil shit. It's like gambling and the prize is a rental.
 
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lt519

lt519

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,064
I was curious about getting a modern Fifa game. I haven't played one since the PS2/GC era but this thread dissuaded me. I don't really like this system how are the fans of the series liking it?

To be clear Ultimate Team is an entirely separate optional mode. The base game is unaffected by this. It's where they went wrong with BFII.

Wait, so you're telling me you have to play a gacha game and spend real money to get a specific character... and if you don't use a card after a certain number of games, that character card that you paid money for is gone forever? Holy shit, if this is true that's some truly evil shit. It's like gambling and the prize is a rental.

A player comes with X amount of games they can play in. Once they've played X amount of games you can renew their contract via a contract card. If you don't, they can't play. Bronze contract cards give you less games than a Gold contract card. Edited OP to be more clear on that point.
 

Deleted member 5535

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Oct 25, 2017
13,656
I was curious about getting a modern Fifa game. I haven't played one since the PS2/GC era but this thread dissuaded me. I don't really like this system how are the fans of the series liking it?

It's pretty fine. The only thing that you'll see it is on the Ultimate Team. In the rest you'll never see this.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,977
Wait, so you're telling me you have to play a gacha game and spend real money to get a specific character... and if you don't use a card after a certain number of games, that character card that you paid money for is gone forever? Holy shit, if this is true that's some truly evil shit. It's like gambling and the prize is a rental.

You don't lose the player. It's still in your club. You need contract cards to extend his contract to be able to use it in matches. You can also buy the contract cards from the free market within the game using the in-game currency.
 

Deleted member 888

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I genuinely feel bad for people that get caught up in these systems. If you're a millionaire or very rich, fair enough, you can piss money away on anything, but some people who get hooked really could do with saving or spending elsewhere.

It's always your money to do as you wish, as long as you understand and accept these systems simply exist to drain your bank account and it's a never ending conveyer belt. You don't ever get ahead and stay ahead. Then at the end of the day unless it's an MMO often servers will get shut down or the new yearly iteration will be out and you'll be starting from scratch again. Leaving you with next to nothing to show for your money.
 
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lt519

lt519

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,064
I genuinely feel bad for people that get caught up in these systems. If you're a millionaire or very rich, fair enough, you can piss money away on anything, but some people who get hooked really could do with saving or spending elsewhere.

It's always your money to do as you wish, as long as you understand and accept these systems simply exist to drain your bank account and it's a never ending conveyer belt. You don't ever get ahead and stay ahead. Then at the end of the day unless it's an MMO often servers will get shut down or the new yearly iteration will be out and you'll be starting from scratch again. Leaving you with next to nothing to show for your money.

Whales will be whales. On a new banner people will have merged Fire Emblem Heroes characters (if you get duplicates you can merge them to make them more powerful) up to +10. Meaning they've dumped enough money in to beat the odds and get 10 of one specific character. That'd have to cost thousands.

But like you I feel bad for the ones that kind of don't see the cost adding up. It's way too easy to say "Oh, I'll just buy 80 orbs for $40 just this one time because I really like this character!" and then have that happen again next month, and then again. Even then you aren't guaranteed and most of these Gacha games are built around a Powercreep where new characters are stronger and stronger each month enticing you to want the new and best thing. It is very meticulously planned and predatory.

The best advice I can give if you want to get into Gacha games (which can be very fun, Puzzles and Dragons is a good time too) is to play multiple at once to distract yourself from spending money.
 

Mobyduck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,100
Brazil
It's a system that preys on those with obsession to have everything. I know I get caught up extremely easy in these kinds of games because of this aspect (just today I bought an Early Access game about trains where you get new cars straight from a gacha machine). I have enough self-control to not buy into these microtransactions, but I can see how they can be dangerous. I mean, the only reason duplicates exist is to make sure the rate items stay rare.

One thing I think they should do, besides revealing the odds, is to use pseudo-random distribution. Basically, if there is a 1% chance to find a legendary item inside a box, them it should be guaranteed to appear after 100 boxes are opened. Something like this: link.
 
Nov 13, 2017
158
Wait, so you're telling me you have to play a gacha game and spend real money to get a specific character... and if you don't use a card after a certain number of games, that character card that you paid money for is gone forever? Holy shit, if this is true that's some truly evil shit. It's like gambling and the prize is a rental.

Been wondering about this ever since the BF2 stuff hit the headlines. Pro Evo has a similiar thing, been going on for years. And it's all about kids trying to get better teams than their friends to beat them. Crazy stuff, it's been going on for YEARS without anyone giving a crap.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,977
Been wondering about this ever since the BF2 stuff hit the headlines. Pro Evo has a similiar thing, been going on for years. And it's all about kids trying to get better teams than their friends to beat them. Crazy stuff, it's been going on for YEARS without anyone giving a crap.

That's because it's a separate mode. You can still play as your favourite team in other modes without ever touching FUT.
 

Pendas

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,641
A player comes with X amount of games they can play in. Once they've played X amount of games you can renew their contract via a contract card. If you don't, they can't play. Bronze contract cards give you less games than a Gold contract card. Edited OP to be more clear on that point.

Ah ok, this makes more sense. So you still own the card, you just can't play it. Thanks for clarifying.
 

AlexBasch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,307
I think I said this before but the loot boxes in BF II are actually heavily influenced by FUT. What they missed is that FIFA has also other online modes that can be played without the "loot boxes". I think somehow they didn't even understood completely what makes FUT so successful. It's specifically the fact that's its own game mode that it's fun and didn't need to be forced upon players.
I only tried Ultimate Team in FIFA15 and that was my first and last time I spent any time in it, since I could feel you had to pay something to remain competitive, which is why I only play regular seasons and career mode.

If EA gets the idea of making Ultimate Team the one and only online mode, I'm out of FIFA forever.
 

TheZodiacAge

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,068
Ultimate Team in Fifa18 is full of content that gives people the possibility to get good teams without even spending a $

I had in just 5 weeks CR7 and an ICON(retired players they licensed)
This was in past years never possible - These 2 players equal around 4 Million Coins.
My Team itself is worth around 5,5 Million coins and i didn't invest a single $

Ultimate Team is with this year pretty awesome for Road to Glory players.
Just watch some youtubers and their Road to Glory Series and you will see it is pretty easy this year to get a good team and swim in coins.
What you can achieve now in 2 months was barely possible in the past years over the whole year.
Only last year it became more friendly with rewards thanks to the Weekend League and this year with the added Squad Battles you get a very good source of income you can multiply if you are smart with it.

Obviously more skill = better rewards.
Finishing Elite 1 or Top100 in the Weekend League and/or Squad Battles helps a lot to make a lot of money.

Oh and why does this work so good and why does EA make billions with this game mode?
Cause Football is the most popular sport in the world and Fifa is the only serious choice on the market and has an insane passionate community including a very strong presence on youtube and twitch.

EA knows how to make use of that - With Black Friday deals for limited Pack Promos for a higher chance to get something good they made in under 5 minutes a couple million $....multiple times per day.
Kids and addicted people invest but its not needed if you know how to make money.
 
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lt519

lt519

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,064

That's mainly the issue with gacha games. You don't have to spend a penny if you are patient and willing to play the game but everything about them encourages spending. There are videos of FE: Heroes of YouTubers beating all the content with free units.

This wasnt meant as a knock to UT, just that it at heart is a Gacha game.
 

Mandos

Member
Nov 27, 2017
30,867
Hunh, I forgot about Puzzle Pirates, had some fun with that back when I was much younger. Didn't spend a cent and played the PC version