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Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,127
But national dex pokemon could just appear on battles and never in the overworld. Also they could do battle frontier DLC. They want to simplify the game and that is the bad thing.
It all depends what new animations they include. Of course we don't know the full extent of it and there could be ways around it.

I don't think they made the decision lightly.

I think you're taking the "simplify" stuff a bit too literal.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,944
I've seen a lot of people, especially on Reddit, call the developers lazy, incompetent, and a whole slew of personal attacks. I'd really recommend anyone that does that to read Blood, Sweat, and Pixels by Jason Schreier. It goes into the development of games made, and it really opened my eyes on how much of making video games isn't a clear cut path on how the game will be made from start to finish.

The developers don't even know if the game will be fun until it's in a playable state. Chances are that at some point, they threw out what they were working on for the past month because the feature wasn't fun, or maybe it was too confusing for the test group. And this is a completely normal part of the development process. To make up for it, the developers would end up crunching for months. Some employees would decide that the commute from home to work was too long, so some would sleep under their desks; some would get an apartment closer to their work so they could work on the game more. And why would they crunch like this? Why wouldn't they just delay the game?

Well, there are deadlines. Companies need to make profit to keep their doors open and make sure their employees have a job tomorrow. It costs about $10,000 per person per month to make a video game. If 100 people were working on Sword and Shield, that's $1,000,000 in costs that Game Freak would have to make up for every month that the game is delayed and another month where they don't get revenue from their game.

And if Game Freak were to delay their video game, they would also have to delay the anime, the production on toys -- anything that requires the video game to be out first. Despite what people say, the video is not what pulls in the big bucks for Pokemon. It's the merchandise, which is over triple the total revenue of the Pokemon games.

Again, making video games isn't just some people eating Doritos and drinking Mountain Dew. It's a business full of employees that need to feed their families. They sacrificed higher pay and a reasonable workweek to work on their passion, so I would like everyone to keep that in mind when discussing Game Freak's decision.
Literally all they have to do is announce they're going to patch in the rest of the Pokémon post-release. They wouldn't be accessible until Home releases, anyway. It's 2019, games can be patched now.
 

Eclipse

Member
Jan 31, 2018
176
Germany
I always had a feeling that they'd just wait for the backlash to fade away. But once they release Pokémon Home, they should have all 3D Models ready meaning the next game could have all Pokémon again, theoretically speaking. I wonder. They could obviously patch them but that will never happen.
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,745
Canada
Again, I think a lot of negativity would die down if they were transparent and revealed which Pokémon are not making it in.

I know I'll just stay quiet and consume product if Whimsicott is in.

But not doing so is just terrible.
Though it's more terrible if Whimsicott isn't in.
They would have to give us more Prankster mons. Meowstic isn't enough.
 

Leo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,558
Of course it'll sell millions, still won't change the fact that this game will probably always be seen as the most divisive game in the series among the fanbase. Highly doubt Gamefreak can do more damage to the mainline games but who knows what they'll decide to cut next in their pursuit for "quality". I can see them removing breeding again and people justifying it.

Never underestimate GFs ability to fuck up. Everything was looking great with SwSh and then they dropped the bomb.

It was discussed earlier, and I think there is some logic to the thinking that, from now on they might work on slowly streamlining the game's battle mechanics to make them more casual mobile players friendly. People were sure initially that Let's Go was gonna be a completely separate line and we already saw that the Pokemon cut wasn't exclusive to it. We also have seen them getting rid of Megas and Z moves, which shows they aren't afraid to cut established battle elements. I can see them bringing more and more elements from Let's Go in future installments trying to merge the two games and have the franchise be friendlier and more appealing to kids who play Go or other games on their cellphones. That might mean no wild battles, no abilities, no levels, etc. I don't think anything is out of the cards anymore.

They already made claims and made moves that imply their adult fanbase is expendable for them.
 

Kiraly

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,848
Of course it'll sell millions, still won't change the fact that this game will probably always be seen as the most divisive game in the series among the fanbase. Highly doubt Gamefreak can do more damage to the mainline games but who knows what they'll decide to cut next in their pursuit for "quality". I can see them removing breeding again and people justifying it.

The excuse will be that it's a 60 v 40 USD game on a lower player base when this underperforms.
 

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
I've seen a lot of people, especially on Reddit, call the developers lazy, incompetent, and a whole slew of personal attacks. I'd really recommend anyone that does that to read Blood, Sweat, and Pixels by Jason Schreier. It goes into the development of games made, and it really opened my eyes on how much of making video games isn't a clear cut path on how the game will be made from start to finish.

The developers don't even know if the game will be fun until it's in a playable state. Chances are that at some point, they threw out what they were working on for the past month because the feature wasn't fun, or maybe it was too confusing for the test group. And this is a completely normal part of the development process. To make up for it, the developers would end up crunching for months. Some employees would decide that the commute from home to work was too long, so some would sleep under their desks; some would get an apartment closer to their work so they could work on the game more. And why would they crunch like this? Why wouldn't they just delay the game?

Well, there are deadlines. Companies need to make profit to keep their doors open and make sure their employees have a job tomorrow. It costs about $10,000 per person per month to make a video game. If 100 people were working on Sword and Shield, that's $1,000,000 in costs that Game Freak would have to make up for every month that the game is delayed and another month where they don't get revenue from their game.

And if Game Freak were to delay their video game, they would also have to delay the anime, the production on toys -- anything that requires the video game to be out first. Despite what people say, the video is not what pulls in the big bucks for Pokemon. It's the merchandise, which is over triple the total revenue of the Pokemon games.

Again, making video games isn't just some people eating Doritos and drinking Mountain Dew. It's a business full of employees that need to feed their families. They sacrificed higher pay and a reasonable workweek to work on their passion, so I would like everyone to keep that in mind when discussing Game Freak's decision.

I actually have some issues with "Blood, Sweat, and Pixels," in that I feel like it looks at crunch-culture within game development without giving proper context as to why it's a HUGE problem that needs to be addressed, almost to the point where it could be seen as excusing it. Now, I'm familiar with Jason's work and I know he's on the level when it comes to games journalism, he obviously cares about the human side of games and game development, and he does go into the problems crunch creates for these developers, but so much of crunch is treated as just "the nature of the beast."

With DA:I, it was a case of needing that "Bioware magic" for everything to click together at the last moment, even though as we've seen with Anthem we know that sort of mindset is creatively destructive and limiting. There are examples of passion projects like Pillars of Eternity, Shovel Knight, and Stardew Valley put up next to big AAA releases, as if the choices of individuals engaging in their art by choice vs. people working what should be a steady job that ought to treat them and their time better are one and the same thing. The section on The Witcher 3 marvels at how these devs pulled off the impossible, of creating a world that was both incredibly expansive and incredibly deep and full of story content, without going into enough depth about the labor laws and wages of Poland that actually made those things a reality. It's been a while since I've read the book so I apologize if there's any details I'm misremembering, but I don't remember if Team Bondi or other examples of crunch destroying a studio are given their spotlight.

I may be coming off as overly critical, and I don't meant to, I really like the book and a lot of it is genuinely moving considering the passion and technique and struggle involved, but any serious look into the modern state of game development cannot, I feel, ignore the facts that

1. Crunch doesn't make games better
2. Crunch is a terrible burden on the brilliant people making these games, they're burning out, and they're just being replaced by fresh talent where the same thing will happen to them
3. Not enough is being done to protect developers from crunch

Again, I'm familiar with Jason's work and how his reporting has done a lot to shed light on these very issues, he's done a lot of good. I just felt like the actual book could and should have gone a lot farther.

Anyways, with regards to Pokémon I feel like the decision to limit the number of Pokémon in the game's dex was inevitable, there was no way we were going to continue seeing games with full National Dexes as we approach and inevitably exceed 1,000 Pokémon. We're gonna see slowdown on development just like we've seen the number of new Pokémon per gen settle at lower and lower figures, and really that's something I'm okay with considering Colosseum and XD Gale of Darkness are my all-time favorite Pokémon games, and I never bothered with trying to get my Gen III team or whatever transferred over.
 

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
17,283
Midgar, With Love
I have a feeling these games are going to surprise a fair number of people after launch with a decent-quality adventure experience and various other attractive features. It won't stop more hardcore fans from being upset over the lack of National Dex but a lot of casual players who have been swept up in all of this will look back and wonder what the commotion was about.

Doesn't excuse things, of course. Just a prediction. As for myself, I don't care about the National Dex — I just wish Mega Evolutions were still around. Their exclusion stings. I loved them from the moment they were announced.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
Seriously, learn how to read, you even said that he is not talking about different teams, when the whole point of his comment is about that.

Confusing 1 AAA Pokemon game by a different studio as if it means the exact same thing as multiple teams in Game Freak working on major AAA titles. There's a huge difference between a different studio vs. different team within the same studio. So no, you are wrong in that he's not talking about a different team and was talking about a different studio, and Pokemon titles have been near-yearly releases as opposed to once per 3/4 years.
 

louisacommie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,571
New Jersey
The uncertainty is too in their favour, I expect them to not announce it for this game or any of the others going forward. Please be excited to discover if your favourite made it in when you purchase the game on launch day.
Jynx will be in over your fave

it is more important to have redesigned blackface in the games then your non blackface fave becuase the redesigned black face Pokemon happened to be from gen 1
 

Cronogear

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,984
I have a feeling these games are going to surprise a fair number of people after launch with a decent-quality adventure experience and various other attractive features. It won't stop more hardcore fans from being upset over the lack of National Dex but a lot of casual players who have been swept up in all of this will look back and wonder what the commotion was about.

Doesn't excuse things, of course. Just a prediction. As for myself, I don't care about the National Dex — I just wish Mega Evolutions were still around. Their exclusion stings. I loved them from the moment they were announced.
Let's hope so. I also don't care about the National Dex, but I wasn't impressed by the Treehouse demos at E3.
 

brinstar

User requested ban
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,272
I have a feeling these games are going to surprise a fair number of people after launch with a decent-quality adventure experience and various other attractive features. It won't stop more hardcore fans from being upset over the lack of National Dex but a lot of casual players who have been swept up in all of this will look back and wonder what the commotion was about.

Doesn't excuse things, of course. Just a prediction. As for myself, I don't care about the National Dex — I just wish Mega Evolutions were still around. Their exclusion stings. I loved them from the moment they were announced.

Honestly considering we've seen what amounts to like 20 minutes of this game tops a lot of this insanity is pretty funny.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,127
Made the mistake of looking at Reddit again and there are so many posts there based on so much misinformation that has spread. I saw so many people regurgitating the whole "TPC are wanting to make money so are shafting Game Freak who are now trying to make products elsewhere" bollocks and so much just general crap.

This is part of the problem with the whole Dexit thing. The culling sucks, it fucking sucks and they need to find a way to reverse it. However, there's so much misinformation and inaccuracies being spread around as fact which then riles people up more and more, and every time I have tried to correct the misinformation that's spreading, people rage because I'm "defending Game Freak"
 

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,068
I'm curious where other people who aren't giving Game Freak their money because of this are standing now. I still refuse to give them my money, but I'm allowing myself to get excited for these games again, I'll just buy one of them used a little while after release.
 

CatDoggo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
775
I'm curious where other people who aren't giving Game Freak their money because of this are standing now. I still refuse to give them my money, but I'm allowing myself to get excited for these games again, I'll just buy one of them used a little while after release.

Still largely uninterested in them. If I do ever play them, it probably won't be until a few years down the line and with the connectivity between games fucked for the foreseeable future, it'll just be a one and done playthrough without the hours upon hours I usually spend with the games once the main story is finished. I've pretty much entirely lost my passion for the series at this point due to this move, even to the point where it's effecting my desire to continue playing older games as well. I've given up on the shiny hunts I was working on because now all I think is, 'What's the point? They're just going to end up stuck in Pokejail anyway until GameFreak is gracious enough to put them in a game, if ever.'
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,121
I'm curious where other people who aren't giving Game Freak their money because of this are standing now. I still refuse to give them my money, but I'm allowing myself to get excited for these games again, I'll just buy one of them used a little while after release.
I said I'm out and that hasn't changed. The thing I love most about team building in the game is no longer in it. 3 games in a row that aren't 'for me' is too many.
 

Zelas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,020
I'm curious where other people who aren't giving Game Freak their money because of this are standing now. I still refuse to give them my money, but I'm allowing myself to get excited for these games again, I'll just buy one of them used a little while after release.
Still not interested. I'll wait for the inevitable remake that will fill in the holes.
 
I'm curious where other people who aren't giving Game Freak their money because of this are standing now. I still refuse to give them my money, but I'm allowing myself to get excited for these games again, I'll just buy one of them used a little while after release.
I'm still not interested. I've been burned by pretty every game in a different way since the start of Gen 6 and I think the Dexit news was the final straw. There are so many great games of Switch that I don't really feek the urgency to drop $60 on one of the few first party series that I feel is regressing.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,124
Limburg
I'm on the edge about it. I have zero desire to play with the new "mechanics" they added. And the new Pokémon aren't particularly exciting to me. So I'm not hyped at all for SWSH. But, I know all my friends and family and SO will be playing it so I will eventually end up with a copy
 

JoeInky

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,384
I'm curious where other people who aren't giving Game Freak their money because of this are standing now. I still refuse to give them my money, but I'm allowing myself to get excited for these games again, I'll just buy one of them used a little while after release.

I'm hard out, not even going to buy it used, took all my pokemon out of bank and they'll just stay in Moon until GF gets it's shit together I guess, which could possibly be never because this game will still sell loads because it has a shitty looking open world area, but it's not as if I don't have hundreds of other games to play, this series isn't for me anymore.
 
Nov 1, 2017
2,337
I'm curious where other people who aren't giving Game Freak their money because of this are standing now. I still refuse to give them my money, but I'm allowing myself to get excited for these games again, I'll just buy one of them used a little while after release.

Nothing's changed for me. I'm basically done with this series.

I'm only here for the memes and nostalgia now. I've been a big fan since Pokemon Yellow, have all the games, tons of merch, etc. so I'm feeling rather melancholy about all this.
 

Kentsui

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,515
I'm curious where other people who aren't giving Game Freak their money because of this are standing now. I still refuse to give them my money, but I'm allowing myself to get excited for these games again, I'll just buy one of them used a little while after release.
This killed the hype completely for me, although I enjoy what i'm seeing in the latest trailer I still won't buy the game (s).

The only way they might be able to spark some interest would be with a meaty endgame like we've never seen but that's not going to happen.

They also made sure that no matter what I won't be buying Town.

And even without all that the idea of having to pay for NSWOnline + pokemon home wasn't exactly thrilling, now it just sounds stupid.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,544
I'm curious where other people who aren't giving Game Freak their money because of this are standing now. I still refuse to give them my money, but I'm allowing myself to get excited for these games again, I'll just buy one of them used a little while after release.
I'm still out. I'm not paying $92 for a main series game hat doesn't have all the Pokemon in it.
 

Ramsay

Member
Jul 2, 2019
3,623
Australia
I'm curious where other people who aren't giving Game Freak their money because of this are standing now. I still refuse to give them my money, but I'm allowing myself to get excited for these games again, I'll just buy one of them used a little while after release.

I'm barely in, as in I'll still get the game, albeit used a couple months after release. That being said, Pokemon being on a decline since Gen 6 means that Sword and Shield is a make-or-break game for me. If the games are mediocre for a third time in a row and a fourth time out of five releases, then I'll just conclude that the series isn't worth getting invested in once again. And I won't lie, while the removal of the National Dex is far a deal-breaker, it is a pretty ominous sign for the quality of the final game.
 

King Alamat

Member
Nov 22, 2017
8,117
I'm curious where other people who aren't giving Game Freak their money because of this are standing now. I still refuse to give them my money, but I'm allowing myself to get excited for these games again, I'll just buy one of them used a little while after release.
Same here. I'll probably pick it up in a G2K a year later.
 

TimeFire

Avenger
Nov 26, 2017
9,625
Brazil
I'm curious where other people who aren't giving Game Freak their money because of this are standing now. I still refuse to give them my money, but I'm allowing myself to get excited for these games again, I'll just buy one of them used a little while after release.

I'm still out until they announce Pokemon are back. I'm not buying any mainline games until it's announced. (I'd say spinoffs are fine but they don't really exist anymore)
 

Deleted member 29464

Account closed at user request
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,121
I should still have a voucher by the time this releases, that is if Astral Chain doesn't end up using it. I'll probably wait for reviews or leaks to decide if I'm getting it, if it turns out handholding is significantly reduced, the campaign is significantly better, and there is a large post game, I may end up getting the game. I might have to wait for user reviews and impressions that aren't just dissapointed about the cut because I remember when it came to ORAS, it seemed like all the reviews either didn't care for discussing post game or that there was some embargo on what you could and couldn't talk about making them read very much like previews.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
1,609
North Carolina
I'm still undecided, and the person I gameshare with is getting it so I don't have to buy it myself, but I'd feel bad not getting the other version like we originally agreed on.
 

Natiko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,263
I'm still out until they announce Pokemon are back. I'm not buying any mainline games until it's announced. (I'd say spinoffs are fine but they don't really exist anymore)
I'm right there with you. May not make a difference to them, but that's fine. At least I won't be wasting my time with a franchise that has abandoned its core tenet.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,494
There are definitely things I like about Sword and Shield but man is Dynamax and Gigantomax uninteresting at the moment

I dunno. This will definitely be a game I take a wait and see approach before buying
 

Moltres006

Banned
Jan 5, 2019
1,818
I'm curious where other people who aren't giving Game Freak their money because of this are standing now. I still refuse to give them my money, but I'm allowing myself to get excited for these games again, I'll just buy one of them used a little while after release.
I'll wait for the third version with all the pokemon. I mean, we know its gonna happen.
 

Fulminator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,202
I plan on buying the game at launch. I don't much care about the Pokédex cut and what we've seen so far of the game looks good to me and continues to look better and better.

I'll wait for the third version with all the pokemon. I mean, we know its gonna happen.
It's not. They literally said it's not happening.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,121
So we're on the "This game is going to underperform" phase now, huh? Just like Let's Go.
.
low-angle-view-scarecrow-against-cloudy-sky-562838541-5aaf18adfa6bcc00360a609c.jpg
 

AlexFlame116

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 17, 2017
23,182
Utah
I'll wait for the third version with all the pokemon. I mean, we know its gonna happen.
Masuda is a man of his word. If he says that from now on no Pokemon game will have all Pokemon available to use, it hurts to think about but, it probably means that not even a third version or Ultra versions will have all Pokemon.
 
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