A modest proposal: No smartphones for kids

SmackDaddy · Mar 25, 2024

Maxim726x said:
What skills do you think, specifically, kids will be robbed of if they don't have access to a smartphone?

Learning how to interact with the internet. Basics for caring for valuable objects. Learning how to be mindful about your relationship with technology.

But i think it's more about just being socially equal to those around you, as others have mentioned, and the ability to think like other kids who have smartphones too. Thats important, in many, many ways.

LGHT_TRSN · Mar 25, 2024

Macam said:
You tell me. You're the one comparing smartphones to cigarettes for some weird reason.

It's not for 'some weird reason' it's because smartphones have literally been found to be addictive just like cigarettes and ya'll pretending that they aren't and there is no comparison to cigarettes is honestly the weird part of all this.

Smartphone and Internet Addiction - HelpGuide.org

Can't put down your smartphone? Understand the symptoms of smartphone and internet addiction and how to get help.

www.helpguide.org

Palette Swap · Mar 25, 2024

RPGam3r said:
Well I guess my examples would be when I'm not around, or when doing something a bit more time consuming and overlapping with my own needs.

If anything, I think your posts illustrate how an outright ban (as opposed to targeted app/site lists) can be counterproductive to achieve that stated goal of giving kids independence and autonomy.

Macam · Mar 25, 2024

Hollywood Duo said:
Well there are 2 different scenarios. The most common one which is no parental oversight absolutely can be compared to cigarettes. The other one is heavily monitored parental controls which is probably fine if tuned properly.

No, there's a whole spectrum of scenarios within those two extremes. Plenty of healthy ones even.

LGHT_TRSN said:
It's not for 'some weird reason' it's because smartphones have literally been found to be addictive just like cigarettes and ya'll pretending that they aren't and there is no comparison to cigarettes is honestly the weird part of all this.

Smartphone and Internet Addiction - HelpGuide.org

Can't put down your smartphone? Understand the symptoms of smartphone and internet addiction and how to get help.

www.helpguide.org

That's not really backed up by your article and there really don't seem to be any scientific articles really asserting that offhand, but the two are still not the same, as smartphones are multipurpose computational and communication devices and addiction is going to depend on usage.

They're just not the same, and equating the two makes for a really silly discussion, devoid of actual substance. By that token, if we're just going for the worst case scenario and potential harm, you may as well ban laptops and computers in school.

ArrogantBastard · Mar 25, 2024

Macam said:
They're just not the same, and equating the two makes for a really silly discussion, devoid of actual substance. By that token, if we're just going for the worst case scenario and potential harm, you may as well ban laptops and computers in school.

You know what is really neat about those laptops and computers at school, they are locked the fuck down. You can't install shit on them without administrator access, not to mention the kids are going to need a VPN to access anything.

The addictive nature of smartphones which is what the individual was getting at is akin to early cigarette advertisement and even vapes. You have a product that is designed to be as unhealthy as possible.

Macam · Mar 25, 2024

ArrogantBastard said:
The addictive nature of smartphones which is what the individual was getting at is akin to early cigarette advertisement and even vapes. You have a product that is designed to be as unhealthy as possible.

"Designed" is doing a lot of work here. Not sure why some people keep going to the extremes, but go on, I guess.

ArrogantBastard · Mar 25, 2024

Macam said:
"Designed" is doing a lot of work here. Not sure why some people keep going to the extremes, but go on, I guess.

Social media and the vast majority of applications that tweens and teens are using are 100% designed to be addictive.

Are you saying that isn't the case?

LGHT_TRSN · Mar 25, 2024

Macam said:
That's not really backed up by your article and there really don't seem to be any scientific articles really asserting that offhand, but the two are still not the same, as smartphones are multipurpose computational and communication devices and addiction is going to depend on usage.

They're just not the same, and equating the two makes for a really silly discussion, devoid of actual substance. By that token, if we're just going for the worst case scenario and potential harm, you may as well ban laptops and computers in school.

Failing to recognize empirical evidence does indeed make for a silly discussion.

Conclusions: Our findings suggest that there are consistent associations between smartphone addiction and physical and mental health, especially mental health. Social awareness campaigns about smartphone addiction and its impact on physical and mental health are needed. Further studies, especially randomized controlled trials, are warranted to validate the impacts of smartphone addiction.

Smartphone Addiction and Associated Health Outcomes in Adult Populations: A Systematic Review

Background: Smartphones play a critical role in increasing human–machine interactions, with many advantages. However, the growing popularity of smartphone use has led to smartphone overuse and addiction. This review aims to systematically investigate ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Conclusions: The present study unveils significant associations among smartphone addiction, feelings of loneliness, and subjective well-being in university students, confirming the mediating role of loneliness between smartphone addiction and subjective well-being. While smartphone use might not immediately reduce an individual's subjective well-being, once addiction sets in, it may be associated with a decline in subjective well-being, exerting an indirect influence by affecting feelings of loneliness. These findings bear crucial implications for enhancing the subjective well-being of university students. Educational professionals in higher institutions can elevate the subjective well-being of students by preventing smartphone addiction. Furthermore, strategies such as bolstering familial, peer, and institutional support can mitigate loneliness among university students, thereby enhancing their subjective well-being.

The mediating role of loneliness in the relationship between smartphone addiction and subjective well-being - Scientific Reports

As smartphones become increasingly prevalent worldwide, the relationship between smartphone addiction and subjective well-being has become a focal point in academic circles. Prior research predominantly delved into the direct correlation between smartphone addiction and subjective well-being...

www.nature.com

Smartphone addiction has negative impacts on student learning and overall academic performance.
The greater the use of a phone while studying, the greater the negative impact on learning.
The skills and cognitive abilities students needed for academic success are negatively affected by excessive phone use.
The results of this meta-analysis implied that addicted users show a diminished level in learning.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2451958821000622

Calamari41 · Mar 25, 2024

RPGam3r said:
Never thought I would see someone comparing [checks notes] a kid tracking the trails they hike or the plants they see with drinking or doing drugs.

Come on, you're being obtuse. If kids were just using their phones to have their parents pick them up after practice and identify mushrooms on a hike, this wouldn't be a constant national conversation.

You have great kids and are a great parent. Not all are. Go visit some teacher sudreddits sometime to see how vast swaths of kids are using their phones.

Rosebud · Mar 25, 2024

ArrogantBastard said:
You know what is really neat about those laptops and computers at school, they are locked the fuck down. You can't install shit on them without administrator access, not to mention the kids are going to need a VPN to access anything.

The addictive nature of smartphones which is what the individual was getting at is akin to early cigarette advertisement and even vapes. You have a product that is designed to be as unhealthy as possible.

But smartphones can be locked down just as much. If parents don't bother with that it's on them

Macam · Mar 25, 2024

ArrogantBastard said:
Social media and the vast majority of applications that tweens and teens are using are 100% designed to be addictive.

Are you saying that isn't the case?

No, but thrown off by your casual conflation of smartphone makers with (primarily social media) application developers, which are two different things.

Rosebud said:
But smartphones can be locked down just as much. If parents don't bother with that it's on them

There's apparently no middle ground here.

I just thank god no one's posting on here from their highly addictive ~~cancerous~~ smartphones and teens absolutely do not have any iPads/tablets/smartphones/computers at home.

ArrogantBastard · Mar 25, 2024

Macam said:
No, but thrown off by your casual conflation of smartphone makers with (primarily social media) application developers, which are two different things.

What exactly do you think tweens and teens are using smartphones for?

If they are using the features that are locking out all of that stuff, what do they need the smartphone for in the first place.

Rosebud said:
But smartphones can be locked down just as much. If parents don't bother with that it's on them

So I buy my 12/13 year old or younger apparently and I lock them out of the ability to install applications, I lock them out open access to the internet, I lock them out of social media because clearly we all agree that is toxic and designed to be so. Why do they need this device at such a young age again?

Rosebud · Mar 25, 2024

ArrogantBastard said:
So I buy my 12/13 year old or younger apparently and I lock them out of the ability to install applications, I lock them out open access to the internet, I lock them out of social media because clearly we all agree that is toxic and designed to be so. Why do they need this device at such a young age again?

At 13 they can message their friends, listen to music, google maps, take pictures/videos, read books/comics, even play some games. I don't use social media so that's basically how I use my phone

Calamari41 · Mar 25, 2024

ArrogantBastard said:
What exactly do you think tweens and teens are using smartphones for?

If they are using the features that are locking out all of that stuff, what do they need the smartphone for in the first place.

So I buy my 12/13 year old or younger apparently and I lock them out of the ability to install applications, I lock them out open access to the internet, I lock them out of social media because clearly we all agree that is toxic and designed to be so. Why do they need this device at such a young age again?

This is the whole thing. If you are locking your kid's phone down so much that they can only use it to text/call mom and dad, search the encyclopedia, and use the hiking app, then you are essentially on the "No" side of the "will you let your kid have a smart phone?" question.

People need to realize that a LOT of these kids are sitting there with totally unlocked and wide open smart phones. They're sitting in class watching YouTube, scrolling TikTok, watching pornhub, etc.

LGHT_TRSN · Mar 25, 2024

Macam said:
No, but thrown off by your casual conflation of smartphone makers with (primarily social media) application developers, which are two different things.

There's apparently no middle ground here.

I just thank god no one's posting on here from their highly addictive ~~cancerous~~ smartphones and teens absolutely do not have any iPads/tablets/smartphones/computers at home.

How bout you read the scientific journal articles I posted that show it's not just about social media or does that contradict your argument.

The middle ground is having a smartphone at 14. That's why it's a 'modest proposal'.

ArrogantBastard · Mar 25, 2024

Rosebud said:
At 13 they can message their friends, listen to music, google maps, take pictures/videos, read books/comics, even play some games. I don't use social media so that's basically how I use my phone

That is wonderful, you clearly aren't the average tween/teen. They don't want to just do that, they want the social media applications, that is precisely what this is about. A huge portion of this thread has been devoted to the fact that kids are going to be bullied if they don't have the smartphone, they will also get bullied if they have the nanny lockdown version that doesn't allow them to access the apps...which is exactly what this is about.

They want open access to the internet, the popular social media apps. They aren't using it for google maps, reading comics, etc.

They can text their friends, listen to music, and take pictures with a dumb phone. Lets try and just be honest, okay?

If kids were using their phones just to do what you are stating, you really think anyone would care?

Rosebud · Mar 25, 2024

ArrogantBastard said:
That is wonderful, you clearly aren't the average tween/teen. They don't want to just do that, they want the social media applications, that is precisely what this is about. A huge portion of this thread has been devoted to the fact that kids are going to be bullied if they don't have the smartphone, they will also get bullied if they have the nanny lockdown version that doesn't allow them to access the apps...which is exactly what this is about.

They want open access to the internet, the popular social media apps. They aren't using it for google maps, reading comics, etc.

They can text their friends, listen to music, and take pictures with a dumb phone. Lets try and just be honest, okay?

If kids were using their phones just to do what you are stating, you really think anyone would care?

To be honest I have no idea how dumb phones are these days, I'm just assuming they are like the ones I used to have with Snake installed

Macam · Mar 25, 2024

LGHT_TRSN said:
How bout you read the scientific journal articles I posted that show it's not just about social media or does that contradict your argument.

Hard to contradict my argument when half a dozen posts in you still seem to think it's "smartphones can't be addictive".

That's not my argument.

ArrogantBastard · Mar 25, 2024

Macam said:
Hard to contradict my argument when half a dozen posts in you still seem to think it's "smartphones can't be addictive".

That's not my argument.

If people are misunderstanding your argument, maybe you should spell it out a bit more clearly?

I'm going back through:

Macam said:
I get the argument and there's certainly a case to be made for it, but thinking this will go anywhere (in the US at least) is fanciful.

Maybe some private boarding schools might do it.

Macam said:
Not remotely the same, but sure, okay.

Macam said:
There's more utility to a smartphone than that. Trying to equate the two is just silly.

Macam said:
Is this a serious question

Macam said:
You tell me. You're the one comparing smartphones to cigarettes for some weird reason.

All of this; thanks for being sensible. I think there are sufficient controls and reasons where a smartphone can make sense. I'm not pro or anti smartphone, and I certainly understand the concerns about potential harm, but there's also potential real utility and acting like smartphones are the equivalent of cigarettes is absurd.

Macam said:
No, there's a whole spectrum of scenarios within those two extremes. Plenty of healthy ones even.

That's not really backed up by your article and there really don't seem to be any scientific articles really asserting that offhand, but the two are still not the same, as smartphones are multipurpose computational and communication devices and addiction is going to depend on usage.

They're just not the same, and equating the two makes for a really silly discussion, devoid of actual substance. By that token, if we're just going for the worst case scenario and potential harm, you may as well ban laptops and computers in school.

What am I missing, what is the argument, tell me it isn't simply phones aren't cigarettes.

Macam · Mar 25, 2024

ArrogantBastard said:
If people are misunderstanding your argument, maybe you should spell it out a bit more clearly?

It's like one person. We're not having a constructive back and forth. I understand their position, they don't understand mine or the counterpoints and that's fine.

ArrogantBastard · Mar 25, 2024

Macam said:
It's like one person. We're not having a constructive back and forth. I understand their position, they don't understand mine or the counterpoints and that's fine.

Bro, what is your argument? Cause I'm not seeing it.

Messofanego · Mar 25, 2024

This analysis, which is US-specific, is missing one key element of why kids are more on smartphones than ever is because of USA's excessive car culture and child-unfriendly infrastructure especially in the suburbs, which has reduced children's ability to socialise. In USA, it's a small minority of children (11%) who walk or bike to school by themselves. Majority of kids are driven to school. Parents are more paranoid than ever for their children's safety because of stranger danger, but in reality that is exceedingly rare and its more that their routes around the neighbourhood are not safe. The number two cause of death for children is vehicle accidents. Number one is firearm-related deaths, which again is a USA-specific finding. Such as 45,222 firearm deaths in 2020. Just a few years ago it was vehicles as the number one.

View: https://youtu.be/W2nB0zchM4I?si=PcWmHb_n8OW7DdkN

Entropic · Mar 25, 2024

Cigarettes are way cooler than smartphones, let's be real here.

RPGam3r · Mar 25, 2024

Calamari41 said:
Come on, you're being obtuse. If kids were just using their phones to have their parents pick them up after practice and identify mushrooms on a hike, this wouldn't be a constant national conversation.

You have great kids and are a great parent. Not all are. Go visit some teacher sudreddits sometime to see how vast swaths of kids are using their phones.

This just brings me back to parenting license. Also, I've already said I'm game for phones being banned from classrooms, if they're setup properly they're basically just emergency devices anyway.

SchrodingersDog · Mar 26, 2024

Messofanego said:
Number one is firearm-related deaths, which again is a USA-specific finding. Such as 45,222 firearm deaths in 2020. Just a few years ago it was vehicles as the number one.

I was torn whether to reply or not as I don't want to derail the thread, but.. holy hell. I knew about the general firearms situation in US, as well as the flurry of school shooting stories.. but no way in hell would I have expected for firearms to be in the top 5 or even top 10 of causes of death for children. That's absolutely insane!

To circle back to the thread - I wonder how much that quantitatively contributes to social isolation. Growing up I usually walked or cycled to school, or sometimes took the bus. And I was definitely always alongside friends when doing that. But at the same time, the way from/to school was definitely still only a minor fraction of "face to face time with friends" - the majority of that would've definitely been in/around school time (breaks etc), and of course meeting up after school

Froli · Apr 30, 2024

Found this in front page of Reddit
=====

Stop children using smartphones until they are 13, says French report
Children should be banned from most social media until 18 amid attempts to 'monetise' them, says Macron-commissioned study

Reddit link

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1cgzxso/stop_children_using_smartphones_until_they_are_13/

Article Link

Stop children using smartphones until they are 13, says French report

Children should be banned from most social media until 18 amid attempts to ‘monetise’ them, says Macron-commissioned study

www.theguardian.com

Hollywood Duo · Apr 30, 2024

Froli said:
Found this in front page of Reddit
=====

Stop children using smartphones until they are 13, says French report
Children should be banned from most social media until 18 amid attempts to 'monetise' them, says Macron-commissioned study

Reddit link

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1cgzxso/stop_children_using_smartphones_until_they_are_13/
Article Link

Stop children using smartphones until they are 13, says French report

Children should be banned from most social media until 18 amid attempts to ‘monetise’ them, says Macron-commissioned study

www.theguardian.com

Problem is all these apps are free so we are all the product in the end

Ernest · Apr 30, 2024

Anecdotal, but a friend of mine and his wife (friend is doctor, his wife a surgeon) won't let their 15 year old have a cell-phone.
She is the only person in her class who doesn't have one, and here's kicker... she doesn't fucking care!
Though I should point out that she's insanely wise for her age, 15 going on 35.

A modest proposal: No smartphones for kids

SmackDaddy

LGHT_TRSN

Smartphone and Internet Addiction - HelpGuide.org

Palette Swap

Macam

Smartphone and Internet Addiction - HelpGuide.org

ArrogantBastard

Macam

ArrogantBastard

LGHT_TRSN

Smartphone Addiction and Associated Health Outcomes in Adult Populations: A Systematic Review

The mediating role of loneliness in the relationship between smartphone addiction and subjective well-being - Scientific Reports

Calamari41

Rosebud

Two Pieces

Macam

ArrogantBastard

Rosebud

Two Pieces

Calamari41

LGHT_TRSN

ArrogantBastard

Rosebud

Two Pieces

Macam

ArrogantBastard

Macam

ArrogantBastard

Messofanego

Entropic

RPGam3r

SchrodingersDog

Froli

Stop children using smartphones until they are 13, says French report

Hollywood Duo

Stop children using smartphones until they are 13, says French report

Ernest