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Vexii

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,386
UK
Let me first preface this by saying that this idea is radical. It's probably unworkable, utopian and completely batshit stupid, but it's also something to think about.

This idea comes off of the back of the recent harrassment experienced by Twitch streamer "FerociouslySteph", in which Steph stated that Voice Chat (VC) is a distinct disadvantage at the top levels of play in competetive gaming because society is full of shitheads who can't just let gamers play games without targeting protected characteristics (my words, not theirs). A woman playing a competetive game at the top tiers of play will forever be at a disadvantage in VC purely because all the cis-white gamerbros around her will use her sex or gender to belittle her as soon as they possibly can, as speaking up in VC immediately exposes her identity. Someone fighting the psychological assault of their own team will never perform as well as their co-ordinated opponents. And so most women just don't bother with VC. It isn't designed for them.

A lot of people claim that if that's the problem, then women could just mute VC. Yes, what a great argument. To prove that there isn't a problem after all. What a fantastic way to tell women to just shut up and stay quiet like the good little servants they were born to be! But more importantly if that's the "solution" then surely VC isn't important and therefore arguing in protection of it is just moot? If it's unimportant enough that some people should "just mute" and supposedly not matter then it's unimportant enough for it to be removed entirely.

It's a stupid rebuttal. I hope we're all clear on that?

And then someone in the comments to the article above posted about how we need to push usage of voice chat harder:
Honestly, if anything, we need to push usage of voice chat harder. Women play games. A lot of women play games. So do LGBTQ+ people, and people with "non-standard voices". And the fact is, by sheer numbers, the stable, non-assholeish people outnumber the manbaby rage children by a pretty huge margin, and yet we have more or less completed ceded the field to them uncontested.

Lots of women end up opting out of VOIP because they are afraid of being harassed, and that is a perfectly valid fear, but the end result is that by opting out in large numbers, women in games even less visible. And that lack of female voices makes women seem like even more of a minority then they factually are, to such an extent that when a woman does actually speak up she has an even higher chancing of standing out as an "other", and is far more likely to be harassed because of it.

If 80% of a games player base can be assumed to be non-toxic, normal people, but they refuse to use VOIP just because they don't want to deal with 20% who are toxic, then all we've done is given said toxic players an echo-chamber, and helped to craft the illusion that they're the majority, that their behavior is the norm, and that they are at all resprestiative of "gaming culture".

The only way to deal with a vocal minority of toxic players is to drown them out with am even more vocal majority of diverse voices, and stop letting these absolute morons dictate the conversation as if they have any actual power outside of petulant whining.

And that got me thinking about this crazy idea.

Yes. Push voice chat harder. Normalise women playing games. Crush society's preconceived notions of sex, gender and misogyny, but do it to the extreme. If we live in a society where women are socially belittled in every way possible in ways that cis-white males could never understand, why not tip that balance in your digital online ecosystem where you have the ability to do so? Why not do it in a way that would cause so much furor and uproar that it would completely destabilise the zeitgeist and make gamerbros the ones who are scared to speak in VC?

Design most of your game so that it's gender agnostic and appeals to everyone, but then give every woman the power to kick harrassers from any match.

It's such a fucking insane idea and I LOVE it. Suddenly men are the ones who need to consider if joining VC is worth it. Suddenly men are the ones who know how it feels to be the targeted demographic, purely because a woman might hear their (generally) lower timbre and realise "holy shit, there's a man in this game and I'm the one with power." Society's issues are omnipresent and this won't suddenly fix that overnight, and in a lot of ways this could be seen as an insult to the social cause due to the "triviality" of gaming but you've got to break some eggs to make an omelette. And could you imagine the headlines that this would generate? Maybe, just maybe the reaction to doing this is so uproarious that it begins a new movement further empowering women in video games, normalising the landscape in such a way that video games are no longer a "boy's thing" (which they certainly still are, especially in competetive play), especially if you make a pointed effort to actively disrupt the societal dynamic.

Now duh this would cause a world of potentially impossible problems with no workable solutions. You're overpowering women for the sake of destabilising the imbalance between the sexes, but why shouldn't that happen in a high profile case at least once?

First of all how would you prevent abuse of the system? How would you stop some women from kicking whoever they want regardless of whether or not they've even spoken up? Frankly you probably can't, but isn't that the point? That women, who have spent their whole lives in the working sector fighting for equality and in many situations losing out to their equally (or often lesser) skilled male opponents, are now able to use that power however they want? It has a beautiful symmetry to it in a way.

Perhaps even more obviously how do you determine who is genuinely female? (and of course by this I am also including trans women. That just isn't up for debate.) Do you resort to legal documentation? How do you ethically justify that requirement just for a feature in your video game? But then do you just take them on their word? And then who's to stop men from gaming the system and trying to gain the privileges of women in your closed ecosystem? Again, the answer is probably that you can't. There's also the risk of accidentally misgendering someone either at the privilege granting level or during gameplay. This is a theoretical system that unfortunately relies on a lot of other theoretical systems working flawlessly in unison.

And even providing you make this system work in a game, how do you stop it from devolving into a complete cesspool ruled by one group who possess a protected characteristic at the expense of those who do not? Simply, you can't. Unless you just don't speak. Tipping the balance.

I think it's an incredibly powerful idea, and I'd love for it to come to fruition in some way in reality. But given the cost of development of video games and the risk of alienating your male demographic I highly doubt that any big company would implement a system like this in any meaningful way. Which to me just feels like yet another way that imbalance would win out over prioritising the interests of women in a given medium.

And of course this post focuses on gender (or arguably more noticeably, given the nature of VC, sex), but who's to say that you couldn't empower minorities in this same way? The only reason that I didn't delve deeply into that idea is because VC is more likely to reveal sex first, and race second especially with regional matchmaking where you're much more likely to encounter someone who is probably of your own race. One is no more important than the other though, please make no mistake.

This idea could spearhead something huge if a company big enough took it seriously, genuinely seriously enough and valued women more than the potential outcome of implementing a system that might doom their game and have nobody play it. I'd argue that the buzz it would create might mitigate that but I get it. I also get that some of you reading this might think that the idea itself is fucking stupid. It would never work so it isn't even worth contemplating. Some of you might disagree with the ideology, and I can guarantee this thread will appear on the twitters and forums of incels who are complaining about how "REEEEEra is trying to censor the whole world!!" and that Vexii is some SJW fuck spreading cancer to the masses.

But to all of that I'll simply quote: "we can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Design most of your game so that it's gender agnostic and appeals to everyone, but then give every woman the power to kick harrassers from any match.

If you just give people a blanket kick button then it's going to be abused by trolls. Especially if there is no way to verify the gender of the person using it so trolls will just say they're women regardless if it is true.

The solution is better moderation, just like any online platform. It's not easy and it takes a long time, but outside of broader culture changes I can't see things getting better unless companies take this issue seriously, because for the most part when people are reported they are often ignored.

A lot of people claim that if that's the problem, then women could just mute VC. Yes, what a great argument. To prove that there isn't a problem after all. What a fantastic way to tell women to just shut up and stay quiet like the good little servants they were born to be! But more importantly if that's the "solution" then surely VC isn't important and therefore arguing in protection of it is just moot? If it's unimportant enough that some people should "just mute" and supposedly not matter then it's unimportant enough for it to be removed entirely.

I'm not aware of any VC that is all or nothing. If a minority of the team in a team based game is being shitty then you can mute just those people.
 

Onix555

Member
Apr 23, 2019
3,381
UK
One of the many issues with this idea is its based around the simplistic idea all women are saintly and harbour no hatred for others based on predudice. I can tell you from experiance women can be just as rascist, homophobic and especially transphobic as men; this would do nothing but grow toxicity
 

Grue

Member
Sep 7, 2018
4,929
Someone fighting the psychological assault of their own team will never perform as well as their co-ordinated opponents. And so most women just don't bother with VC. It isn't designed for them.

I think it's just a poor turn of phrase, but voice chat is no less designed for women than men. What the users do with it, well that's on the gamers.

Suggesting you "design voice chat for women" by giving them insta-kick abilities?

Yeah I've added this thread to my Watch list.

giphy.gif
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
So...you want women to essentially doxx themselves to a game company to be able to kick people from voice chat? I don't think many are going to be willing to do that, especially trans women.
 

YellowBara

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,074
It's certainly a bold idea, though in the end it'll lead to even further stigma down the road because incel fuckers and other shitters in the community would have fuel to pretend they are oppressed in any way. I think there are better options than this, though I wish I could propose one.
 

Deleted member 21858

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
716
This is really dumb. On the internet anyone can use any identity they want, and trolls would definitely be the first ones to mark their gender as females to kick anyone.
 

Forsaken82

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,927
The simple start is stricter punishments on reported toxicity.

Why would anyone stop being toxic when the worst thing that happens is they have like a .01% chance of being banned for maybe a week? Ban more frequently, take away their ability to play the game long term. It will eventually stop, but until reporting and punishments are in a better place, this will always be a problem.
 

MrMegaPhoenix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
366
that's like saying the solution to stop racism in onlinegames is allowing non-white people to have a kick button.

you'd have to be extremely naive to think you wouldn't have racism between different non-white races or that you wouldn't have "edgy trolls" saying all sorts of offensive and hateful things to goad the white players into losing or getting so frustrated that they insult them back (and then get booted for it)

it's also extremely ignorant to think all women are nice and perfect angels who would never say anything mean ever. that's absurd. it also would achieve nothing but greatly increase the amount of negativity/hatred towards women and worst of all, they would have more "justification" for the negativity towards them since the gaming software literally does negatively impact their experience

What we actually need is societal improvement. The problem isn't "voice chat in online gaming", but rather how some people are just mean to others (not just based on gender or race, but accents or age or interests or any number of things). Thats the thing you need to solve and well, thats impossible.

Best thing to do is focus on improving your community guidelines, strong but fair moderation, clear education on what is suitable and what is not and no selective enforcement of the rules. Everyone should feel comfortable when talking on voice chat and if you're a poor player and they start swearing at you and calling you a waste of space in life or dropped on your head as a baby or "mean things", then an effective system to have those players both muted and punished is the ideal outcome. Gamers are equal, they should be treated as such

on a side note, what's to stop people putting female in their profile? all they need to do is claim they identify as female (with no proof) and they would be able to get away with acting just as spiteful and hateful towards women as before. You can't suggest something like "make them show proof" as you know thats crazy talk.
 

headspawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,619
I can't imagine a game that would be so good that people would want to jump in and pay for a game knowing random players can kick them for literally no reason at all.

Not sure how you figure that would be a good idea.
 

Gush

Member
Nov 17, 2017
2,096
This idea could spearhead something huge if a company big enough took it seriously, genuinely seriously enough and valued women more than the potential outcome of implementing a system that might doom their game and have nobody play it.

Well this will never happen.

I agree voice chat is awful and unapproachable for just about anyone who isn't a dude with a "boys will be boys" attitude, but I don't think this is even remotely viable in practice.
 

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,652
There is no way to stop guys from pretending to be girls in their profiles so that they could abuse such a system for themselves. Any way to potentially do so involves breaches of privacy that are not even 100% reliable. You can never know with absolute certainty that the person behind the keyboard or controller is who they say they are.

And as noted it's not like there aren't women out there that can be just as shit as their male counterparts, and would gladly embrace such weaponization.

I get the intent but ultimately this is a societal issue of men treating women like shit in all spaces of life (speaking generally before anyone flips out). Hell, a more practical route IMO would be forcing a voice filter that made it hard to distinguish people's voices by gender, and that has its own set of issues.
 

Praedyth

Member
Feb 25, 2020
6,527
Brazil
This is undoable. Even if it is, wouldn't it be better to put everyone on equal grounds? Everyone with the same power?
 

Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
"And the fact is, by sheer numbers, the stable, non-assholeish people outnumber the manbaby rage children by a pretty huge margin"
=> Fact, which ones. Because my personnal experience is there are bad behavior, starting with "just" insult to the extreme, everywhere. I had good experience sometimes, but it was definitively the exception.

The simple start is stricter punishments on reported toxicity.
Yep :
2FA => Pay actual human to handle it :
  • Good report => Warning => Then ban => Then full ban
  • Bad report => Warining for you => Then ban => Then full ban (to avoid troll)
It is really not that difficult. They just don't care at all.
Worst, they know this is a big part of the gamer base, so where is the money. So they actually care of doing anything.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
The original idea posed by the commenter of coordinating anti-harassment sessions on online games is a much better solution than what OP is proposing, actually. It's basically the kind of direct action you'd see from like a protest or sit-in, but in an online game instead of a physical space. That would cultivate a larger culture in the game of anti-harassment, especially if done regularly.
 

Agraavan

Member
Dec 20, 2019
29
When I read the title, I though you were gonna propose some sort of voice manipulation that makes everyone sound "female". Or maybe add some randomness and everyone will have a range of, I don't know, 5 types of voice they will be issued at the start of every round, so everyone can be a "male with a female voice", "male with male voice", "female with male voice" or "female with female voice".

That's novel, probably impossible, but I can see it having some positive effect, especially with the dude bros who will be ashamed of speaking with their "female voices".
 
OP
OP
Vexii

Vexii

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,386
UK
One of the many issues with this idea is its based around the simplistic idea all women are saintly and harbour no hatred for others based on predudice. I can tell you from experiance women can be just as rascist, homophobic and especially transphobic as men; this would do nothing but grow toxicity
I know for a fact that women aren't and to reduce my post to just that is very reductive of you. The idea behind it is to create an ecosystem that is enticing to all people but has an inherent flaw in the power structure, much like modern day society is against women today.

It's a flawed concept by nature, but certainly enough to get a ball roling in a theoretical space.
I think it's just a poor turn of phrase, but voice chat is no less designed for women than men. What the users do with it, well that's on the gamers.

Suggesting you "design voice chat for women" by giving them insta-kick abilities?

Yeah I've added this thread to my Watch list.

giphy.gif
Voice chat is inherently a shitty system in general, but if you introduce that system to everyone in which there is inherent bias against one sect of that population, you can make the argument that the system is much less suitable to a defined group of people.
So...you want women to essentially doxx themselves to a game company to be able to kick people from voice chat? I don't think many are going to be willing to do that, especially trans women.
"Essentially", no. Companies are beholden to privacy laws that face much higher risks unlike "anonymous" individuals who doxx others with malicious intent. There is a marked difference, though certainly it's still a shitty idea.
The simple start is stricter punishments on reported toxicity.

Why would anyone stop being toxic when the worst thing that happens is they have like a .01% chance of being banned for maybe a week? Ban more frequently, take away their ability to play the game long term. It will eventually stop, but until reporting and punishments are in a better place, this will always be a problem.
This is the big-brain idea that absolutely no-one seems to care about, but it lacks the pizzaz of basically taking an online community and making it the complete functional opposite of our current social structure.
that's like saying the solution to stop racism in onlinegames is allowing non-white people to have a kick button.

you'd have to be extremely naive to think you wouldn't have racism between different non-white races or that you wouldn't have "edgy trolls" saying all sorts of offensive and hateful things to goad the white players into losing or getting so frustrated that they insult them back (and then get booted for it)

it's also extremely ignorant to think all women are nice and perfect angels who would never say anything mean ever. that's absurd. it also would achieve nothing but greatly increase the amount of negativity/hatred towards women and worst of all, they would have more "justification" for the negativity towards them since the gaming software literally does negatively impact their experience

What we actually need is societal improvement. The problem isn't "voice chat in online gaming", but rather how some people are just mean to others (not just based on gender or race, but accents or age or interests or any number of things). Thats the thing you need to solve and well, thats impossible.

Best thing to do is focus on improving your community guidelines, strong but fair moderation, clear education on what is suitable and what is not and no selective enforcement of the rules. Everyone should feel comfortable when talking on voice chat and if you're a poor player and they start swearing at you and calling you a waste of space in life or dropped on your head as a baby or "mean things", then an effective system to have those players both muted and punished is the ideal outcome. Gamers are equal, they should be treated as such

on a side note, what's to stop people putting female in their profile? all they need to do is claim they identify as female (with no proof) and they would be able to get away with acting just as spiteful and hateful towards women as before. You can't suggest something like "make them show proof" as you know thats crazy talk.
I did say exactly that about minorities in the OP and also stated that it isn't designed to be a "great idea". It's more the idea that radical change that is designed to go against the grain has the opportunity to make a huge impact. I realise, and stated multiple times that the idea is not designed to "just work". It's a movement. It's a shaking down on the status quo. It's sending a message. It's to make people think outside of the box in ways that games just don't seem interested to do. I couldn't be more clear about that. It's about breaking down the inherent privilege in a controlled ecosystem and creating something that right now does not exist in modern society.

I said above but I will say it again, I know that women can be as awful and toxic as any other person and I'm not saying that they aren't. I'm just stating that through a digital medium we have the perfect opportunity to create spaces that are not only safer for women but are able to simulate a sandbox in which male domination is not only absent but suppressed. There is no other interactive medium through which we can even speculate about this kind of thing.

The answer will always be about stricter and more effective on-the-fly moderation that doesn't hinge on amplifying someone's characterstic bias and granting privileges to the discriminated parties, but that isn't what I'm trying to do here. I'm theorising on drastic, experimental change that doesn't mitigate bias but instead mirrors it. No cis-male will ever know what it feels like to fear something as simple as trying to speak out in a male dominated environment.
I can't imagine a game that would be so good that people would want to jump in and pay for a game knowing random players can kick them for literally no reason at all.

Not sure how you figure that would be a good idea.
Not a good idea - a radical one.

Was my mistake posting this idea on a forum that I assume is predominantly full of the very people that this system would work against? 😅 Because I have repeatedly stated that this isn't designed to be a GOOD idea or that women are somehow infallible and angelic beings.

Please, for the love of it all, read the post again. I went out of my way to make sure that I was communicating that I know the flaws.
When I read the title, I though you were gonna propose some sort of voice manipulation that makes everyone sound "female". Or maybe add some randomness and everyone will have a range of, I don't know, 5 types of voice they will be issued at the start of every round, so everyone can be a "male with a female voice", "male with male voice", "female with male voice" or "female with female voice".

That's novel, probably impossible, but I can see it having some positive effect, especially with the dude bros who will be ashamed of speaking with their "female voices".
I had actually considered something like this beforehand. Voice modulation I think has a big part to play in "anonymising" sex and gender in videogames, but is that what we really want?

And do we also really want dudebros receiving a randomised modulated female voice to see that as a punishment?
 
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gfbandito

One Winged Slayer
Member
Apr 5, 2020
731
Dang, anything I think of has its own set of problems.

We can record and share pics and videos with our consoles, let us record audio tracks as well? I know you can opt out of having your voice shared on recordings and broacasts on ps4 at least, so keep all that as is.

But does a function that records the last 5 minutes or so of audio regardless of if you opted out or not, specifically for a harassment report seem doable?

I also had a voice modulation idea that was pretty much make everyone sound like Barry White, but yeah.
 
OP
OP
Vexii

Vexii

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,386
UK
Dang, anything I think of has its own set of problems.

We can record and share pics and videos with our consoles, let us record audio tracks as well? I know you can opt out of having your voice shared on recordings and broacasts on ps4 at least, so keep all that as is.

But does a function that records the last 5 minutes or so of audio regardless of if you opted out or not, specifically for a harassment report seem doable?
I think if it was created to run on the server side with timestamps relative to the amount of time that has passed since a user joins a lobby or match? Or if the VC track of a recording is only accessible by moderation staff, but is still present in every recording regardless of whether or not you opt-out of voice sharing?

I would have thought that choosing to broadcast your voice is consent to have it recorded, but I assume that it goes much deeper than that legally.
 

Hexa

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,738
This is one of the dumbest of not the dumbest idea I've seen on Era and Era has no shortage of dumb ideas. Giving random people the power to kick whoever they want would kill MP for whatever game this would be implemented in.
 

MrMegaPhoenix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
366
I did say exactly that about minorities in the OP and also stated that it isn't designed to be a "great idea". It's more the idea that radical change that is designed to go against the grain has the opportunity to make a huge impact. I realise, and stated multiple times that the idea is not designed to "just work". It's a movement. It's a shaking down on the status pro. It's sending a message. It's to make people think outside of the box in ways that games just don't seem interested to do. I couldn't be more clear about that. It's about breaking down the inherent privilege in a controlled ecosystem and creating something that right now does not exist in modern society.

I said above but I will say it again, I know that women can be as awful and toxic as any other person and I'm not saying that they aren't. I'm just stating that through a digital medium we have the perfect opportunity to create spaces that are not only safer for women but are able to simulate a sandbox in which male domination is not only absent but suppressed. There is no other interactive medium through which we can even speculate about this kind of thing.

The answer will always be about stricter and more effective on-the-fly moderation that doesn't hinge on amplifying someone's characterstic bias and granting privileges to the discriminated parties, but that isn't what I'm trying to do here. I'm theorising on drastic, experimental change that doesn't mitigate bias but instead mirrors it. No cis-male will ever know what it feels like to fear something as simple as trying to speak out in a male dominated environment.
I think your heart's in the right place and the motivation is sound, but even as a radical crazy off the wall idea, it's just too impractical and wouldnt work and would just create more issues than it solves.

since it wouldnt solve any actual problems with how women are treated, a more "radical" approach is to just come up with a new system that removes voice chat altogether. i'm not strictly saying emoji type things, but that sort of system would do a ton more to make women actually feel safe. a cartoon dog waving at them or a guy dressed as a robot doing a silly dance (along with useful phrases like "wait" or "follow me" for team games) wouldnt lead to women feeling unsafe. But it would be a much bigger thing to cut out all voice chat in all games and just have systems like that.

you think of that and then you think of mirroring bias and you can quickly see which one is going to make women feel safer and which is going to very quickly lead to MANY more angry people (who weren't angry yet) who act with bitterness in voice chat. I feel all it's doing is suggesting an environment that is related to why Incels are a thing. It makes more guys feel that the women are "the problem" and they start feeling more negativity to them. That's a terrible path to go down, while anything that encourages everyone to remember "we're all just gamers" is a more ideal path to a "nice enough" online gaming ecosystem

i think it is fair to say there could be some radical hard idea that would do a lot to improve these things, but yeah, this idea sounds much more likely to create more hostility and hatred and it's hard to envision even a small amount of women being happy with the results this would lead to
 

Grue

Member
Sep 7, 2018
4,929
Please, for the love of it all, read the post again. I went out of my way to make sure that I was communicating that I know the flaws.


I read it. Nothing from any of the other replies suggest to me the others didn't read it either.


I did say exactly that about minorities in the OP and also stated that it isn't designed to be a "great idea". It's more the idea that radical change that is designed to go against the grain has the opportunity to make a huge impact. I realise, and stated multiple times that the idea is not designed to "just work". It's a movement. It's a shaking down on the status quo. It's sending a message. It's to make people think outside of the box in ways that games just don't seem interested to do. I couldn't be more clear about that. It's about breaking down the inherent privilege in a controlled ecosystem and creating something that right now does not exist in modern society.

Not a good idea - a radical one.

But to all of that I'll simply quote: "we can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."


Soo... Is this meant to work, or just start a conversation, or what?


Was my mistake posting this idea on a forum that I assume is predominantly full of the very people that this system would work against? 😅


If it's a conversation you're after, going there already isn't going to help you encourage people to engage.

Doubtless you'll get some genuine shit talk on this thread, but you haven't had any so far.
 

ShyMel

Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
3,483
I would not want to send my ID off to game companies (I assume this would not be a system level thing). Also if someone gets kicked because they were being awful, what is to stop them from sending a nasty message to the female player? Unless your plan would add the booted player automatically to the female player's blocked/ignore list?
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
How did we get to "give women a universal kick button" before "better reporting and moderation tools."

I feel like we really skipped quite a few obvious options here.
 

Ebnas

Member
May 15, 2019
366
The actual solution to getting rid of toxicity is to ban minors from using the game. Most of all dumb shit online comes from 12-16 year olds. Good luck finding anyone willing to cut that market out though.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
"Essentially", no. Companies are beholden to privacy laws that face much higher risks unlike "anonymous" individuals who doxx others with malicious intent. There is a marked difference, though certainly it's still a shitty idea.
Right but they are still essentially doxxing themselves by virtue of having to out themselves to get the ability to kick people, and then using the ability to kick people would then out themselves further to everyone in a match. Add on to that the fact that many trans women would have a different sounding voice than cis women and you've created a scenario in which trans women are going to be constantly and very obviously out themselves, opening themselves up for harassment that they otherwise would not face or discouraging them from using the ability you've granted them thus making the entire exercise pointless.

That's not even getting into the potential of cis women to use these tools to specifically target and harass trans women, something you can see in online spaces constantly in the status quo (ever heard of MumsNet?). Not to mention that unless this is implemented by the platform holders, people will then retaliate against the women kicking them through things like the console messaging system, Steam forums, etc. to harass them further after they've been exposed by using the kick function.


You're essentially proposing a scenario in which women are branded with a Scarlet letter in the game which just invites further harassment, to the point that most likely wouldn't even use the feature. And they have to give detailed and sensitive personal information to a random game company for the privilege of having that target painted on their backs.
 

karnage10

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,505
Portugal
personally i quit MP gaming due tot he toxicity and i'm a white male. In this very forum you had quite a bit of users telling me i was entitled and stupid for wishing for sony games in PC. You can see the "despair" these people had when horizon was announced for PC.
Even now when i said that i think it makes sense for persona games to be sold on PC somebody told it was "impossible". Despite that the company that makes persona 5 already released one of their games on PC.

I'd advocate, but i know it will probably not happen, is that when I report someone in a game someone would listen to it. If there was toxic behavior. The video game company would send the info of the player to a local police station. Then the police would fine the person.
If there wasn't toxic behavior the process would be the other way around.


Personally only if there is written law at either civil or penal code will i re-engage in MP. Your method sounds too light for me to return.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
I'd advocate, but i know it will probably not happen, is that when I report someone in a game someone would listen to it. If there was toxic behavior. The video game company would send the info of the player to a local police station. Then the police would fine the person.
lmao what the fuck am I reading
 

karnage10

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,505
Portugal
The actual solution to getting rid of toxicity is to ban minors from using the game. Most of all dumb shit online comes from 12-16 year olds. Good luck finding anyone willing to cut that market out though.
Nah. In Portugal I have played with many 20+ years old players that are toxic as shit.
In my internet ic an't see the age but I have played dozens of competitive overwacth and most of the playerbase is toxic as fuck.
Same with rocket league, CS Go, Dota2, Halo,etc.
 

Ebnas

Member
May 15, 2019
366
If people said the same shit online in person they can get fine and/or incarcerated for hate speech/assault.
If you don't believe come to Portugal and say to the face of a cop that he is a loser and that you fuck his mom. see how that goes.

Don't take it out on the rest of us just because your country is run like a police state.
 
OP
OP
Vexii

Vexii

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,386
UK
This is one of the dumbest of not the dumbest idea I've seen on Era and Era has no shortage of dumb ideas.
Dumber than perpetuating a cycle in which women are harrassed simply for speaking at all? Dumber than perpetuating a cycle in which women are doxxed for pointing out the inherent sexism in competetive gaming? This is a problem that has existed since the advent of consumer technology and nobody has come up with the answer yet, nor has a system been created that reverses the bias and makes a male player think "holy fuck, this really sucks."
I think your heart's in the right place and the motivation is sound, but even as a radical crazy off the wall idea, it's just too impractical and wouldnt work and would just create more issues than it solves.

since it wouldnt solve any actual problems with how women are treated, a more "radical" approach is to just come up with a new system that removes voice chat altogether. i'm not strictly saying emoji type things, but that sort of system would do a ton more to make women actually feel safe. a cartoon dog waving at them or a guy dressed as a robot doing a silly dance (along with useful phrases like "wait" or "follow me" for team games) wouldnt lead to women feeling unsafe. But it would be a much bigger thing to cut out all voice chat in all games and just have systems like that.

you think of that and then you think of mirroring bias and you can quickly see which one is going to make women feel safer and which is going to very quickly lead to MANY more angry people (who weren't angry yet) who act with bitterness in voice chat. I feel all it's doing is suggesting an environment that is related to why Incels are a thing. It makes more guys feel that the women are "the problem" and they start feeling more negativity to them. That's a terrible path to go down, while anything that encourages everyone to remember "we're all just gamers" is a more ideal path to a "nice enough" online gaming ecosystem

i think it is fair to say there could be some radical hard idea that would do a lot to improve these things, but yeah, this idea sounds much more likely to create more hostility and hatred and it's hard to envision even a small amount of women being happy with the results this would lead to
I really appreciate this take because I do completely agree with you. Canada just had convicted the world's first criminal of "incel terrorism" and I have no doubt in my mind that this isn't the last and this idea if done poorly could radicalise that mindset further, but at this point in time I'm getting tired of seeing people literally ruin the lives of women who either want to excel in a game that they enjoy, or choose to speak out against the inherent bias that they have to live with every day. It's disgusting, and part of me wants to see a system put in place that puts the shoe on the other foot so to speak.
I read it. Nothing from any of the other replies suggest to me the others didn't read it either.
Soo... Is this meant to work, or just start a conversation, or what?
If it's a conversation you're after, going there already isn't going to help you encourage people to engage.
Doubtless you'll get some genuine shit talk on this thread, but you haven't had any so far.
I said time and time again that this isn't an idea that I consider possible, not because I don't think it would work but because nobody would ever dare try it. And even if they did try it, there's no sure way of ensuring that you're only giving that privilege to the people who a) it is intended for, and b) won't abuse that power.

But if it could work? If some genius who isn't me comes up with a system like this that does accurately simulate privilege in a way that is commercially and critically viable? I think it could really show up just how awful the state of things are right now and spearhead some constructive change.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
If people said the same shit online in person they can get fine and/or incarcerated for hate speech/assault.
If you don't believe come to Portugal and say to the face of a cop that he is a loser and that you fuck his mom. see how that goes.
If calling someone a "loser" is considered either hate speech or assault in Portugal, I think I'm good where I am, thanks
 

Deleted member 26746

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,161
wouldn't a report system work... like make something like when people use cheats... that end up playing cheaters vs cheaters... but with harrassers... don't let them join games with women.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,472
Protip OP: If your goal is to start a conversation on solutions for this issue, don't make the thread about an impossible to implement system that no sane person would even attempt to implement that wouldn't actually achieve anything of value even if implemented. Like you shut down the conversation yourself when you propose a "solution" that you readily admit fails at literally every single step of the road
 

karnage10

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,505
Portugal
Don't take it out on the rest of us just because your country is run like a police state.
If calling someone a "loser" is considered either hate speech or assault in Portugal, I think I'm good where I am, thanks
If you truly believe in what you say then film yourself going to a local police station and say to the local police they are losers and that you are fucking their mom. Or what ever toxic shit is said now. I want to see how long does the police tolerate you shouting that.

Both of you are exactly the problem. If you don't see the problem in calling someone "hey loser i'm fucking your mom" then its on you. Specially over a video game. I don't know when being a normal person= police state but you do you. If having my rights=police state then yeah i'd take the police state.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean that you can berate me at will with whatever reason you think.


I issued the challenge above but i'm 100% you guys won't do it because you know exactly that the behavior above is unacceptable in person.
 

Grue

Member
Sep 7, 2018
4,929
Let me first preface this by saying that this idea is radical. It's probably unworkable, utopian and completely batshit stupid, but it's also something to think about.

Society's issues are omnipresent and this won't suddenly fix that overnight

This is a theoretical system that unfortunately relies on a lot of other theoretical systems working flawlessly in unison.

I think it's an incredibly powerful idea, and I'd love for it to come to fruition in some way in reality. But given the cost of development of video games and the risk of alienating your male demographic I highly doubt that any big company would implement a system like this in any meaningful way. Which to me just feels like yet another way that imbalance would win out over prioritising the interests of women in a given medium.

But to all of that I'll simply quote: "we can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

It's a flawed concept by nature, but certainly enough to get a ball roling in a theoretical space.

I did say exactly that about minorities in the OP and also stated that it isn't designed to be a "great idea". It's more the idea that radical change that is designed to go against the grain has the opportunity to make a huge impact. I realise, and stated multiple times that the idea is not designed to "just work". It's a movement. It's a shaking down on the status quo. It's sending a message. It's to make people think outside of the box in ways that games just don't seem interested to do. I couldn't be more clear about that. It's about breaking down the inherent privilege in a controlled ecosystem and creating something that right now does not exist in modern society.

The answer will always be about stricter and more effective on-the-fly moderation that doesn't hinge on amplifying someone's characterstic bias and granting privileges to the discriminated parties, but that isn't what I'm trying to do here. I'm theorising on drastic, experimental change that doesn't mitigate bias but instead mirrors it.

I have repeatedly stated that this isn't designed to be a GOOD idea or that women are somehow infallible and angelic beings.

Please, for the love of it all, read the post again. I went out of my way to make sure that I was communicating that I know the flaws.

I said time and time again that this isn't an idea that I consider possible, not because I don't think it would work but because nobody would ever dare try it. And even if they did try it, there's no sure way of ensuring that you're only giving that privilege to the people who a) it is intended for, and b) won't abuse that power.

But if it could work? If some genius who isn't me comes up with a system like this that does accurately simulate privilege in a way that is commercially and critically viable? I think it could really show up just how awful the state of things are right now and spearhead some constructive change.

OP can I just clarify if you think this could work, or couldn't?

The quotes above seem to be a combination of "It won't ever work, and moderation is clearly the real answer", to "it could work, but no-one has the balls", to "it could work but only in theory", to "I just want to get us all thinking".

If you're upset about replies tackling the practicality of the proposal, then clarifying this might be helpful.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,472
This "solution" is so far divorced from reality on so many levels that you might as well say the solution for toxicity is for everyone to just spontaneously stop being dicks
 

Deleted member 18021

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,000
The best solution I have is to delete matchmaking and go back to community servers. Allow that community to then moderate the server themselves. If I can do a little bit of vetting of a community, like I did in the Team Fortress 2 servers I used to play in, I'm more likely to actually use voice chat.
 

Camjo-Z

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,514
This was a lot of words to say "an eye for an eye, two wrongs make a right". Neither novel nor radical.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,227
Just tie everyone's real name to their account, make them provide verifiable personal information to open an account, and make it very easy to record video of abuse and easy to report. Not sure there is any other solution. Giving all women the power to ban any man at any time is just asinine, just like it would be for opposite to happen
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,440
I sometimes don't know if threads like these are made by bad faith actors to take screenshots and post off-site with 'look how crraaaaazy era is!'.

Because this idea is ridiculous and would be weaponized and abused instantly.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
If you truly believe in what you say then film yourself going to a local police station and say to the local police they are losers and that you are fucking their mom. Or what ever toxic shit is said now. I want to see how long does the police tolerate you shouting that.

Both of you are exactly the problem. If you don't see the problem in calling someone "hey loser i'm fucking your mom" then its on you. Specially over a video game. I don't know when being a normal person= police state but you do you. If having my rights=police state then yeah i'd take the police state.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean that you can berate me at will with whatever reason you think.


I issued the challenge above but i'm 100% you guys won't do it because you know exactly that the behavior above is unacceptable in person.
You're confusing me condoning the behavior with me not thinking it should be literally illegal.

Obviously I'm not going to go cuss someone out in person to win an internet argument, I'm not an asshole. However were I to do that I neither should nor would be arrested because being mean to someone isn't a crime.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,767
Toronto, ON
I said time and time again that this isn't an idea that I consider possible, not because I don't think it would work but because nobody would ever dare try it. And even if they did try it, there's no sure way of ensuring that you're only giving that privilege to the people who a) it is intended for, and b) won't abuse that power.

But if it could work? If some genius who isn't me comes up with a system like this that does accurately simulate privilege in a way that is commercially and critically viable? I think it could really show up just how awful the state of things are right now and spearhead some constructive change.

It isn't possible and could never work for countless reasons, but also what if it were possible...but it isn't...but what if it were? I'm a little confused about what sort of conversation you want to have.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,472
Just tie everyone's real name to their account, make them provide verifiable personal information to open an account, and make it very easy to record video of abuse and easy to report. Not sure there is any other solution. Giving all women the power to ban any man at any time is just asinine
The idea that Removing anonymity solves internet toxicity is wrong though and we already know it's wrong because twitter and facebook have tons of toxic idiots posting under their real names. And it ignores that anonymity can provide benefits to some people as well
 

Agraavan

Member
Dec 20, 2019
29
I had actually considered something like this beforehand. Voice modulation I think has a big part to play in "anonymising" sex and gender in videogames, but is that what we really want?

And do we also really want dudebros receiving a randomised modulated female voice to see that as a punishment?
I don't think its a punishment per se, only that they will see it as a punishment. It's no more punishment than being assigned a random avatar or a random red or blue sigil, unless you think less of yourself if you have a female voice (they will).

The thing is, as you say, anonymising people so that everyone can be anyone, making no sense antagonize someone for characteristics that aren't even their on (and if a dude bro gets ostracized because he was assigned a female voice, even better, maybe he will learn something from it).
 
OP
OP
Vexii

Vexii

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,386
UK
I would not want to send my ID off to game companies (I assume this would not be a system level thing). Also if someone gets kicked because they were being awful, what is to stop them from sending a nasty message to the female player? Unless your plan would add the booted player automatically to the female player's blocked/ignore list?
I doubt that a single game that did this would not have system level access to automatically block someone, at least not if that functionality isn't built into an API within the OS software which I'd be sure the PS4 or Xbox One don't currently have.

That said, individuals can opt to turn off messages from people outside of their friends list, so that would be on them at least within the confines of this idea. It's how I've saved my sanity when I'm not performing my best in an OverWatch comp match, as sad as it is that I've had to do that.
How did we get to "give women a universal kick button" before "better reporting and moderation tools."

I feel like we really skipped quite a few obvious options here.
VC has existed for over a decade and this is still an issue, so honestly I'd say that my idea is just as theoretical as decent reporting tools at this point in time lmao
Right but they are still essentially doxxing themselves by virtue of having to out themselves to get the ability to kick people, and then using the ability to kick people would then out themselves further to everyone in a match. Add on to that the fact that many trans women would have a different sounding voice than cis women and you've created a scenario in which trans women are going to be constantly and very obviously out themselves, opening themselves up for harassment that they otherwise would not face or discouraging them from using the ability you've granted them thus making the entire exercise pointless.

That's not even getting into the potential of cis women to use these tools to specifically target and harass trans women, something you can see in online spaces constantly in the status quo (ever heard of MumsNet?). Not to mention that unless this is implemented by the platform holders, people will then retaliate against the women kicking them through things like the console messaging system, Steam forums, etc. to harass them further after they've been exposed by using the kick function.


You're essentially proposing a scenario in which women are branded with a Scarlet letter in the game which just invites further harassment, to the point that most likely wouldn't even use the feature. And they have to give detailed and sensitive personal information to a random game company for the privilege of having that target painted on their backs.
So in my head the difference between players is made obvious from the get-go. Players with the ability to kick others would potentially have a mark next to their name in the leaderboard for example, sort of how you'd sometimes see a crown or such next to a Host's name in the leaderboards of COD. In this case you aren't hiding the fact that you're female, because that's the whole point behind this idea in the first place. And that's exactly the same with trans-women, who may or may not choose to use VC but will still hold all of the privilege to kick if they feel harrassed. Sure, it's a scarlet letter, but if buddy boy doesn't like it and kicks off? Kick him. If he tries to message (and you have messages open to strangers), ban him.

And in instances where a marked player tries to kick a marked player, the usual moderation applies and needs to be independently reviewed for infractious behaviour. You keep this process invisible to the players just as it already is. At least this way a trans-woman is not visibly exposed to harrassing behaviour. This doesn't solve the issue with trans-women being harrassed verbally though. Frankly I don't know what would. No, it isn't a perfect system.
 

MrMegaPhoenix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
366
I really appreciate this take because I do completely agree with you. Canada just had convicted the world's first criminal of "incel terrorism" and I have no doubt in my mind that this isn't the last and this idea if done poorly could radicalise that mindset further, but at this point in time I'm getting tired of seeing people literally ruin the lives of women who either want to excel in a game that they enjoy, or choose to speak out against the inherent bias that they have to live with every day. It's disgusting, and part of me wants to see a system put in place that puts the shoe on the other foot so to speak.
yeah. i dont think more women should continually being upset/bothered by just trying to enjoy themselves either, but "more angry guys" seems like it's going to do exactly that. Cos let's say your idea was implimented....wouldnt these guys immediately go to twitter, reddit, etc and complain about women? which quickly leads them to having a lot of guys agreeing with them for being in the same boat?

its bad, but yeah, a "see how you feel" approach is either going to make things worse or continue the same problem with both genders. That's my biggest concern since you don't want to make anything worse. But if memory serves, things like splatoon, animal crossing and the sims are popular with women and all have a system that is less "voice chat" and more using emotes to communicate. I think that is something more worth looking into.

and assuming we are both guys, in your situation, i could still say you suck and fail at life and that would have nothing to do with your suggestion and isn't harsh enough to lead to moderations. I feel thats why we wont really have an ideal outcome with voice chat, but if my only options was "angry face" or "sad face" or "happy face", then that reduces the ability to insult and hurt people's feelings. It shouldn't lead to imbalance or hatred towards different groups of people either. You just smile if you are happy, "kick the dirt" if you are grumpy at losing, etc. I don't speak for women, but i presume that type of scenario sounds more ideal than "anything that means more sexist idiots" (besides the harsher moderation always mentioned)

on a personal note, i do want voice chat and i dont care what the gender of the person is providing they don't have loud music playing on their mic and they can play online (excluding specific paid tournament situations) where someone on their team is terrible and they don't mind that. If we have voice chat, i just want everyone to be able to get along (and hear people), i wouldnt be into seeing any group be treated disequal or give more power to one over the other.
 
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