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A Reading of Ice and Fire: Now It Begins

iksenpets

iksenpets

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Oct 26, 2017
6,496
Dallas, TX
BossAttack said:
Didn't Aerys insure that Elia and her children remained in King's Landing during the rebellion as a way to vouch safe that Dorne would stay loyal during the Rebellion?
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I don't know if it's ever explicitly stated, but it sure reads like Elia was being used as a hostage to force Dorne to back Aerys. What Elia thought of that, if Rhaegar had explained everything and she for some reason was totally into his whole messianic fucking of other ladies, or if she was waiting for Doran to storm the gates and save her from this nightmare, I'm not sure we'll ever know. The fact that they always seem to emphasize Elia's sickliness makes me think Rhaegar was never really satisfied with her, which I would think wouldn't lead to a happy Elia, but again, who knows.
 
Ortix

Ortix

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Oct 27, 2017
1,438
Gigglepoo said:
This conversation is ultimately about why Lyanna professed distaste about Robert's infidelity but ran off with a married man. I suggested Rhaegar didn't really disgrace Elia like it appeared, rather she was alright with Rhaeger trying to find a woman to birth the third head of the dragon with. If we assume Rhaegar was also a dirtbag, why would Lyanna go with him? She was like Arya, not Sansa, so I don't think "A hot prince swept her off her feet" would make sense.
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Lyanna professed a distaste for a potential husband sleeping around with women other than her, ie cheating on her. There is nothing at all suggesting that she viewed Rhaegar abandoning his arranged match for his true love - her - in a similar way. She was a 16 year old girl, it's quite possible she decided their love was more important than Rhaegar's marriage.

And this is all assuming Lyanna was indeed a completely willing actor in their disappearance, and wasn't coerced. The show seems to indicate this, but the show throws all nuance overboard on a regular basis.
 

John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
Gigglepoo said:
One of many reasons why there are theories that there was more to the relationship than just a simple fling. Ned thinks that Rhaegar most likely didn't visit brothels, which hints that he didn't sleep around like Bob and Brandan. We never hear about Elia being upset which points toward her consent. Hell, Dorne is still pro-Targ and Pro-Rhaegar years after the rebellion. Everyone involved seemed ok with this pairing so this isn't just a young girl running off with a married man.
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You're making a lot of asusmptions here and I've tried to follow the conversation as best I could. You said Elia was "okay" with Rhaegar running off with Elia. But remember that women don't have any agency. If she was unhappy, how was she supposed to stop the crown prince from running off with another woman? Dorne isn't pro-Rhaegar, they are pro-Aegon, who they believe is a Dornish prince. It is a young girl running off with a married man and everyone wasn't okay with it. All we know of Elia was that she was a "frail" woman. I find there is a lot of talk in the fandom solely based around pushing Elia aside to make R+ L a perfect love story where everyone is happy and no one gets hurt. But that isn't ASOIAF
 
E.T.

E.T.

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Oct 25, 2017
4,035
Why are discussions hidden behind spoiler tags?
Should it not all be open season in regards to discussion as long as the chapters discussed are those assigned for the week and what ever came before?
 
Number45

Number45

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Oct 25, 2017
5,038
E.T. said:
Why are discussions hidden behind spoiler tags?
Should it not all be open season in regards to discussion as long as the chapters discussed are those assigned for the week and what ever came before?
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Most of the recent discussion has strayed from the chapters that have been read.
 
Number45

Number45

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Oct 25, 2017
5,038
Yeah, it sprang up out of the early chapters but people are referencing other parts of the books in the discussion so it makes sense for people that haven't read them at all yet.
 
flare

flare

▲ Legend ▲
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Oct 25, 2017
1,306
That discussion would probably be more ideal for the ASoIaF thread anyway.
 

Deleted member 2317

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All of the spoiler tags make it quite annoying and strange to read, but also, it's hilarious seeing tags for such old material :lol
 
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Lunar Wolf

Lunar Wolf

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Nov 6, 2017
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Yeah, let's try to leave the big arguments for the other thread, guys.

This is more to discuss the book chapters not do big debates or at least not this frequently. It's kind of taking over the thread.
 
Ortix

Ortix

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Oct 27, 2017
1,438
Since this thread needs an activity boost.
What were your favourite quotes so far? (from the first 5 chapters)

The obvious one is of course Eddard's

Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"
"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him.
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And the one that defines Eddard as a character:

"The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you can not bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die."
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I also enjoyed Waymar Royce at the end of the prologue, facing an Other.

Ser Waymar met him bravely. "Dance with me then."
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From the very start, he was characterised as a stupid highborn brat - because of the POV being very subjective, a recurring theme throughout the series - and while he undoubtedly was arrogant, he kept thinking very rationally throughout. When the time came, his 2 companions panicked (/hid in a tree) while he stood his ground alone.
 
Orso

Orso

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Oct 28, 2017
631
I've tried to picture it in my head but I just can't understand
Tyrions jump down from the ledge he's sitting on. The way it's described makes it sound like he does some kind of metroid spinning ball jump, lands on his hands and the pushes himself to his feet.
Slick moves
 
caffe misto

caffe misto

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Oct 25, 2017
2,110
the electric city
DownInKingston said:
I've tried to picture it in my head but I just can't understand
Tyrions jump down from the ledge he's sitting on. The way it's described makes it sound like he does some kind of metroid spinning ball jump, lands on his hands and the pushes himself to his feet.
Slick moves
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I could swear I've read somewhere that Martin regretted including that, as it doesn't really fit with the character he came to be.
 
DarkChronic

DarkChronic

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Oct 27, 2017
5,037
DownInKingston said:
I've tried to picture it in my head but I just can't understand
Tyrions jump down from the ledge he's sitting on. The way it's described makes it sound like he does some kind of metroid spinning ball jump, lands on his hands and the pushes himself to his feet.
Slick moves
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Yeah one of the strangest moments in the book for sure lol. I remember reading that for the first time and just sitting there like ??????
 
Persephone

Persephone

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Oct 25, 2017
4,436
DownInKingston said:
I've tried to picture it in my head but I just can't understand
Tyrions jump down from the ledge he's sitting on. The way it's described makes it sound like he does some kind of metroid spinning ball jump, lands on his hands and the pushes himself to his feet.
Slick moves
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Supposedly Martin got a letter from a fan with dwarfism after AGOT explaining the limitations of his condition and Martin strove to incorporate that into his writing which is why the latter books are constantly going on about Tyrion's cramping legs etc. ADWD also vaguely explains the somersaulting by saying (ADWD Spoilers) his disappeared uncle Gerion taught him tumbling tricks when he was little.
 
DonaldKimball

DonaldKimball

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Oct 28, 2017
1,413
ACOK Dany spoilers:
So what did Pyat Pree/the undying want from Dany? This was completely different from the show plot line. Did she hallucinate all the visions because of the shade of the evening? The show should have copied this because some of the visions gave me goosebumps.

Like the red wedding foreshadowing
 
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Persephone

Persephone

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Oct 25, 2017
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vogelkacke said:
ACOC Dany spoilers:
So what did Pyat Pree/the undying want from Dany? This was completely different from the show plot line. Did she hallucinate all the visions because of the shade of the evening? The show should have copied this because some of the visions gave me goosebumps.

Like the red wedding foreshadowing
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I know they wanted to give Dany more screentime in s2 than she had in ACOK but they really did her arc a disservice by cramming it full of stupid pointless filler. They also cut one of my favourite chapters from the entire series, aka Vaes Tolorro. Also "let's have all of Dany's female friends die or turn evil, because feminism". I know they had to write off Irri because the actress's visa had expired iirc, but then wouldn't it make more sense to just (ACOK spoilers) switch Doreah and Irri's roles, so that Irri is the one who dies in the Red Waste, then have Doreah continue to serve Dany faithfully? Granted, the racial implications of that might have been a bit dubious, but it would be better than just killing them both (and have them be at odds beforehand too because women are so catty amirite).
 
Punished Goku

Punished Goku

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Oct 25, 2017
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Is dorne suppose to be the mid-east?
In this clip for instance I see the architecture has a lot of middle eastern design.
 
Persephone

Persephone

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Punished Goku said:
Is dorne suppose to be the mid-east?
In this clip for instance I see the architecture has a lot of middle eastern design.
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In the case of Dorne, yes, Wales was definitely an influence, for all the reasons you cite. But there's also some distinctly unWelsh elements down there. South of the wall of mountains you have a hot, dry country more like Spain or Palestine than the cool green valleys of Wales, with most of the settlements along the seacoast and in few great river basins. And you also have the flavor given the culture by the great Rhoynar influx led by Nymeria. I suppose the closest real life equivilent to that would be the Moorish influence in parts of Spain. So you could say Dorne is Wales mixed with Spain and Palestine with some entirely imaginary influences mixed in. Or you could just say it's Dorne....
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So Spake Martin
 
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Lunar Wolf

Lunar Wolf

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Nov 6, 2017
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vogelkacke said:
ACOC Dany spoilers:
So what did Pyat Pree/the undying want from Dany? This was completely different from the show plot line. Did she hallucinate all the visions because of the shade of the evening? The show should have copied this because some of the visions gave me goosebumps.

Like the red wedding foreshadowing
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ACOK:

Yes. They're prophetic visions. Every line and image there means something for the future and past. It's basically GRRM showing the outline for the series and where everything is going to go if you can decipher it. The show didn't do it likely because they weren't sure that they were going to use all these
Number45 said:
I'm not sure I recall any of Wales (!) in the show version of Dorne or the Dornish.
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The Welsh influence is the history of the region and the guerilla fighting tactics.
 
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Lunar Wolf

Lunar Wolf

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Prologue, Bran I, Catelyn I, Daenerys I, Eddard I, Jon I, Catelyn II, Arya I, Bran II, Tyrion I can now be talked about unspoiled.

The next set of chapters to read are Jon II, Daenerys II, Eddard II, Tyrion II, Catelyn III by June 16th.
 
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Lunar Wolf

Lunar Wolf

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I wish the Tommen v Bran fights and Joffrey v Robb interaction was left on the show.

I know the pilot originally had Bran v Tommen filmed.
 
RDreamer

RDreamer

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Oct 25, 2017
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Bran II is pretty cool knowing he'll become some sort of omniscient god-like character later.

Jon's portrayal seems very different from the show, but that's probably the aging up doing a lot.
 
Lady Catherine de Bourgh

Lady Catherine de Bourgh

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Love reading about Jon giving Needle to Arya. It shows that he truly sees her and appreciates her for who she is. Not comparing her to Sansa or the social role that she was born into.

For me these kind of scenes are often more touching and loving than any romantic moments. As romance often can have a sense of wanting/needing something from the other person (I can only be happy if I'm with them).
 
DonaldKimball

DonaldKimball

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Oct 28, 2017
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ASOS early spoilers
Damn I feel bad for Tyrion. Feels like its much worse for him here than it was in the show.

I only read up until this book a few years ago and it really starts to diverge hard from the show from this point.
 
Persephone

Persephone

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Oct 25, 2017
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RDreamer said:
He's downing a ton of alcohol and grinning, smiling, laughing and boasting. Maybe I'm comparing late show Jon too much but he was always kind of dour in a way I couldn't picture this.
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I mean he gets more serious as his situation does but yeah Jon has a sense of humour he lacks in the show. He's sassy as fuck too. There are some absolute zingers in his ADWD narration.
 
Walter White Walker

Walter White Walker

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Tyrion I and Jon II spoilers (can't make regular spoiler title thing right now for some reason)
Pretty obvious straight away that George R.R. Martin f'ed up with Tyrion spinning off the balcony/whatever early in the series. He was already saying early on things after that things hurt and he's not agile. He's explaining in both Tyrion I and Jon II that he's not spry like at all.
 
BossAttack

BossAttack

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Oct 27, 2017
43,004
I'm moving on to ACOK and man I forget how much the prologue makes you think Stannis is a dick. It's only later you realize he was doing everything he could to prevent Cressen from dying. Still, Stannis should've just commanded him to drop the cup and prevent him from carrying out the foolish act. But, that wouldn't be Stannis' way.
 
Madison

Madison

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Oct 27, 2017
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I gotta finish Tyrion I

But yeah....I like how Bran II describes him being followed by the ravens, its really interesting.

Arya I is one of those clear chapters that shows how much 60s feminism inspired her character. I really like her relationship with Jon, the whole "both looked the most Stark" is interesting but it makes R + L = J weaker. I really wish that George didnt take Jon in that direction.

Catelyn II has a very interesting part right at the end. Luwin suggests that Jon should go into the Nights Watch even though Benjen was mostly against it. Why would Luwin push for that? The chapter gives Cat more agency when comparing the scene to the books. Making the pressure to go to Kings Landing come from Cat makes her more savvy than just going "please stay Ned" like she did on the show.

Jon I is such a good introduction to the character. I think that most readers care so much about Jon because of how well hes built up during all of A Game of Thrones (also because most readers seem to be cishet white guys).
 
deimosmasque

deimosmasque

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Fork said:
I gotta finish Tyrion I

But yeah....I like how Bran II describes him being followed by the ravens, its really interesting.

Arya I is one of those clear chapters that shows how much 60s feminism inspired her character. I really like her relationship with Jon, the whole "both looked the most Stark" is interesting but it makes R + L = J weaker. I really wish that George didnt take Jon in that direction.

Catelyn II has a very interesting part right at the end. Luwin suggests that Jon should go into the Nights Watch even though Benjen was mostly against it. Why would Luwin push for that? The chapter gives Cat more agency when comparing the scene to the books. Making the pressure to go to Kings Landing come from Cat makes her more savvy than just going "please stay Ned" like she did on the show.

Jon I is such a good introduction to the character. I think that most readers care so much about Jon because of how well hes built up during all of A Game of Thrones (also because most readers seem to be cishet white guys).
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actually R+L=J makes more sense with John looking more Stark then Ned's children. A product of generations of incest is going to be full of Resessive genes that would easily beaten out by the the more Dominate genes that Lyanna more than likely possess.
 
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Lunar Wolf

Lunar Wolf

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Fork said:
I gotta finish Tyrion I

But yeah....I like how Bran II describes him being followed by the ravens, its really interesting.

Arya I is one of those clear chapters that shows how much 60s feminism inspired her character. I really like her relationship with Jon, the whole "both looked the most Stark" is interesting but it makes R + L = J weaker. I really wish that George didnt take Jon in that direction.

Catelyn II has a very interesting part right at the end. Luwin suggests that Jon should go into the Nights Watch even though Benjen was mostly against it. Why would Luwin push for that? The chapter gives Cat more agency when comparing the scene to the books. Making the pressure to go to Kings Landing come from Cat makes her more savvy than just going "please stay Ned" like she did on the show.

Jon I is such a good introduction to the character. I think that most readers care so much about Jon because of how well hes built up during all of A Game of Thrones (also because most readers seem to be cishet white guys).
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The way that I see it, Jon is Lyanna Stark's son not Rhaegar Targaryen's son. I think Ned sees Jon the same way.
 
Tophat Jones

Tophat Jones

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Man Storm of Swords stoke all of ACOK's thunder with the way the books are ranked/regarded.

It's SO good.
 
Meows

Meows

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Oct 28, 2017
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Completely forgot to read these this week, got caught up in the E3 hype and work. Picked up the book and read through them in the last hour. I want to keep reading but this is a pretty nice pace we have going on currently. Also, rewatched The Winds of Winter with my cousin last night and forgot what a great episode it was, had to change my avatar to a moment from that.

Pretty sure that in one hour, this won't even need to be in spoilers anymore lol. Oh well. Jon is a sweet dude, love the interactions he has with Arya and Robb. The scene with him and Catelyn was chilling, for sure, "it should have been you." It is fine seeing all the pieces laid out for Jon being Lyanna's son, like when Ned remembers her promise to him while he is talking to Robert and his uncontrollable hatred toward the Targaryens. Or even Tyrion hinting a connection that Jon may have with dragons.

Likewise, Daenerys has a chilling vision of her brother being murdered by fire and a dragon greeting her. You have to feel terrible for her. Viserys is an abusive asshole on the show but he comes off even worse here, especially with the insight of Dany and just how terrified she is of him. She's more terrified of him than the towering Khal she just wed and has to sleep with.

As much as I can't stand how Catelyn treats Jon, you have to admit that she is a devoted mother to her children and would do anything for them. Staying by Bran's side all that time and going slightly mad in the process, preparing to ride out to King's Landing the second she thinks her daughters are in danger, etc.
 
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Lunar Wolf

Lunar Wolf

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These chapters can now be talked about without spoilers:

Prologue, Bran I, Catelyn I, Daenerys I, Eddard I, Jon I, Catelyn II, Arya I, Bran II, Tyrion I, Jon II, Daenerys II, Eddard II, Tyrion II, Catelyn III

Week 3 is done.

These are the next set of chapters for week 4:

Sansa I, Eddard III, Bran III, Catelyn IV, Jon III

Should be read by June 23rd.
 
GK86

GK86

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Oct 25, 2017
18,768
Im digging the book so far. I'm trying my best not to jump too ahead, but I'm already on chapter 18.
 
AzorAhai

AzorAhai

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Oct 29, 2017
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Exams done. I'm going to read a lot this summer.

Cat II

Cat does want Ned to be the hand, she seems more calculating than in the show.

Arya 1

Excellent introduction of Arya.

Bran II

The things I do for love. Still amazing. The moment that starts the actual plot.

Tyrion I

Excellent !! No wonder the show adapted most of it, it's a golden introduction to the character.

Jon II

Damn Catelyn is evil. It is understandable that she doesn't like what Jon is supposed to symbolize, but the way she treats him is beyond awful. Almost psychological harassment at this point. I didn't remember it was this bad.
 
Punished Goku

Punished Goku

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Oct 25, 2017
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If Ned had died during Robert's rebellion, then would Benjen Stark marry Catelyn? Like Ned did, when Brandon died? because if that were to be the case then would Robb Stark still be the heir to Winterfell? I still feel like if Ned lost the fight against Arthur Dayne, Arthur maybe would have spared him.
 
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Lunar Wolf

Lunar Wolf

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Punished Goku said:
If Ned had died during Robert's rebellion, then would Benjen Stark marry Catelyn? Like Ned did, when Brandon died? because if that were to be the case then would Robb Stark still be the heir to Winterfell? I still feel like if Ned lost the fight against Arthur Dayne, Arthur maybe would have spared him.
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Baby Robb Stark would inherit and Benjen wouldn't join the Night's Watch and stick around to rule for Robb. It's plausible that he'd marry Catelyn too. She's still a good catch. She's fertile, beautiful, young and the daughter of a Lord Paramount.

Her being "used" is the only negative of marrying her but Benjen would suck it up if it bothered him.
 
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