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A Reading of Ice and Fire: Now It Begins
- Thread starter Lunar Wolf
- Start date
Ice is still my favourite sword in the show, it really is massive. I think they did it justice.
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Never saw an episode of the show, cuz I had a feeling the book series would end up being better anyway. The From Software rumors finally pushed me to order the first book, so I might as well participate in this thread!
I might read through the books more quickly than the schedule in the OP, but I'll be sure to adhere to the spoiler rules.
I might read through the books more quickly than the schedule in the OP, but I'll be sure to adhere to the spoiler rules.
I'm going to read fire and blood and reread dunk and egg before I start. I find the fake history stuff quite hard going unless its presented in the narrative or in something like the world of ice and fire. But I feel an obligation to at least read it once.
Just be careful. Like the spoiler rules say, spoilers from the show are fair game in this thread without the need of spoiler tags. While a lot of things are different between the show and the books, there are also a lot of things that aren't.
If you don't care then that's totally fair. I just wanted to make sure you were aware.
... I swear I didn't rhyme that on purpose.
Ooooooh, I didn't read that closely. Uhhh, I'll stay away then lol. Thanks for the heads up.><
There's the ASOIAF OT if you want to post your book thoughts, but naturally there are unmarked book spoilers there... so, likewise: be careful.
Just finished Daenerys III, and yeah... making Dany 13 was a mistake. Her chapters in AGOT are seriously uncomfortable to read.
Nah, it fits the world and story. The same with Jon Snow being 14 and Robb just a shy older.
...Nah, it was still a mistake, especially in the hindsight of no five year gap. Even Martin has said he regrets it. ASOIAF basically operates on JRPG/anime age rules as-is.
Also, while he's said Westeros' age of majority is 16, he has an anachronistic number of child brides. While they existed historically, European noblewomen usually married in their later teens, because — as Martin notes, but doesn't have his universe heed — child brides have much higher rates of death in childbirth.
ASOIAF also has a disproportionate number of grown women dying in childbirth, by the by, so Martin's a mess all around on this (see: the Dead Ladies Club). Especially with the maesters' anachronistically advanced medical knowledge, particularly with regard to antibiotics.
In case you missed it, Dunk and Egg are included in this reading project, probably between 2nd and 3rd, and 3rd and 4th book, just so you know.
Reading Bran I made me, as a show-only, surprised to remember the focus and overall importance of the Direwolves. I remember this scene the show but the book really sets them up to be super monsters the size of grown stags...and not just dogs lol
Been looking to start a re-read soon. With flights to and from E3, I'll be doing some catch-up reading to take part in the discussions. :)
I started reading the series for the first time about a month ago. I'm really loving it so far. I'm on Clash of Kings right now so I'll be ahead of the reading schedule but I look forward to discussing the chapters each week with you guys. I'm only on book 2 but I can already tell this has the potential to be my favorite book series of all time.
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Post your reactions in this or the other thread though. We'd all be interested to see your thoughts.
I just choose to have them be older in my headcanon as I read.
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Planetos' years are different.
All the kids are 2 years older as a result.
Biologically:
Jon and Robb start at 16
Dany starts at 15
Sansa starts at 13
Arya starts at 11
Bran starts at 9
That's the best way to headcanon these things
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On the child bride stuff:
That's because Martin's books are based more on history fiction than actual history which tends to dramatize things and emphasize the dark more.
So like Margaeret Beaufort(Henry Tudor's Mother) giving birth at 13 isn't the norm, it's an extremely famous example.
And so you have Daenerys married at 13 and giving birth at 14 as a result.
My feeling is that there are so many young characters because it reinforces the point he's trying to make. This romanticized feudalism we all have of knights and ladies and kings and queens is a nasty exploitative system of violence and sexual abuse all in the pursuit of power and upholding one's family name. Young boys are sent off to die in pointless wars, and young girls are sold off as sexual property to make deals. All these vague stories we have about these feudal eras get much more creepy when you remember how young some people in it were.
As for the medicine, who knows what's in those tomes at the citadel. Martin's world is post apocalyptic. Them having some anachronistic knowledge makes as much sense as the incredible ancient structures that are far beyond anything they can currently make. Everything about Westeros is like Medieval Europe, but cranked up a few notches. They also have magic talking crows that can deliver messages anywhere, so... some of this might be explained a bit when we get more world building about the ancient history. Things like people's obsession with blood purity, the lord's right to the first night, etc might be foreshadowing for supernatural reveals to come in addition to being amplified versions of our own history.
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ASOIAF is not really post apocalyptic, at least not by any measure of canon. There were mysterious prior civilizations, but they afford modern Westeros no real technological advancements.
Regardless, the point wasn't a critique of maesters having access to anachronistically advanced medicine — it was that by having access to it, the inflated birthing mortality rate should in fact be lower than historical ones, not higher. (Seriously, just read this, it's illuminating.)
I'd say it's literally, textually, post apocalyptic. There is evidence of prior civilizations that were much more advanced (technologically, magically, or both) and The Long Night is an apocalyptic event that everybody knows and talks about. Then there are things like the Doom of Valyria and whatever happened in Hardhome that give hints of things that could have happened long ago. Claiming it isn't post apocalyptic feels more tin foily than saying it is, honestly.
I will read it at some point, but could the mortality rate have to do with all of the inbreeding?
Also the
is super sweet but I don't at all see it ending up the way it did in the show because Tyrion in the books is lowkey... you know... Like That.
Jon and Tyrion friendship
is super sweet but I don't at all see it ending up the way it did in the show because Tyrion in the books is lowkey... you know... Like That.
I have to say, I love the idea and pacing of this "book club". I'm always already reading another book (among other hobbies), but I can easily find the time to read five chapters a week.
Since I'm not done with the Dune series yet (almost finished with Heretics) this might be the first time in my life I'm reading two books at once (outside of school shit, I guess).
No, because the mortality rate affects women in every region of the Seven Kingdoms.
There's no evidence that any prior Westerosi civilization was more technologically advanced in any sense that affects modern Westeros — or Essos — which is why I personally wouldn't label it "post-apocalyptic." All we have is the Hightower's base being the mysterious oily black stone... and that's it. The Long Night happened, but it didn't plunge Westeros' technology/infrastructure back. That's only steadily increased — Westeros is not in medieval stasis, as is commonly thought.
Magically, though? Yeah, it's massively declined, and Westeros was in a lull prior to the series' events, with the death of the dragons and the disappearance of the Children, as was Essos after Valyria's fall, the Rhoynars' eradication, etc.
I think we're just thinking of "post-apocalyptic" in different ways. There were ancient magical civilizations — recently human, and more anciently non-human — and most of their arts are lost, but the world's non-magical technology is better than ever. There hasn't been a singular "apocalypse" as far as we know from which the world is recovering, just a lot of civilizations coming and going for various reasons, including war or self-contained apocalypse.
Does it affect the smallfolk in the same ways, or just all the inbred nobility across the seven kingdoms? I'm sure Martin had hemophilia and Queen Victoria on the brain when he was sketching out this society. Martin also probably overplayed the death from childbirth, but I think there's a decent chance he had things like health conditions brought on by generations of inbreeding in mind.
As far as what the head maesters do or do not know, that's still up in the air. The story arc in the citadel with several different characters converging there after secret books will likely reveal something big, after all. But I think the ancient black stone at the base of the hightower could be a metaphor for how deep their knowledge goes. The far back history most people in westeros know (taught by their houses maester) is mostly transcribed songs and oral history, but there might be more definitive recorded stuff in the restricted section. The fact that the Hightowers are an ancient house at the roots of both the faith of the seven in westeros and the citadel, the fact that they seem to get away with not getting overtly involved in wars, along with their house words (We Light the Way), gives them a very illuminati vibe that I don't think is an accident. Martin even introduces characters that are untrustworthy of maesters to make us question them. Though it could be a red herring, I suppose. Also, he could have just messed up the level of medical knowledge and I'm attaching an unrelated theory to justify it.
We can all agree that the histories that the main characters know and are told are obviously messed up. It's the why that we don't know. Some of it is very likely due to reinterpretation from septons, maesters, and bards over time, but I wouldn't be so quick to entirely discount conspiratorial ideas from this author either. I think both are probably true to an extent, we just don't know how to weigh those factors yet.
There are a lot of mini apocalypses (just every years-long winter is pretty bad), but since there are legends of the long night, the night's king and his bride, the last hero, and the wall, while all the way over in essos there are legends and structures that mirror those elements almost exactly–while the far east and the far north are both wastelands–seems to imply that there was one big apocalypse long ago.
We can all agree that the histories that the main characters know and are told are obviously messed up. It's the why that we don't know. Some of it is very likely due to reinterpretation from septons, maesters, and bards over time, but I wouldn't be so quick to entirely discount conspiratorial ideas from this author either. I think both are probably true to an extent, we just don't know how to weigh those factors yet.
There are a lot of mini apocalypses (just every years-long winter is pretty bad), but since there are legends of the long night, the night's king and his bride, the last hero, and the wall, while all the way over in essos there are legends and structures that mirror those elements almost exactly–while the far east and the far north are both wastelands–seems to imply that there was one big apocalypse long ago.
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Thanks for this. A good read.
This is basically my view though.
I don't know, call me a romantic. But, I don't see Tyrion staying in the same state he is in, in ADWD. Tyrion is too compassionate for his own good. It's what prevents him from fully being his father.
one of the passages during her dream says this:
Is this referring to the WW? I found it strange that it was mentioned that early, it's obviously the narrator and not Dany's thought though.
Is this referring to the WW? I found it strange that it was mentioned that early, it's obviously the narrator and not Dany's thought though.
Oh yeah, it might even be impossible. This is what comes with watching film/tv adaptations first of anything.
A Search of Ice and Fire: Ned frowned = 13 results. 😆
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It'll take time but you can unlearn what you learned.
Also not only is Tyrion ugly but he's only supposed to be 24-25 in book 1.
Besides Dany, i find hard to accept they made a 15 year old boy king, makes sense with Joffrey because he is mostly supposed to be a puppet,but Robb makes actual war decisions .its a fantasy series but still.
The show cast is more appropiate
Yeah I'm having trouble picturing the characters that young. Seems like some manga/anime shit.
it is Dany's thoughts. There is no narrator. And yes it looks to me like an early nod to her coming face to face with the WW threat.
Same tbh. I do that in most JRPGs too, so I was well prepared for such suspension of disbelief when I read ASOIAF.
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Yeah but he remember that Robb just proved himself by winning a battle and capturing Jaime Lannister. They'd make a 12 year old king if his last name was Stark and proved himself on the battlefield.
I'm more bothered by Bran and Dany's ages that anyone else's.
GRRM should've made Bran fraternal twins with Arya Stark.
Something to keep in mind is that in this world people grow up FAST (if they're lucky to grow up at all) and die young. Those who make it to 50 are considered geezers.
An easy litmus test I use to measure out whether I'm dealing with a gross ASOIAF fan is whether they claim
or that
Drogo and Dany's first time was consensual, ignoring the fact that she's thirteen years old and been sold to him like chattel
or that
Tyrion with the sex slave in Volantis wasn't rape because "she's a whore" (ignoring the fact that no, she's not, she's a sex slave, and even if she weren't, sex workers can still be raped