A song of ice and fire |OT| The never ending Autumn

Faddy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,047
Are you sure the timing doesn't favor Jaime/Cersei?

Also, I think Tyrion doesn't ride a dragon, I think he will lead the attack to kill the last dragon (Drogon) when it attacks King's Landing when it's on the loose and Dany is AWOL or dead.

Tyrion being a secret Targ would ruin his story with Tywin's. Listen to The Reins of Castamere, it sounds like Tyrion speaking to Tywin after everything is over (the first line being Tywin, the rest being Tyrion), how he's as much of a Lannister as his father.
If you are going down that route it makes even more sense for Tyrion to be bastard.

Since the songs goes "only a cat of a different coat" ; The Lannister Lion is gold, the Reyne Lion was red. If Tyrion were a bastard it would be typical to reverse the colours of his House Arms, like the Blackfyre's banner is the reverse of the Targ banner. He would be a Red Lion and not a Gold one.

Remembering that his mother was also born a Lannister, so his Lion lineage is not just through Tywin.
 

Ether_Snake

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Oct 29, 2017
5,129
Joanna died birthing Tyrion in 273 and the big blow up Tywin tries to resign over was in 272.

Joanna gave birth to the twins in 266. She was sent from KL "not long after" her wedding in 263 and "seldom visited".
Joanna died birthing Tyrion in 273 and the big blow up Tywin tries to resign over was in 272.

Joanna gave birth to the twins in 266. She was sent from KL "not long after" her wedding in 263 and "seldom visited".
The resignation was over Aerys' comment about her tits no? And why would it be more likely that she would have sex with Aerys in 272 rather than in 266? In both cases she is out of KL's.

If you are going down that route it makes even more sense for Tyrion to be bastard.

Since the songs goes "only a cat of a different coat" ; The Lannister Lion is gold, the Reyne Lion was red. If Tyrion were a bastard it would be typical to reverse the colours of his House Arms, like the Blackfyre's banner is the reverse of the Targ banner. He would be a Red Lion and not a Gold one.

Remembering that his mother was also born a Lannister, so his Lion lineage is not just through Tywin.
Tyrion is saying (assuming the song is him speaking to Tywin), that even if he has betrayed Tywin and Cersei, he's still a Lannister as much as Tywin was. You can also see it as him saying he's a Lannister even if a dwarf, and the whole song is Tyrion's reply to Tywin asking "Who are you, dwarf, that I should bow so low to you?". He's not a half-lion, he's a lion, he's a Lannister, and in fact might be the only Lannister heir.

That all being said, I think all three are Lannisters. Aerys' interest in Joanna I think was written by GRRM to build up Tywin's treachery against Aerys, that even the king of the seven kingdoms could not have what Tywin had, and that Tywin not only protected what was his from his king, but essentially took his place by bidding his time.

Still think Tyrion is killing Drogon, the last dragon :) Ties in nicely to his first chapter. I think it will be the last thing he does for Cersei (not so much for her really, but for the people of KL, yet helping her eliminate the last remaining threat to her rule, or so she and everyone else thinks).
 

Kahoots

Member
Feb 15, 2018
614
The resignation was over Aerys' comment about her tits no? And why would it be more likely that she would have sex with Aerys in 272 rather than in 266? In both cases she is out of KL's.
She's not out of KL, she's there in KL in 272 at the anniversary tourney for Aerys to ask her the question. Where something so happened that caused Tywin to try and resign in the morning. And Tyrion pops out the next year.

That's what TWOIAF gave us.

Blood and Fire fills in details on Alyssa Targaryen. A Targ with mismatched eyes, a broken crooked nose and who is fond of sex.
 

Ether_Snake

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,129
She's not out of KL, she's there in KL in 272 at the anniversary tourney for Aerys to ask her the question. Where something so happened that caused Tywin to try and resign in the morning. And Tyrion pops out the next year.

That's what TWOIAF gave us.

Blood and Fire fills in details on Alyssa Targaryen. A Targ with mismatched eyes, a broken crooked nose and who is fond of sex.
Reading up on the theory, I can see why people think it makes sense, but I don't see why the heck GRRM would write it this way. It kind of ruins the Tywin relationship.

The way I saw it: the Joanna stuff was to build Tywin's character like I said earlier, Tyrion was a real Lannister (Cersei and Jaime probably as well), more of a true heir considering his wits than Tywin would every accept, and Cersei's Aerys-like attitude was simply illustrating how power can corrupt to the same end regardless of one's bloodline, which can help drive the point that Daenerys doesn't have to end up like Aerys. Tyrion's fondness of dragons was to build up the difficult decision he would have to take at the end of the story, which is to kill the last dragon to save King's Landing, even if it means helping Cersei eliminate the last threat to her rule.

edit: Or Euron gives her dragonbinder and she blows it, warging into Drogon and Tyrion kills her, that would tie up all her "burn everyone!" mindset. But nah, I doubt it.
 
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Kahoots

Member
Feb 15, 2018
614
GRRM doesn't have a personal vendetta against Tywin and isn't indulging in the revenge fantasy people so dearly want. Tyrion was always going to be a Targaryen and it isn't that it ruins their relationship but that everyone who thinks it does never understood what GRRM is doing with Tyrion.

Joanna Lannister taught Cersei tears are a woman's weapon. She was fucking the king so much she had to be sent away. She then married the most powerful man in the West only for him to become Hand and then it said he was the most powerful man in the realm. And it was said about him that Tywin Lannister ruled the Seven Kingdoms but Joanna ruled Lord Tywin. There is an archetype Westerwoman, she controls by manipulating men, and Joanna Lannister is the OG.

Tyrion's advice to Jon in accepting what he is, "Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it," is a cornerstone of Tyrion's arc. With Shae,
Fool, he thought to himself afterward, as they lay in the center of the sagging mattress amidst the rumpled sheets. Will you never learn, dwarf? She's a whore, damn you, it's your coin she loves, not your cock. Remember Tysha? Yet when his fingers trailed lightly over one nipple, it stiffened at the touch, and he could see the mark on her breast where he'd bitten her in his passion.
Joanna was not a whore, but it was power she loved and not the men, and that's the hard truth Tywin would rather deny than face it. His wife loved power and was unfaithful to him. Because, like Tyrion, he was a sucker for manipulative women who can make him feel loved.

Doubt it?

Tears are a woman's weapon she taught Cersei, so who do we suppose Joanna used her tears on? Tywin one would suppose. Is Tywin susceptible to such things?
"Unspeakable things." As the tears rolled slowly down that pretty face, no doubt every man in the hall wanted to take Shae in his arms and comfort her.
And there's the reason for Shae in Tywin's bed, they both have the same failing, they both fall for the same manipulations.

Enter Sansa. The budding young pawn to player in the game of thrones. To whom Cersei advised tears are a woman's weapon, and Tyrion's disease of wanting to be loved by which Shae manipulated him.
"I am," he said. "And you're—"
"—your whore." She laid a finger to his lips. "I know. I'd be your lady, but I never can. Else you'd take me to the feast. It doesn't matter. I like being a whore for you, Tyrion. Just keep me, my lion, and keep me safe."
"I shall," he promised. Fool, fool, the voice inside him screamed. Why did you say that? You came here to send her away! Instead he kissed her once more.
Robert gave a gasp and clung to her, burying his face between her breasts.
"My lord is brave," Alayne said, when she felt him shaking. "I'm so frightened I can hardly talk, but not you."
She felt him nod. "The Winged Knight was brave, and so am I," he boasted to her bodice. "I'm an Arryn."
"Will my Sweetrobin hold me tight?" she asked, though he was already holding her so tightly that she could scarcely breathe.
"If you like," he whispered. And clinging hard to one another, they continued on straight down to Sky.
In the Vale levelling up the required manipulation skills to rule Tyrion. Not coincidentally her husband.

And so things will go around again, Sansa will expertly manipulate Tyrion and take them to the heights of power. And the question boils and simmers below the surface as they climb and Tyrion learns more about Tywin. Can Tyrion prove stronger than Tywin and face the truth, that his wife loves the power he brings to her and not him? Must he follow in Tywin's footsteps even though Tywin wasn't even his real father?

And that's half of it. The other half is Tyrion in trying desperately to outshine Tywin's legacy is going to go unwittingly down the road of Aerys, while Jaime plays the role of the realm's servant.
 

Spectromixer

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Oct 25, 2017
5,576
USA
I've been reading The World of Ice and Fire and I am loving it. I just got through the part about Aegon's conquest. I loved the part with Nymeria taking over Dorne. This is really good stuff.
 

greatgeek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,002
I've been reading The World of Ice and Fire and I am loving it. I just got through the part about Aegon's conquest. I loved the part with Nymeria taking over Dorne. This is really good stuff.
If you're enjoying the Targaryen dynasty history, then you should should read Fire and Blood, which is an expanded version (of the first 130 years).
 

Morrigan

The MandaloRIAN
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
12,945
Fire and Blood is OK, but a bit dry. Dunk & Egg stories are so much better.
 

Spectromixer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,576
USA
Just got through Aegon IV’s section in The World of Ice and Fire. Really enjoying it but I find I can only read about ten pages at a time.
 

Ether_Snake

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,129
Been thinking about it some more. I think Jaime will be executed under Aegon's orders once Aegon takes the throne, and since I think Aegon will marry Sansa I think Brienne will be the one to do it. Everyone will have to play along to bring peace back to the land, because even with the Night King's threat gone and the last dragon dead, peace won't return until the convenient lies are made truth, the truth people want to hear settle their differences and accept the new king's peace. A big propaganda operation where the heroes are painted as enemies, and all must accept the lies, for the realm.

Sam will write the truth.

edit: Also, I wonder if Bran will "learn to lie". It's one thing to know things, it's another for people to believe you, or to do what you think they should do. Something he could learn from Varys. I can imagine Bran finding the truth about something, but lying about it instead.
 
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jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,338
So I get this email...



*opens link*


This isn't going to make me buy this shit, Amazon.
 

ZeroRay

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31
It's also the 8 year anniversary of GRRM announcing ADWD's release date...

Any day now, right lol
 

Ether_Snake

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,129
So I'm pretty sure now that Toby Osmond is playing Aegon in S8, he is said to be playing a royal role (something his bio accidentally leaked) and was seen wearing a golden armor. He looks Dornish. I don't think they are introducing a new Dorne king. But I realized something: Bran in the books has a vision of the Hound fighting the Mountain alongside a man in a golden armor. People assume it's Jaime. But it makes a lot more sense for him to be Aegon, since the Mountain killed his sister and mother. What a coincidence that Toby Osmond was seen wearing a golden armor!

Also, D&D would have chosen to not make Aegon look like Rhaegar, because if Jon doesn't then why should the other Aegon? Both instead look like their mothers.
 

Ether_Snake

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,129
So one part I never could figure was who the NK was, what's he looking for, and how his story would be closed in S8. Now I think I know.

1- I said before; the Children of the Forest created the NK in their fight against the first men, like one would build robots to serve and protect them. They eventually came to a truce with the first men, who converted to the Children's "religion".
2- The NK is controlled by a greenseer, using the Horn of Winter, just like how Dragon Binder works: if you blow it, you die, but you warg into his head. There must always be one controlling his mind, although it's possible that originally this was not needed and a greenseer could just take control of his mind. It was probably always a Stark making this sacrifice.
3- The CotF, the first men, the giants, all worked together to build the Wall. The wall would protect all of those north of it. The Night Watch and its castles were created on the south side to protect the wall against the south. That's why in the books there are even passages leading from the castles to the other side of the wall: the other side was the Night Watch's backyard, not what they guarded against. The Starks were the lords of the north, protecting the Night Watch and everything north.
4- Eventually, a Brandon was supposed to be the new one in line to sound the horn and die to take control of the NK's mind, like other Starks before him, but he refused. He destroyed the Horn of Winter at the Fist of the First Men, and he came to be known as Brandon the Breaker. The alliance was broken. So the situation turned around, the NW now had to protect the south from the north, and the Starks' history from before breaking the alliance was forgotten or erased.
5- Now, Bran is expected by the ones still allied to the CotF (Benjen, the Reeds, the Three Eyed Crow, the Children of the Forest), to retake control of the NK's mind. How? Not clear, maybe he just can, maybe this kind of greenseer hasn't existed in very long if not forever, and it's why the horn was needed in the first place. The NK would want Bran dead to avoid being retaken control of.

Chances are when you blow the horn of winter you get frozen. So the Starks in the crypts, the really old ones, would be frozen, and they are those who successively sacrificed themselves to warg into the NK.

Brandon the Breaker, having refused, would have went to attack and kill the Night King at the Night Fort, so the NK was routed north, but the freefolk didn’t want the NK around so Joramun teamed up with Brandon and they pushed the NK further north. Together they broke the Horn of Winter. One piece was burried at the Fist, the other kept by the freefolk, and it the books that is the horn Mance had, part of it, but Melisandre burned it.

The prince who was promised is someone the allies of the Children had promised would sacrifice himself to warg into the NK every time the NK was about to regain his senses.

The reason the NK started sacrificing children was because since Brandon the Breaker refused to warg into him, whoever had before him was starting to vanish from the NK’s mind.
 
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Yonafunu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
905
WoIaF could really use some more maps. I have a pretty good handle of the general location of most somewhat important places in the world, but reading about the Free Cities and not having a map showing their relative positions is very strange.
 
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Basileus777

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Oct 26, 2017
3,799
New Jersey
I only started reading the books after S7. I figured it all out and want to talk about it:)
It's tough to keep talking about it when very little new has been thought up since 2012. It leads to crack theories and fanfiction being taken seriously that makes online discourse about ASOIAF kind of lame nowadays. It was way better in the late 90s/early aughts when everything was still relatively new and people weren't just trying to one-up each other to invent crazier nonsense.

And the ASOIAF reddit is outright unreadable nowadays thanks to the absolutely terrible way they handle spoilers. And most the good posters on the Westeros forum retreated to the literature subforum over a decade ago.
 
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Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,212
I usually do a re-watch for the show when it's about to start but I don't really feel like watching almost 70 hours worth of TV all over again, so, instead of reading Dunk and Egg after having the book for over a year. Once I'm done with that one I'm gonna read Fire & Blood, hopefully that'll be enough to get me in the Game of Thrones mode after the insanely long wait.

[edit]

Just got done with the chapter where Dunk speaks with the Red Widow. Goddamn, man, I love GRRM's prose so much. The way he writes conversations is always super intriguing and engrossing.
 
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Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,212
I had heard a lot of the Blackfyre Rebellion which made me think it would make for a really interesting time period for one of the spin off shows but reading Dunk and Egg has made me REALLY want it now.

I love how everyone gives each other the side eye when they hear they fought for the opposite side.
 

Yonafunu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
905
Why do I have to buy a whole new book to get a map when the one I'm reading is already called "The World of Ice and Fire"? All I want is one map of the world marking some of the important places, it doesn't even have that. Not a dealbreaker, obviously, just kind of a bummer.
 

Kahoots

Member
Feb 15, 2018
614
Why do I have to buy a whole new book to get a map when the one I'm reading is already called "The World of Ice and Fire"? All I want is one map of the world marking some of the important places, it doesn't even have that. Not a dealbreaker, obviously, just kind of a bummer.
Because they want you to buy the map book, that's why there is none in TWOIAF. Not that it really is an issue given there's Google.
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,354
oh boy can we go back to 2011 when we had a new ASoIaF book and the world wasn't on fire?
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,212
About 125 pages into Fire and Blood, this is my summary of this book so far:



Can these mofos go one day without trying to usurp each other?
 

Ether_Snake

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,129
I wouldn’t be surprised that GRRM is waiting for the show to end to figure what he might want to change to not have the books spoiled. If so, TWoW isn’t coming out for a good two or three years minimum.
 

RatskyWatsky

Pesky Therizinosaurus
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,216
I wouldn’t be surprised that GRRM is waiting for the show to end to figure what he might want to change to not have the books spoiled. If so, TWoW isn’t coming out for a good two or three years minimum.
He already created a new twist in TWoW, I think, as a response to GoT, several years ago. That, combined with the fact that the books are already wildly different from the show, has me doubting that he's planning anything else in that vein for TWoW. I could, however, see him altering certain things in ADoS in response to how they're received in the show (that is if the show is even following the path that GRRM supposedly laid out for them anymore. It's possible that they tossed that and came up with their own ending), but we probably won't know for sure until ASOIAF is over.

And like, even if the books do have a totally different ending from GoT, that doesn't necessarily mean that GRRM changed things as a response to the show - he's already changed so much from his initial vision and it's been 10ish years since he had that meeting with D&D, it's possible that he came up with something better on his own.
 

Basileus777

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Oct 26, 2017
3,799
New Jersey
I wouldn’t be surprised that GRRM is waiting for the show to end to figure what he might want to change to not have the books spoiled. If so, TWoW isn’t coming out for a good two or three years minimum.
Nah, there's no master plan. He's just struggling mightly to write these books like has has been since 2001. He's not going to flip a switch, if the series ever gets finished it will be because he grinds it out.
 

Ether_Snake

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,129
Just realized, if Tyrion is a Targaryen bastard, his name would be Tyrion Hill. So he was close with his Hugor Hill nickname.
Also:
"Let me give you some advice, bastard. Never forget what you are, the rest of the world will not. Wear it like armour and it can never be used to hurt you. Dwarf Tyrion offers some sage words of advice for the bastard Jon Snow."

I can see it now in S8: when some defend Tyrion's reputation in Winterfell and say "He killed Tywin Lannister, his own father." Bran blurts out "Tywin was not his father. His father is Aerys Targaryen II", of course, after everyone learns Bran has told Jon he is Rhaegar's son.

They'll think the kid has gone crazy.

I can also imagine Bran not telling Tyrion after he sees the mess it causes with Jon, and telling him at the end of the story after Tyrion dropped Dany and maybe even led the attack to kill Drogon. He had always wanted his own dragon, and now he learns he could have, if he hadn't killed it. And it would also compound his "betrayal" of Dany and/or Jon.
 

Basileus777

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Oct 26, 2017
3,799
New Jersey
Just realized, if Tyrion is a Targaryen bastard, his name would be Tyrion Hill. So he was close with his Hugor Hill nickname.
Also:
"Let me give you some advice, bastard. Never forget what you are, the rest of the world will not. Wear it like armour and it can never be used to hurt you. Dwarf Tyrion offers some sage words of advice for the bastard Jon Snow."

I can see it now in S8: when some defend Tyrion's reputation in Winterfell and say "He killed Tywin Lannister, his own father." Bran blurts out "Tywin was not his father. His father is Aerys Targaryen II", of course, after everyone learns Bran has told Jon he is Rhaegar's son.

They'll think the kid has gone crazy.

I can also imagine Bran not telling Tyrion after he sees the mess it causes with Jon, and telling him at the end of the story after Tyrion dropped Dany and maybe even led the attack to kill Drogon. He had always wanted his own dragon, and now he learns he could have, if he hadn't killed it. And it would also compound his "betrayal" of Dany and/or Jon.
I'll think whoever wrote that scene has gone crazy.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,212
Yo, the shit that happened to Aerea Targaryen is crazy interesting.

I want to go to there.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,212
I got to the Dance of Dragons part of Fire and Blood.

One of the coolest things about the world of Ice and Fire is the way dragons are treated which has sorta ruined the ways I see dragons in other media. In other fantasy you'll see a dragon and it's, like, whatever but in this world they're treated like how they should be seen, like fucking nukes. Which is why this whole section of the book is so sad because this will be the point where dragons start dying off in mass and which will bring use to the period where the current books are set, a dragonless world where magic is dying off.

You wanna slap reasons into all of these fools as they're dumb ass family drama kills off such amazing creatures.