A song of ice and fire |OT| The never ending Autumn

Nov 2, 2017
732
I got to the Dance of Dragons part of Fire and Blood.

One of the coolest things about the world of Ice and Fire is the way dragons are treated which has sorta ruined the ways I see dragons in other media. In other fantasy you'll see a dragon and it's, like, whatever but in this world they're treated like how they should be seen, like fucking nukes. Which is why this whole section of the book is so sad because this will be the point where dragons start dying off in mass and which will bring use to the period where the current books are set, a dragonless world where magic is dying off.

You wanna slap reasons into all of these fools as they're dumb ass family drama kills off such amazing creatures.
Yeah I still haven't finished Fire and Blood for pretty much that reason. It's just so wistfully sad that near every dragon dies in this conflict that only begins because Viserys I was an idiot and Alicent one of the worst people ever. Reading through the book made me feel practically nostalgic for Jaehaerys' reign, with how peaceful and prosperous it was for the most part, and the dynasty and dragons growing in such number, then shortly after it all goes to shit.
 

Pokiehl

Member
Oct 29, 2017
500
Yeah I still haven't finished Fire and Blood for pretty much that reason. It's just so wistfully sad that near every dragon dies in this conflict that only begins because Viserys I was an idiot and Alicent one of the worst people ever. Reading through the book made me feel practically nostalgic for Jaehaerys' reign, with how peaceful and prosperous it was for the most part, and the dynasty and dragons growing in such number, then shortly after it all goes to shit.
While Viserys, the Hightowers, Daemon and Rhaenyra all made horrible choices, ultimately Jaehaerys himself is responsible. He should have listened to his wife and made Rhaenys the heir.
 

Ether_Snake

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,924
Ha, I think I figured that the Night's King, Last Hero, Azor Ahai, Coldhands, and Brandon the Breaker are actually all the same person. I posted it on awoiaf forum but it's pending approval for whatever reason, maybe because I'm new there. I might post it here if they don't approve the topic.

Basically: last hero goes looking for the CotF with his 12 companions, they all die but him, his sword is broken, and the Others close in on him. He meets the "corpse bride" (the female Other), who woos him and probably saves his life, turning him into an Other, possibly even raised his fallen comrades. They go back together to the fort he ruled, now to be known as the Night's Fort, he the Night's King, and he creates the Night's Watch. They start to create more Others. But by day, he is "a man"' as old Nan said, so by day he looks for a way to BREAK the curse, and eventually figures out how: he stabs himself in the heart with dragonglass (become the man we know as Coldhands), regaining full control of himself. He then stabs his queen in the heart with a dragonsteel sword. It turns the sword into Light Bringer. He, Brandon the Breaker, broke the curse that had taken over his men, and now they hunt down the others, Joramun joins, and they win.

That's why Coldhands told Bran, who said he was a monster, "Your monster, Brandon Stark."
Coldhands' name was Brandon Stark, he was Azor Ahai, Brandon the Breaker, the Night's King, the Last Hero.
 
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Nov 6, 2017
7,514
Los Angeles
Ha, I think I figured that the Night's King, Last Hero, Azor Ahai, Coldhands, and Brandon the Breaker are actually all the same person. I posted it on awoiaf forum but it's pending approval for whatever reason, maybe because I'm new there. I might post it here if they don't approve the topic.

Basically: last hero goes looking for the CotF with his 12 companions, they all die but him, his sword is broken, and the Others close in on him. He meets the "corpse bride" (the female Other), who woos him and probably saves his life, turning him into an Other, possibly even raised his fallen comrades. They go back together to the fort he ruled, now to be known as the Night's Fort, he the Night's King, and he creates the Night's Watch. They start to create more Others. But by day, he is "a man"' as old Nan said, so by day he looks for a way to BREAK the curse, and eventually figures out how: he stabs himself in the heart with dragonglass (become the man we know as Coldhands), regaining full control of himself. He then stabs his queen in the heart with a dragonsteel sword. It turns the sword into Light Bringer. He, Brandon the Breaker, broke the curse that had taken over his men, and now they hunt down the others, Joramun joins, and they win.

That's why Coldhands told Bran, who said he was a monster, "Your monster, Brandon Stark."
Coldhands' name was Brandon Stark, he was Azor Ahai, Brandon the Breaker, the Night's King, the Last Hero.
Well...it's not a new theory.

But I think you're looking to hard to fit things plot-wise when actually, they're just thematic parallels because history is cyclical.

Like the Night's King is just a mini-sequel to the Bloodstone Emperor of the Great Empire of the Dawn. They're basically the same story set on different continents at different time periods.

And AA is a messianic figure like the Last Hero. And AA may have been several different people.

And Lightbringer may not have even been a sword but a person or a dragon.

This stuff will get expanded on in the GOT prequel though and GRRM already said that the history we think we know may not even be true so the canonical status of all this may be thrown into the trash so the prequel can have a fresher state.
 

Ether_Snake

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,924
Well...it's not a new theory.

But I think you're looking to hard to fit things plot-wise when actually, they're just thematic parallels because history is cyclical.

Like the Night's King is just a mini-sequel to the Bloodstone Emperor of the Great Empire of the Dawn. They're basically the same story set on different continents at different time periods.

And AA is a messianic figure like the Last Hero. And AA may have been several different people.

And Lightbringer may not have even been a sword but a person or a dragon.

This stuff will get expanded on in the GOT prequel though and GRRM already said that the history we think we know may not even be true so the canonical status of all this may be thrown into the trash so the prequel can have a fresher state.
Well you're not working from more information than I have to come to those conclusions, but mine actually relate to what's written, no offense:p

The Last Hero was looking for the CoTF with his 12 companions.
The Others close in on him, everyone else died, even his dog, his sword snapped from the cold.
????
The Last Hero has a sword that the Others can't withstand and he beats them.

Clearly, his broken sword would be no good against the Others, so he somehow obtains a sword no one had before to beat the Others. How? Sam says he supposedly had a Dragonsteel sword, and Jon wonders if Dragonsteel is Valyrian. The Children of the forest do not forge steel.

It seems there is zero reason to believe the Last Hero met the CotF, so how did he come out of this alive, and then somehow get an awesome sword to beat the Others?

Then, we have Old Nan who says the 13th lord command (12 companions + 1 = 13th) was the Night's King, and that he was "man by the light of day, but the night was his to rule", and that maybe his name was Brandon. If he is man by day, but NK by night, then the character would likely be in conflict with himself.

Where did the Night's King find the Corpse Bride? The Haunted Forest. Where was the Last Hero when he was "dying"?

Azor Ahai is seemingly really bent on forging an awesome sword, but we don't know why. Day-time 13th lord commander/Last Hero would have a pretty good reason: the sword he had was ineffective against the Others, he needs a better weapon, and why make a new sword that will break again against them? I don't have clues indicating that Coldhands stabbed himself in the heart with a dagger, but the show has a book with a page about dragonglass used as a cure, and since they sort of merged Benjen with Coldhands it's pretty likely it makes sense. The CotF say Coldhands died long ago, so he came back to life. Flaming heart, frozen fire, dragonglass in the heart, Azor Ahai's wife stabbed in the heart with Valyrian steel/Dragonglass?

This is an illustration for Brandon the Breaker killing the Night's Queen. Or is it Azor Ahai stabbing Nissa Nissa?

What did the Corpse Bride look like? "Skin as white as the moon, eyes like blue stars"
It says the face of the moon cracked due to Nissa Nissa's cry of anguish and ecstasy when Azor Ahai drove Lightbringer into her. Tears rolling down the face of the Corpse Bride? The "white" corpse bride no longer being "white", as in, the moon cracks because she is turned back from being a moon-white-skinned Other?

So Brandon the Breaker, breaks the curse over himself, kills or frees her, forging Light Bringer, and defeats the Others with Joramun.

Seems like a really strong case.

Also, wouldn't surprise me that GRRM made it that the Western myths are the original ones, the Eastern ones the derivative ones. A switch on our world.
 
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Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,568
They're churning them out though, so that's not exactly saying much.
I think the most insane comparison is that almost the entire run of Game of Thrones, as a show, will have aired and released before Winds comes out.

Episode 1: April 17, 2011

A Dance with Dragons: July 12, 2011

Fuck, man. Goddamn.
 

RatskyWatsky

Pesky Therizinosaurus
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
7,677
I think the most insane comparison is that almost the entire run of Game of Thrones, as a show, will have aired and released before Winds comes out.

Episode 1: April 17, 2011

A Dance with Dragons: July 12, 2011

Fuck, man. Goddamn.
That is huge, especially considering there was also a 1 year gap in between the last two seasons. 9 years in between novels - and counting! :O

(Ether_Snake time: GRRM will announce the release date for TWOW shortly after the series finale of GoT - maybe even immediately after the episode airs in a special filmed message on HBO)
 

Ether_Snake

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,924
That is huge, especially considering there was also a 1 year gap in between the last two seasons. 9 years in between novels - and counting! :O

(Ether_Snake time: GRRM will announce the release date for TWOW shortly after the series finale of GoT - maybe even immediately after the episode airs in a special filmed message on HBO)
No he won’t, but do I believe he tried to rewrite or will rewrite the story to keep it fresh? Likely, but probably not drastically. Who knows, maybe it will have been for the best and allow him to write something even better.
 

VectorPrime

Member
Apr 4, 2018
9,712
I cannot wait for the day the show ends so that all the people who’ve been going “oh GRRM is just waiting for the season(now series) finale for a surprise release date announcement” every year for the last 4 years will finally stop.
 

RatskyWatsky

Pesky Therizinosaurus
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
7,677
Once you recognize the secret reason for TWOW's delay, you will feel ashamed of your words & deeds.
 

VectorPrime

Member
Apr 4, 2018
9,712
My favorite people are the crazies who are convinced that WoW has been done for a long time and GRRM has just been waiting for the show to end to release it.
 

Morrigan

Armoring
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
12,062
You think this man doesn't look up rule 34 of Dany and Jon?
If he does it's on a different PC. He does not write on the same computer as his personal PC. He mentioned this interviews before. His work computer is in a separate office (separate building even, IIRC), runs on ancient software, and is not connected to the Internet.

...I hope he has backup discs ;_;
 
OP
OP
louisacommie

louisacommie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,198
New Jersey
How accurate do you think I am?
In the books got 10 plotlines locations
dany
Young griff
Dorne
Kings landing
The riverlands
The vale
The iron islands
The north
And the wall and beyond
And arya
Now 5 of those I think will converge

Young griff will kill cersia and tommonlen and defeat lannister rule of kings landing

Dorne will support

S ansa will marry him and little finger will become hand to think king after Jon conington dies.

Brienne will die in the river lands, to save Jaime, Jaime will return to kings landing, kill Cersei, then go to the wall and become the 1000th and final lord commander

Stannis beats the boltons will either die to the other or to dany

Dany will have 2 villians before the other, young griff and euron

No idea how arya will factor besides killing lady stone heart.
 

nampad

Member
Oct 27, 2017
977
Getting back to read some books after the show started again.
Only things I haven't read are The Sons of the Dragon from the anthology The Book of Swords and the Fire & Blood compendium.
If I am understanding everything correctly, Fire & Blood does include a more fleshed out version of The Sons of the Dragon so there is no need to buy The Book of Swords compendium if you are only interested in that short story. Am I right?

Don't want to shell out any money for something I won't read because there isn't anything new.

Might consider reading it if it has anything the Fire & Blood compendium is missing. Literally read everything else including the preview chapters.
 

Morrigan

Armoring
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
12,062
Anyone shocked at what he means by Draft hasn't paid attention to GRRM's (not a)blog since, what, 15 years now?
 

Zefah

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,797
I think most people have resigned themselves to reality by now.
I mostly have. I also have this completely unfounded fear that he is actually going back and just rewriting/rethinking the remaining book story so that not all of the significant stuff will be spoiled by the show.
 

Azzanadra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,314
Canada

Morrigan

Armoring
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Oct 24, 2017
12,062
Saw this years ago but just stumbled across it again
https://www.deviantart.com/dragoninstall/art/A-Song-of-Ice-and-Lemoncakes-264481091
It captures the characters really I think and makes me want to reread the books. Maybe I will if TWOW is announced during the final season of GOT (it won't be)
That art was posted recently, and yes it is glorious.

Edit: shit, I see that he has some really badass Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 fanarts as well! This guy/gal rocks
Haven't seen this in years, I remember I actually tried to name all the characters haha.
If you can't name every single character in that artwork you are not a true fan and you should hand in your ASoIaF nerd card right now! </gatekeeping>
 
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Azzanadra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,314
Canada
If you can't name every single character in that artwork you are not a true fan and you should hand in your ASoIaF nerd card right now! </gatekeeping>
LOL. Well I just tried it again and I did pretty well if I must say so myself, I couldn't name Aerys's kingsguard (other than Artur Dayne) right and I thought Lady Stoneheart was Bloodraven (it was the red eye okay!). Didn't get mr OF THE NIGHT either because I though he didn't look at all like how he pictured him... in fact this artist's depiction of Darkstar looked somewhat generic.

Overall I have to say that the artist did a really good job in making the characters identifiable by a combination of emphasizing unique visual characteristics and their placement in the picture. For example families and characters who share plot lines are often put together, and even like the Hound's placement beside another individual with his helmet gives away that said individual is Rorge because he's the only other person so was said to wear the helmet at some point.
 

RatskyWatsky

Pesky Therizinosaurus
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
7,677
GRRM revealed a new-ish (?) tidbit re: TWOW recently on Neil DeGrasse Tyson's Star Talk:

Martin: “I tried to be very accurate, for example, with horses. A lot of fantasy writers get horses all wrong. They make them these tireless beasts that can go anywhere and gallop for seven days straight.”

Tyson: “You don’t give the horses wings on their backs, like pegasus.”

Martin: “I have an interesting take on unicorns coming up in the new books. [smiles] Oops.”
:)
 

Azzanadra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,314
Canada
Oh god, whatever the White Walker endgame is in ASOIAF... I hope it is not as lame as the latest episode of Game of Thrones.
 

Gambit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
563
I am reaching the breaking point of just watching the show. I haven't been actively waiting, like I used to, for years, but with the show's ending upon us I feel more and more spoilers will come out.

Should I hold strong? Should I give in?

Any other book-only fans wavering?
 

Turin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,799
As of this moment, I might advise you to spare yourself the frustration of this show.

If you're just looking for good spectacle and fight scenes, it's not gonna be better than the Avengers or Lord of the Rings.
 

zdravkelja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,015
Serbia
The way they are described ASOIAF unicorns look more like one horned goats than horses, so yeah, it's good to shake some established things up a little.

I am reaching the breaking point of just watching the show. I haven't been actively waiting, like I used to, for years, but with the show's ending upon us I feel more and more spoilers will come out.

Should I hold strong? Should I give in?

Any other book-only fans wavering?
You can if you are curios, because the way it's going, it will not spoil the books at all. It might spoil the final outcome when it comes to ruling Westeros and Stark kids, but it's about the journey which will assuredly be better in the books.
 

Noodle

Member
Aug 22, 2018
1,333
Can I request that when the GoT TV series ends that someone here make a thread listing all the key differences and things missing from the book?

Lady Stoneheart, Mance still being alive, the horn that can enslave dragons, the horn that can bring down the wall, etc. Not every little thing, just major plot differences and cool worldbuilding stuff.