I used acronyms so the people reading the books for the first time wouldn't get confused. : p
But yeah.
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A song of ice and fire |OT| The never ending Autumn
- Thread starter louisacommie
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I used acronyms so the people reading the books for the first time wouldn't get confused. : p
But yeah.
I remember reading some tweet years back, it may have been from film crit hulk or someone else about how it was pretty well know GRRM basically had a massive falling out with the show runners once they started changing things. Which is the one thing he didn't want to happen and genuinely didn't expect them to. it's why he doesn't write any episodes anymore
I'd have an easier time believing this had he not teamed up with HBO again so soon to make multiple ASOIAF spinoffs.
Boatloads of cash, man. He's also unwilling to let them adapt a story that isn't vague history though. Like he won't let them do Dunk and Egg and he doesn't want them to do Robert's Rebellion either because he wants to reveal the whole truth there in the books.
well HBO aren't the individual show runners. I think it's more personal between them rather than not hating HBO. Not like the new shows will have the same people
True, but I'd imagine if he had fallen out with D&D (over them changing things in the adaption of his still unfinished book series) to the degree that he didn't want to work with them (on the adaption of his most famous piece of work) anymore, then he likely wouldn't want to jump back into bed with HBO for a further three/four/five projects.
He probably does have some huge gripes with the show but loves other parts.
I think the stuff he's most hung up about is the stuff he's openly complained about.
People not having helmets, dual wielding swords, how Dorne was done, LS not being in, Jeyne Westerling being changed to Talisa, Robb's story not being done like the books, Jeyne Poole being switched out for Jeyne Poole, the Tyrells brothers not being there, Daenerys being savagely raped by Drogo on the first night, the Jaime-Cersei rape scene etc.
I mean there is stuff from So Spake Martin where you read this stuff:
From his Notablog:
[quote Fan on a not a blog: ...since you're on a similar subject, what were your thoughts about the first season of "The Expanse" on SyFy? I thought it was really well done, but I haven't read the books yet.[/quote]
Yes, I'd wager he does indeed have some gripes with the shows, although some of it is due to the nature of live action. Every character in a battle wearing a helmet makes perfect sense in both the book and the show, but the visual medium somewhat mandates a change for the audience to keep track of characters better.
I'd be interested in seeing who initially wrote it, as this is based entirely upon their interpretation of GRRM in that moment, and how that in turn relates to their wider perception of him as a whole. It's similar to how people have cited a look Mark Hamill gave Rian Johnson as evidence for his dislike of him and his work. Was it a stare of malice, or was it simply a picture taken mid sideways glance?
For instance, SoSpakeMartin is found on westeros.org. That site is ran partially by a woman called Linda Antonsson, who a google search of brings up some interesting items. Check outthis articleabout her attitude towards the show and various parts of the fandom, ora tumblr pagededicated to the questionable things she herself has put on tumblr. I'm not sure whether Linda herself wrote this edition of SoSpakeMartin, but anyone could share some of her views and have them influence what they interpret from GRRM.
I can easily believe GRRM would think this of his books. But it's also a belief held by most the source material will always be better than any adaption. I would neither doubt nor fault GRRM for thinking this, but I can't take it as indicative of any feud between him and D&D.
LiveJournal's last user is moving the Sports and convention commentary over to his own website.
https://grrm.livejournal.com/566320.html
https://grrm.livejournal.com/566320.html
It wasn't from Linda. It was from a Westeros forum member called the Fattest Leech.
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Balticon_Report
It's a pretty big write up and we know she did meet with GRRM at that convention
Yes, she indeed seems to have spent a lot of time with GRRM, which is nice as she clearly holds him in high esteem. But as I said earlier, the views a person holds can affect how they interpret things.
Take this quote from the first segment. We can see how Fattest Leech is a fan both of ASOIAF, but also GRRM's other work. We can also see how she feels a connection with GRRM over their mutual experiences:
I'm very happy for her that she met one of her heroes, but I feel like any interpretations she makes of his behaviour might well be biased, and aren't necessarily indicative of any feud between him and D&D.
Just got to basically the end of the first season, in the first book, and I have a few questions. (listening to the books on Audible while at work btw)
Did Little Finger kill Ned Stark? It sounded like he took the dagger and shoved it in his head right below the chin. Someone else said to Sansa that her father was dead too before she went to write the letters. But it sounded like Cersei had kept him alive still, like in the show... Did Little Finger actually kill him, or just hold the dagger there so he would surrender?
The other question is more of a show question I guess. Have we seen Catelyn Stark's father in the show?
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Cant believe how long the first book is compared to the show lol. Im not even half way through the first part of the first book and its already at the end of season 1 basically.
PS: Does anyone know if they used the same narrator for all of the books? He is so good, Ive never heard anything narrated by him before so I was abit worried before starting. But now I dont want anyone else.
Did Little Finger kill Ned Stark? It sounded like he took the dagger and shoved it in his head right below the chin. Someone else said to Sansa that her father was dead too before she went to write the letters. But it sounded like Cersei had kept him alive still, like in the show... Did Little Finger actually kill him, or just hold the dagger there so he would surrender?
The other question is more of a show question I guess. Have we seen Catelyn Stark's father in the show?
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Cant believe how long the first book is compared to the show lol. Im not even half way through the first part of the first book and its already at the end of season 1 basically.
PS: Does anyone know if they used the same narrator for all of the books? He is so good, Ive never heard anything narrated by him before so I was abit worried before starting. But now I dont want anyone else.
Same narrator for the released books.
He died recently so they'll have to get someone else to do the next book.
I'm hoping that Harry Lloyd (Viserys) does it. He already narrated the Dunk and Egg stories.
Littlefinger didn't kill Ned. He held it under his chin like in the show.
We never really see Catelyn's dad do anything on the show.
D&D should have been forcibly removed after season 4, if they ever even were the right people for the job. They wanted the Red Wedding and cared about nothing else. It shows. Once you get into the books that rely heavily on subtlety the show falls apart (from a writing perspective - and let's not even mention the material completely divorced from published work).
Technically season four was after RW but I'm not even sure Trump could screw up the back half of Storm of Swords (and we might have gotten "Only Cat").
And I'm sure many will disagree with this, but 10 episodes were never enough. Not even the first season. I guess this couldn't be helped though.
Technically season four was after RW but I'm not even sure Trump could screw up the back half of Storm of Swords (and we might have gotten "Only Cat").
And I'm sure many will disagree with this, but 10 episodes were never enough. Not even the first season. I guess this couldn't be helped though.
I wish the show had kept some of the dreams. This was one of my favorite underrated passages from book one:
Wings shadowed her fever dreams.
"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"
She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.
"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"
She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.
"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"
Ser Jorah's face was drawn and sorrowful. "Rhaegar was the last dragon," he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. "The last dragon," he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever.
"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"
Viserys stood before her, screaming. "The dragon does not beg, slut. You do not command the dragon. I am the dragon, and I will be crowned." The molten gold trickled down his face like wax, burning deep channels in his flesh. "I am the dragon and I will be crowned!" he shrieked, and his fingers snapped like snakes, biting at her nipples, pinching, twisting, even as his eyes burst and ran like jelly down seared and blackened cheeks.
The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.
"… don't want to wake the dragon …"
She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.
"… want to wake the dragon …"
Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.
"… wake the dragon …"
The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.
"… the dragon …"
And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.
After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.
Wings shadowed her fever dreams.
"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"
She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.
"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"
She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.
"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"
Ser Jorah's face was drawn and sorrowful. "Rhaegar was the last dragon," he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. "The last dragon," he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever.
"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"
Viserys stood before her, screaming. "The dragon does not beg, slut. You do not command the dragon. I am the dragon, and I will be crowned." The molten gold trickled down his face like wax, burning deep channels in his flesh. "I am the dragon and I will be crowned!" he shrieked, and his fingers snapped like snakes, biting at her nipples, pinching, twisting, even as his eyes burst and ran like jelly down seared and blackened cheeks.
The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.
"… don't want to wake the dragon …"
She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.
"… want to wake the dragon …"
Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.
"… wake the dragon …"
The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.
"… the dragon …"
And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.
After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.
Thanks for answering my questions. Roy Dotrice has been an awesome narrator, I had no idea he passed away, that is terrible.
So far ive been really happy with the book to show adaptation. They seemed to have done season 1 almost beat for beat. Would love to see more of the dreams though, especially Ned's. The ones weve gotten in the latter seasons were great, but would have been awesome to see in Season 1.
So far ive been really happy with the book to show adaptation. They seemed to have done season 1 almost beat for beat. Would love to see more of the dreams though, especially Ned's. The ones weve gotten in the latter seasons were great, but would have been awesome to see in Season 1.
My favorite part of this is even though he is now using a WordPress site, they styled it to look exactly like LiveJournal.
The Red Wedding was the big moment GURM built before he even started on the books, and he's been winging everything since. So the show following the same trajectory isnt surprising.
Nah. He didn't even know the Red Wedding was coming until after book one was published.
Robb was originally going to die in battle.
Looks like Fire and Blood Volume I will answer some questions:
A comparison between Tolkien and Martin's notions of bravery:
https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.co...f-courage-j-r-r-tolkien-vs-george-r-r-martin/
https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.co...f-courage-j-r-r-tolkien-vs-george-r-r-martin/
Finally finished book 4.
Had read 200 pages in four days or so, over two months ago, so it gives you an idea of how much of a drop it was in quality imo.
Cersei is a bad POV character; she inevitably becomes grating and unlikeable because unlike with the show we are constantly in her head, so even if the scenes had been the same as in the show, she would have come as unlikeable as she is now in the books. The only interesting chapter she has is when she gets arrested, nothing happened with her during the whole book, there is no character progression and no build up of tension before that chapter. That GRRM didn't see this was a bad idea, I don't get it.
Everything that happens in Dorne is a total snoozefest, the amount of name dropping per page is borderline comical, like Martin is parodying himself, I had to speed-read through those awful chapters.
Jaimes does nothing at all except spend his time talking to himself or talking to boring people to get nothing meaningful done.
Brienne is wandering around aimlessly, two chapters would have been enough to cover the only important part which is her failing to find Sansa only to get captured.
Sam's story is also needlessly drawn out, the stay in Braavos a big waste of time.
The prologue never pays off to anything in this book.
Lady Stoneheart is currently pointless, but I'll give that a pass as I assume she is intended to give us an idea of who the lord of light really is, and probably serves as an example of what Jon will succeed at not becoming like when he is brought back to life.
This book should have been half its length.
Now onto the next one. Sadly in the show Varys and Tyrion lost all of what made them interesting when they left King's Landing, and I never found Daenerys' chapters much fun, but we'll see.
Edit: forgot the Ironmen part. Was sometimes fun, but agan it dragged on for too long, not enough focus. Should have just had Yara or whatever her name is as the POV character (see, how could I forget her name?).
Had read 200 pages in four days or so, over two months ago, so it gives you an idea of how much of a drop it was in quality imo.
Cersei is a bad POV character; she inevitably becomes grating and unlikeable because unlike with the show we are constantly in her head, so even if the scenes had been the same as in the show, she would have come as unlikeable as she is now in the books. The only interesting chapter she has is when she gets arrested, nothing happened with her during the whole book, there is no character progression and no build up of tension before that chapter. That GRRM didn't see this was a bad idea, I don't get it.
Everything that happens in Dorne is a total snoozefest, the amount of name dropping per page is borderline comical, like Martin is parodying himself, I had to speed-read through those awful chapters.
Jaimes does nothing at all except spend his time talking to himself or talking to boring people to get nothing meaningful done.
Brienne is wandering around aimlessly, two chapters would have been enough to cover the only important part which is her failing to find Sansa only to get captured.
Sam's story is also needlessly drawn out, the stay in Braavos a big waste of time.
The prologue never pays off to anything in this book.
Lady Stoneheart is currently pointless, but I'll give that a pass as I assume she is intended to give us an idea of who the lord of light really is, and probably serves as an example of what Jon will succeed at not becoming like when he is brought back to life.
This book should have been half its length.
Now onto the next one. Sadly in the show Varys and Tyrion lost all of what made them interesting when they left King's Landing, and I never found Daenerys' chapters much fun, but we'll see.
Edit: forgot the Ironmen part. Was sometimes fun, but agan it dragged on for too long, not enough focus. Should have just had Yara or whatever her name is as the POV character (see, how could I forget her name?).
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Well, that's not really true. Cersei is developing the whole book. She's turning into Robert hence the sex between Taena and herself, the overindulgent drinking and going fat. Bad to worse.
But she is unlikeable. She's never meant to be likeable at all. You're supposed to feel bad for her at points and see that she has some valid points about how she's being treating but ultimately, she's a bad person.
Being inside Cersei's head is being inside a sociopathic narcissists head.
I believe GRRM even said he needed a shower every time he had to write a Cersei chapter because she's so unpleasant.
I already knew she wasn't a secret asshole, but making her a POV character didn't work for me becase it made reading her chapters frustrating, she is a loser to and through and just annoying to read about, which made for an unpleasant reading experience in an already overly dull book.
Also I disagree about her progression to being like Robert: she was already fucking left and right before this book, this time it's Taena and Keetleblack and she doesn't even like it. She was drinking as much before too. I don't recall anything about her getting fat so if that was anything it must have been a single line at best. She's the same until the end, nothing happens until her last two chapters, and she is annoying throughout.
I added stuff to my previous post.
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How'd you feel about the ironborn? Euron?
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Also opinions on Arya and Sansa?
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On Dorne, well....let's just say that it's leading somewhere and two revelations in ADWD flips your perspective on why it was there to begin with.
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Jaime's chapters develop Jaime, ends the relationship between Cersei and Jaime, ends the war with the Riverlands and he sets up the BWB plots for later.
Take note of the singer that Jaime left Edmure alone with and where the singer was every time that Jaime talked and where he was left.
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Brienne's chapters could've been cut down, yeah, but they're not there for plot reasons. They really just serve to build her up as a character and showcase the destruction of the Riverlands as well as set up the Jaime-Brienne-Brotherhood plotline. Jaime needs to reckon with what his family has done to Cat and her family.
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Lady Stoneheart's plot is enormously important according to GRRM and has a large presence in TWOW from beginning to end.
Brienne, Jaime and Cat's plots are triangulating onto each other. They each build on the other. That's the Riverlands plot and there's payoff incoming. There are clues to what that parts of the payoff are that some theorists have discovered.
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Yeah, Sam's story is really drawn out, I agree with that. I think the stay at Braavos was mostly a waste of time but it did develop Arya because she murdered someone and she was blinded for it. I would've left a chapter in Braavos. No more than that. Sam only needed half the chapters that he got.
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The prologue.....well....I'll just say it now since you probably won't get it on a first read. The Faceless Man in the prologue is Jaqen.
And Jaqen is working with (gonna put this in spoilers)
Euron.
There's a payoff for the Oldtown plot that is hinted at in the previous books, ADWD gives some stronger hints of the payoff and a released sample chapter from TWOW explicitly tells us what the payoff is.
"They do," mused Alleras, the Sphinx, "and if there are dragons in the world again . . ."
"Dragons and darker things," said Leo. "The grey sheep have closed their eyes, but the mastiff sees the truth. Old powers waken. Shadows stir. An age of wonder and terror will soon be upon us, an age for gods and heroes."[/quote]
"Dragons and darker things," said Leo. "The grey sheep have closed their eyes, but the mastiff sees the truth. Old powers waken. Shadows stir. An age of wonder and terror will soon be upon us, an age for gods and heroes."[/quote]
You'll likely enjoy ADWD more since it moves the plot more and has some huge implications for what's coming.
On Robert-Cersei:
It's the last line of her chapter so it's meant to be a character moment from her.
Jaime notes that she's drinking a lot more than usual. Cersei is becoming more like Robert every day.
Cersei punishes her servants because she thinks they're shrinking her dresses as well. It's more implication though.
Cersei has two chapters in ADWD that would've been better off being in AFFC though but AFFC-ADWD is really one book so the books gain more reading them as one book with you switching between characters from book to book than going one book each. People have made those read throughs called Boiled Leather.
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Stuff does happen, but everything took longer than it should have, so to have a little development for a nearly 1000 page book is a problem to me. Probably didn't help that I took so long to get through it. But to me the biggest flaw is that George had all the control to write a tighter story, he didn't have to keep adding more and more subplots, and now it's gotten too big. Of course everything that happens might lead to some payoff, but why keep adding more and more stories and characters? It's unnecessary, he should have known better. No wonder it's taking so long to finish this. Can't imagine how it must have felt for people who bought AFFC when it was released and still haven't had a follow up.
Sansa and Arya's chapters were fine, but again suffer from not taking enough space due to all the other stuff. George should have kept this a tighter ship.
Sansa and Arya's chapters were fine, but again suffer from not taking enough space due to all the other stuff. George should have kept this a tighter ship.
I'll always defend AFFC. IMO it's the best written book in the series, with Martin's best prose. I like the Dorne chapters; Doran is such a great character, and I love how Martin examines vengeance and leadership. There's a very interesting juxtaposition between Cersei and Doran in terms of temperament and the rulers weighing the cost of war. I will say though that in hindsight, the end of the AFFC Dorne arc was heavily hurt by what happens in Dance. At the end of Feast you get Doran's reveal and what seems like a master stroke...only to learn in Dance that his plan was pretty half assed and poorly thought out. I "get" the reversal fairy tale tropes at play with Quentyn but...his POV just wasn't good, and the ending felt like little more than a plot device. The end result of that plot device could be very interesting if it goes where I assume it's going (Dorne siding with Aegon against Dany) but meh...could have gotten there in a more interesting way IMO.
Really the only downfall of the book is Brienne's POV. She's traveling to find Sansa but the reader knows she won't find her, making the travel-logue aspect more frustrating than it might be otherwise. There are a couple very strong parts of the arc of course, such as the septon's monologue and the ending/Stoneheart reveal.
Really the only downfall of the book is Brienne's POV. She's traveling to find Sansa but the reader knows she won't find her, making the travel-logue aspect more frustrating than it might be otherwise. There are a couple very strong parts of the arc of course, such as the septon's monologue and the ending/Stoneheart reveal.
Well, the way that GRRM built subplots in AFFC (and also ADWD) is that they're meant to snowball into each other. Subplots aren't created for their own sakes but because he's layering a mega-plot that's about to commence. The issue is that the payoffs aren't in the books that they're set up in.
Like the High Sparrow subplot, the Dornish plot and Cersei's plot are snowballing together and going to crash into a certain plot in ADWD.
That's how Jaime-Brienne-BWB subplot sort of works as well. They're triangulating and building on top of each other.
Asha Greyjoy is likeable but she doesn't work as the POV character for that sequence. If there only has to be one Greyjoy POV in AFFC then it should be Aeron Damphair because of his relationship with Euron Greyjoy.
Don't sleep on Euron Greyjoy.
There's a lot of clues in AFFC about what his deal is but I doubt you'll want me to tell you. He seems marginal now but he's a bigger threat than anyone else sans the Others.
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AFFC is where GRRM lost his ability to kill his darlings. The structure of the series spirals out of control and he resorts to writing in new plot lines because he's in a rut writing the rest. The result is a ton of bloat, which doesn't get trimmed because GRRM refuses to be edited. All of this only gets worse in ADWD.
What new plot lines did he resort to because he's in a writing rut?
Asha doesn't work as POV character because George didn't make her POV character that works. He didn't have to write the books as he did. If he wanted to write about the Ironmen, he should have focused on a single meaningful character, a formula that worked well previously, and considering she had already been well established he could have wrote whatever to make it work. Or stick with Theon, who already was a POV character, and don't have him disappear instead. The reasoning behind the long-term payoffs are irrelevant from a reader-experience point of view if it makes it a worst reading experience. Yes I'm sure everything will have a reason to be, things will connect, but getting there is becoming increasingly difficult for me as a reader. He wasn't bound to write the plot he wrote, but chose to make it ever more complicated, which reduces the time spent on characters we had come to love reading about for the three previous books.
If TWoW is ever released, hopefully things tighten quickly, but in any case, what was to me perfect up to the end of book three (other than George's incessant habit of writing pointless garment description at every opportunity) is irreparably damaged, like a TV series that goes down after a few seasons. He can't tighten this without negatively impacting the worth of what came before.
I liked Doran, and again, I think it would have been an improvement to make him the sole POV character for Dorne with some rewrite of what happens in those chapters.
That was the plan actually. A 200 page prologue with one POV for the Dornish and one POV for the ironborn with the realization hitting that Euron and Doran were after Daenerys. Unfortunately, he had to ditch it and spread the story around the book because he couldn't introduce all these characters that we weren't familiar with so fast for 200 pages straight.
Theon's the best POV in ADWD and I wouldn't risking losing it there for some hypothetical benefit to the Ironborn plotline. If you lose Theon to put him in the Iron Islands then you have to invent another POV to watch the Boltons' side of things.
Aeron Greyjoy has the emotional connection to Euron Greyjoy whereas Theon hardly has a relationship with him. Aeron is the only one that sees Euron for what he really is whereas the ironborn think he's just like them. You're just make a bad trade off.
If I were to do things, I would've given only Damphair a POV and maybe Victarion for that plotline. Asha doesn't need a POV until ADWD.
-shrugs- To me, they're just pacing issues but the prose is better, the tropes that he's playing with more interesting and the characters feel deeper. It's at the expense of plot movement but if you're reading just for the plot then read a Cliff Notes' version of the story. That should suffice. It's about immersion. That's my view on things anyways and on how to read a story.
But I evaluate this as a series rather than a book by book basis.
He knows too much. There'd be no excitement if we're in the schemer's head. It's why characters like Littlefinger and Varys will never be POVs.
Areo Hotah is a mistake as a POV though or he needs a better character. People call him the The Camera That Rides for a reason.
Like Davos was only created as POV to get Stannis' view of things but Davos is interesting in of himself still.
If I had to fix it, I'd make Arianne Martell the sole POV for Dorne. No Areo Hotah and no Arys Oakheart.
There's certainly a meandering feel to Feast and Dance at times. A lot of which has to do with there being multiple POVs that revolve around traveling from x to y (Brienne, Quentyn, Tyrion, etc). Even the TWOW samples have the issue so far:
twow sample minor spoilers
twow sample minor spoilers
Arianne has two chapters out. She's traveling to meet Connington...and by the end of that second chapter still hasn't met him. No wonder Martin can't finish the book: imagine that type of pacing, with all the POVs back together. And you know his editor suggested he move things around and conclude Arrianne's first chapter with her arriving in the Stormlands. That way you subtract a chapter and presumably pick up the narrative in Connington's first chapter. Martin really has zero time not to be advancing the PLOT. In Arrianne/Connington's case the plot:
-(potentially show the battle for Storm's End)
-establish Arrianne's jealousy of Dany/concern for Quentyn
-get her to Griffin's Roost to meet Connington and Aegon
-preparation for Randyl Tarly's attack on Storm's End
-battle, or another resolution (Tarly switches sides, for instance)
That's a lot of action, both in terms of drama and conflicts. Given that we already know multiple chapters will be tied up with the Meereen and northern battles, there's not much time for this (or any) arc to be wasting pages. And this is just the BEGINNING of Winds. What will the middle or end of the book look like, especially if these early arcs run longer than they need to?
-(potentially show the battle for Storm's End)
-establish Arrianne's jealousy of Dany/concern for Quentyn
-get her to Griffin's Roost to meet Connington and Aegon
-preparation for Randyl Tarly's attack on Storm's End
-battle, or another resolution (Tarly switches sides, for instance)
That's a lot of action, both in terms of drama and conflicts. Given that we already know multiple chapters will be tied up with the Meereen and northern battles, there's not much time for this (or any) arc to be wasting pages. And this is just the BEGINNING of Winds. What will the middle or end of the book look like, especially if these early arcs run longer than they need to?
Look at the beginning of ASOS. Beginning chapters are always slow as fuck in ASOIAF.
Climaxes are typically saved for the latter halves of books.
And well, we still got the Forsaken and that badass Stannis chapter in the beginning.
I really like Davos, the show probably helped in defining him even more in my head, even if it was a bit of stretch to make him a POV character.
If Cersei can be POV I don't see why Doran could not, especially with a bit of rewrite to favor it. At worst don't give him many chapters, no big deal. Arianne was just there to be outplayed by Doran, but yeah it would have been better to have her as the sole POV than adding Areo.
Cersei is an idiot that doesn't know anything. Her main plot purpose in AFFC is so she can believably wreck the entire Lannister side in a believable way before a certain thing starts.
Arianne's a better POV choice than Doran precisely for one reason. She has more utility as a character. Doran's pretty immobile too and GRRM already established in ASOS and maybe before, that he can't travel.
Arianne's got a particular character development in TWOW that needs her two AFFC 's chapters to set up. Although, it's not necessary for the plot, it is necessary for the character or she'll risk coming off as 2D and maybe unsympathetic.
So yeah, it's kind of the same thing for everything in AFFC/big chunks of ADWD.
"This seemingly unimportant chapter/subplot is there because it sets this event up."
That's what makes the wait for TWOW so frustrating because of a lot narrative blue balling.
TWOW has the potential to be better than ASOS and to justify AFFC/ADWD for most of the fandom depending on GRRM executes his ideas.
But the argument those who defend Feast/Dance (including myself) use the most is that those novels did a lot of heavy lifting in terms of getting characters where they need to go for TWOW to start fast and have a snowball-rolling-down-a-mountain effect. You've made that argument recently as well.
Maybe I'm overreacting to one POV (two chapters). After all, Theon's TWOW chapters are solid and progress the narrative. Obviously The Forsaken is an amazing chapter, one of Martin's best in years. Arya's first chapter is great. But then again, most of those chapters were presumably cut from Dance right? So my theory about Martin having too much material/pages and no end in sight seems likely...
GRRM has put out 2 books in 18 years for a reason, and it's not that he's overflowing with inspiration. The structure of the series fell apart on him and he tried to fill the gap with new stuff that only made righting the ship an even more difficult task. It'll be 20 years after ASOS was finished before we might even get through the mess that was created as a result of scrapping his five year gap. There are still pockets of greatness in AFFC and ADWD, but it's buried in a bloated mess of unedited words in books without any real structure to them from an author that has lost control of his series and can't kill his darlings.
Only parts of TWOW's beginnings are from the end of ADWD. But all of the end of ADWD is all in the beginning of TWOW, yes.
Arya's Mercy chapter was cut from ADWD because it read more like an opening chapter which I presume was why Sansa's chapter was cut from ADWD.
I'm not sure if the Forsaken was meant to be in ADWD but I think it really should've been in AFFC as the end of Aeron's arc.
And well, this is also how GRRM works. The first half of ACOK was meant to be in the latter of AGOT. And Tyrion's ASOS storyline was done by the time he finished ACOK.
GRRM writes chapters not books which you can't criticize him for.
By the time that TWOW is out, you can be certain that there'll be leftover that will form the basis of ADOS.
Arya's Mercy chapter was supposed to be her first post-5 year gap chapter. He re-wrote it, changing her age (which is likely why some people were upset about the sexuality in the chapter).
Damn shame he wasn't able to make the gap fit. If not five years, surely 1-2 years could have worked.
Damn shame he wasn't able to make the gap fit. If not five years, surely 1-2 years could have worked.