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A song of ice and fire |OT| The never ending Autumn

Oct 26, 2017
2,959
New Jersey
''Ten years from now, no one is going to care how quickly the books came out. The only thing that will matter, the only thing anyone will remember, is how good they were. That's my main concern, and always will be.''

-George R.R. Martin

http://web.archive.org/web/20170721180006/http://grrm.livejournal.com/17565.html?thread=2143645

This was 11 years ago.
The sad part is not only he does he have no book, the longer he takes writing, the lower the quality of the book anyway.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,959
New Jersey
Daily reminder that ADWD is better than ACOK.
Except this is really wrong. ADWD is by far the worst book of the series. It's an unedited mess of words with no structure, a ton of bloat, and a lot of inconsistent prose. Half the book is just bad. It was rushed out the door unfinished because the HBO show had launched and because GRRM became too big to let his works be edited.
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,885
Los Angeles
Except this is really wrong. ADWD is by far the worst book of the series. It's an unedited mess of words with no structure, a ton of bloat, and a lot of inconsistent prose. Half the book is just bad. It was rushed out the door unfinished because the HBO show had launched and because GRRM became too big to let his works be edited.
It's true that it's an unfinished book but it's still a better book than A Clash of King because the substance is just better even if the framing isn't close to perfect.

Also what is structure? How do you define structure?

Is structure just the set up, climax and resolution? Is it how the story intertwines with itself? Etc.

It's hard to debate structure until you define what that means to you.
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,885
Los Angeles
Man, I thought you were cool...

AFfC/ADwD were slogs that went nowhere, slowly.

the first three books were not bloated messes and that alone makes them better.
I mean where is nowhere? There are essays dedicated to where AFFC and ADWD are headed toward.

And pacing isn't the end all be all. It's just one factor that makes a story.

GRRM has even talked about this in his Ice and Fire foreword that if you're just in this for the plot then his story probably isn't for you because the plot is window-dressing to him, he wants the story to feel like a journey and for you to feel like you're there.

Anyways, them being slogs is very much an individual experience. They were less of a slog to me than ACOK were.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,837
Canada
Daily reminder that ADWD is better than ACOK.
I don't know about "better", but I certainly remember my time with ADWD more fondly, probably due to A) dem Theon chapters :( and B) the zeitgeist of its release was just madness. I must've been... 14 at the time, and I had I only read the other books a few months before (2010 I believe?) but even I got caught up in the frenzy.

ACOK, even during my re-reads feels like the "slowest" and most mundane of the books, but it's also pretty rewarding by the end with the Blackwater and the House of the Undying. AFFC is better than both though, I know that one generally get a lot of flack but I really enjoyed my time with it- probably due to Cersei, she's just fucking insane and I love it. Even the Brienne chapters couldn't deter my love for that book too much.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,982
I mean where is nowhere? There are essays dedicated to where AFFC and ADWD are headed toward.

And pacing isn't the end all be all. It's just one factor that makes a story.

GRRM has even talked about this in his Ice and Fire foreword that if you're just in this for the plot then his story probably isn't for you because the plot is window-dressing to him, he wants the story to feel like a journey and for you to feel like you're there.

Anyways, them being slogs is very much an individual experience. They were less of a slog to me than ACOK were.
I was being very hyperbolic :) I do think that the first three books the story and plot was the main draw, and they moved fast, and that came almost to a complete standstill with AFfC and ADwD, he got to involved in details, and following Prince Martell for a whole book, just so he can open and release dragons was really a slog (yes yes, "can lead to Martells not siding with Danerys" but that'd require some pretty convoluted choices by the Martells imo).
As others have mentioned, ADwD at least suffered a lot from poor (read as no) editing.

I think there were pictures of the editors remarks somewhere where GRRM pretty much just nixxes all the suggestions from the editor?

Anyway, yes, it's very much an individual experience. I loved A Game of Thrones, Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords, AFfC was my least liked (Ironborn had nothing of much interested for me), and ADwD got too involved with details, and didn't move the story much.

As a sidenote, one thing about the three earlier books was that you didn't necessarily have to follow every character and get the minutia of every detail. I really liked not having a Robb PoV, getting the that part of the story through others retelling of it. I think it's very telling that GRRM nowdays regrets not having him as a PoV character. And that mindset shows in AFfC and ADwD.
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,885
Los Angeles
I was being very hyperbolic :) I do think that the first three books the story and plot was the main draw, and they moved fast, and that came almost to a complete standstill with AFfC and ADwD, he got to involved in details, and following Prince Martell for a whole book, just so he can open and release dragons was really a slog (yes yes, "can lead to Martells not siding with Danerys" but that'd require some pretty convoluted choices by the Martells imo).
As others have mentioned, ADwD at least suffered a lot from poor (read as no) editing.

I think there were pictures of the editors remarks somewhere where GRRM pretty much just nixxes all the suggestions from the editor?

Anyway, yes, it's very much an individual experience. I loved A Game of Thrones, Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords, AFfC was my least liked (Ironborn had nothing of much interested for me), and ADwD got too involved with details, and didn't move the story much.

As a sidenote, one thing about the three earlier books was that you didn't necessarily have to follow every character and get the minutia of every detail. I really liked not having a Robb PoV, getting the that part of the story through others retelling of it. I think it's very telling that GRRM nowdays regrets not having him as a PoV character. And that mindset shows in AFfC and ADwD.
The story wasn't the biggest draw for me from the series. The characters were.

Like one thing that AFFC and ADWD has over ACOK is that they're more in-depth character studies. If you care more about plot movement than knowing who these characters are then yeah, these books are going to be fucking frustrating.

The Brienne and Quentyn chapters aren't necessary but they're pretty cool story ideas. The female knight and the prince on an adventure quest that ends with them completely fucked rather than succeeding through pure grit and luck.

The only reason that I would've eliminated Quentyn from having a POV is so there would've been more space for the Battle of Fire to be the climax for ADWD.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,147
Brienne POV's were a cool road warrior story and we got some perspective on the fallout of the war. One of my favorites out of the last two books.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,457
''Ten years from now, no one is going to care how quickly the books came out. The only thing that will matter, the only thing anyone will remember, is how good they were. That's my main concern, and always will be.''

-George R.R. Martin

http://web.archive.org/web/20170721180006/http://grrm.livejournal.com/17565.html?thread=2143645

This was 11 years ago.
This makes me so sad :(

It's been so long, and with no end in sight. I still want him to finish the books at his pace and not rush things, but I feel hopeless about the chances of this story ever being finished

Daily reminder that ADWD is better than ACOK.
I think the problem with that book (and AFFC) is that they feel unfinished and unfocused plot wise, more so than the previous 3 books which each felt complete and focused even if they were all part of a much larger story line. Pacing is also an issue with these 2 books, but that is more a problem if the individual reading likes the pace or not. I see both AFFC and ADWD as a combined book that GRRM didn't even get to finish. I think the problem will resolve itself if he finishes the whole story, and like he says in the above quote, history will be way kinder, specially to those 2 books if Ice and Fire ever gets finished.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,542
England
I'd prefer to go back to the earlier books (in particularly ASoS) where the characters were interesting and the plot could progress at a steady pace, and we didn't have to choose because they were written for both.
 
Oct 25, 2017
785
I'm about to start reading the book series for the first time, but I wanted to check in here to ask whether my reading order should instead start with the marginal stories and go through all the narratives chronologically (I think the first one then would be Dunk & Egg?). Is there anyone here who approached the series in this way?

I don't expect that either choice will affect my enjoyment of the series, really, but I do like tracking how prior events influence later situations.
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,967
I'm about to start reading the book series for the first time, but I wanted to check in here to ask whether my reading order should instead start with the marginal stories and go through all the narratives chronologically (I think the first one then would be Dunk & Egg?). Is there anyone here who approached the series in this way?

I don't expect that either choice will affect my enjoyment of the series, really, but I do like tracking how prior events influence later situations.
The side stories rely a lot on previous knowledge of the world, so I’d say read the main story, then branch out. It’s good to know things about the world and stuff, but book one is already pretty hard to follow compared to other books if you’re not used to remembering names, so reading about the world might get in the way when the focus is following the main story...

What i wanna say is... you might get overwhelmed with stuff you don’t need right now, main series is self suficient, the other works are more like extra content you might wanna read or not and you’ll get some things better after you finished at least the first three books
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,457
I'm about to start reading the book series for the first time, but I wanted to check in here to ask whether my reading order should instead start with the marginal stories and go through all the narratives chronologically (I think the first one then would be Dunk & Egg?). Is there anyone here who approached the series in this way?

I don't expect that either choice will affect my enjoyment of the series, really, but I do like tracking how prior events influence later situations.
Read the main books in the order they were released, then you can dig into all the side stuff. I would read dunk and egg books after the main series, and then his Westeros history works.

I envy you so much being able to read it all for the first time right now, just know that you have at least another 5 years wait for the next book tho :)
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,885
Los Angeles
The side stories rely a lot on previous knowledge of the world, so I’d say read the main story, then branch out. It’s good to know things about the world and stuff, but book one is already pretty hard to follow compared to other books if you’re not used to remembering names, so reading about the world might get in the way when the focus is following the main story...

What i wanna say is... you might get overwhelmed with stuff you don’t need right now, main series is self suficient, the other works are more like extra content you might wanna read or not and you’ll get some things better after you finished at least the first three books
You could start with the novellas but those two stories are written more like a history account.

Dunk and Egg is good so that would probably work. It would be interesting to see what you think. There's a tone change between the main series and Dunk & Egg.
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,967
You could start with the novellas but those two stories are written more like a history account.

Dunk and Egg is good so that would probably work. It would be interesting to see what you think. There's a tone change between the main series and Dunk & Egg.
Dunk and egg could work, but it’s nice to have some knowledge about the world before experiencing it, as it’s not a finished compilation :/ not that The maind series is , but one of these is going to be finished, the other? Idk :/
 
Oct 25, 2017
785
These are all great tips, thank you.

I think I'll just start with the main novels, then. Part of the reason I wanted to ask is because I've watched the television series, so I wasn't sure whether that would offer enough background to start with the earliest chronological stories. But I'm fine to wait on the outside ones, since that will probably help to fill up the time when I eventually join you all in waiting for the The Winds of Winter.

Read the main books in the order they were released, then you can dig into all the side stuff. I would read dunk and egg books after the main series, and then his Westeros history works.

I envy you so much being able to read it all for the first time right now, just know that you have at least another 5 years wait for the next book tho :)
I do feel lucky to only be starting them now. I have a bunch of friends who are like so many of the folks in this thread and dealing with the pain of waiting for years. I didn't even plan on reading them until I found the main books in a stack on the sidewalk a few days ago, so I took it as a sign from the old gods and the new.
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,885
Los Angeles
These are all great tips, thank you.

I think I'll just start with the main novels, then. Part of the reason I wanted to ask is because I've watched the television series, so I wasn't sure whether that would offer enough background to start with the earliest chronological stories. But I'm fine to wait on the outside ones, since that will probably help to fill up the time when I eventually join you all in waiting for the The Winds of Winter.



I do feel lucky to only be starting them now. I have a bunch of friends who are like so many of the folks in this thread and dealing with the pain of waiting for years. I didn't even plan on reading them until I found the main books in a stack on the sidewalk a few days ago, so I took it as a sign from the old gods and the new.
The first book is pretty similar to the TV show not mentioning some differences in characterizationz

Book 2 is where extremely large differences start to creep in and the differences get bigger from there.

Also some similar twists have different payoffs.
 
Oct 25, 2017
785
The first book is pretty similar to the TV show not mentioning some differences in characterizationz

Book 2 is where extremely large differences start to creep in and the differences get bigger from there.

Also some similar twists have different payoffs.
Those are the parts I'm really excited for. I know of a couple of the differences so far, but only vague things like Lady Stoneheart and Arya having a very different personality, but I'm looking forward to the surprises.
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,885
Los Angeles
Those are the parts I'm really excited for. I know of a couple of the differences so far, but only vague things like Lady Stoneheart and Arya having a very different personality, but I'm looking forward to the surprises.
All I'll say is that your impression of AFFC and ADWD will be interesting.

Would recommend you read the TWOW sample chapters that are already out once you're finished with the books.
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,885
Los Angeles
New interview with GRRM:


https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/97g1g9/highlights_from_grrm_interview_with_john_picacio/

My most interesting highlights:

Bloodraven/The Three Eyed Crow took Dark Sister(one of the two Targaryen Valyrian Steel Swords) with him to the Wall confirming a long held fan theory.

Bittersteel probably didn't have any kids.

Davos isn't really based on anyone. Cressen was the initial POV but he ended up dying and GRRM didn't want us in Stannis' head.


Asked if he thinks of GOT as seeing a draft of his future work, he says NO. He also says they're killing a lot more people on GOT. Some people who have died in the show will never die in the books.
Also when asked about the red comet coming back or the missing Clegane sister, GRRM wouldn't answer.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
New interview with GRRM:


https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/97g1g9/highlights_from_grrm_interview_with_john_picacio/

My most interesting highlights:

Bloodraven/The Three Eyed Crow took Dark Sister(one of the two Targaryen Valyrian Steel Swords) with him to the Wall confirming a long held fan theory.

Bittersteel probably didn't have any kids.

Davos isn't really based on anyone. Cressen was the initial POV but he ended up dying and GRRM didn't want us in Stannis' head.




Also when asked about the red comet coming back or the missing Clegane sister, GRRM wouldn't answer.
I don't remember hearing about a Clegane sister.

Dark Star, TEC could still have it, giving it to Bran, but since he can't walk that wouldn't be very useful. You'd think Jon would end up with it, but he has Longclaw. Maybe he'd give the later to Jorah, and unlike in the show he would take it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,837
Canada
New interview with GRRM:


https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/97g1g9/highlights_from_grrm_interview_with_john_picacio/

My most interesting highlights:

Bloodraven/The Three Eyed Crow took Dark Sister(one of the two Targaryen Valyrian Steel Swords) with him to the Wall confirming a long held fan theory.

Bittersteel probably didn't have any kids.

Davos isn't really based on anyone. Cressen was the initial POV but he ended up dying and GRRM didn't want us in Stannis' head.




Also when asked about the red comet coming back or the missing Clegane sister, GRRM wouldn't answer.
Q: if you did have a child what would you name him or her? A: “I don’t know... probably Not Daenerys”
I laughed.
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,885
Los Angeles
I don't remember hearing about a Clegane sister.

Dark Star, TEC could still have it, giving it to Bran, but since he can't walk that wouldn't be very useful. You'd think Jon would end up with it, but he has Longclaw. Maybe he'd give the later to Jorah, and unlike in the show he would take it.
It's mentioned in AGOT:

Ned Stark could not recall ever speaking to the man, though Gregor had ridden with them during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion, one knight among thousands. He watched him with disquiet. Ned seldom put much stock in gossip, but the things said of Ser Gregor were more than ominous. He was soon to be married for the third time, and one heard dark whisperings about the deaths of his first two wives. It was said that his keep was a grim place where servants disappeared unaccountably and even the dogs were afraid to enter the hall. And there had been a sister who had died young under queer circumstances, and the fire that had disfigured his brother, and the hunting accident that had killed their father. Gregor had inherited the keep, the gold, and the family estates. His younger brother Sandor had left the same day to take service with the Lannisters as a sworn sword, and it was said that he had never returned, not even to visit.
Gregor's sister and father were likely murdered by Gregor.


And the books indicate Daenerys is going to give Jorah a Valyrian Steel Sword:

She nodded, as calmly as if she had not heard his answer, and turned to the last of her champions. "Ser Jorah Mormont," she said, "first and greatest of my knights, I have no bride gift to give you, but I swear to you, one day you shall have from my hands a longsword like none the world has ever seen, dragon-forged and made of Valyrian steel. And I would ask for your oath as well."

"You have it, my queen," Ser Jorah said, kneeling to lay his sword at her feet. "I vow to serve you, to obey you, to die for you if need be."
But....I don't think Jon is going to wield Dark Sister. Actually, I think he's going to wield Oathkeeper eventually considering it's the Stark sword now in Targaryen colors which contrasts with him being a Targaryen in Stark coloring.

Idk who would wield Dark Sister. Maybe Hodor with Bran's mind inside him. They'd do damage.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,079
I'm nearing the end of another re-read and came across this bizarre non-sequitur in Melisandre's chapter:

"The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."

A bag of fingerbones!? What the heck is she possibly alluding to? Did she steal Davos' luck before Blackwater and is planning on impersonating him for some reason? It's just so out there.
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,885
Los Angeles
I'm nearing the end of another re-read and came across this bizarre non-sequitur in Melisandre's chapter:

"The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."

A bag of fingerbones!? What the heck is she possibly alluding to? Did she steal Davos' luck before Blackwater and is planning on impersonating him for some reason? It's just so out there.
There's an implication especially once you take in Davos' chapters that Davos is going to go abandon Stannis and go south to save his family from Jon Connington and "Aegon" while Melisandre chooses that opportunity to impersonate or have someone impersonate Davos by using a glamor to convince him to burn Shireen.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,079
There's an implication especially once you take in Davos' chapters that Davos is going to go abandon Stannis and go south to save his family from Jon Connington and "Aegon" while Melisandre chooses that opportunity to impersonate or have someone impersonate Davos by using a glamor to convince him to burn Shireen.
I haven't heard that theory. So Davos wouldn't go to Skagos to bring back Rickon anymore? I haven't heard anyone talk about this line before so it really caught me off guard when I read it last night. It's a really weird thing to say, too. If Jon wasn't distracted by the Mance reveal, he might have been like "Wait a second, bag of fingerbones?"
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,885
Los Angeles
I haven't heard that theory. So Davos wouldn't go to Skagos to bring back Rickon anymore? I haven't heard anyone talk about this line before so it really caught me off guard when I read it last night. It's a really weird thing to say, too. If Jon wasn't distracted by the Mance reveal, he might have been like "Wait a second, bag of fingerbones?"
Davos still goes to Skagos.

It goes:

Davos goes to Skagos-> grabs Rickon-> takes him to White Harbor and drops him off-> that's where he'd hear about Aegon's invasion-> he realizes his children are in danger/or they're held captive-> Davos has to make a choice between family and his duty-> Davos chooses family and journeys south.

Would be a good parallel to Stannis who has to choose between family and duty and chooses duty.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
Wasn’t it just Melissandre explaining how she got the lord of bones to pass for Mance? I doubt she got Davos’ finger bones, seems more like a mere inside joke.

I think the plan was for Shireen to be burned when her greyscale activates again (strongly forwarned), which would push Davos over the edge against Melissandre and Stannis as a result, to eventually become Jon’s hand like in the show. There is no way Davos wasn’t supposed to become Jon’s, no way GRRM didn’t tell D&D that.
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,885
Los Angeles
Wasn’t it just Melissandre explaining how she got the lord of bones to pass for Mance? I doubt she got Davos’ finger bones, seems more like a mere inside joke.

I think the plan was for Shireen to be burned when her greyscale activates again (strongly forwarned), which would push Davos over the edge against Melissandre and Stannis as a result, to eventually become Jon’s hand like in the show. There is no way Davos wasn’t supposed to become Jon’s, no way GRRM didn’t tell D&D that.
There's 0% chance that Davos becomes Jon's Hand. As GRRM already said, the show is not a draft of his work. They've killed off characters that survive to the end of the series.

Besides Davos' story isn't about finding a worthy king. It's about the dichotomy of duty and family and the immediate good versus the greater good.

D & D just like putting actors together to bounce them off of each other because they think it's interesting.

This becomes more apparent when you read D & D's interviews on their thought process behind a lot of scenes which amounts to "wouldn't it be cool if these two characters interacted so let's get them in a room together".
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
There's 0% chance that Davos becomes Jon's Hand. As GRRM already said, the show is not a draft of his work. They've killed off characters that survive to the end of the series.

Besides Davos' story isn't about finding a worthy king. It's about the dichotomy of duty and family and the immediate good versus the greater good.

D & D just like putting actors together to bounce them off of each other because they think it's interesting.

This becomes more apparent when you read D & D's interviews on their thought process behind a lot of scenes which amounts to "wouldn't it be cool if these two characters interacted so let's get them in a room together".
I don't know, there's a lot of ways Davos can end up linked to Jon; if Rickon dies because of him, if he saves Rickon, if he saves Rickon and Stannis dies Rickon becomes the king in the north to many who supported Rob, and I don't think Davos is going south since his story has been very much tied to Melissandre I think he's sticking around her.

We'll see (maybe), but I think it's more likely than not that he ends up close to Jon, more than going south to tie up with Aegon's story. Aegon would be the "true heir", but I think that's the point; Davos will learn that supporting the true heir is not necessarily the right to do. Supporting Jon instead would fit with that idea, and it's the take they took in the show, which I think makes perfect sense with how the character has been brought up.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,837
Canada
There's 0% chance that Davos becomes Jon's Hand. As GRRM already said, the show is not a draft of his work. They've killed off characters that survive to the end of the series.

Besides Davos' story isn't about finding a worthy king. It's about the dichotomy of duty and family and the immediate good versus the greater good.

D & D just like putting actors together to bounce them off of each other because they think it's interesting.

This becomes more apparent when you read D & D's interviews on their thought process behind a lot of scenes which amounts to "wouldn't it be cool if these two characters interacted so let's get them in a room together".
Agreed. Anything involving and related to Stannis is a mess in the show, and unfortunately Davos is a primary causality- which is a shame because the actor does actually do well with the stuff he's given. He was even pretty convincing in his devotion to Stannis in the show (though Stannis himself only rarely has moments to warrant his devotion). Add to that the complete omission of any meaningful reference to Davos' family post season 2 and atheist Davos (oh aren't we just so down with the kids Dave!) and !show! Davos in the recent seasons is only barely saved by Liam Cunningham.

Considering how linked Stannis is to Davos, one can trace how the book/show difference in one impacts the other- for example, in the show Stannis is seemingly a true believe of R'hllor and does not hesitate in burning heretics, the implication being that "religion = bad"- thus Davos has to be an agnostic/atheist as he is our moral center on team Dragonstone.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
Agreed. Anything involving and related to Stannis is a mess in the show, and unfortunately Davos is a primary causality- which is a shame because the actor does actually do well with the stuff he's given. He was even pretty convincing in his devotion to Stannis in the show (though Stannis himself only rarely has moments to warrant his devotion). Add to that the complete omission of any meaningful reference to Davos' family post season 2 and atheist Davos (oh aren't we just so down with the kids Dave!) and !show! Davos in the recent seasons is only barely saved by Liam Cunningham.

Considering how linked Stannis is to Davos, one can trace how the book/show difference in one impacts the other- for example, in the show Stannis is seemingly a true believe of R'hllor and does not hesitate in burning heretics, the implication being that "religion = bad"- thus Davos has to be an agnostic/atheist as he is our moral center on team Dragonstone.
Stannis in the show isn't a "true believer", he goes along with Melissandre's requests but often with doubt, and ultimately comes to regret it all. I saw the show before I read the books and could read the same internal conflict which I then saw in the books afterwards too.
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,885
Los Angeles
I don't know, there's a lot of ways Davos can end up linked to Jon; if Rickon dies because of him, if he saves Rickon, if he saves Rickon and Stannis dies Rickon becomes the king in the north to many who supported Rob,
I think Stannis is one of those characters that GRRM has said survives to the end. (Not as endgame king but as a member of the Night's Watch)

Rickon's dead-meat but he's not dying anytime soon as one of the pre-requisites of a Shaggydog story is that there is a long build up before it farts out.


and I don't think Davos is going south since his story has been very much tied to Melissandre I think he's sticking around her.
I think it would be redundant. We already saw Melisandre and Davos lay out their philosophies in ASOS and neither agreed with each other.

Davos sees every innocent life as sacred and Melisandre is willing to burn kids to save the world as is Stannis.


We'll see (maybe), but I think it's more likely than not that he ends up close to Jon, more than going south to tie up with Aegon's story. Aegon would be the "true heir", but I think that's the point; Davos will learn that supporting the true heir is not necessarily the right to do. Supporting Jon instead would fit with that idea, and it's the take they took in the show, which I think makes perfect sense with how the character has been brought up.
One thing to keep in mind is that if GRRM had intended for Davos to partner up with Jon then he would've given Davos and Jon a scene in ASOS or ADWD but he never has Jon and Davos interact.

Davos' story is about balancing his increasingly hard duty against his morality and family. I think his endgame state is finally abandoning Stannis for his family not for another king/queen.

Going south to save his own family achieves that but even if his fate is not there, I'm pretty sure that Davos' endgame is to make Edric Storm the new Lord of Storm's End and to help him rule.

(No Gendry is probably never going to become Lord of Storm's End. He's an uneducated peasant that isn't very pleasant to be around and worships R'hllor. He's mini-Stannis.)
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,885
Los Angeles
Agreed. Anything involving and related to Stannis is a mess in the show, and unfortunately Davos is a primary causality- which is a shame because the actor does actually do well with the stuff he's given. He was even pretty convincing in his devotion to Stannis in the show (though Stannis himself only rarely has moments to warrant his devotion). Add to that the complete omission of any meaningful reference to Davos' family post season 2 and atheist Davos (oh aren't we just so down with the kids Dave!) and !show! Davos in the recent seasons is only barely saved by Liam Cunningham.

Considering how linked Stannis is to Davos, one can trace how the book/show difference in one impacts the other- for example, in the show Stannis is seemingly a true believe of R'hllor and does not hesitate in burning heretics, the implication being that "religion = bad"- thus Davos has to be an agnostic/atheist as he is our moral center on team Dragonstone.
Book Stannis Baratheon does actually believe in R'hllor. He doesn't at first but he gets there later on through ASOS to ADWD. It's very notable by how he talks.

It's just that for Stannis, believing in a god isn't the same as worshipping one.

Like Jon Snow believes in the old gods too but he doesn't worship them.

It's just they don't let religon take over their minds.

The only concepts that Stannis and Jon are fanatic about are duty and honor.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
I think Stannis is one of those characters that GRRM has said survives to the end. (Not as endgame king but as a member of the Night's Watch)

Rickon's dead-meat but he's not dying anytime soon as one of the pre-requisites of a Shaggydog story is that there is a long build up before it farts out.




I think it would be redundant. We already saw Melisandre and Davos lay out their philosophies in ASOS and neither agreed with each other.

Davos sees every innocent life as sacred and Melisandre is willing to burn kids to save the world as is Stannis.




One thing to keep in mind is that if GRRM had intended for Davos to partner up with Jon then he would've given Davos and Jon a scene in ASOS or ADWD but he never has Jon and Davos interact.

Davos' story is about balancing his increasingly hard duty against his morality and family. I think his endgame state is finally abandoning Stannis for his family not for another king/queen.

Going south to save his own family achieves that but even if his fate is not there, I'm pretty sure that Davos' endgame is to make Edric Storm the new Lord of Storm's End and to help him rule.

(No Gendry is probably never going to become Lord of Storm's End. He's an uneducated peasant that isn't very pleasant to be around and worships R'hllor. He's mini-Stannis.)
This last part just reminds me how there is no way the stories can be told in the remaining two books lol, poor George. I could see him helping would Edric, but he's been so long gone. Could be a sort of epilogue bit though, doesn't have to be dwelt on. I do feel after the story is over, there won't be one king, no more ruler sitting on the iron throne ruling over all seven kingdoms.
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,885
Los Angeles
This last part just reminds me how there is no way the stories can be told in the remaining two books lol, poor George. I could see him helping would Edric, but he's been so long gone. Could be a sort of epilogue bit though, doesn't have to be dwelt on. I do feel after the story is over, there won't be one king, no more ruler sitting on the iron throne ruling over all seven kingdoms.
Oh, I think it's possible if you want to believe GRRM that there are less than 13 POVS by the end of the TWOW.

Like the beginning TWOW sample chapters already positions a few POV characters to be killed off at the beginning plus the more POVS meet up at the same spot, the faster the plot goes because each chapter moves another character's story forward.

I think at most a 600 page eighth book might be necessary to round everything out.

Anyways, there will be no throne for sure as KL is obviously going up in smokes a la Sodom and Gomorrah (as is Oldtown) but I think there is going to be an endgame king/queen. I have very big ideas on who that person is. No, it's not Daenerys.

On Edric, well I don't think Davos putting Edric on Storm's End needs to be a big storyline. He just has to be at the right place at the right time and for Edric to show up at an opportune moment and that's partially why Davos going south would work with that since Davos knows where Edric is(Lys).
 
Oct 25, 2017
711
Serbia
I hate it when this thread gets bumped :/ I really shouldn't have started this series at all, I was always saying I would read it only if it gets finished and I caved in in the end... Fuck.
 

Real Hero

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Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,329
The exchange between GRRM and HBO on creative control of GOT:

GRRM: can I have script approval?

Studio: no, how about a million dollars?

GRRM: no, can I have script approval?

Studio: no, how about 2 million and part of the gross?

LOL
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
I was thinking, since the last book is titled A Dream of Spring, I’m thinking it ends with winter settling in, with people not knowing how long it will last.