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A song of ice and fire |OT| The never ending Autumn

Oct 25, 2017
6,428
Coral Springs, FL
Apparently in F&B it says Alysanne Targaryen flies silverwing towards the wall, but it repeatedly flies back against her will. It reinforces the idea that the wall was raised by The Others, which makes sense considering how much they seem to master the use of ice for odd ends.
Which contradicts the show, since Daenerys goes north without a hitch.
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,883
Los Angeles
Because I understand the themes and characters in the novels. Drogon will turn to stone and Dany will try and sacrifice her's and Jon's unborn child to wake it from stone. It is for Jon to try and stop the sacrifice, or not, depending on how he comes to prioritise and view his role and responsibility towards his child and the realm.

Watch and see if the show doesn't approximate this somehow.
Sounds very far fetched. The stone dragon thing is likely Melissandre not understanding that the prophecy has already been fulfilled, Danny already awoke the dragon out of stone (egg).
Drogo was Dany's Nissa Nissa and Dany already sacrificed her baby.

MMD's prophecy makes it clear that Dany is going to have a baby before she dies so if she's going that route again, it'll be with a born baby.
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,883
Los Angeles
Apparently in F&B it says Alysanne Targaryen flies silverwing towards the wall, but it repeatedly flies back against her will. It reinforces the idea that the wall was raised by The Others, which makes sense considering how much they seem to master the use of ice for odd ends.
Doesn't make sense. Why would the Others build a Wall to keep themselves out? It's not like the Wall keeps humans away.
 
Feb 15, 2018
468
Sounds very far fetched. The stone dragon thing is likely Melissandre not understanding that the prophecy has already been fulfilled, Danny already awoke the dragon out of stone (egg).
I'm not wrong, don't read on if you don't want spoilers.

The key to the series is that while dragons can not be skinchanged they can be second lifed, and that's how Valyrians/Targs rode dragons. Only to do it you have to sacrifice a child of your own. Once there's a human soul in there then a relative can (maybe) ride it. Dany did it by accident, dead Rhaego's and dead Drogo's souls went into the dragon Drogon and Dany can ride it.

Euron wants to "fly", where fly means skinchange a dragon. It is what his Valyrian horn dragonbinder does, and when his man who blew the horn died Euron realised it isn't a skinchanging but a second life, that he has to die to do it. That is he has to "jump from a tower" to "fly" where jumping from the tower is sacrificing his life and flying is second lifing a dragon. He also knows he has to sacrifice his own child, one with dragon blood, hence why he needs Dany, the last dragon blooded woman left with which to make a "heir" worth of "him". Heir being a sacrifice of his blood, worthy because it is dragon blooded too, and him being the dragon.

Euron will get greyscale, and then succeed in second lifing Drogon. That is what the HOTU vision of the stone beast, taking flight from a great tower, is, Drogon having been second lifed by greyscale Euron. (beast and not dragon because it takes on the characteristics of the blood and personality of the person who second lifes it, so drogon becomes kraken dragon stone.)

And the rest of Dany's story is her trying to undo Euron, or replace Euron inside the stone dragon. So as she now thinks she understands how it works she needs a baby to sacrifice. And all the prophesies and what not slot in around the child sacrifice, mother or father. It's why MMD's speech about Dany not being to rear a child again matters and why Jon's bloodline matters. The dragon has three heads, heads being the fathers who second life the dragon, Drogo, Euron and . . . Dany has to find another.

Rhaegar understood that the PTWP was to be a sacrifice. That's why he's a melancholy kid, because he believes he is the PTWP and thinks he's destined to die. Jojen had the same issue and so the same temperament. Then Rhaegar thinks it is his children that have to be sacrificed, hence why Aegon's birth (the birth of a first born son and second heir to the realm should be overwhelmingly joyous) is bitter sweet to him (and why we get given that scene). And then he thinks he needs 3 sacrifices because the dragon has three heads, so goes and has Jon. So Jon was born for the purpose of being sacrificed, and there kicks in the central theme of the whole series.

What is one bastard's life vs the whole of the realm?

Dany will become pregnant by Jon, and so becomes Jon's arc with respect to his child with Dany, ice vs fire, where ice is preservation and fire is consumption. Targaryen vs Stark. Targs sacrificed their children for dragons, ultimate sacrifice for the ultimate power. Dany is pure Targ, fire and blood, if she looks back she is lost, etc, she's done it before sort of by accident and she'll be willing to do it again. In the north during winter the adults go out into the winter to die so that children may have more resources and live. Rhaegar vs Ned. Rhaegar had Jon for the purpose of sacrificing him. In the snapshot we get of Ned at the expense of himself and the alleged greater good he historically saved baby Jon, refused to be a part of the assassination on child Dany, mercifully gave Cersei the opportunity to save her children and lied and dishonoured himself to save his own two girls.

Jon has to decide to prevent the sacrifice or not, ice or fire, house Targ or Stark, father Rhaegar or father Ned.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
Which contradicts the show, since Daenerys goes north without a hitch.
Sure, but the show probably won't cover the origin of The Others or the Night Watch, and even if they did in the next show they could gloss over the dragon refusing to cross over.

I really suspect the Night Watch
Doesn't make sense. Why would the Others build a Wall to keep themselves out? It's not like the Wall keeps humans away.
We don't know why The Others are marching south. It has certainly kept humans out for the most part, a few Wildlings still live north but they're keeping to themselves. They master the use of ice, their weapons and armors are made of it, they walk on snow, etc. It sounds unlikely anyone would manage to raise a wall of ice with magic other than them, they seem to be the only ones to use ice and be related to ice in general. You'd think some firewall or some such would have been used to keep them out.

For all we know they are marching south because something is threatening them, and they can probably easily get through the wall. Heck, they probably have the horn of winter.

I'm not wrong, don't read on if you don't want spoilers.

The key to the series is that while dragons can not be skinchanged they can be second lifed, and that's how Valyrians/Targs rode dragons. Only to do it you have to sacrifice a child of your own. Once there's a human soul in there then a relative can (maybe) ride it. Dany did it by accident, dead Rhaego's and dead Drogo's souls went into the dragon Drogon and Dany can ride it.

Euron wants to "fly", where fly means skinchange a dragon. It is what his Valyrian horn dragonbinder does, and when his man who blew the horn died Euron realised it isn't a skinchanging but a second life, that he has to die to do it. That is he has to "jump from a tower" to "fly" where jumping from the tower is sacrificing his life and flying is second lifing a dragon. He also knows he has to sacrifice his own child, one with dragon blood, hence why he needs Dany, the last dragon blooded woman left with which to make a "heir" worth of "him". Heir being a sacrifice of his blood, worthy because it is dragon blooded too, and him being the dragon.

Euron will get greyscale, and then succeed in second lifing Drogon. That is what the HOTU vision of the stone beast, taking flight from a great tower, is, Drogon having been second lifed by greyscale Euron. (beast and not dragon because it takes on the characteristics of the blood and personality of the person who second lifes it, so drogon becomes kraken dragon stone.)

And the rest of Dany's story is her trying to undo Euron, or replace Euron inside the stone dragon. So as she now thinks she understands how it works she needs a baby to sacrifice. And all the prophesies and what not slot in around the child sacrifice, mother or father. It's why MMD's speech about Dany not being to rear a child again matters and why Jon's bloodline matters. The dragon has three heads, heads being the fathers who second life the dragon, Drogo, Euron and . . . Dany has to find another.

Rhaegar understood that the PTWP was to be a sacrifice. That's why he's a melancholy kid, because he believes he is the PTWP and thinks he's destined to die. Jojen had the same issue and so the same temperament. Then Rhaegar thinks it is his children that have to be sacrificed, hence why Aegon's birth (the birth of a first born son and second heir to the realm should be overwhelmingly joyous) is bitter sweet to him (and why we get given that scene). And then he thinks he needs 3 sacrifices because the dragon has three heads, so goes and has Jon. So Jon was born for the purpose of being sacrificed, and there kicks in the central theme of the whole series.

What is one bastard's life vs the whole of the realm?

Dany will become pregnant by Jon, and so becomes Jon's arc with respect to his child with Dany, ice vs fire, where ice is preservation and fire is consumption. Targaryen vs Stark. Targs sacrificed their children for dragons, ultimate sacrifice for the ultimate power. Dany is pure Targ, fire and blood, if she looks back she is lost, etc, she's done it before sort of by accident and she'll be willing to do it again. In the north during winter the adults go out into the winter to die so that children may have more resources and live. Rhaegar vs Ned. Rhaegar had Jon for the purpose of sacrificing him. In the snapshot we get of Ned at the expense of himself and the alleged greater good he historically saved baby Jon, refused to be a part of the assassination on child Dany, mercifully gave Cersei the opportunity to save her children and lied and dishonoured himself to save his own two girls.

Jon has to decide to prevent the sacrifice or not, ice or fire, house Targ or Stark, father Rhaegar or father Ned.
Eh a lot of it sounds far fetched. Danny sacrificed three lives for her three dragon eggs to hatch. That seems to be all there is to it. One life, to hatch one dragon. Drogon is already born, there's no indication people can take over a living dragon by sacrificing someone else to it again.

Using the horn to take over the dragon? Maybe, but sacrificing someone to take it over again? Sounds a bit dumb. I can see Danny losing a dragon to Euron's use of the horn. The reason he needs her, is because he needs the dragon and its not coming unless she comes to him, not to make a baby to sacrifice it.
 
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Nov 6, 2017
4,883
Los Angeles
Sure, but the show probably won't cover the origin of The Others or the Night Watch, and even if they did in the next show they could gloss over the dragon refusing to cross over.

I really suspect the Night Watch


We don't know why The Others are marching south. It has certainly kept humans out for the most part, a few Wildlings still live north but they're keeping to themselves. They master the use of ice, their weapons and armors are made of it, they walk on snow, etc. It sounds unlikely anyone would manage to raise a wall of ice with magic other than them, they seem to be the only ones to use ice and be related to ice in general. You'd think some firewall or some such would have been used to keep them out.

For all we know they are marching south because something is threatening them, and they can probably easily get through the wall. Heck, they probably have the horn of winter.
The Horn of Winter is with Samwell Tarly. It's the horn that Jon finds at the Fist of the First Men. The Others were definitely looking for it but instead, they just barely missed it. And Sam was born at Horn Hill.

The unfortunate part is that Jon sent Samwell straight to Euron and Euron has a thing about blowing horns.

Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him.
And the text links the Wall and the Hightower where it's said you could see the Wall from the top of it.

So I expect we'll hear Euron use it once he's at the top and that brings the Wall crumbling down (or wakes the sleepers that brings it down)
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
The Horn of Winter is with Samwell Tarly. It's the horn that Jon finds at the Fist of the First Men. The Others were definitely looking for it but instead, they just barely missed it. And Sam was born at Horn Hill.

The unfortunate part is that Jon sent Samwell straight to Euron and Euron has a thing about blowing horns.



And the text links the Wall and the Hightower where it's said you could see the Wall from the top of it.

So I expect we'll hear Euron use it once he's at the top and that brings the Wall crumbling down (or wakes the sleepers that brings it down)
Sam's horn will probably have some sort of plot use, but I don't see why it would be the horn to blow down the wall. Why wouldn't it have been smashed to tiny bits?

Also I have been reading The Accursed Kings, and it's really obvious how much GRRM lifted from it. Awesome book, really recommended.
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,883
Los Angeles
Sam's horn will probably have some sort of plot use, but I don't see why it would be the horn to blow down the wall. Why wouldn't it have been smashed to tiny bits?

Also I have been reading The Accursed Kings, and it's really obvious how much GRRM lifted from it. Awesome book, really recommended.
Maybe for the same reason that the One Ring can't. It's indestructible or alternatively, the person that hid stuff there didn't know know it was the Horn of Winter.

I read the first 6. Didn't read the last one because it was a bit disconnected but yes, I agree.

Also try Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. GRRM has explicitly taken a lot from there as well.

And I definitely recommend Elric of Melnibone. The Three Eyed Raven/Bloodraven is Elric in a different i universe, the Melniboneans are Valyrians(down to the cruelty) and the Iron Throne is inspired by the Ruby Throne.





 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
Maybe for the same reason that the One Ring can't. It's indestructible or alternatively, the person that hid stuff there didn't know know it was the Horn of Winter.

I read the first 6. Didn't read the last one because it was a bit disconnected but yes, I agree.

Also try Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. GRRM has explicitly taken a lot from there as well.

And I definitely recommend Elric of Melnibone. The Three Eyed Raven/Bloodraven is Elric in a different i universe, the Melniboneans are Valyrians(down to the cruelty) and the Iron Throne is inspired by the Ruby Throne.





Nice

For the horn, it's cracked though. I mean, I'm sure Sam will eventually figure out how to beat the Others and all that, and the horn can probably be useful against them, so he might fix it or a make a new one like it, maybe it can be used to control them like the dragon horn can with the dragons. I doubt it's Joramun's horn though.

BTW how likely is it that Euro was once supposed to be the new three eyed raven, but somehow didn't stick to it? Some Vader-ish character, and Bran is Luke.
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,883
Los Angeles
BTW how likely is it that Euron was once supposed to be the new three eyed raven, but somehow didn't stick to it? Some Vader-ish character, and Bran is Luke.
It's basically confirmed at this point.

Euron's sigil(two crows crowning a red eye):



Euron wears a "red" eyepatch over his "crow's eye":


Bloodraven appears in dreams as a crow and irl only has one red eye:



In TWOW, Dream Euron shows up and is explicitly said to have a blood-eye under his eyepatch:

When he laughed his face sloughed off and the priest saw that it was not Urri but Euron, the smiling eye hidden. He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him.
AGOT Bran when he was in a coma saw what happened to previous potential greenseers if they don't learn how to fly in time:

Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.
Now, Bran, the crow urged. Choose. Fly or die.

Death reached for him, screaming.
And Euron has made allusions to dreaming that he could fly:

He wore the sable cloak he took from Blacktyde, his red leather eye patch, and nothing else. "When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"

Victarion could smell the sea through the open window, though the room stank of wine and blood and sex. The cold salt air helped to clear his head. "What do you mean?"

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. "No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap."

"There is the window. Leap." Victarion had no patience for this. His wounded hand was troubling him. "What do you want?"

"The world." Firelight glimmered in Euron's eye. His smiling eye.
Then there's Bran and Euron chugging down magical edibles to awaken their gifts:


"One flute will serve only to unstop your ears and dissolve the caul from off your eyes, so that you may hear and see the truths that will be laid before you."

Dany raised the glass to her lips. The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother's milk and Drogo's seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them . . . and then the glass was empty.

Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated.......

He ate.

It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him. The empty bowl slipped from his fingers and clattered on the cavern floor. "I don't feel any different. What happens next?"


Their respective trees are even color-coded as opposites:



And finally, both Bran and Euron are connected to godhood:

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies," said Jojen. "The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood."
“The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.” Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him. “Kneel, brother,” the Crow’s Eye commanded. “I am your king, I am your god. Worship me, and I will raise you up to be my priest.”
Euron is a wannabe-god and Bran is likely just going to fall into it like in the show.

Also Euron says he wants to make an heir worthy of "him" by marrying Daenerys which could be a reference to Bloodraven:

"They are of your body."

"So are the contents of my chamber pot. None is fit to sit the Seastone Chair, much less the Iron Throne. No, to make an heir that's worthy of him, I need a different woman. When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let all the world beware."
Or he could just mean making an heir worthy of the Iron Throne's king.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
Crows crowning the red eye, the crows are usually the Night Watch. Maybe Euron has forseen himself being crowned king by the Night Watch, maybe he’s the one who ends up saving the kingdom from The Others.
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,883
Los Angeles
Crows crowning the red eye, the crows are usually the Night Watch. Maybe Euron has forseen himself being crowned king by the Night Watch, maybe he’s the one who ends up saving the kingdom from The Others.
Out of story, they're called crows because it means Jon is a crow. It connects Jon to Bloodraven and Bran.

A false messiah is more Stannis and Aegon's stories.

Euron is more of a Satan-like figure.

He's more likely to want to ally with the Others or turn into an Other than save anyone. He doesn't want to be human, he wants more.

The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed …
 
Feb 15, 2018
468
Second lifing a dragon is Euron's ascension. An afterlife of hundreds of years as the most powerful beast in the world is godhood. Hence why the dragon riding Valyrians named their dragons after gods and didn't worship any gods. When you know how to achieve an afterlife as a dragon what use are gods?
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,075
Is Fire and Blood a worthwhile read or am I just going to endlessly run into chapters I've already read? Pretty sure the first chapter was lifted wholesale from elsewhere.
 
Feb 15, 2018
468
Is Fire and Blood a worthwhile read or am I just going to endlessly run into chapters I've already read? Pretty sure the first chapter was lifted wholesale from elsewhere.
30% is previously released material, the rest is all new. I have read 40% of the book. I think the type of superfan who is going to read it no matter what will get their worth out of it, but the casual fan not so much. It is a bit better than the Targ short stories and TWOIAF, but it is no Dunk and Egg.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
I don't see why the whole flying thing would be about dragons. He's the Crow's Eye, Bloodraven is a raven, there's no mention of any of the flying stuff being about dragons. "The dragon has three heads" probably means the head of the one sacrificed to birth it, the rider, and the dragon's.

On a side note, on the wall being a creation of The Others, I think it's similar to how people say the Egyptians didn't build the pyramids, and historians say they did build them with pulleys and such. In this case, Brandon/the Watch takes the credit for building the wall, but they didn't, they just settled on it, and use it to "watch over the north, against The Others", but it's really there to hold the south out of The Other's territory. The Horn of Winter (again, so many things named after the force The Others control) is said to be able to break the wall, but why? What's the point of making a "weapon" to supposedly use against The Others if it can break the wall? I think it's meant to open the wall when blown.

I think the Starks history is bull, the "Winter is coming" was not a motto expressing fear of winter, but a warning against their enemies. Brandon the Builder's part of the crypt is the only broken one, probably a wink from GRRM that his story is bull, he's not a "great builder".

The horn Sam has could be just the tip of the full horn, which was broken by Brandon the Breaker to prevent The Others from using it, years later when the Night Watch and the Starks' now stood against The Others. He ruled during the Night King's time, which was probably when the Starks and Night Watch switched sides.
 
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Feb 15, 2018
468
I don't see why the whole flying thing would be about dragons. He's the Crow's Eye, Bloodraven is a raven, there's no mention of any of the flying stuff being about dragons. "The dragon has three heads" probably means the head of the one sacrificed to birth it, the rider, and the dragon's.
It is literally all in the one conversation. He summons Victarion while staring out a high window. His dragonbinder horn which reads no mortal man may sound it and live, fire for blood, blood for fire, killed the man who blew it. Euron wistfully tells Vic this and that he wants to fly, but he'll never know if he can fly unless he jumps off a tall tower (no coincidence the stone beast is taking flight from a tower). He's worked out blowing the horn will kill him, that's the jumping off the tower, sacrificing one's self, it is playing on his mind, but fuck it he's going for it anyway, or at least is preparing himself to do it. He is mad after all as GRRM takes pains to tell us. He then tells Vic he needs Dany, specifically for her dragon bloodline, specifically to create a heir of his own and her blood as it will be worthy of something.

Look at what he is doing with Falia Flowers, that's the prototype for what he needs to do with Dany, or more specifically with the unborn child. He's probably (or at least hoping) going to get krakens out of that sacrifice due to his own blood. It is all testing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,428
Coral Springs, FL
It is literally all in the one conversation. He summons Victarion while staring out a high window. His dragonbinder horn which reads no mortal man may sound it and live, fire for blood, blood for fire, killed the man who blew it. Euron wistfully tells Vic this and that he wants to fly, but he'll never know if he can fly unless he jumps off a tall tower (no coincidence the stone beast is taking flight from a tower). He's worked out blowing the horn will kill him, that's the jumping off the tower, sacrificing one's self, it is playing on his mind, but fuck it he's going for it anyway, or at least is preparing himself to do it. He is mad after all as GRRM takes pains to tell us. He then tells Vic he needs Dany, specifically for her dragon bloodline, specifically to create a heir of his own and her blood as it will be worthy of something.

Look at what he is doing with Falia Flowers, that's the prototype for what he needs to do with Dany, or more specifically with the unborn child. He's probably (or at least hoping) going to get krakens out of that sacrifice due to his own blood. It is all testing.
This is what I'll always appreciate about the books, the subtleties that allow for discussion and speculation. The show has all the subtlety of a brick to the head since they passed the books.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
It is literally all in the one conversation. He summons Victarion while staring out a high window. His dragonbinder horn which reads no mortal man may sound it and live, fire for blood, blood for fire, killed the man who blew it. Euron wistfully tells Vic this and that he wants to fly, but he'll never know if he can fly unless he jumps off a tall tower (no coincidence the stone beast is taking flight from a tower). He's worked out blowing the horn will kill him, that's the jumping off the tower, sacrificing one's self, it is playing on his mind, but fuck it he's going for it anyway, or at least is preparing himself to do it. He is mad after all as GRRM takes pains to tell us. He then tells Vic he needs Dany, specifically for her dragon bloodline, specifically to create a heir of his own and her blood as it will be worthy of something.

Look at what he is doing with Falia Flowers, that's the prototype for what he needs to do with Dany, or more specifically with the unborn child. He's probably (or at least hoping) going to get krakens out of that sacrifice due to his own blood. It is all testing.
I think he’ll just be raised as an undead by the others, or figure a way to return from the dead like wraiths, then he can use the horn to control the dragon since he would no longer be a mortal.

Edit: actually no, it sounds like Victarion will use it. Whether the dragon stays under his command or not is not clear. Euron can’t be stupid enough to expect Victarion to obey him? I could see Old Town being destroyed by Victarion as he tries to kill Euron. If the first use of the horn is any indication, he could live for a time after blowing the horn. Or like you say it allows him to warg into it. I don’t see Euron being the one to do it, but he must know Victarion can’t be trusted and there is no reason for Victarion to have the horn if he isn’t going to use it.
 
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Oct 29, 2017
3,945
Oh shit, I just realized. The prince that was promised will be born from salt and smoke. Could be Euron. Victarion shows up as a dragon in Old Town to kill Euron, Euron summons the Kraken, the Kraken and the dragon fight each other, ruining the city with salt and smoke from the sea and fire. Somehow, Euron is born anew from this, powerful enough to save the world. He’s the one who ends up sitting on the Iron throne by the end of Winds of Winter, marrying Cersei or Danny or whatever.
 
Nov 6, 2017
4,883
Los Angeles
Oh shit, I just realized. The prince that was promised will be born from salt and smoke. Could be Euron. Victarion shows up as a dragon in Old Town to kill Euron, Euron summons the Kraken, the Kraken and the dragon fight each other, ruining the city with salt and smoke from the sea and fire. Somehow, Euron is born anew from this, powerful enough to save the world. He’s the one who ends up sitting on the Iron throne by the end of Winds of Winter, marrying Cersei or Danny or whatever.
You seem very invested in turning Euron into a savior-type figure.

TPTWP is said to be born from Aerys and Rhaella's line which should rule out Euron.....but it's also questionable how true that is when the Ghost of High Heart is getting her orders from Bloodraven. And he might be manipulating prophecy to get to a means to an end.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
You seem very invested in turning Euron into a savior-type figure.

TPTWP is said to be born from Aerys and Rhaella's line which should rule out Euron.....but it's also questionable how true that is when the Ghost of High Heart is getting her orders from Bloodraven. And he might be manipulating prophecy to get to a means to an end.
I’m not invested, just guessing. Euron in the show seems unimportant, just a baddie for the Greyjoy siblings to kill. In the books he sounds like the main bad guy, there’s not even a sign of the Night King so far.

But GRRM thinks that people who would have super powers would likely end up ruling, not just being advisors to kings.

I can see Euron becoming powerful enough to be the one who could stand against the Others. He wants to conquer Westeros and be king, so the Others would be standing in the way. He could save the world from a great darkness, but where does it say the prince will be good and the world a happy place?

Then again maybe it could be a repeat of the Night King, where he would marry the “Night Queen”, as one of the visions seemed to portay.

But yeah I think Victarion is blowing that horn and warging into Viserion, and if he is unable to find Daenerys and flies back west it might incite her to go west to get her “child” back.

Bloodraven makes me think of Varys. “For the realm.” But I think he’s good overall, he was just born with traits that makes people think he’s Dracula.

Edit: oh and if he marries Daenerys, then maybe he could have been mistaken to be part of the Targaryen line, since they usually intermarry. Or its his and Dany’s child, A Song of Salt and Fire:)

Oh and his sigil could be interpreted as him being crowned by the maesters. Old Town can be seen as Sauron’s tower. The maesters’ supposed conspiracy is to end magic, Euron wants to kill the gods.
 
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Oct 29, 2017
3,945
Been doing more reading, and now I think all the Asshai stuff, especially with the Fire & Blood book's story about Elissa Farman's ship ending up in Asshai even if it left to the sunset sea, means Dany, instead of leaving West, will take her fleet East on advice from Marwyn, which ties into Quaithe's repeated demand for Dany to go east in order to go west, and find the "truth". I think she'll invade Westeros from the west coast after circumventing Planetos east-ward (or there is some magic in Asshai leading west of Westeros). If so, she also ends up on the Iron Born's side of Westeros, it gives her as much cred as Euron for having gone to Asshai, with an Iron Born fleet no less, and Euron wanted her as queen so it ties in nicely for some drama on that point, although I would think Dany's rejection would lead him to chosing Cersei instead, going to Old Town to get some help from the maesters to figure out how to summon his kraken or whatever to attack Dany's fleet on the west coast (a nice tie in to his sigil; his eye crowned by the maesters's crows, who don't like the return of the dragons). Plus Aegon is on the east side and will possibly win Storm's End, I could see Euron managing to wreck Storm's End too, accomplishing what the sea god and wind goddess could not.
 
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Nov 6, 2017
4,883
Los Angeles
Been doing more reading, and now I think all the Asshai stuff, especially with the Fire & Blood book's story about Elissa Farman's ship ending up in Asshai even if it left to the sunset sea, means Dany, instead of leaving West, will take her fleet East on advice from Marwyn, which ties into Quaithe's repeated demand for Dany to go east in order to go west, and find the "truth". I think she'll invade Westeros from the west coast after circumventing Planetos east-ward (or there is some magic in Asshai leading west of Westeros). If so, she also ends up on the Iron Born's side of Westeros, it gives her as much cred as Euron for having gone to Asshai, with an Iron Born fleet no less, and Euron wanted her as queen so it ties in nicely for some drama on that point. I think it makes the most sense, plus Aegon is on the east side and will possibly win Storm's End. Dany West, Cersei in the center, Aegon in the East, Jon fucked up north with The Others coming down and requiring everyone south to stop fooling around. Aegon is probably marrying Arianne (or at least agree to), who most likely kills Oberyn and has Myrcella killed at some point after learning of his plan's screw up.
That was the original plan but GRRM has said we won't see Asshai anymore. We'll see it in flashbacks at best through Melisandre's POV.

Well, I guess it's still possible actually but we won't see Asshai from Dany's POV. We'll see her passing under it.

I still think we're going to see Daeneys landing on Dragonstone like on the show but with a burned Loras bowing down to her and becoming her knight.

It explains why GRRM parked him there of all places.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
That was the original plan but GRRM has said we won't see Asshai anymore. We'll see it in flashbacks at best through Melisandre's POV.

Well, I guess it's still possible actually but we won't see Asshai from Dany's POV. We'll see her passing under it.

I still think we're going to see Daeneys landing on Dragonstone like on the show but with a burned Loras bowing down to her and becoming her knight.

It explains why GRRM parked him there of all places.
I edited my post a bit.

The thing I couldn't figure is how the heck can she go back west without dragging the story to a major crawl, but her "remembering who she is" would work out with her dumping the rest of Essos and its slaves stuff. I would guess Dany wouldn't make it to Westeros by the end of TWoW, but ending with her arrival could work if it's the epilogue, and we only figure what the heck happened in ADoS through Melisandre's recollection, since she probably gets the heck out of Westeros after Jon resurrects early in TWoW. Also I can't help but think that her landing West works too well for the tie in to Euron. I can see her rejecting him, and he goes south to Old Town to reach power level over 9000 with the maester's help (who he then subdues, turning it into Sauron's tower).

Storm's End finally being taken down by "the storm gods" would work out nicely. Bye bye Aegon, and Euron has a queen after strutting such power to Cersei.

edit: And it even works great with Sam, The Sphinx, Connington being in old town, probably when Euron shows up, as all three would have a reason to work against him considering if he kills Aegon he probably kills Arianne at the same time since I'm sure she's marrying him, probably at Storm's End, like the Godsgrief tale, except this time the bridegroom isn't protected. I could never figure what the heck is this Sam/Sphinx/Old Town/Greyscaled Griff was going to be about, but it sort of starts to work out under that light, even if it sounds like it just padded the story needlessly.
 
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jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,075
So GRRM revealed the origin of Dany's three eggs in Fire and Blood? This is what he's interested in writing about? :P
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
Also The Gunslinger , I think that GRRM might have brought this idea back with the Sunchaser story in Fire & Blood, it really sounds like he might be trying to workout that Asshai can somehow get you to Westeros. "To touch the light, you must pass beneath the shadow", as in, to touch the sun (where it sets), you must pass through Asshai. Some Bermuda-Triangle-Magical thingy could work out.
edit2: Yeah ok, Asshai is probably too far, would be pointless. No idea how the heck George will deal with Qaithe's request then, other than ignore her. I can imagine Tyrion telling her to land in Lannisport though, to retake Casterly Rock and make it her base of operations. It would mean Aegon outplayed him, learning from their Cyvasse game: instead of putting his dragon over the mountain range (Dorne), he has Arianne come over to Storm's End, and it is Tyrion, partially out of his own desires to take Casterly Rock, who ends up far from the action.

---

Reached the point in The Damned Kings where the baby swap happens. Shit, GRRM even took that. I mean really, baby John the 1st swapped with a bastard also named John when they believe John the 1st will be poisoned, the decoy ends up being poisoned and dies in front of everyone so they can't swap him back, and real John the 1st only finds out he is King John in adulthood when his adoptive mother dies When he claims he is the true John the 1st he is not believed and dies in a dungeon. GRRM straight up took the story from the book, didn't even change the name, lol.

I am more certain than ever that Young Griff will be in Season 8 and be the one sitting on the throne. Jon will be remembered as Jon Snow, Ned Stark's bastard, who tried to usurp the throne, after betraying his Night Watch vows. Varys wins. Sansa ends up marrying Aegon (in the books I assume he first attempts to marry Arianne, but she dies when Euron destroys Storm's End or she is captured by Euron and given to Cersei). Sansa marrying Aegon after everything is done allows her to clean up her father's name and her own, it's also a repeat of her marriage to Joffrey since she has to kick Jon in the balls and have him fuck off north to the wall or have him executed as Aegon and co. seek to undermine all the stuff that happened in the north and nullify Jon's claim. "Power lies where people believe it does." Jon might be mock-executed though, I can see him go back north of the wall with free folk. King beyond the wall.

Introducing Young Griff so late would sounds like something D&D would do, and it would explain why they had to make most of the big changes they made like no Connington, the Dorne plot with Jaime/Bronn, etc. They can't be bringing in the Golden Company so late for nothing. It also explains why we know GRRM got angry at them cutting out Lady Stoneheart, but never heard a word about Aegon.

Watch The Others plot being finished by episode 3 or 4. They'll likely never even march south, and no one will really believe the stories about the big bad evil zombies, they'll say it was bull to support Jon and Dany's claims, it was her dragons wrecking the north, and so on. The sooner Jon wins, the less chance he has of having his actions recognized.
 
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Oct 29, 2017
3,945
Ah, I just realized, the rains of castamere can retroactively be about Tyrion. Imagine it being a discussion between Tyrion and his dead father, after the story is all over:

And who are you, the proud lord said, that I must bow so low? <- Remember "You are no son of mine". Tywin is asking who is Tyrion, why would he bow to this dwarf.
Only a cat of a different coat, that’s all the truth I know. <- Tyrion, saying he's a Lannister, even if a dwarf, and traitor to his family.
In a coat of gold or a coat of red, a lion still has claws, And mine are long and sharp, my lord, as long and sharp as yours. <- Again, Tyrion emphasizing that he is as much a Lannister as his father, even if he's been playing for and against the Lannisters.
And so he spoke, and so he spoke, that lord of Castamere, but now the rains weep o’er his hall, with no one there to hear. Yes now the rains weep o’er his hall, and not a soul to hear. <- Tyrion's trademark talking skills, but now his family members are all dead, he is all alone, no one will listen, he'll still be a despised Lannister and a dwarf to everyone, no matter what he says.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
400
Hello,

I am doing a re-read of the books in between watching the shows. For complicated (stupid) reasons, I never watched the show until this year and decided to finally get up to date before the final season airs. Years ago, I read Got, CoK and SoS but didn't get around to FfC and DwD. This time around, I've started the books whilst watching the show intermittently, which I'm actually really enjoying and the differences in story events doesn't really muddy the waters.

Here's what I've planned:

Read GoT (done)
Watch Season 1 (done)
Read CoK (done)
Watch Season 2 (done)
Read SoS, parts 1 and 2 (95% done)
Watch Season 3
Watch Season 4
Read FfC
Read DwD
Watch Season 5
Watch Season 6
Watch Season 7
...
all complete before Season 8 airs in April

I'm getting through it at a good pace and should be in a good place before the final season airs.

I have two questions:

Any thoughts on the order of books/seasons above?

and,

Should I read FfC first and then DwD, or read both concurrently in accordance with the "A Feast with Dragons" reading order?

Cheers!

edit: I've remained surprisingly spoiler-free all these years. I know literally nothing about what happens in books 5 and 6 and their respective TV seasons, so no spoilers please!!
 
OP
OP
louisacommie
Oct 25, 2017
10,553
New Jersey
Hello,

I am doing a re-read of the books in between watching the shows. For complicated (stupid) reasons, I never watched the show until this year and decided to finally get up to date before the final season airs. Years ago, I read Got, CoK and SoS but didn't get around to FfC and DwD. This time around, I've started the books whilst watching the show intermittently, which I'm actually really enjoying and the differences in story events doesn't really muddy the waters.

Here's what I've planned:

Read GoT (done)
Watch Season 1 (done)
Read CoK (done)
Watch Season 2 (done)
Read SoS, parts 1 and 2 (95% done)
Watch Season 3
Watch Season 4
Read FfC
Read DwD
Watch Season 5
Watch Season 6
Watch Season 7
...
all complete before Season 8 airs in April

I'm getting through it at a good pace and should be in a good place before the final season airs.

I have two questions:

Any thoughts on the order of books/seasons above?

and,

Should I read FfC first and then DwD, or read both concurrently in accordance with the "A Feast with Dragons" reading order?

Cheers!

edit: I've remained surprisingly spoiler-free all these years. I know literally nothing about what happens in books 5 and 6 and their respective TV seasons, so no spoilers please!!
I personally have never read a fan version that combines dance and feast

I think it be more managabe to read it as released
 
Oct 25, 2017
400
I'm leaning towards publication order as this is my first read through of both books. It's not like I'll have to wait years between books - I'll be reading both back to back.
 
Oct 26, 2017
657
Has anyone read the books with Kindle? I searched on reddit and it seems some people were saying there were a lot of misspellings of important characters and cities, but it might have been fixed now?
 
Oct 25, 2017
838
I read them on Kindle years and years ago and again recently on my reread of Feast/Dance. I don't recall any real issues.

I kinda want to buy all the books as hardcovers tho if only for the better access to looking at the map.
 
Oct 26, 2017
657
I read them on Kindle years and years ago and again recently on my reread of Feast/Dance. I don't recall any real issues.

I kinda want to buy all the books as hardcovers tho if only for the better access to looking at the map.
That's great to here.
I bought the mass market paperback version of the first three books and read the first book (maybe even twice) and a bit of the second but I had trouble reading them because English is not my native language and I was met with a lot of new words (I imagine even native speakers don't recognize a lot of these words since they aren't spoken often), so every time that happened I would stop and look for the definition of that word and made the process of reading really slow.
Kindle seems like a perfect solution for this problem.

There seem to be 2 kindle edition on Amazon.
This one with 4272 pages, and the other one which has 5600. Where does this difference come from? The latter has a preview for TWoW, but that obviously doesn't account for 1k+ difference in the number of pages. The latter also has the third and fifth books separated into 2 parts.
I'm not sure which version I should get, tbh.

Edit: Okay, the difference clearly comes from the third and fifth books being separated into two parts. God, I'm such a dumbass lol

Is there any reason for this? I read that some book collections on kindle come as one huge file instead of separate books, is there a way to know beforehand?
 
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Oct 26, 2017
657
I just talked to Amazon support and she told me the collection (the first one I linked to) comes as one giant file, which is a bit of a bummer.
Buying the books individually is $10 more expensive, and I don't know that any sale as coming so I'll probably just this one and start reading.
 

Morrigan

Armoring
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
8,889
Managed to avoid spoilers from s6 and 7? impressed.
Over a year after this post... yeah, I mostly had. Not everything, though.

But I finally caved in and watched the show anyway, because it's ending and they're gonna be everywhere and *sigh* so yeah. Now I can read all of the threads and bitch about everything! :D

For those curious, here's what I had spoiled from the show:
- Melisandre reviving Jon (predictable enough from the books, old fan theory)
- Melisandre being secretly old (same)
- Jon and Dany hooking up (same)
- Sansa marrying Ramsay and being raped by him (show-only nonsense)
- Tower of Joy making an appearance
- Littlefinger receiving a brutal end (this was spoiled thanks to a comment on Era in a politics thread... thanks dude)

Literally everything else from S5-6-7 had been unspoiled though, and there was plenty of "shock" moments I guess. Like the Frey Pie OMFG best TV moment ever.
Here are parts of the show that I think will happen in some way or other in the books:
- The first 3 lines above, about Mel and Jon, oh and R+L=J but we've known that since like 1996
- Myrcella and Tommen dying (obvious, gold shall be their shrouds)
- Shireen burning :( won't be Stannis though, or not in that way
- Hodor / Hold the door :'(
- Undead dragon (fuuuuu) melting the Wall
- Arya killing all the Freys like a gangster
- Dany re-conquering the Dothraki
 
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Oct 26, 2017
7,966
(I imagine even native speakers don't recognize a lot of these words since they aren't spoken often)
I read it translated and learned new words lol, though it was weirs reading parts of it in english since Brazil got the Portugal version adapted and not a proper Brazilian portuguese translation until book 5. The way you read the story changes massively as portugal’s portuguese sounds formal as hell for a brazilian

Just a random comment, tl;dr this series is good for your vocabulary xD
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
Watched this today and I have to say, even if usually their theories are crazy or farfetched, this one works.


There's not only the stuff mentioned in the video, but looking into Joanna Lannister's wiki (cause I forgot a lot of this) there is a lot in place that seems to have been written specifically for this reason:

Joanna went to King's Landing in 259 AC, for the coronation of King Jaehaerys II Targaryen, and remained as a lady-in-waiting for the future queen, Princess Rhaella Targaryen. There were rumors that Joanna gave her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of Jaehaerys's coronation, and that she briefly became Aerys's paramour after he ascended the Iron Throne. However, Grand Maester Pycelle insists these tales are baseless, as Tywin would not have married Joanna if they were true, "for he was ever a proud man and not one accustomed to feasting on another man's leavings."[6]
Pycelle's rejection implies Tywin would have been aware, but he may not have believed it, or refused to consider it, or ignored it.

At the wedding feast, Aerys drunkenly japed about how it was a pity the first night tradition was banned, and he took certain "unwonted liberties" with Joanna in the bedding ritual when the men at the feast had to disrobe the bride.
Not long thereafter, Joanna was dismissed by Queen Rhaella Targaryen from her service in King's Landing. While Rhaella turned a blind eye towards most of her husband's infidelities, she did not approve when it concerned one of her own ladies, several of whom were sent away from court. Joanna departed for Casterly Rock at once, and she seldom visited the capital afterwards.[6]
Kicked out for potentially having sex with Aerys.

Her influence on her husband was such that people say that Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdoms as Hand,[3] "but was ruled at home by his lady wife."[10]
Shows potential weakness from Tywin, possibly implying he was oblivious to her unfaithfulness. Reinforced by:
On their wedding day, the oft-grim Tywin smiled, a rare occurrence.
Basically, Tywin is infatuated with Joanna, making a manipulation or cognitive dissonance more likely.

King Aerys ordered Tywin to bring Joanna and the children to King's Landing when the children were old enough to travel, but Lord Tytos Lannister died before this could occur. Instead, Tywin, Aerys, Prince Rhaegar, and half the court went to the westerlands in 267 AC, where they remained for most of the next year.
Potential interest of Aerys in the twins and definitely still in Joanna.

Joanna attended the Anniversary Tourney in King's Landing in 272 AC, held to celebrate Aerys's tenth year on the Iron Throne. Aerys insulted Joanna by asking her if nursing her children had ruined her breasts, and the king refused the outraged Tywin's resignation the next day.
Implies Aerys' might have seen her breasts before, was fond of them.

Also, it would be pretty ironic if Tyrion was actually Tywin's only child. "You are no son of mine." Yeah, he is the only one.

I don't think it's necessarily true, it may just be a way to indicate how power can corrupt people, regardless of their lineage. But it wouldn't be far fetched.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,313
i haven't really been that involved recently, but i remember that back in the day much of the asoiaf fandom was really hostile to the idea of any of the lannisters being secret targs, to the point of absolutely refusing to even consider the possibility. now i don't know if it's actually going to be the case (it's certainly not a fact like euron = daario), but i don't see how anyone can deny that tyrion and/or the twins have been set up as potential targs. if it does happen, it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

and even if it's never explicitly stated, it would still be a totally legit interpretation to think of them as secret targs.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
i haven't really been that involved recently, but i remember that back in the day much of the asoiaf fandom was really hostile to the idea of any of the lannisters being secret targs, to the point of absolutely refusing to even consider the possibility. now i don't know if it's actually going to be the case (it's certainly not a fact like euron = daario), but i don't see how anyone can deny that tyrion and/or the twins have been set up as potential targs. if it does happen, it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

and even if it's never explicitly stated, it would still be a totally legit interpretation to think of them as secret targs.
I don't see any reason to believe Tyrion is a Targ, but I never read those.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,313
I don't see any reason to believe Tyrion is a Targ, but I never read those.
been a long time since i went through "the evidence," but there was so much circumstantial stuff that it certainly would have been set up since the start: his hair, his eyes, dragon dreams, loves charred meat, whole bunch of stuff i'm forgetting.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
been a long time since i went through "the evidence," but there was so much circumstantial stuff that it certainly would have been set up since the start: his hair, his eyes, dragon dreams, loves charred meat, whole bunch of stuff i'm forgetting.
I see. I think Tyrion will kill Drogon in S8. I think it’s the plan in the books too. His first chapter was about his fascination with them as a child, and I think now he will have to kill the last dragon.
 

Morrigan

Armoring
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
8,889
So sick of secret Targs tbh, I hope it's not true.

I groaned when the theory about Aegon turned out to be true in Dance. Really didn't want it to be.
 
Feb 15, 2018
468
i haven't really been that involved recently, but i remember that back in the day much of the asoiaf fandom was really hostile to the idea of any of the lannisters being secret targs, to the point of absolutely refusing to even consider the possibility. now i don't know if it's actually going to be the case (it's certainly not a fact like euron = daario), but i don't see how anyone can deny that tyrion and/or the twins have been set up as potential targs. if it does happen, it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

and even if it's never explicitly stated, it would still be a totally legit interpretation to think of them as secret targs.
In TWOIAF GRRM went out of his way to put Joanna and Aerys in the same place with a big blow up at about the time Tyrion must have been conceived. And for the time Cersei and Jaime would have been conceived he had Joanna seldom visiting KL. Tyrion is going to be a Targ and he's going to ride Viserion and GRRM isn't really being that subtle about it, he coloured and named the dragon for him.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
In TWOIAF GRRM went out of his way to put Joanna and Aerys in the same place with a big blow up at about the time Tyrion must have been conceived. And for the time Cersei and Jaime would have been conceived he had Joanna seldom visiting KL. Tyrion is going to be a Targ and he's going to ride Viserion and GRRM isn't really being that subtle about it, he coloured and named the dragon for him.
Are you sure the timing doesn't favor Jaime/Cersei?

Also, I think Tyrion doesn't ride a dragon, I think he will lead the attack to kill the last dragon (Drogon) when it attacks King's Landing when it's on the loose and Dany is AWOL or dead.

Tyrion being a secret Targ would ruin his story with Tywin's. Listen to The Reins of Castamere, it sounds like Tyrion speaking to Tywin after everything is over (the first line being Tywin, the rest being Tyrion), how he's as much of a Lannister as his father.
 
Feb 15, 2018
468
Are you sure the timing doesn't favor Jaime/Cersei?

Also, I think Tyrion doesn't ride a dragon, I think he will lead the attack to kill the last dragon (Drogon) when it attacks King's Landing when it's on the loose and Dany is AWOL or dead.

Tyrion being a secret Targ would ruin his story with Tywin's. Listen to The Reins of Castamere, it sounds like Tyrion speaking to Tywin after everything is over (the first line being Tywin, the rest being Tyrion), how he's as much of a Lannister as his father.
Joanna died birthing Tyrion in 273 and the big blow up Tywin tries to resign over was in 272.

Joanna gave birth to the twins in 266. She was sent from KL "not long after" her wedding in 263 and "seldom visited".