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A song of ice and fire |OT| The never ending Autumn
- Thread starter louisacommie
- Start date
The sad part is not only he does he have no book, the longer he takes writing, the lower the quality of the book anyway.
Except this is really wrong. ADWD is by far the worst book of the series. It's an unedited mess of words with no structure, a ton of bloat, and a lot of inconsistent prose. Half the book is just bad. It was rushed out the door unfinished because the HBO show had launched and because GRRM became too big to let his works be edited.
It's true that it's an unfinished book but it's still a better book than A Clash of King because the substance is just better even if the framing isn't close to perfect.
Also what is structure? How do you define structure?
Is structure just the set up, climax and resolution? Is it how the story intertwines with itself? Etc.
It's hard to debate structure until you define what that means to you.
Facts.
More facts, AFFC/ADWD are the best books in the series.
Man, I thought you were cool...
AFfC/ADwD were slogs that went nowhere, slowly.
the first three books were not bloated messes and that alone makes them better.
I mean where is nowhere? There are essays dedicated to where AFFC and ADWD are headed toward.
And pacing isn't the end all be all. It's just one factor that makes a story.
GRRM has even talked about this in his Ice and Fire foreword that if you're just in this for the plot then his story probably isn't for you because the plot is window-dressing to him, he wants the story to feel like a journey and for you to feel like you're there.
Anyways, them being slogs is very much an individual experience. They were less of a slog to me than ACOK were.
I don't know about "better", but I certainly remember my time with ADWD more fondly, probably due to A) dem Theon chapters :( and B) the zeitgeist of its release was just madness. I must've been... 14 at the time, and I had I only read the other books a few months before (2010 I believe?) but even I got caught up in the frenzy.
ACOK, even during my re-reads feels like the "slowest" and most mundane of the books, but it's also pretty rewarding by the end with the Blackwater and the House of the Undying. AFFC is better than both though, I know that one generally get a lot of flack but I really enjoyed my time with it- probably due to Cersei, she's just fucking insane and I love it. Even the Brienne chapters couldn't deter my love for that book too much.
I was being very hyperbolic :) I do think that the first three books the story and plot was the main draw, and they moved fast, and that came almost to a complete standstill with AFfC and ADwD, he got to involved in details, and following Prince Martell for a whole book, just so he can open and release dragons was really a slog (yes yes, "can lead to Martells not siding with Danerys" but that'd require some pretty convoluted choices by the Martells imo).
As others have mentioned, ADwD at least suffered a lot from poor (read as no) editing.
I think there were pictures of the editors remarks somewhere where GRRM pretty much just nixxes all the suggestions from the editor?
Anyway, yes, it's very much an individual experience. I loved A Game of Thrones, Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords, AFfC was my least liked (Ironborn had nothing of much interested for me), and ADwD got too involved with details, and didn't move the story much.
As a sidenote, one thing about the three earlier books was that you didn't necessarily have to follow every character and get the minutia of every detail. I really liked not having a Robb PoV, getting the that part of the story through others retelling of it. I think it's very telling that GRRM nowdays regrets not having him as a PoV character. And that mindset shows in AFfC and ADwD.
The story wasn't the biggest draw for me from the series. The characters were.
Like one thing that AFFC and ADWD has over ACOK is that they're more in-depth character studies. If you care more about plot movement than knowing who these characters are then yeah, these books are going to be fucking frustrating.
The Brienne and Quentyn chapters aren't necessary but they're pretty cool story ideas. The female knight and the prince on an adventure quest that ends with them completely fucked rather than succeeding through pure grit and luck.
The only reason that I would've eliminated Quentyn from having a POV is so there would've been more space for the Battle of Fire to be the climax for ADWD.
This makes me so sad :(
It's been so long, and with no end in sight. I still want him to finish the books at his pace and not rush things, but I feel hopeless about the chances of this story ever being finished
I think the problem with that book (and AFFC) is that they feel unfinished and unfocused plot wise, more so than the previous 3 books which each felt complete and focused even if they were all part of a much larger story line. Pacing is also an issue with these 2 books, but that is more a problem if the individual reading likes the pace or not. I see both AFFC and ADWD as a combined book that GRRM didn't even get to finish. I think the problem will resolve itself if he finishes the whole story, and like he says in the above quote, history will be way kinder, specially to those 2 books if Ice and Fire ever gets finished.
I'd prefer to go back to the earlier books (in particularly ASoS) where the characters were interesting and the plot could progress at a steady pace, and we didn't have to choose because they were written for both.
I'm about to start reading the book series for the first time, but I wanted to check in here to ask whether my reading order should instead start with the marginal stories and go through all the narratives chronologically (I think the first one then would be Dunk & Egg?). Is there anyone here who approached the series in this way?
I don't expect that either choice will affect my enjoyment of the series, really, but I do like tracking how prior events influence later situations.
I don't expect that either choice will affect my enjoyment of the series, really, but I do like tracking how prior events influence later situations.
The side stories rely a lot on previous knowledge of the world, so I'd say read the main story, then branch out. It's good to know things about the world and stuff, but book one is already pretty hard to follow compared to other books if you're not used to remembering names, so reading about the world might get in the way when the focus is following the main story...
What i wanna say is... you might get overwhelmed with stuff you don't need right now, main series is self suficient, the other works are more like extra content you might wanna read or not and you'll get some things better after you finished at least the first three books
Read the main books in the order they were released, then you can dig into all the side stuff. I would read dunk and egg books after the main series, and then his Westeros history works.
I envy you so much being able to read it all for the first time right now, just know that you have at least another 5 years wait for the next book tho :)
You could start with the novellas but those two stories are written more like a history account.
Dunk and Egg is good so that would probably work. It would be interesting to see what you think. There's a tone change between the main series and Dunk & Egg.
Dunk and egg could work, but it's nice to have some knowledge about the world before experiencing it, as it's not a finished compilation :/ not that The maind series is , but one of these is going to be finished, the other? Idk :/
These are all great tips, thank you.
I think I'll just start with the main novels, then. Part of the reason I wanted to ask is because I've watched the television series, so I wasn't sure whether that would offer enough background to start with the earliest chronological stories. But I'm fine to wait on the outside ones, since that will probably help to fill up the time when I eventually join you all in waiting for the The Winds of Winter.
I do feel lucky to only be starting them now. I have a bunch of friends who are like so many of the folks in this thread and dealing with the pain of waiting for years. I didn't even plan on reading them until I found the main books in a stack on the sidewalk a few days ago, so I took it as a sign from the old gods and the new.
I think I'll just start with the main novels, then. Part of the reason I wanted to ask is because I've watched the television series, so I wasn't sure whether that would offer enough background to start with the earliest chronological stories. But I'm fine to wait on the outside ones, since that will probably help to fill up the time when I eventually join you all in waiting for the The Winds of Winter.
I do feel lucky to only be starting them now. I have a bunch of friends who are like so many of the folks in this thread and dealing with the pain of waiting for years. I didn't even plan on reading them until I found the main books in a stack on the sidewalk a few days ago, so I took it as a sign from the old gods and the new.
The first book is pretty similar to the TV show not mentioning some differences in characterizationz
Book 2 is where extremely large differences start to creep in and the differences get bigger from there.
Also some similar twists have different payoffs.
Those are the parts I'm really excited for. I know of a couple of the differences so far, but only vague things like Lady Stoneheart and Arya having a very different personality, but I'm looking forward to the surprises.
All I'll say is that your impression of AFFC and ADWD will be interesting.
Would recommend you read the TWOW sample chapters that are already out once you're finished with the books.
I think AKotSK is the most enjoyable to read. AFFC and ADWD sadly often have boring POVs, which AKotSK avoids by having only Dunk.
New interview with GRRM:
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/97g1g9/highlights_from_grrm_interview_with_john_picacio/
My most interesting highlights:
Bloodraven/The Three Eyed Crow took Dark Sister(one of the two Targaryen Valyrian Steel Swords) with him to the Wall confirming a long held fan theory.
Bittersteel probably didn't have any kids.
Davos isn't really based on anyone. Cressen was the initial POV but he ended up dying and GRRM didn't want us in Stannis' head.
Also when asked about the red comet coming back or the missing Clegane sister, GRRM wouldn't answer.
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/97g1g9/highlights_from_grrm_interview_with_john_picacio/
My most interesting highlights:
Bloodraven/The Three Eyed Crow took Dark Sister(one of the two Targaryen Valyrian Steel Swords) with him to the Wall confirming a long held fan theory.
Bittersteel probably didn't have any kids.
Davos isn't really based on anyone. Cressen was the initial POV but he ended up dying and GRRM didn't want us in Stannis' head.
Also when asked about the red comet coming back or the missing Clegane sister, GRRM wouldn't answer.
I don't remember hearing about a Clegane sister.
Dark Star, TEC could still have it, giving it to Bran, but since he can't walk that wouldn't be very useful. You'd think Jon would end up with it, but he has Longclaw. Maybe he'd give the later to Jorah, and unlike in the show he would take it.
It's mentioned in AGOT:
Gregor's sister and father were likely murdered by Gregor.
And the books indicate Daenerys is going to give Jorah a Valyrian Steel Sword:
But....I don't think Jon is going to wield Dark Sister. Actually, I think he's going to wield Oathkeeper eventually considering it's the Stark sword now in Targaryen colors which contrasts with him being a Targaryen in Stark coloring.
Idk who would wield Dark Sister. Maybe Hodor with Bran's mind inside him. They'd do damage.
I'm nearing the end of another re-read and came across this bizarre non-sequitur in Melisandre's chapter:
"The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."
A bag of fingerbones!? What the heck is she possibly alluding to? Did she steal Davos' luck before Blackwater and is planning on impersonating him for some reason? It's just so out there.
"The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."
A bag of fingerbones!? What the heck is she possibly alluding to? Did she steal Davos' luck before Blackwater and is planning on impersonating him for some reason? It's just so out there.
There's an implication especially once you take in Davos' chapters that Davos is going to go abandon Stannis and go south to save his family from Jon Connington and "Aegon" while Melisandre chooses that opportunity to impersonate or have someone impersonate Davos by using a glamor to convince him to burn Shireen.
I haven't heard that theory. So Davos wouldn't go to Skagos to bring back Rickon anymore? I haven't heard anyone talk about this line before so it really caught me off guard when I read it last night. It's a really weird thing to say, too. If Jon wasn't distracted by the Mance reveal, he might have been like "Wait a second, bag of fingerbones?"
Davos still goes to Skagos.
It goes:
Davos goes to Skagos-> grabs Rickon-> takes him to White Harbor and drops him off-> that's where he'd hear about Aegon's invasion-> he realizes his children are in danger/or they're held captive-> Davos has to make a choice between family and his duty-> Davos chooses family and journeys south.
Would be a good parallel to Stannis who has to choose between family and duty and chooses duty.
Wasn't it just Melissandre explaining how she got the lord of bones to pass for Mance? I doubt she got Davos' finger bones, seems more like a mere inside joke.
I think the plan was for Shireen to be burned when her greyscale activates again (strongly forwarned), which would push Davos over the edge against Melissandre and Stannis as a result, to eventually become Jon's hand like in the show. There is no way Davos wasn't supposed to become Jon's, no way GRRM didn't tell D&D that.
I think the plan was for Shireen to be burned when her greyscale activates again (strongly forwarned), which would push Davos over the edge against Melissandre and Stannis as a result, to eventually become Jon's hand like in the show. There is no way Davos wasn't supposed to become Jon's, no way GRRM didn't tell D&D that.
There's 0% chance that Davos becomes Jon's Hand. As GRRM already said, the show is not a draft of his work. They've killed off characters that survive to the end of the series.
Besides Davos' story isn't about finding a worthy king. It's about the dichotomy of duty and family and the immediate good versus the greater good.
D & D just like putting actors together to bounce them off of each other because they think it's interesting.
This becomes more apparent when you read D & D's interviews on their thought process behind a lot of scenes which amounts to "wouldn't it be cool if these two characters interacted so let's get them in a room together".
I don't know, there's a lot of ways Davos can end up linked to Jon; if Rickon dies because of him, if he saves Rickon, if he saves Rickon and Stannis dies Rickon becomes the king in the north to many who supported Rob, and I don't think Davos is going south since his story has been very much tied to Melissandre I think he's sticking around her.
We'll see (maybe), but I think it's more likely than not that he ends up close to Jon, more than going south to tie up with Aegon's story. Aegon would be the "true heir", but I think that's the point; Davos will learn that supporting the true heir is not necessarily the right to do. Supporting Jon instead would fit with that idea, and it's the take they took in the show, which I think makes perfect sense with how the character has been brought up.
Agreed. Anything involving and related to Stannis is a mess in the show, and unfortunately Davos is a primary causality- which is a shame because the actor does actually do well with the stuff he's given. He was even pretty convincing in his devotion to Stannis in the show (though Stannis himself only rarely has moments to warrant his devotion). Add to that the complete omission of any meaningful reference to Davos' family post season 2 and atheist Davos (oh aren't we just so down with the kids Dave!) and !show! Davos in the recent seasons is only barely saved by Liam Cunningham.
Considering how linked Stannis is to Davos, one can trace how the book/show difference in one impacts the other- for example, in the show Stannis is seemingly a true believe of R'hllor and does not hesitate in burning heretics, the implication being that "religion = bad"- thus Davos has to be an agnostic/atheist as he is our moral center on team Dragonstone.
Stannis in the show isn't a "true believer", he goes along with Melissandre's requests but often with doubt, and ultimately comes to regret it all. I saw the show before I read the books and could read the same internal conflict which I then saw in the books afterwards too.
I think Stannis is one of those characters that GRRM has said survives to the end. (Not as endgame king but as a member of the Night's Watch)
Rickon's dead-meat but he's not dying anytime soon as one of the pre-requisites of a Shaggydog story is that there is a long build up before it farts out.
I think it would be redundant. We already saw Melisandre and Davos lay out their philosophies in ASOS and neither agreed with each other.
Davos sees every innocent life as sacred and Melisandre is willing to burn kids to save the world as is Stannis.
One thing to keep in mind is that if GRRM had intended for Davos to partner up with Jon then he would've given Davos and Jon a scene in ASOS or ADWD but he never has Jon and Davos interact.
Davos' story is about balancing his increasingly hard duty against his morality and family. I think his endgame state is finally abandoning Stannis for his family not for another king/queen.
Going south to save his own family achieves that but even if his fate is not there, I'm pretty sure that Davos' endgame is to make Edric Storm the new Lord of Storm's End and to help him rule.
(No Gendry is probably never going to become Lord of Storm's End. He's an uneducated peasant that isn't very pleasant to be around and worships R'hllor. He's mini-Stannis.)
Book Stannis Baratheon does actually believe in R'hllor. He doesn't at first but he gets there later on through ASOS to ADWD. It's very notable by how he talks.
It's just that for Stannis, believing in a god isn't the same as worshipping one.
Like Jon Snow believes in the old gods too but he doesn't worship them.
It's just they don't let religon take over their minds.
The only concepts that Stannis and Jon are fanatic about are duty and honor.
This last part just reminds me how there is no way the stories can be told in the remaining two books lol, poor George. I could see him helping would Edric, but he's been so long gone. Could be a sort of epilogue bit though, doesn't have to be dwelt on. I do feel after the story is over, there won't be one king, no more ruler sitting on the iron throne ruling over all seven kingdoms.
Oh, I think it's possible if you want to believe GRRM that there are less than 13 POVS by the end of the TWOW.
Like the beginning TWOW sample chapters already positions a few POV characters to be killed off at the beginning plus the more POVS meet up at the same spot, the faster the plot goes because each chapter moves another character's story forward.
I think at most a 600 page eighth book might be necessary to round everything out.
Anyways, there will be no throne for sure as KL is obviously going up in smokes a la Sodom and Gomorrah (as is Oldtown) but I think there is going to be an endgame king/queen. I have very big ideas on who that person is. No, it's not Daenerys.
On Edric, well I don't think Davos putting Edric on Storm's End needs to be a big storyline. He just has to be at the right place at the right time and for Edric to show up at an opportune moment and that's partially why Davos going south would work with that since Davos knows where Edric is(Lys).
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I was thinking, since the last book is titled A Dream of Spring, I'm thinking it ends with winter settling in, with people not knowing how long it will last.
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