And GRRM just confirmed/heavily implied that Aegon the Conqueror vaguely knew about the northern threat and might have unified Westeros in preparation for it.
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A song of ice and fire |OT| The never ending Autumn
- Thread starter louisacommie
- Start date
Aegon tried to unite the kingdoms to protect them from the eventual threat, and now there is another Aegon (well two) facing this threat.
I still think Aegon (not Jon Aegon) will end up king. Jon will finally realize that he's no bastard, that he's highborn, but will let go. He'll realize that what he thought he needed most was not what he really wanted. The same could happen with Daenerys but I suspect Jon leaves north with Val.
He will sit it but not past the end.
As I've said before, I think GRRM is trying to put Jon in Robert's shoes after he loses everything. The hero gets the crown but what did he lose with Daenerys as Jon's Lyanna.
You could also see Jon as Aegon III with Daenerys as Rhaenyra and Aegon as Aegon II.
Aegon sits the throne, Daenerys dies before she can and Jon takes it once Aegon is dealt with but he's just completely miserable being king.
GRRM tipped his hand here:
Also GRRM even calls the war between Daenerys and Aegon the Second Dance of Dragons and this was a description used for Aegon II:
I'm willing to bet that Prince Doran has Aegon the Conqueror's crown and the High Sparrow will place it on his head plus we know the Golden Company has Blackfyre too.
Aegon sits the throne, Dany kills him in the second dance and takes it, gets thrown off it by popular uprising, Tyrion takes it in her aftermath, Jon defeats Tyrion but doesn't take the throne, has his hour of the wolf and brokers the marriage pact that consolidates the north and south again and sits Arya as queen on the IT.
One thing I realized recently is that there is no actual link between R'hllor and fire. It seems every single time fire is mentioned, George implies that there's a trick to it. But characters do have visions, some come back to life, and so on.
I see every test Jon is being put to is about committing himself to the realm, or his own ego. The stakes keep rising, and if the show is any indication he'll leave the watch to help the north, and I can see him getting the justification to try and unite the kingdoms to face the Others even as leader of the NW, but then he would get to a point where he would have to chose to the throne or go back to the NW, and I think he would take the later. But in the show, he's literally "king in the north", and if that was GRRM's direction then it does sound unlikely that he would go back to the NW, but I find it extremely doubtful that Jon could ever make a claim for the throne after Aegon shows up, no one would believe Ned Stark's bastard is actually the true heir to the Iron Throne. So he'd have to take it by force, which sounds impossible unless Daenerys does first and he marries her and then she dies, which also sounds impossible.
I just think it would make sense that Jon's final test would be: do you let a dupe with your identity sit on the throne for the realm's sake, and live the rest of your life as The Bastard at the Night Watch or beyond the wall, or do you play The Game of Thrones? I don't see him taking the later option. He could, but it sounds like there's too little time left for him to get there, because that would require a whole book to get him from "Ned's bastard" to sitting on the Iron Throne.
Also, Ramsey pretty much represents Jon's Id, a bastard trying to make a name for himself by becoming king. I think he's a lesson for Jon.
I see every test Jon is being put to is about committing himself to the realm, or his own ego. The stakes keep rising, and if the show is any indication he'll leave the watch to help the north, and I can see him getting the justification to try and unite the kingdoms to face the Others even as leader of the NW, but then he would get to a point where he would have to chose to the throne or go back to the NW, and I think he would take the later. But in the show, he's literally "king in the north", and if that was GRRM's direction then it does sound unlikely that he would go back to the NW, but I find it extremely doubtful that Jon could ever make a claim for the throne after Aegon shows up, no one would believe Ned Stark's bastard is actually the true heir to the Iron Throne. So he'd have to take it by force, which sounds impossible unless Daenerys does first and he marries her and then she dies, which also sounds impossible.
I just think it would make sense that Jon's final test would be: do you let a dupe with your identity sit on the throne for the realm's sake, and live the rest of your life as The Bastard at the Night Watch or beyond the wall, or do you play The Game of Thrones? I don't see him taking the later option. He could, but it sounds like there's too little time left for him to get there, because that would require a whole book to get him from "Ned's bastard" to sitting on the Iron Throne.
Also, Ramsey pretty much represents Jon's Id, a bastard trying to make a name for himself by becoming king. I think he's a lesson for Jon.
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Well, Jon already left the Night's Watch at the end of ADWD. He explicitly deserted his post to save Arya.
Oh, I don't think Jon is going to rule as Aegon. That'll be the irony of history but I think his claim will be that he was Daenerys' husband (and having a child together). The world will remember him as Ned Stark's bastard.
You're right that there's no time for a war between Aegons so you could see what happened to Aegon II happen to Aegon VI. He gets poisoned while he's in the official capacity as king for Westeros. Maybe gets poisoned especially by Arya who is an assassin.
Then you have a succession crisis and you can have a Great Council called and everyone has to vote between claimants like Edric Storm, Jon(as Dany's husband and the father of their child), Dany's baby, Mya Stone etc. That'd be interesting.
That's how Egg/Aegon V got the throne, Aemon's established a parallel between Egg and Jon plus Catelyn Stark said that's what the realm should do:
I could see Jon forcing his way to take the Iron Throne if Stannis loses; if he doesn't take it, the Watch would likely be attacked by the Boltons + Lannisters for being traitors. But the Lannisters are already losing support by the end of ADWD, the way is set for Aegon who wouldn't attack The Watch. I can't even see how Daenerys can take the throne if Aegon is around. Actually Varys could pull it off: have Aegon win the throne with popular support, convince Daenerys to support him, and then have him die. It's the easy way to get Daenerys on the throne, but I don't see why Varys would support her over Aegon.
edit: I can also imagine all the Starks dying other than Sansa, and ending up in their wolves.
edit2: Just realized, Arya's weird murder of the night watch deserter (which I thought was poorly handled) I guess precludes her having to figure out how she feels about Jon once he does the same.
edit3: Also, I don't think Tyrion is likely to kill Penny. I think when this is foreshadowed (him shooting Tywin, but then seeing Penny), it's an omen that Tyrion might miss the one person who does love him, by looking for "wherever whores go" instead. Penny loves him, and he doesn't see it or doesn't want to accept it.
edit4!: Aegon was supposed to meet Daenerys, and one would think this was Varys and Illyrio's plan: build up Daenerys' power, keep Aegon hidden, and if she succeeds have him marry her. Having Aegon and co. travel around seemed extremely careless but whatever. In any case, Aegon goes west because of Tyrion's advice. How is this supposed to play into Illyrio and Varys' plot? They couldn't have anticipated that, and now there's a split in their team. In the show, Varys and Tyrion end up with Daenerys, but there are signs that Varys will likely betray her (she threatens him against it, but without an Aegon (yet, at least) one wonders who he would betray her for, unless he plans to take down the Iron Throne itself to put only a council of sorts in power). In the books, I'm thinking Varys stays in Westeros, and will become counselor to Aegon, while Tyrion will be Daenerys', and I assume this would end up pitting Aegon against Daenerys, Varys against Tyrion.
edit: I can also imagine all the Starks dying other than Sansa, and ending up in their wolves.
edit2: Just realized, Arya's weird murder of the night watch deserter (which I thought was poorly handled) I guess precludes her having to figure out how she feels about Jon once he does the same.
edit3: Also, I don't think Tyrion is likely to kill Penny. I think when this is foreshadowed (him shooting Tywin, but then seeing Penny), it's an omen that Tyrion might miss the one person who does love him, by looking for "wherever whores go" instead. Penny loves him, and he doesn't see it or doesn't want to accept it.
edit4!: Aegon was supposed to meet Daenerys, and one would think this was Varys and Illyrio's plan: build up Daenerys' power, keep Aegon hidden, and if she succeeds have him marry her. Having Aegon and co. travel around seemed extremely careless but whatever. In any case, Aegon goes west because of Tyrion's advice. How is this supposed to play into Illyrio and Varys' plot? They couldn't have anticipated that, and now there's a split in their team. In the show, Varys and Tyrion end up with Daenerys, but there are signs that Varys will likely betray her (she threatens him against it, but without an Aegon (yet, at least) one wonders who he would betray her for, unless he plans to take down the Iron Throne itself to put only a council of sorts in power). In the books, I'm thinking Varys stays in Westeros, and will become counselor to Aegon, while Tyrion will be Daenerys', and I assume this would end up pitting Aegon against Daenerys, Varys against Tyrion.
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Aegon is nothing to do with Jon, he's key to Dany's arc.
He'll be loved and Dany will war him and kill him and that will be the crowning on the narrative that Dany is a Mad Queen, come to finish her father's work and punish Westeros for the fall of her family. They'll say she killed her brother for his claim, her husband for his khalasar, her child for her dragons and now her nephew for the throne. And the job will be hard, and she'll be bad at it, and most everyone will abandon her and she'll eventually get tossed off the throne. And so she will then need to face the central question of her arc, is she the one thing she fears? Is she another mad Targaryen like they all said, a tyrant lusting for power.
Then she finds Jon. Her justification for defeating Aegon will be that he was a fake, Jon she'll come to understand is true and the real head of House Targaryen. And so she'll have a choice, she either cedes power to Jon and accepts him as her overlord, or she doesn't, and proves herself a hypocrite and the mad queen the realm called her.
He'll be loved and Dany will war him and kill him and that will be the crowning on the narrative that Dany is a Mad Queen, come to finish her father's work and punish Westeros for the fall of her family. They'll say she killed her brother for his claim, her husband for his khalasar, her child for her dragons and now her nephew for the throne. And the job will be hard, and she'll be bad at it, and most everyone will abandon her and she'll eventually get tossed off the throne. And so she will then need to face the central question of her arc, is she the one thing she fears? Is she another mad Targaryen like they all said, a tyrant lusting for power.
Then she finds Jon. Her justification for defeating Aegon will be that he was a fake, Jon she'll come to understand is true and the real head of House Targaryen. And so she'll have a choice, she either cedes power to Jon and accepts him as her overlord, or she doesn't, and proves herself a hypocrite and the mad queen the realm called her.
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I can't we dany invading westeros not being like atleast 2 big books. No way can it finish in 7
I'm thinking she shows up in Meereen with the Dothrakis to save the day, no chapters spent figuring out how she got to lead them unlike the show. She has Drogon with her, whereas in the show they had to keep him mysteriously out so she could be captured and do a repeat of season 2, but she already came to the "Fire and blood" conclusion, so why waste time with that. This can happen pretty early on in TWoW.
The problem is more Jorah and Tyrion plus Marwyn and Victarion having to show up. They have to arrive all early, except Victarion who would be last, to build up their relationship with Dany, especially Tyrion's. When Victarion arrives, a single chapter ending with a proposal as a cliffhanger could make room for her arriving in Westeros in her next chapter following a bit of a time skip after a lot of chapters set in Westeros. Martin tends to make the "heroes" look bad from a certain perspective, and her arriving with Dothrakis, Ironborns, dragons, and Tyrion as her hand would make her look pretty damn bad.
I still think it would have been great to end Danys chapters when her dragons hatched, and never read another chapter about her until she lands in Westeros, only hearing rumors. Then when she finally arrives with her fleet of barbarians and pirates and dragons and the imp as hand, we get a chapter titled Daenerys, and finally get to read who has she become since we last saw her, were the rumors true?
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Nah. One thing is that GRRM is cutting down POVs. According to him, there's less than 13 POVs by the end of the book.
Tyrion and Daenerys will be together so their story will go at double the speed and Aegon doesn't have a dragon. Basically, it'll be a bloody curbstomp in Daenerys' favor until she hears about the White Walkers.
Like even the war of the Five Kings which was a lot more even didn't even last 2 books. That goes from the the end of AGOT to the middle of ASOS.
I agree about Aegon taking the throne, In the ADWD epilogue, Randyl Tarly is sent to Storm's End to deal with Aegon and Connington. I'd bet money that he will parlay with Connington and then switch sides. With most of the Tyrell forces dealing with Euron and the rest at his command thanks to Tarly, I don't think Aegon will have much trouble sacking King's Landing. I'd expect it to be a bloody affair though, given Connington's views on his failure during Robert's Rebellion and his promise never to make the same mistakes again.
Victarion is already there in Meereen by early TWOW before Daenerys ever shows up. I don't think Daenerys is going back to Meereen tbh.
With the dragons loose plus the ironborn there plus the Shavepate in control of the city plus the pale mare running rampant through the city plus the Unsullied & Barristan fighting the slavers outside the gates, I think Meereen is going to be turned into a hole in the ground.
And I think all the survivors are going to regroup at Volantis with Daenerys frying her enemies there and being proclaimed Azhor Ahai by the High Priest of R'hllor(Benerro) as Aegon is proclaimed King of Westeros by the High Sparrow.
I can't imagine Tyrion and Jorah going all the way back to Volantis to THEN meet Daenerys. They have to meet her at Meereen. Victarion already being there before Daenerys arrives makes sense as it gives him an opportunity to tilt the battle to get her favor rather than having another one show up at court trying to win her heart. He might even succeed in taming at least one of the two wild dragons. Plus, he's many folds more of a badboy than Daario, so something has to happen between those two. Volantis is on the way to Westeros anyway.
He would need help to tame him, neither dragons can just show up looking for a rider. I think Quentyn was originally written as Aegon, a mummer's dragon who ends up burned by the dragons after attempting to tame them due to having believed in the tale constructed around him, and Martin changed it along the way.
I was rethinking about the stone dragon prophecy. Melissandre fucked up. I think you are wrong Gunsligner to think Stannis survives, I think the pink letter is real, he's dead, Ramsay has his magic sword, and Melissandre gets Selyse to agree to burn Shireen to resurrect the stone dragon. It fails, because the prophecy was fulfilled already by Daenerys and her eggs. Heck, even worst would be Jon agreeing to burn Shireen, or Jon is resurrected under the presumption that it's thanks to Shireen being burned.
Random guess: Patchface freaks the fuck out after Shireen is burned and his hidden painted-over greyscale (which he transmitted to Shireen) breaks out and starts to wreck everyone at The Wall and elsewhere. Sam saves the day with the cure first used to save Connington who leaves for Old Town to save his ass.
Martin's said that Tyrion and Daenerys don't meet until the latter half of TWOW but they're coming home. That sounds like they're on their way home when they meet.
Martin has confirmed that Stannis is alive and D & D have confirmed that Shireen will eventually be burned Stannis.
Maybe. It depends. The new Dance could be a 3 way war between one Targ that can't ride dragons(Aegon), a Targ that can ride dragons(Dany) and a non-Targ that rides dragons (Euron).
No, Dance of Dragons is House Targaryen needlessly tearing itself apart and the realm along with it, on dragons. Dany and Euron are same team until he screws her over, her whole ADWD arc was all about preparing her for him, the new and improved Daario that she'll no longer hold back from.
IGN NEWS / 20 NOV 2018 11:47 AM PST
GEORGE R.R. MARTIN IS 'MAD' HE HASN'T FINISHED WINDS OF WINTER TOO
We'll probably be treated to news of his editing of another installment of Wild Cards next week, then.
GEORGE R.R. MARTIN IS 'MAD' HE HASN'T FINISHED WINDS OF WINTER TOO
We'll probably be treated to news of his editing of another installment of Wild Cards next week, then.
Fire and Blood Volume I is out now. The good stuff starts at Jaehaerys' reign imo.
Im halfway through Jaehaerys' reign and the whole undercurrent of the narrative is a Baratheon-Lannister-Velaryon-Hightower fight for supremacy where each tries to be the #2 house to House Targaryen.
Im halfway through Jaehaerys' reign and the whole undercurrent of the narrative is a Baratheon-Lannister-Velaryon-Hightower fight for supremacy where each tries to be the #2 house to House Targaryen.
I've been going through The World of Ice and Fire, have you read that?
I just made it to the Targaryen Kings chapter. I wonder if I could skip over them for now, assuming that they'll be covered more in depth in Fire and Blood.
How is the book written like? I don't care about world-building stuff, so if this is the equivalent of a Wiki I'll just read the wikis.
I read the first chapter but had to stop myself so I can finish the Witcher book I am on. I did not know that Aegon was actually born on Dragonstone. I skipped a lot of the Targ parts of A World of Ice and Fire, so I assumed he fled ahead of The Doom, landed, and proceeded to fuck shit up. Had no idea a generation of Targs preceded him in Westeros. Looking forward to diving back in next week or whenever I finish this current book.
It's written like Princess and the Queen of the Rogue Prince.
If you haven't read either of those then, I'll just say that there's a narrative and there are scenes with dialogue.
Aegon's reign and the reigns of his two sons are boring to me but it might be because I already knew about them and read them over again. Aegon's played as an enigma, Maegor's just a huge edgelord and Aenys is a wimp.
Jaehaerys' reign is great though. There's even a scene straight out of Alien in it when one of the Targaryens come back from Valyria and said Targaryen is infected by.....several disturbing monsters bursting out her body.
The Dance of Dragons is good as is Aegon III's Regency.
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The most interesting characters are Rogar Baratheon and Rhaena Targaryen
The Targaryen chapter goes all the way to Aerys the Mad King's reign. Fire and Blood Volume I only goes up to Aegon III's Regency so you'd be missing out on second half of the Targaryen dynasty.
Fire and Blood does cover the stuff it has more in-depth though.
I was considering getting it until I saw that a lot is from World... good to see it stands on its own, though.
Quote from ASoS made me think.
I could see the above being repeated about Aegon (Daeron), Jon (Daemon), and Daenerys.
I could see the above being repeated about Aegon (Daeron), Jon (Daemon), and Daenerys.
I decided to shift to Fire and Blood, then shift back to World and pick up where this book leaves off.
The library near me had several copies, so it should be easy to get ahold of if you want to glance at it.
lol yeah I also forgot about Fire and Blood until I walked into a bookstore to kill time yesterday and spotted it there. I didn't pick it up because I wanted to have a look at impressions. Seems mixed.
In general I liked the faux histories from the World of Ice and Fire, but there was some snippit of the Black and Greens that I read somewhere that I felt went on exhaustingly too long. I wonder if this 700 page tome is more of the latter...
In general I liked the faux histories from the World of Ice and Fire, but there was some snippit of the Black and Greens that I read somewhere that I felt went on exhaustingly too long. I wonder if this 700 page tome is more of the latter...
I'm about 20% into Fire and Blood and it's very good. Has a TON of detail that was left out of WOIAF. It does go on a bit too long at times, but when it's good(Jaenerys' reign), it's great. He added a ton of characters that flesh things out, people that were barely even mentioned in World have massive roles in Fire and Blood.
One of my favorite lines:
"There are seven of you, and I have half a hundred men at my back."
"All of us may die, but you will be the first, m'lord, on that I swear."
One of my favorite lines:
"There are seven of you, and I have half a hundred men at my back."
"All of us may die, but you will be the first, m'lord, on that I swear."
F&B is boring as sin...at the start. Aegon's Conquest is just boring and reads like a dry history book from someone that doesn't understand how to make battle strategy compelling. The book becmes actually good once we get into Jaehaerys reign. But, holy shit was I dissappointed when I saw that he basically coped The Rogue Prince and The Princess and the Queen, near word for word, into F&B. Talk about ease of writing. That said, I did notice a few very minor differences between the F&B version of events and the short stories which I find odd since they are written by the same Archmaester.
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Just amazes me he was able to put in this much work but not finish TWOW for god sakes.
Still, some of the deaths hit hard, because he builds the characters up really well.
Still, some of the deaths hit hard, because he builds the characters up really well.
"GoT never gave people what they want, or what they think they want. Nobody wanted Robb Stark dead because it was painful, but we did it because it was difficult and challenging. The end is not an end that people expect, but it is a satisfying end.The series is very important to us, and ending it in the right way is also very important, so we keep this secret with our lives, we know how people will feel with the end, and we know it will be a roller coaster of emotions." - John Bradley West (Samwell Tarly's actor)
Apparently in F&B it says Alysanne Targaryen flies silverwing towards the wall, but it repeatedly flies back against her will. It reinforces the idea that the wall was raised by The Others, which makes sense considering how much they seem to master the use of ice for odd ends.
Because I understand the themes and characters in the novels. Drogon will turn to stone and Dany will try and sacrifice her's and Jon's unborn child to wake it from stone. It is for Jon to try and stop the sacrifice, or not, depending on how he comes to prioritise and view his role and responsibility towards his child and the realm.
Watch and see if the show doesn't approximate this somehow.
Sounds very far fetched. The stone dragon thing is likely Melissandre not understanding that the prophecy has already been fulfilled, Danny already awoke the dragon out of stone (egg).