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patientzero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,729
I'd be alright if they didn't call themselves Chinese food haha

I have to admit that watered down mass-market cuisine is kind of an equal-opportunity offender. I used to hold the same view of Olive Garden, but at this point I don't care. That stuff is the definition of what an above poster was pointing to as ignorant - it neither supports nor appropriates because it's so mass market as to be invisible and no one thinks of it as culinary.

I do wonder if there's a good book or documentary series idea in the mass commodification of "ethnic" cuisine as a means of normalizing. Like how chef Boyardee started as trying to bring Italian into the home pantry to the point where people sought out higher end stuff that better reflects a culture.
 

CrankyJay

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,318
I have to admit that watered down mass-market cuisine is kind of an equal-opportunity offender. I used to hold the same view of Olive Garden, but at this point I don't care. That stuff is the definition of what an above poster was pointing to as ignorant - it neither supports nor appropriates because it's so mass market as to be invisible and no one thinks of it as culinary.

I do wonder if there's a good book or documentary series idea in the mass commodification of "ethnic" cuisine as a means of normalizing. Like how chef Boyardee started as trying to bring Italian into the home pantry to the point where people sought out higher end stuff that better reflects a culture.

This is an interesting point to me, specifically because Chinese food (well, most Asian cuisines, but Chinese in particular) is a comfort food to me, especially as a white dude. I was incredibly fortunate to be in a situation where my family befriended the owners of a high-end Chinese restaurant.

I'm curious if my palate is discerning enough as this point to tell the different between "authentic" Chinese cuisine (even if Americanized) versus a place quarterbacked by a Andrew Zimmern or Gordon Ramsey.
 

Septimus Prime

EA
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,500
Panda Express is actually kind of interesting because it's the "express" version of Panda Inn, which is a Chinese-owned restaurant in Pasadena that caters to American tastes (they default give you a fork instead of chopsticks). It's appropriation in the opposite direction.
 

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,014
Panda Express is actually kind of interesting because it's the "express" version of Panda Inn, which is a Chinese-owned restaurant in Pasadena that caters to American tastes (they default give you a fork instead of chopsticks). It's appropriation in the opposite direction.

To be fair, Panda Express is a lot more authentic than many people realize.

Like, Orange Chicken is almost the same as using the equivalent tomato/citrus sauce that's fairly common in SE China. Even stuff in stir frys and all had to adapt to local ingredients. A lot of 'Americanized' Chinese dishes are like that too, with the except of a few others such as Chop Suey.

It's kind of weird, because various Chinese diasporas actually kept their (food) cultures intact as compared to their home country.
 

phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
Talking about cultural appropriation with food is tricky to me.. Chinese immigrants here for example mixed their kitchen with indonesian quisine. I imagine because the Dutch were more used to those dishes and it can be used as a bridge to actual Chinese food. The slogans and derogatory language are pretty clearly racist however.
 

patientzero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,729
Talking about cultural appropriation with food is tricky to me.. Chinese immigrants here for example mixed their kitchen with indonesian quisine. I imagine because the Dutch were more used to those dishes and it can be used as a bridge to actual Chinese food. The slogans and derogatory language are pretty clearly racist however.

I take a really light touch to the idea of appropriation as it relates to food and think there's a thesis deeply embedded in cuisine as a reflection of appropriation as a societal good in the vein of Kwame Appiah's recent writing on the subject. I should also state that I say this as a white guy who, even with family heritage touching on a couple big "ethnic" groups, lives unaffected, if not outright benefitted by, the practice.

But this is an example of bad appropriation. It's taking something, twisting its origins without regard for centuries of meaning, and seemingly providing a worse result. It's every negative associated with the practice.
 

Dingens

Circumventing ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,018
Just a side-question, but isn't "Chinese" food in the U.S. inherently racist by casually using ridiculous names such as General Tso's Chicken and Kung Pao Mushrooms?
seems kinda weird tbh...
 

Deleted member 25712

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Oct 29, 2017
1,803
Wait a fuckin minute, what is racist about "wok in, take out?" This gal has some problems and there's some super insensitive shit going on here, but that just seems like a play on words. Wok is a word. It sounds like walk.

Maybe I'm some dumb white privileged person to not see why that's problematic but you're not making fun of anyone's accent or pronunciation to make that play on words. Wok sounds like walk to my white ass.
 

RestEerie

Banned
Aug 20, 2018
13,618
i didn't read all the replies yet but after reading the OP and as a ethnic chinese myself, i.............don't get the outrage?
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,865
Wait a fuckin minute, what is racist about "wok in, take out?" This gal has some problems and there's some super insensitive shit going on here, but that just seems like a play on words. Wok is a word. It sounds like walk.

Maybe I'm some dumb white privileged person to not see why that's problematic but you're not making fun of anyone's accent or pronunciation to make that play on words. Wok sounds like walk to my white ass.

I hate to break it to Americans but the idea isn't new, either. This chain is all over Europe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wok_to_Walk

Just a side-question, but isn't "Chinese" food in the U.S. inherently racist by casually using ridiculous names such as General Tso's Chicken and Kung Pao Mushrooms?
seems kinda weird tbh...

These are really just romanised versions of Chinese names. 'Tso' comes from 'Tso Tsung-t'ang', which is a romanised form of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuo_Zongtang

Granted, you rarely see this specific sort of anglicised 'Western' Asian food outside of North America.
 

Deleted member 25712

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Oct 29, 2017
1,803
I hate to break it to Americans but the idea isn't new, either. This chain is all over Europe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wok_to_Walk

So like...isn't this fine? It's not like racism doesn't exist in Europe, and the Dutch blackface stuff isn't ok at all, but if we lose our shit over a little pun that doesn't seem malicious or even rooted in prejudice toward people from a linguistic standpoint....I dunno...seems like it'll have the opposite of the desired effect. But maybe I'm missing something. And I'm really only talking about the wok pun, nothing else this lady did.
 

Deleted member 6511

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Oct 25, 2017
432
I hate to break it to Americans but the idea isn't new, either. This chain is all over Europe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wok_to_Walk



These are really just romanised versions of Chinese names. 'Tso' comes from 'Tso Tsung-t'ang', which is a romanised form of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuo_Zongtang

Granted, you rarely see this specific sort of anglicised 'Western' Asian food outside of North America.
Some of the sugar heavy Chinese American food can also be found in Brazil.
In Brazil there is a series of dishes that one expect in the "Chinese" restaurants (frango xadrez i.e.) . I lived in India and used to go to chinese restaurants there, and while I liked their super spicy dishes, they were unlike anything I had in Beijing or Shanghai (I tend to avoid tourist restaurants).
Chinese food is so good that they adapt to the customers everywhere and it is still good. Even if is different from the original.

Non Chinese food example:
Fogo de chão , a Brazilian steakhouse, highlights its lamb chops in ad I have seen. From the region of Brazil that chain came from, one would expect chicken heart, not lamb chops. Chicken heart is too weird for US, so they adapt the menu.
But hey, you will still eat well and get some typical cuts.
 

Dingens

Circumventing ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,018
Kung Pao is just the westernized version of "Gong Bao".

by westernized I assume you mean Americanized, right? because I've never seen that stuff anywhere else outside the US


What do you mean? They are pretty close go the Chinese names.

And yet, I never had to order commander Togo' kamikaze Rolls, Vietcong's crazy noodle soup or Howdy McTexan's beefy disks in bread.


I'm pretty sure they both have actual roots in Chinese cuisine.



That was hardly the point though... It is somewhat harder to explain, since apparently this sort of racism is the US' blind spot


[...]
These are really just romanised versions of Chinese names. 'Tso' comes from 'Tso Tsung-t'ang', which is a romanised form of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuo_Zongtang

Granted, you rarely see this specific sort of anglicised 'Western' Asian food outside of North America.

kind of my point. I just don't get why this kind of americanization is necessary to begin with. It's a dish, not a novel.
For "general Tso", I'm more willing to accept it because it's an american and not a Chinese dish. Still weird though
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,865
kind of my point. I just don't get why this kind of americanization is necessary to begin with. It's a dish, not a novel.
For "general Tso", I'm more willing to accept it because it's an american and not a Chinese dish. Still weird though

There's nothing inherently wrong with transliteration. It's prevalent in lots of aspects of Chinese culture that appear in a Western context. To take an obvious example, Westerners don't use the term 功夫 (gōngfu), they just say 'kung fu'. It works pretty similarly in the opposite direction too. A lot of Western terms/names are transliterated into Mandarin as well - to take another dumb example: 汉堡包 (hànbǎobāo) or 'hamburger'.

The 'General Tso' thing is a bit weird but that just appears to have been a marketing exercise cooked up by immigrants from Hunan to appeal to American sensibilities.
 

Deleted member 907

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Oct 25, 2017
2,300
Wait a fuckin minute, what is racist about "wok in, take out?" This gal has some problems and there's some super insensitive shit going on here, but that just seems like a play on words. Wok is a word. It sounds like walk.

Maybe I'm some dumb white privileged person to not see why that's problematic but you're not making fun of anyone's accent or pronunciation to make that play on words. Wok sounds like walk to my white ass.
It's insensitive because it's racist. And yes, the word play is racist because of the numerous explanations in this very thread.

I hate to break it to Americans but the idea isn't new, either. This chain is all over Europe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wok_to_Walk
This isn't any better and the food looks like a flavorless mess.
 

Deleted member 25712

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1,803
It's insensitive because it's racist. And yes, the word play is racist because of the numerous explanations in this very thread.

When I explain why this thing doesn't seem racist and your response is "because it's racist," that doesn't really help. It's not a racist word play, it just a word play, and others seem to agree here too. Wok is an English word. Walk is an English word. They sound the same with a "normal" American accent. It doesn't seem to be making fun of or otherwise insulting to make that word play. This point, specifically, seems silly. That being said, a lot of the rest of the story is very yikes.
 

patientzero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,729
When I explain why this thing doesn't seem racist and your response is "because it's racist," that doesn't really help. It's not a racist word play, it just a word play, and others seem to agree here too. Wok is an English word. Walk is an English word. They sound the same with a "normal" American accent. It doesn't seem to be making fun of or otherwise insulting to make that word play. This point, specifically, seems silly. That being said, a lot of the rest of the story is very yikes.

It's the totality of the situation. A lot of things might not be bigoted in their presentation, or in their wording, or in their intent, but it's the combination of factors, the sheer context, that can prove to be a problem.
 

Deleted member 25712

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It's the totality of the situation. A lot of things might not be bigoted in their presentation, or in their wording, or in their intent, but it's the combination of factors, the sheer context, that can prove to be a problem.

I think that's fair, context does matter. I've really only latched on to this specific point, but given the totality of it I get the problem here.
 

Deleted member 12224

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Oct 27, 2017
6,113
Putting aside the context of this women and her restaurant...

I never previously made a connection that "Wok In, Take Out" is a pun based on a homophone because of engrish pronunciation, as opposed to a pun based on a homophone because of standard English pronunciation.

Am I misunderstanding how the words "wok" or "walk" are pronounced? Wahk and wauk are how they come out of my mouth, but without that aw/au accent, aren't the words supposed to sound just about the same (not identical, but very similar) in conversational English?
 

Deleted member 907

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When I explain why this thing doesn't seem racist and your response is "because it's racist," that doesn't really help. It's not a racist word play, it just a word play, and others seem to agree here too. Wok is an English word. Walk is an English word. They sound the same with a "normal" American accent. It doesn't seem to be making fun of or otherwise insulting to make that word play. This point, specifically, seems silly. That being said, a lot of the rest of the story is very yikes.
Wok is an English word...jfc

There isn't a long history of Asians being made fun of because of their accents? And who are you to say what is or isn't racist to Asians? What makes you an authority on it?

edit: You originally said there was some "super insensitive shit." That "super insensitive shit" is called racism. It not complicated math to come to the conclusion that the word play is racist.
 
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Commedieu

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
15,025
Putting aside the context of this women and her restaurant...

I never previously made a connection that "Wok In, Take Out" is a pun based on a homophone because of engrish pronunciation, as opposed to a pun based on a homophone because of standard English pronunciation.

Am I misunderstanding how the words "wok" or "walk" are pronounced? Wahk and wauk are how they come out of my mouth, but without that aw/au accent, aren't the words supposed to sound just about the same (not identical, but very similar) in conversational English?

It doesn't deserve this much scrutiny because its lazy...


At worse, a generalization of an asian accented version of "walk" might sound like "wok." (like how people make fun of asians & mimic "solly" instead of "sorry") At best, its just replacing the word Wok for Walk, which could be read as well as spoken verbally.
 
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
When I explain why this thing doesn't seem racist and your response is "because it's racist," that doesn't really help. It's not a racist word play, it just a word play, and others seem to agree here too. Wok is an English word. Walk is an English word. They sound the same with a "normal" American accent. It doesn't seem to be making fun of or otherwise insulting to make that word play. This point, specifically, seems silly. That being said, a lot of the rest of the story is very yikes.
Wok is an English word?
 

ev0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,425
I think that's fair, context does matter. I've really only latched on to this specific point, but given the totality of it I get the problem here.

I personally would have given the wok thing a pass, the other stuff is more serious. But seeing as she also put "Mi-So Lucky" soup on the menu, this lady is clearly mocking engrish there. That's straight up racist
 

Deleted member 25712

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Oct 29, 2017
1,803
Wok is an English word...jfc

There isn't a long history of Asians being made fun of because of their accents? And who are you to say what is or isn't racist to Asians? What makes you an authority on it?

Yes, wok is an English word. You can use wok in an English sentence and English speakers will know what you mean. All languages have words that come from various sources, that doesn't mean they're not a part of that language or foreign to native speakers of that language. Don't give me this dismissive bullshit.

Yes, Asians have a history of being made fun of for their accents. I get that. But this wasn't some sort of "Engrish" joke. This isn't a case where that accent would apply or where it would matter. Wok and walk sound the same to someone speaking American English natively without a foreign accent. Because I have half a brain and have thought this through, I don't think the pun here is inherently racist. If someone is offended by it, those feelings are valid and consideration should be given. But, I think this joke could be made totally innocently as well, in a different context.

I personally would have given the wok thing a pass, the other stuff is more serious. But seeing as she also put "Mi-So Lucky" soup on the menu, this lady is clearly mocking engrish there. That's straight up racist

Yes, I agree that these other examples are quite blatantly racist.
 

Deleted member 39450

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Boston, MA
Wok is an English word...jfc

There isn't a long history of Asians being made fun of because of their accents? And who are you to say what is or isn't racist to Asians? What makes you an authority on it?

edit: You originally said there was some "super insensitive shit." That "super insensitive shit" is called racism. It not complicated math to come to the conclusion that the word play is racist.

I'm not sure there's anything inherently racist about a pun on the word "wok"; there are plenty of Asian businesses that use this kind of wording on their english-worded signs in Asia/Hong Kong. As long as it's not a slur or mean-spirited I don't think anyone should have a problem with it. The aforementioned "Wok to Walk" chain has opened several locations all over NY/NJ and I've never heard any noise about that.
 

patientzero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,729
Folks, we get it that a single element of this restaurant's much lager design, menu, and intent can seem innocuous in a vacuum.

So why focus on the most trivial aspect to the detriment of seeing everything else?
 

TrueSloth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,065
There are tons of different kinds of chinese food that will appeal to different people- take for example szechuan food. Her solution to stereotype a culture is nothing new, but she could have done her research and not have been so insensitive.
 

Deleted member 48897

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Oct 22, 2018
13,623
But seeing as she also put "Mi-So Lucky" soup on the menu, this lady is clearly mocking engrish there. That's straight up racist

And, it's like, she was almost aware enough to realize there's something up with doing that to not literally do "me so lucky" but the racist intent is obviously because "miso" doesn't have a dash in its romanization, it's not even a miso soup, and miso soup isn't even a Chinese dish anyway.
 

patientzero

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Oct 25, 2017
4,729
There are tons of different kinds of chinese food that will appeal to different people- take for example szechuan food. Her solution to stereotype a culture is nothing new, but she could have done her research and not have been so insensitive.

I'm going to bring up Kwame Appiah again as an illustration of this exact point.

In his newest book about identity he touches on cultural appropriation briefly, mainly to celebrate it. After all, it's how most any "authentic" cuisine we have was formed - Brazilian cuisine, for instance, is a mixture of Latin, African, Asian, and European cuisines to form a coherent new style of food. Or, in a more salient example, we can look to how rap has proliferated across the globe to become an artform of rebellion and social causes, emanating from a few blocks in New York, and itself built on African musical styles and spoken word, to cross the globe and be used by many who saw its anti-power tendencies and how that could translate to their own oppressed groups.

What Appiah points out is that what we think of as negative in appropriation is not appropriation itself, but lack of respect. Which goes to your point about insensitivity.

A pun can be just a pun. Iconography can be simply images. They can be used respectfully, or not. And this place doesn't, on a surface level, appear to respect the culture it is working within. There were hundreds of ways for this restaurant to respect the culture, either Chinese or Chinese-American, it dabbles in, but instead seems to think it can do better than them. When, given the subjectivity of food, better is a fraught term.
 

Vinnie20

Banned
Dec 23, 2018
450
by westernized I assume you mean Americanized, right? because I've never seen that stuff anywhere else outside the US




And yet, I never had to order commander Togo' kamikaze Rolls, Vietcong's crazy noodle soup or Howdy McTexan's beefy disks in bread.






That was hardly the point though... It is somewhat harder to explain, since apparently this sort of racism is the US' blind spot




kind of my point. I just don't get why this kind of americanization is necessary to begin with. It's a dish, not a novel.
For "general Tso", I'm more willing to accept it because it's an american and not a Chinese dish. Still weird though

Kong Pao chicken is 宫保鸡丁。 do you know anything about the history of romanization of Chinese words? Go to a youtube video and see how Chinese pronounce this dish.

There are plenty of Chinese dishes in China that directly reference a general by surname. It's popular thing to do. It's a lot closer to a Chinese dish than fortune cookie.
 
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Deleted member 907

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Frankly, it's just a basic DIY stir-fry with whatever sauce you want. I occasionally get it late on Friday nights when I'm drunk.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't eat this crap if I were in my home country but options are limited in London.
That chain is more than likely owed by white people after reading up on it and that's the comparison I was trying to make. I don't call cigarettes or meatballs "faggots" because I understand it's universally bad to use that term. They don't get a pass because they're Dutch and want to pretend it doesn't have racist roots.

Everyone eats shitty food. That's the least offensive part of this mess as they don'f play it up that their stuff is better than traditional Chinese food.

Wok right in!

Now seriously, nothing wrong with wok puns. If this community doesn't like the new age takes on the menu, they don't have to support the restaurant.
Thanks for telling me, a US born Chinese guy, that there's nothing wrong with racist puns that make fun of Asian accents.

Yes, wok is an English word. You can use wok in an English sentence and English speakers will know what you mean. All languages have words that come from various sources, that doesn't mean they're not a part of that language or foreign to native speakers of that language. Don't give me this dismissive bullshit.

Yes, Asians have a history of being made fun of for their accents. I get that. But this wasn't some sort of "Engrish" joke. This isn't a case where that accent would apply or where it would matter. Wok and walk sound the same to someone speaking American English natively without a foreign accent. Because I have half a brain and have thought this through, I don't think the pun here is inherently racist. If someone is offended by it, those feelings are valid and consideration should be given. But, I think this joke could be made totally innocently as well, in a different context.

Yes, I agree that these other examples are quite blatantly racist.
Sounds more like English appropriated a Chinese word to me.

And we're not talking about it in a different context; we're talking about it in THIS context as you said that it's not racist in THIS case. I guess by "consideration given," you mean none from you.

I'm not sure there's anything inherently racist about a pun on the word "wok"; there are plenty of Asian businesses that use this kind of wording on their english-worded signs in Asia/Hong Kong. As long as it's not a slur or mean-spirited I don't think anyone should have a problem with it. The aforementioned "Wok to Walk" chain has opened several locations all over NY/NJ and I've never heard any noise about that.
Do you understand why you can't say "nigga" if you're not black? Now apply that same concept to why Asians can make Chinese/English word puns.

The reason why that chain doesn't get shit on for it's name is because they don't shit on Chinese cuisine to make a buck. I stand firm on my stance that it's still shit here too.

Folks, we get it that a single element of this restaurant's much lager design, menu, and intent can seem innocuous in a vacuum.

So why focus on the most trivial aspect to the detriment of seeing everything else?
Because they'd make the same racist jokes and they don't want others to think they're racist for making them.
 
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Deleted member 25712

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1,803
Folks, we get it that a single element of this restaurant's much lager design, menu, and intent can seem innocuous in a vacuum.

So why focus on the most trivial aspect to the detriment of seeing everything else?

I think it does matter that when things are called racist, they're actually racist, and overusing or misusing the term can have the opposite of the intended effect of actually reducing racist bullshit in society. I think you're also right to point out the other elements of the story and greater context factoring into it, and getting off into the weeds on this point is probably missing the bigger picture.

Sounds more like English appropriated a Chinese word to me.

And we're not talking about it in a different context; we're talking about it in THIS context as you said that it's not racist in THIS case. I guess by "consideration given," you mean none from you.

You can make the distinction about where the word came from all you want, but the fact of the matter is it's an English word used in every day vocabularies, which is true of almost every single word we use. Seriously, this linguistic point is quite dumb if you want to go down that path. Every. Language. Borrows. Words. Calling it appropriation like it's some negative thing is ridiculous.

As for the other stuff, we can just agree to disagree on what I meant. I don't think you really care.