A white woman was placed on a curation team at the AA Smithsonian museum

[Biestmann]

Two reasons:

1) This isn't an argument about Burnside's academic qualifications. So the post doesn't clarify so much as provide an unintended straw man.

2) The OP wants to keep the post as-is. And, provided the post isn't inflammatory or blatantly deceptive, mods tend to not make a habit of editing OPs.

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The OP fails to teach us anything about Burnside, the woman now curator of the Hip Hop section of the museum. As it turns out, she has a long history in the project and helped realize it. Those are important facts that go beyond her race, and has had black users like BossAttack concede that, ultimately, her hiring is not an issue in this particular case. It brings some color to a case that is otherwise pretty cut and dried, and deserves to be featured in the OP. It is regretful that you do not see this, and are the one that gets to dismiss the request, despite multiple users asking for the addition to the OP.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Can't really think of anything, isn't that part of the problem with white people? No real culture? At least not one that anyone should be proud of.

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Come on now, this is just unnecessarily insulting. I hope you don't mean it.

 

[Royalan]

The OP fails to teach us anything about Burnside, the woman now curator of the Hip Hop section of the museum. As it turns out, she has a long history in the project and helped realize it. Those are important facts that go beyond her race, and has had black users like BossAttack concede that, ultimately, her hiring is not an issue in this particular case. It brings some color to a case that is otherwise pretty cut and dried, and deserves to be featured in the OP. It is regretful that you do not see this, and are the one that gets to dismiss the request, despite multiple users asking for the addition to the OP.

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I didn't dismiss the request.

 

[Dyle]

I understand those disappointed by such a hiring choice, but a quick look at her history with the NMAH shows that she clearly has a lot of experience and expertise on the subject, even without knowing the specifcs of her resume, interview, and work history. There are too many factors involved in one position to draw too many conclusions. The Smithsonian's staff is, in my anecdotal experience, I can't look up hard numbers right now, more diverse than the industry at large. That being said there is still tons of room for improvement and I hope that situations like this don't lead people to dox and hate on people just trying to make a living and do their best to teach others. The mission of recording and showing our history is too important to be sidetracked by petty, self-destructive arguments

 

[F2BBm3ga]

Only thing I can think of from an American standpoint is most rural (Redneck) culture, but that isn't really something to be proud of. European culture is a different story thoufh

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So much ignorance in this thread. People just post shit just because they think they know shit? I was recently educated on where "redneck" originated from and it comes from mineworkers in the 1900s when they faced life threatening conditions at thier jobs, due to the very poor working conditions, so Black, white and Immigrant mine workers united together to battle the coal companies and they wore red bandanas around their neck and were called the Redneck army. that's where the "redneck" term originally started from. that tidbit is something to be "proud" of in regards to redneck culture. What rednecks are known for now? no.

 

[Urban Scholar]

The mission of recording and showing our history is too important to be sidetracked by petty, self-destructive arguments

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For clarity's sake do you feel this very real conversation is petty & self-destructive??

 

[Loudninja]

It so frustration even with our own culture we are seen as a damn afterthough.

 

[Enzom21]

So much ignorance in this thread. People just post shit just because they think they know shit? I was recently educated on where "redneck" originated from and it comes from mineworkers in the 1900s when they faced life threatening conditions at thier jobs, due to the very poor working conditions, so Black, white and Immigrant mine workers united together to battle the coal companies and they wore red bandanas around their neck and were called the Redneck army. that's where the "redneck" term originally started from.

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Do you have a source for this?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I mean we can't say we want allies then snub em when they show the fuck up.

As long as she respects the culture it should be all love.

 

[F2BBm3ga]

Do you have a source for this?

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Google is a thing.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/apr/14/redneck-pride-west-virginia-protests-strikes

https://www.loc.gov/item/cmns002092/

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25474784?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

https://www.yesmagazine.org/new-economy/is-west-virginia-s-coal-history-a-goldmine-mine-wars

 

[Westbahnhof]

The situations are obviously different, but I know about a museum that has been looking for a curator for one of their collections forever now. Payment isn't great and the responsibility and workload is massive. I can understand why people have a problem with this woman having this post, but at the same time, I understand a museum taking who they can get. Of course, I don't know the details, and it may very well be that she got chosen over black applicants. I'm not trying to defend her post, just something that came to mind when I thought about the situation.
I also think that from everything I've read, this person does have the respect and knowledge one would expect from any curator. So at least there's that.

Edit: LMAO what a bullshit warning, but whatever I'll own that. I guess saying I can't come up with anything that stands out as something I'd call "my people's culture" is worthy of a warning.

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Just noticed the edit and wanted to say, if you want to avoid stepping on people's toes like this, don't simply state that a sizable chunk of the worlds population has "no real culture". I'd argue that it's wrong even if you specified who you meant, but I hope you can see why it's wrong in a global context.

 

[Neece]

There have been enough good points raised that I can see why Burnside was chosen for this project. I have other critiques about how the project came to be but that is besides the point. She helped to convince the Museum to feature this exhibit and it made sense for her to be put in charge, especially with the support of those inside the industry. Cool.

But I guess what still feels unsatisfying about this is the fact that hip hop is not that old. There are people alive that LIVED the historical stages of not just the music but the conditions for black people in the 70s that led to the culture of hip hop.

It's disappointing that someone that first hand witnessed the rise of hip hop as a cultural movement and music genre would not be the person curating an exhibit for the masses, 40 years later. It just feels like a lost opportunity. 30, 40, 50 years from now, all hip hop curators will be like this woman, people that researched and studied and interviewed and that is great. That is what every other exhibit looks like. But while we still can, it would be pretty powerful to have those that were part of the history be the ones to tell the story of the history. This is really the only time in history where that is still possible. To me, that experience is more important than a degree in the field.

I do admit I could be way underestimating what curators do. And I also admit that Burnside may be working hand in hand with the very people that did live it, so her exhibit might reflect their experiences well enough that my concerns are alleviated.

 

[nel e nel]

So much ignorance in this thread. People just post shit just because they think they know shit? I was recently educated on where "redneck" originated from and it comes from mineworkers in the 1900s when they faced life threatening conditions at thier jobs, due to the very poor working conditions, so Black, white and Immigrant mine workers united together to battle the coal companies and they wore red bandanas around their neck and were called the Redneck army. that's where the "redneck" term originally started from. that tidbit is something to be "proud" of in regards to redneck culture. What rednecks are known for now? no.

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It was a derogatory term for poor rural farmers who got sunburnt (red necks) from working in the fields. The coal miner thing Came later. Politicians were fearful of them because they were uneducated and uncivilized. Blacks were afraid of being lynched.

Ain't a damn thing changed.

 

[Akira86]

Do you have a source for this?

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google IS a thing, and according to google, attribution of the term seems to have multiple sources, including the one referenced by the poster. of the various groups of people who either were called or called themselves rednecks.

did you know people just post shit because they think they know shit?

 

[Westbahnhof]

I do admit I could be way underestimating what curators do.

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Just as an example, a museum near me is currently looking for a curator. This is the info thing, hastily translated by me:

Curator for the Collection Area Asia

In your function as curator for the collection "Asia", you will face the challenge of redefining collection activities from a contemporary perspective. You will develop new strategies and concepts for research work and acquisition policy and will also be responsible for setting up the necessary financial resources. Fundamental research and the development of exhibition projects round off your job profile.

We are looking for dynamic personalities with relevant training and experience in the scientific field, excellent knowledge of English and IT as well as organisational talent. We require assertiveness as well as in-depth knowledge of art and cultural history.

Monthly salary: € 3.000,- gross. With appropriate qualification the readiness for overpayment is given.

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[Dyle]

For clarity's sake do you feel this very real conversation is petty & self-destructive??

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I didn't mean Era, it's just that I've seen some very hurtful and unnecessary personal attacks on other forums and groups about similar instances in the past. The museum field is so overstaffed right now, which sometimes is part of what makes people turn their legitimate criticism into hateful attacks.

 

[Dragnipur]

To sort of clarify what I meant: since America is a melting pot of many different people and cultures, it leads to a blending and mixing of everything into an overall culture. Lots of people maintain their old cultures in addition to embracing the "overall" American culture, but for some peoples they've fully embraced the hodgepodge American culture, and the only original culture left that is"unique" is those who haven't moved on, i.e. rural areas. I'm talking more how things are present day than in the past.

 

[Jersey_Tom]

Again you're choosing to completely ignore/not read what several posters have said about this topic, and have come to your own conclusion about it. Many people are talking about this systemically. I don't know why you keep repeating this line

"Again, please explain to me how this isn't regressive to tell a woman who's spent her adult life working on this subject that she's allowed to only take her career so far due to no real fault of her own?"

When I literally said in the post you're responding to that this isn't what everyone is calling for. Many are looking at this in the broader sense as to why there wasn't black person chosen. Was this position even open to external hires? If it was were there truly a lack of black applicants? etc... Very few people in this thread are saying she should step down, and I don't think anyone has said she isn't qualified.

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Well if we're going to talk about posters in this thread, I'll direct you to the original person and their post who I was responding to before you originally quoted me.

That post changes fuck all.

If she's a supposed to be an ally, then she should recognise it is not her place to fill that vacancy.

She shouldn't have taken the job.

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That's not talking about this systemically. That's directly saying that nothing about her qualifications matters. If she's an ally then she should know that she shouldn't have accepted the job, which would mean that she shouldn't allow herself a chance at career advancement because of her skin color. That it's not her "place" to be leading an exhibit on hip-hop, which is why I question how that line of discourse isn't regressive.

It's not what -everyone- is calling for. But it's what the person who I was responding to was calling for before you jumped in, and to this point I haven't seen people who want to talk about this systemically address the mentality stated in the above as not constructive.

If we want to talk about systemic issues in hiring practices, great. But a lot of this is coming from a place of she shouldn't have been considered at all due to her skin tone, and even then she should have renounced her candidacy for the position, or resigned by now, regardless of what her qualifications may be. So in that respect, yes, I agree it hasn't been about her qualifications to a lot of people, unfortunately for the wrong reasons.

The kicker to all this is that Burnside specifically is working to fight against the systemic issues we're talking about, according to Mark Anthony Neal, a professor at Duke who had her come in with 9th Wonder to talk to a class about increasing representation of people of color in archiving.



Which makes her story being the hill some people want to die on in regards to a conversation about systemic racism in hiring practices very strange.

 

[F2BBm3ga]

back to the real topic, honestly, the biggest thing for me are the cosigns. and if Chuck D and 9th wonder are cosigning. I can't be mad.

 

[wandering]

Outrage over this is such a bad look smh. Imagine the reaction if the same headline was printed for a minority doing some white people thing(idk, curating cheese or something ? What are some white people things era ?)

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In a vacuum, sure. But in the context of African Americans and African American cultural artifacts being long marginalized and devalued by white American society at large, it's pretty understandable why people are opposed to having white people as the gatekeepers and validators of said artifacts.

 

[Wrapped in Black]

I could walk into a barber shop right now and find plenty of black folks with extensive knowledge of hip-hop history and culture. I am not taking away from this woman's achievements, but I find it hard to believe that her position has such a high barrier of entry that no black people were as qualified as her.

 

[minato]

If she has a mostly black staff helping her then I am fine with it.

 

[Benita]

I could walk into a barber shop right now and find plenty of black folks with extensive knowledge of hip-hop history and culture. I am not taking away from this woman's achievements, but I find it hard to believe that her position has such a high barrier of entry that no black people were as qualified as her.

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Bullshit you're not. What a ridiculous post this is.

I'll tell you what I told Royalan: until a black person shows up and says "I'm qualified for this job and want to do it", what you do or don't find hard to believe is completely irrelevant.

 

[Deleted member 15326]

Outrage over this is such a bad look smh. Imagine the reaction if the same headline was printed for a minority doing some white people thing(idk, curating cheese or something ? What are some white people things era ?)

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You're non-black and anti-black

Nobody gives a fuck how it looks to you

 

[Enzom21]

Google is a thing.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/apr/14/redneck-pride-west-virginia-protests-strikes

https://www.loc.gov/item/cmns002092/

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25474784?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

https://www.yesmagazine.org/new-economy/is-west-virginia-s-coal-history-a-goldmine-mine-wars

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Nothing predates this, huh?

google IS a thing, and according to google, attribution of the term seems to have multiple sources, including the one referenced by the poster. of the various groups of people who either were called or called themselves rednecks.

did you know people just post shit because they think they know shit?

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I need to "get educated" like the people who think they know shit.

 

[woman]

I mean we can't say we want allies then snub em when they show the fuck up.

As long as she respects the culture it should be all love.

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We said we want allies. Not white people running our show.

 

[travisbickle]

Worked 15 years as an archivist for a museum and you're not allowed to curate an exhibition, at that same museum, of the artefacts you researched and collated.

She essentially carved out the position because of the work she had produced for her whole career.

The museum made the right choice. And I also believe anyone who actually works within the field would be sympathetic to the choice. (some of my best friend spent 10s of thousands of pounds on education in the archivist sector ;) )

 

[Benita]

We said we want allies. Not white people running our show.

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Who's gonna run it instead? Go find someone better suited.

 

[Neece]

Just as an example, a museum near me is currently looking for a curator. This is the info thing, hastily translated by me:

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Eh, this is close to what I would have expected. lol

 

[F2BBm3ga]

I need to "get educated" like the people who think they know shit.

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pretty much since u aint say anything till he brought up the other shit.

 

[Zem]

The real crime here is the OP referring to Chuck D as "this guy". Fucking hell.

 

[SugarNoodles]

Who's gonna run it instead? Go find someone better suited.

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This is not an acceptable argument. "Well you couldnt do better" or "Fix it if you dont like it" is lazy and only serves to maintain the status quo.

 

[Angry Grimace]

You're non-black and anti-black

Nobody gives a fuck how it looks to you

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Did this poster say something else that led you to this conclusion? Because that seems like a really big accusation to throw out.

 

[SageShinigami]

I really don't see the point of it either like ok? that's great. nobody said homegirl wasn't qualified.

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lol. I'ma keep it a buck. You ain't really want discussion from this. You wanted people to agree with you. The OP is colored that way, your follow up post is colored that way. It's not hard to think you want to ignore her credentials because that would obviously affect how some people feel about this. I was about to charge in here all rah rah like "This some trash, see nobody gives a shit about us black folks" but then she got co-signs from 9th Wonder, a fucking legend. So I can go with the usual anger or I can just assume that Chuck D and 9th know what the fuck they're talking about and sit down somewhere.

Shit, I'm just noticing the fact that you included Chuck D, called him "this guy" and chose not to embed his tweet so it'd be easier to ignore. Aight fam, you have fun with this.

 

[Enzom21]

pretty much since u aint say anything till he brought up the other shit.

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You're the one posting "origins" of phrases and talking about "people posting shit thinking they know shit" so I asked you for a source of you "thinking you know shit."
Amusing act, by the way.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Eh, this is close to what I would have expected. lol

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I just had that pop into my head and thought it could help out some people here. What's important, IMO, is to realize that it's a job that requires a few skills, and while there certainly is discussion to be had about her having that position, comments like the following quote are a bit insulting to anyone working in that field.

I could walk into a barber shop right now and find plenty of black folks with extensive knowledge of hip-hop history and culture.

Click to shrink...

 

[F2BBm3ga]

You're the one posting "origins" of phrases and talking about "people posting shit thinking they know shit" so I asked you for a source of you "thinking you know shit."
Amusing act, by the way.

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and I gave you sources, not wikipedia

 

[F2BBm3ga]

I just had that pop into my head and thought it could help out some people here. What's important, IMO, is to realize that it's a job that requires a few skills, and while there certainly is discussion to be had about her having that position, comments like the following quote are a bit insulting to anyone working in that field.

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the only problem I have with that quote is that I just don't believe it. I've been to the hoodest of hood barbershops in my lifetime, and cats in there THOUGHT they knew hiphop, but they didn't know it like they thought they did which is why Id be in arguments with them so much about it.

Shit, I'm just noticing the fact that you included Chuck D, called him "this guy" and chose not to embed his tweet so it'd be easier to ignore. Aight fam, you have fun with this.

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yea it was kinda sneaky/dirty how he did that

 

[Enzom21]

and I gave you sources, not wikipedia

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Did I ask for wikipedia? I am sure if you apply this:

Google is a thing.

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You'll find info about the origin of the word that predates your sources.
Once again, bravo on this whole act you have going on here, it is real convincing.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

We said we want allies. Not white people running our show.

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I mean I absolutely agree. 100%. I guess I don't consider an exhibit at the Smithson to be anywhere near running our show.

And if that's our metric OK. I'm all on board but then I want us to keep that same energy with all those white owned and dominated corporations that sign our favorite rappers checks.

I more concerned since it's the Smithsonian they gonna up the ante and have a white woman whitewash the history and impact of hip hop. So I get it.

 

[Jarmel]

I guess when I first opened up the thread, I was looking at it from an academic perspective. I've met history PhD students. It's a thankless job. My friend's wife recently dropped out of a program after 7 years because there was no end in sight and no job prospects beyond that. And she's a white woman studying European history.

In my field (biotech), to mirror the obgyn analogy before, you'd never tell someone they were ill-suited for cancer research or diabetes research because their family wasn't afflicted by the disease. "You didn't live it, you couldn't understand" is obviously true when working with patients of rare diseases, but it doesn't stop people from pursuing those research areas, and it doesn't make the families any less appreciative when they see the fruits of your labor. You do the work, you're the subject expert.

With the added context of the genesis of the exhibit, her superiors at the museum (and final gatekeepers of content) being educated black men and women, her support from inside the industry from notable contributors, and her history of well-regarded work on various aspects of African American history, I'm inclined to say that her work is probably more important than the optics of her whiteness being attached to it. If there was a danger of her diluting the experience due to her lack of perspective, I'd like to think that someone would've brought it to the museum's attention in the past decade.

Remember, she wasn't hired for this exhibit. She was hired 15 years ago because she's apparently a hell of a researcher. Asking the Smithsonian to hire more blacks is certainly fair; saying that the white employees in the building can't be customer facing is not. If she wasn't headlining this, it would be something else directly speaking to the black experience in America today.

When this exhibit runs its course she'll move on to the next subject, whatever that may be, and I should hope that she's not put off from chronicling and collecting the AA experience after this backlash. Because I think we can all agree, that this shit is fucking important.

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All of this.

 

[F2BBm3ga]

Did I ask for wikipedia? I am sure if you apply this:

You'll find info about the origin of the word that predates your sources.
Once again, bravo on this whole act you have going on here, it is real convincing.

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first page of google, the one link i ignored was wikipedia. but the others are what i showed you fam. Wikipedia was the only one talking about the other shit

 

[Nephtis]

I guess when I first opened up the thread, I was looking at it from an academic perspective. I've met history PhD students. It's a thankless job. My friend's wife recently dropped out of a program after 7 years because there was no end in sight and no job prospects beyond that. And she's a white woman studying European history.

In my field (biotech), to mirror the obgyn analogy before, you'd never tell someone they were ill-suited for cancer research or diabetes research because their family wasn't afflicted by the disease. "You didn't live it, you couldn't understand" is obviously true when working with patients of rare diseases, but it doesn't stop people from pursuing those research areas, and it doesn't make the families any less appreciative when they see the fruits of your labor. You do the work, you're the subject expert.

With the added context of the genesis of the exhibit, her superiors at the museum (and final gatekeepers of content) being educated black men and women, her support from inside the industry from notable contributors, and her history of well-regarded work on various aspects of African American history, I'm inclined to say that her work is probably more important than the optics of her whiteness being attached to it. If there was a danger of her diluting the experience due to her lack of perspective, I'd like to think that someone would've brought it to the museum's attention in the past decade.

Remember, she wasn't hired for this exhibit. She was hired 15 years ago because she's apparently a hell of a researcher. Asking the Smithsonian to hire more blacks is certainly fair; saying that the white employees in the building can't be customer facing is not. If she wasn't headlining this, it would be something else directly speaking to the black experience in America today.

When this exhibit runs its course she'll move on to the next subject, whatever that may be, and I should hope that she's not put off from chronicling and collecting the AA experience after this backlash. Because I think we can all agree, that this shit is fucking important.

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I could not agree more. I was really disappointed when I first opened this thread -- people shitting on a white woman just because she's white, rather than first checking out whether she is qualified for her job or not. Your post is fantastic and conveys everything I wanted to say and more. Thank you.

 

[Dragnipur]

We said we want allies. Not white people running our show.

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Her bosses are Black though, she's not running the whole show. She's just a piece of it curating one section.

 

[Loudninja]

I could not agree more. I was really disappointed when I first opened this thread -- people shitting on a white woman just because she's white, rather than first checking out whether she is qualified for her job or not. Your post is fantastic and conveys everything I wanted to say and more. Thank you.

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So you just going to make things up I see.

I am getting more and more pissed as this goes on.

In a vacuum, sure. But in the context of African Americans and African American cultural artifacts being long marginalized and devalued by white American society at large, it's pretty understandable why people are opposed to having white people as the gatekeepers and validators of said artifacts.

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Thank you. This shit is so tiresome at this point.

 

[Cabbagehead]

Her bosses are Black though, she's not running the whole show. She's just a piece of it curating one section.

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Yes a very important section for/about the modern black culture....experience.

 

[F2BBm3ga]

I could not agree more. I was really disappointed when I first opened this thread -- people shitting on a white woman just because she's white, rather than first checking out whether she is qualified for her job or not. Your post is fantastic and conveys everything I wanted to say and more. Thank you.

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something about this posts just feels.....idk

 

[nanskee]

Difficult topic, at face value I don't have an issue with it. Some of the defending statements I've read were pretty bad, like 9th wonder's take. All 9th had to do was say she's qualified for the job and not all that other nonsense.

But man it's crazy how the optics of hip-hop has changed so much over the years when I was growing up I frequently heard it referred to as crap music, hip hop is trash etc... and this was when hip hop was probably even better than it is now

 

[F2BBm3ga]

Difficult topic, at face value I don't have an issue with it. Some of the defending statements I've read were pretty bad, like 9th wonder's take. All 9th had to do was say she's qualified for the job and not all that other nonsense.

But man it's crazy how the optics of hip-hop has changed so much over the years when I was growing up I frequently heard it referred to as crap music, hip hop is trash etc... and this was during the "golden era"

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I'd argue that's part of why it took so long for it to get some recognition in a museum because it took forever to get real respect from the world. I remember growing up and being told by others that it'll be a fad, etc. but hiphop has persevered and is now a major player in everything and has to be respected.

 

[Dragnipur]

Yes a very important section for/about the modern black culture....experience.

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Using an analogy, if the entire museum is like a factory, she's sort of like a lineman on the factory floor. What she does is important but there's lots of oversight, QC, and management that provides direction.