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OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
Gotta love Greenberg always triggering people with his PR talk

Greenberg has a history of misrepresenting the facts to suit an agenda. One of the reasons people are more enamored with Microsoft in the gaming sense lately is because Phil is not doing this. So yeah, Greenberg sucks hard, not sure why this is a surprise to people who are fans of the company. It's like being surprised that Jim Ryan is viewed negatively because he's said stupid ass things in the past.
 

Kiekura

Member
Mar 23, 2018
4,043
If anyone has learned anything from sony bending to the fortnite cross play - competition is good!! And in the end, more games for all of us to play.

It is sad that it took MS falling behind and this long to actually understand that.

Yep. It is much easier to copy services from your competitors like gamepass or BC, than start to build and buy these gaming studios and make games that are successful
 

Bear and bird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,596
Edit: Nvm. Misread the article.

I can only hope that this new initiative lasts longer this time around. They had 10 internal studios back when Mattrick was the boss as well.
 

Strike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,359
Hopefully they learned that it will take more than money to get the kind of results they want. It takes takes time and you have to nurture them. Make it a place where people want to come work for you. This sounds like a step in the right direction.
 

LifeLine

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,779
Uuuhhh no. Nothing was dropped to get last of us made.

Uncharted 3: 2011
Uncharted 4: 2016

A 5 year gap between 3 and 4 because of The Last of Us. Not many other studios would have let their best selling team, stop developing their best selling and one of their highest rated games ever, to focus on a entirely new IP.

Just look at Bungie
 

scitek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,076
Forgive my cynicism -- I think MS might do this until each studio's first game releases, but if those games don't meet sales expectations, corporate meddling will begin.
 

JayWood2010

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,120
The big thing people seem to be ignoring in this thread is that Xbox for what may be the first time ever seems to have full backing by Microsoft. Xbox may be a part of Microsoft, but from executives in the past and present, they said they didnt really feel like a part of Microsoft.

Now Phil Spencer comes in and Natya Sadella has backed him up, and has actually given Xbox a big budget. As soon as they got this bigger budget they buy 5 studios, and most likely more.

So with that said, team Xbox will actually have a budget to back up their devs next generation, and maybe even acquiring more. You will actually see Microsoft swinging around money this time around.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
He is a PR man of the worst kind but from what Ninja Theory has said, it does ring true more or less but obviously Microsoft will drop the axe like any other company would or double down if they strike gold.
 

Deleted member 18951

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,531
I genuinely think the thought of an improved Xbox offering on here actually terrifies people, it's fucking pathetic.
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,290
Uncharted 3: 2011
Uncharted 4: 2016

A 5 year gap between 3 and 4 because of The Last of Us. Not many other studios would have let their best selling team, stop developing their best selling and one of their highest rated games ever, to focus on a entirely new IP.

Just look at Bungie

What about bungie? They felt they didn't need two shooters in destiny and halo. Terrible example. Also there's a difference I a two team studio and a one team studio.
Naughty was a two studio at that time.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
What if Microsofts will not achieve their goals with their gaming division? That doesn't mean that they will not be successful in terms of revenue. Maybe they just will not be successful enough in the eyes of their stakeholders. Would this result in multiple thousand layoffs like we saw after the Nokia acquisition?
If there ever was a time for them to drop the Xbox brand, that would have been this generation, yet the business has been profitable despite the shortcomings at launch. Instead of winding down the business, they have doubled down and invested in the future.

Why does The Last of Us exist? Where did Horizon come from? I seem to recall Sony Santa Monica collaborating on over a dozen other games in the last two generations alone that weren't God of War, and Sony dumping a high eight/low nine figure sum into a new IP project that failed prior to returning to God of War.

In all those cases Sony let studios expend resources outside of their flagship franchises. When faced with the same decision MS let Bungie walk rather than stop being a Halo factory.

Microsoft also spent the middle part of last generation closing internal studios and pushing most of the ones still open into making Kinect games.

They were then incredibly slow to change this generation even as that failure was being reported by every media outlet there is.

The histories here aren't remotely comparable. Sony has walked the walk on letting studios pitch a variety of projects and being open to green lighting something new. MS has said this before with different PR personalities attached and it has not yet once come to fruition.

Their five new studios are:
The Initiative - a new start up clearly intended to draw away talent from other Santa Monica based studios, headed by David Gallagher , formerly of CD. If they reveal a game in the next 2 years that'll be a mild surprise and are likely 3+ from releasing anything. Why wasn't something like this done any time prior in the past 5 years? Will they get something out or will this turn into another Black Tusk/Coalition scenario where MS shutters something new early to stick them on another IP (who even knows what)?

Undead Labs - were already making exclusive content for Microsoft. If MS thinks State of Decay 2, a game I personally enjoy, is a corollary to what Netflix is doing on the TV/movies side or what Sony is doing in the first party game development side they're sadly mistaken as to where this industry is at today. Again, I like SoD2, but that's because I don't mind quite a bit of jank in my games. SoD2 even tests my patience. It is one of the most janky, glitch riddled games to come out of a major publisher this generation. If this is supposed to be a flagship acquisition both sides of the partnership need to step their game up pretty massively to deliver something more palatable to the average gamer.

Playground Games - again already an exclusive partner. They're trying to grow them into a multiple project studio. That is far from a guarantee of success.

Ninja Theory - the first real acquisition that might actually grow their first party offerings in the near term, but Ninja Theory isn't exactly the most productive developer of all time. They're a one project every three years studio, and just put out Hellblade. So 2020?

Compulsion Games - Young studio who have put out Contrast (2013) and We Happy Few (2018). There should be meaningful concerns about both reliability and productivity here. If it takes them another 5 years that's 2023 until we'll see anything, and I don't think anyone would be pleased with something comparable to We Happy Few as the product of this relationship.

In short this push was them formally acquiring already existing partners, starting a new studio, buying another (Compulsion) who will effectively need a similar level of expansion to get to where a first party studio should be, and Ninja Theory. I'm generally a fan of Ninja Theory so that's cool to me, but then they could have contracted Ninja Theory as far back as 2013 if they wanted to, it isn't like NT wasn't looking for work.

Microsoft has spent the last ~3-4 years talking about their renewed commitment to first party software, yet this E3 was the first semi-tangible news on that front and it's basically them bragging about getting to the starting line.

Meanwhile Sony and Nintendo have lapped them and are coming around again.

To make matters worse it feels like even their recent releases are just tone deaf as to where gaming is at right now. They spent literally years hyping Sea of Thieves and it releases as barren as a beta. State of Decay 2 is as janky as the first. Crackdown 3 is dematerializing into vaporware before our eyes. They've even had to run a PR and rebuild campaign for The Master Chief Collection. How do you fuck up an up-port of the most iconic game your company even has, and then take years to make meaningful progress on fixing it?

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here as these are the same issues they've had for years. I really like what MS is trying to do with Game Pass. That's pretty cool as a concept, but they've got to be able to feed it. So far it looks like the only reason they're into the Game Pass first party titles day one concept is because their first party titles aren't bankable enough to where a $10/month sub attracting people out of curiosity who bounce straight off is more viable than asking $60 for these experiences individually.

That and you can't be the Netflix of video games with their trash tier UI. Clean that mess up.
1. Buying second party studios you have worked with is never a bad idea. Sony has done that in the past, Nintendo has done the same. In Microsoft's case, they should have done that with DICE, BioWare, Bizarre and Remedy. Three of those were bought off by third party publishers.

2. A company can never change instantly. For any company to change, you need a vision, and the vision of the leadership is what steers it forward or holds it back. Xbox under Terry Myerson was held back and it was not until his ouster that we started hearing of changes coming in. It was last year that Phil Spencer first indicated that they were going to build or acquire new studios in an interview with Bloomberg. They ended up doing both.

3. The Studios.
a) The Initiative: This is going to be another studio that Microsoft has started from the ground up and they have a good track record of starting studios and having them deliver a quality title on their first attempt. Turn 10, 343i, The Coalition were all built from the ground up and they are cornerstone studios for the Redmond based company. There is not a single person that believes that we will see a game from The Initiative soon, but they have been given the money to hire the best in the industry to try and deliver a huge game. This is all we can ask of Microsoft. I fail to understand the rant about Gears of War. A huge franchise needed an internal developer and they got one that did the game justice.

b) Playground Games: It would be silly not to buy this studio given their output in Forza Horizon 3 and Forza Horizon 4 have scored 91 and 92 on metacritic. Forza Horizon 2 scored 86 with the original scoring 85. This is the model of consistency any publisher would want from any developer they are working with. You are right that they are growing a second studio and that this is not a guarantee for success, but what should Microsoft do? Stand pat and do nothing when complaints have been about their first party offering all generation?

c) Ninja Theory: Another developer that has gotten better with each game that they have released. This was the jewel in the companies that they because they have a track record of making good games and they had not worked exclusively on Xbox since their original game. Enslaved, DMC: Devil May Cry and Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice are all quality titles, the latter being done by a team of 20 on a tiny budget.

d) Undead Labs and Compulsion Games: Of all the studios that Microsoft have, these are the two that have to prove themselves. The games they have release have had a lack of polish. Maybe what they need is more staff, more funding, more support, more time or a combination of all four. Guerrilla was not a great developer when Sony acquired them, but look at what they have done with Killzone3, Killzone 3 and Horizon Zero Dawn.

If your complaint was games or their lack of investment in them, then you really lack a platform to complain about their investment in studios.
 

xabbott

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,065
Florida
That doesn't mean Microsoft won't close any of their studios if their games don't perform as expected. They've closed plenty of studios already.
Atleast Microsoft seems to allow some of these studios to buy themselves out. Like Bungie and Twisted Pixel. Also studio closure even happens when you're #1 as Sony closed down the Driveclub devs and those teams working on the f2p stuff.
 

More Butter

Banned
Jun 12, 2018
1,890
Yep. It is much easier to copy services from your competitors like gamepass or BC, than start to build and buy these gaming studios and make games that are successful
It's pretty well known at this point that there was an internal battle in MS over the role gaming plays. It seems like there was a struggle between Phil and Terry Meyerson over Satya's heart though I might be reading too much into it. Phil's delightful little dimples won Satya over and boom investment is happening. I think the Xbox team has understood for years but MS as a whole wasn't on board.
 

MisterR

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,463
Don't know that I would come out and pat myself on the back for finally addressing first party content after years of complaints. Here's hoping this leads to more and better games though.
 

More Butter

Banned
Jun 12, 2018
1,890
I genuinely think the thought of an improved Xbox offering on here actually terrifies people, it's fucking pathetic.
Let's give people a little credit. Xbox has made a lot of poor decision in their first party offerings and has announced too early and cancelled a lot of games. Hell as a fan I have been pissed half the time. MS still has not delivered the goods on this new vision of gaming even though it looks promising. MS brought this reality and perception on themselves and people aren't ready to think otherwise. If they deliver great games people will change their minds.
 

Premium

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
836
NC
Maybe you wan't to check out what these studios did since they work for Sony ...

Everyone always congratulates Sony for letting these studios spread their wings, but not until they've churned our 1-4 sequels of the same game.

Should we just ignore the fact that it took sometimes (4) titles before a particular studio was given more creative freedom?
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,643
Like Uncharted 1-4? Like Last of Us 1-2? Like Infamous 1-3? Like Killzone 1-4? Like God of War 1-4?

I could keep going but what's the point?

Killzone is dead, studio moved on to new IP. Infamous is dead, studio moved on to new IP. Uncharted is (probably) dead, studio moved on to new IP. Old GoW is dead, new one is GoW only in the name and MC. LBP is dead, studio moved on to new IP. I hope R&C is not dead even though Insomniac has moved on to new IP and its planned sequels.

There's a reason why PS platform doesn't have a mascot, most of their IPs don't drag on for more than 2 generation.
 

DisturbedSwan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,815
Hampshire, UK.
Wouldn't call Compulsion or Undead Labs great studios myself, I'd argue even Ninja Theory haven't ever made a great game before.

With the way Microsoft ran Lionhead and Rare at one time I've got doubts over the new Playground Studio and The Initiative too.

So we'll see. I definitely expect next to nothing from MS in terms of exclusive games in the AAA space until deep into next gen.

I will say though if MS buys Obsidian and lets it have the autonomy it needs that'll be pretty amazing.
 

Rocco

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,330
Texas
Let's give people a little credit. Xbox has made a lot of poor decision in their first party offerings and has announced too early and cancelled a lot of games. Hell as a fan I have been pissed half the time. MS still has not delivered the goods on this new vision of gaming even though it looks promising. MS brought this reality and perception on themselves and people aren't ready to think otherwise. If they deliver great games people will change their minds.

Out of curiosity, do some of you think "Microsoft/Xbox" are sentient logo's running the company? Or do you understand that actual people make decisions, and that Microsoft has had sweeping leadership changes with nothing but positive results since?
 

goonergaz

Member
Nov 18, 2017
1,710
If there ever was a time for them to drop the Xbox brand, that would have been this generation, yet the business has been profitable despite the shortcomings at launch. Instead of winding down the business, they have doubled down and invested in the future.

1. Buying second party studios you have worked with is never a bad idea. Sony has done that in the past, Nintendo has done the same. In Microsoft's case, they should have done that with DICE, BioWare, Bizarre and Remedy. Three of those were bought off by third party publishers.

2. A company can never change instantly. For any company to change, you need a vision, and the vision of the leadership is what steers it forward or holds it back. Xbox under Terry Myerson was held back and it was not until his ouster that we started hearing of changes coming in. It was last year that Phil Spencer first indicated that they were going to build or acquire new studios in an interview with Bloomberg. They ended up doing both.

3. The Studios.
a) The Initiative: This is going to be another studio that Microsoft has started from the ground up and they have a good track record of starting studios and having them deliver a quality title on their first attempt. Turn 10, 343i, The Coalition were all built from the ground up and they are cornerstone studios for the Redmond based company. There is not a single person that believes that we will see a game from The Initiative soon, but they have been given the money to hire the best in the industry to try and deliver a huge game. This is all we can ask of Microsoft. I fail to understand the rant about Gears of War. A huge franchise needed an internal developer and they got one that did the game justice.

b) Playground Games: It would be silly not to buy this studio given their output in Forza Horizon 3 and Forza Horizon 4 have scored 91 and 92 on metacritic. Forza Horizon 2 scored 86 with the original scoring 85. This is the model of consistency any publisher would want from any developer they are working with. You are right that they are growing a second studio and that this is not a guarantee for success, but what should Microsoft do? Stand pat and do nothing when complaints have been about their first party offering all generation?

c) Ninja Theory: Another developer that has gotten better with each game that they have released. This was the jewel in the companies that they because they have a track record of making good games and they had not worked exclusively on Xbox since their original game. Enslaved, DMC: Devil May Cry and Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice are all quality titles, the latter being done by a team of 20 on a tiny budget.

d) Undead Labs and Compulsion Games: Of all the studios that Microsoft have, these are the two that have to prove themselves. The games they have release have had a lack of polish. Maybe what they need is more staff, more funding, more support, more time or a combination of all four. Guerrilla was not a great developer when Sony acquired them, but look at what they have done with Killzone3, Killzone 3 and Horizon Zero Dawn.

If your complaint was games or their lack of investment in them, then you really lack a platform to complain about their investment in studios.

I think it's great they've done this and it puts pressure on Sony to keep their game up, the only thing I find off is the timing...I mean, they should have been doing this a couple years ago instead of concentrating on the X to appease a minority they should have been concentrating on sowing these seeds.

Reason I say this is because - let's assume - XB2 is revealed within 18 months (which seems very likely), you have to wonder what these studios will be able to show and how far from release those will be.

At PS5 launch we pretty much know what to expect (provided BC is in, which seems likely) - so other than adding a sprinkling of exclusive reveals there's no real surprises and most people will already be comfortable with what PS5 will offer.

With XB2 we will have potentially little in the immediate pipeline and a lot of 'coming soon exclusives' with very little solid info. I hope I'm wrong because we don't want another start like last gen.
 

Premium

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
836
NC
I genuinely think the thought of an improved Xbox offering on here actually terrifies people, it's fucking pathetic.

It does. The success of the 360 shows what even a halfway-committed MS can do against Sony.

They're back to innovating and setting their own path with the BC and Gamepass. It harkens back to the 360 era when they started the generation with serious momentum.

It's exciting to see them back in attack-mode.
 

R dott B

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,136
Dontnod would be a good pick up. I'm just glad they are getting serious about their first party.
 

WinFonda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,436
USA
Like Uncharted 1-4? Like Last of Us 1-2? Like Infamous 1-3? Like Killzone 1-4? Like God of War 1-4?

I could keep going but what's the point?
Uncharted 1 was not a mega hit. Naughty Dog wanted to do a sequel. Same goes for most of these games. Almost all these studios have successfully migrated to new IPs save for God of War which just went thru a massive rework. So?? Yeah I dunno, keep going.
 

Kiekura

Member
Mar 23, 2018
4,043
It's pretty well known at this point that there was an internal battle in MS over the role gaming plays. It seems like there was a struggle between Phil and Terry Meyerson over Satya's heart though I might be reading too much into it. Phil's delightful little dimples won Satya over and boom investment is happening. I think the Xbox team has understood for years but MS as a whole wasn't on board.

Yeah I know that. Microsoft is now on the right track, but this is really slow process, compared to something like services.
 

Rocco

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,330
Texas
At PS5 launch we pretty much know what to expect (provided BC is in, which seems likely) - so other than adding a sprinkling of exclusive reveals there's no real surprises and most people will already be comfortable with what PS5 will offer.

With XB2 we will have potentially little in the immediate pipeline and a lot of 'coming soon exclusives' with very little solid info. I hope I'm wrong because we don't want another start like last gen.

Wat? You just...made a bunch of shit up? lol
 

RoKKeR

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,385
Forgive my cynicism -- I think MS might do this until each studio's first game releases, but if those games don't meet sales expectations, corporate meddling will begin.
Sales expectations are becoming a moot point with Game Pass... that's sort of the point of them expanding so heavily with 1P.
 

Bear and bird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,596
I genuinely think the thought of an improved Xbox offering on here actually terrifies people, it's fucking pathetic.
Well. At least the worst offenders have moved on from the "MS should sell off Xbox" posts. That's progress, I guess?

I remember the old site had some utterly terrible hot takes on the future of Xbox back in 2013 and 2014.
 

Premium

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
836
NC
Uncharted 1 was not a mega hit. Naughty Dog wanted to do a sequel. Same goes for most of these games. Almost all these studios have successfully migrated to new IPs save for God of War which just went thru a massive rework. So?? Yeah I dunno, keep going.

If you want to play obtuse and miss the overall point I responded to with that comment, specifically regarding the sequel repetition, then by all means do so.

The reality of those franchises is that they exist in multiple iterations. Those are facts.

Don't let facts bother you so much.
 

Khrol

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,179
I genuinely think the thought of an improved Xbox offering on here actually terrifies people, it's fucking pathetic.

That's really all I'm getting from this thread.

Anyway this is good news and echoes what Phil has been saying about giving developers the resources, time and freedom they need to make truly great games. When suits who don't understand or care about gaming meddle the product often suffers.
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,290
I think it's great they've done this and it puts pressure on Sony to keep their game up, the only thing I find off is the timing...I mean, they should have been doing this a couple years ago instead of concentrating on the X to appease a minority they should have been concentrating on sowing these seeds.

Reason I say this is because - let's assume - XB2 is revealed within 18 months (which seems very likely), you have to wonder what these studios will be able to show and how far from release those will be.

At PS5 launch we pretty much know what to expect (provided BC is in, which seems likely) - so other than adding a sprinkling of exclusive reveals there's no real surprises and most people will already be comfortable with what PS5 will offer.

With XB2 we will have potentially little in the immediate pipeline and a lot of 'coming soon exclusives' with very little solid info. I hope I'm wrong because we don't want another start like last gen.

How can that be true when Sony's big hitters are about to release titles soon ish? How can you say they'll be anymore ready than Microsoft's? Everything seems to point towards a transition where these devs will be releasing cross platform titles and not anything specifically for ps5 launch.

I'm also not sure what developing the x has to do with games. I'm sure stinks wasn't the lead hardware person making the x. They have different personnel for that. It's a big company.
 

Necron

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,291
Switzerland
Edit: Nvm. Misread the article.

I can only hope that this new initiative lasts longer this time around. They had 10 internal studios back when Mattrick was the boss as well.

Hope so too. Time will tell. Cultivating and building a team that can output what MS likely wants to output takes years of effort. I just hope this strategy has some longevity behind it and these acquired studios aren't dissolved immediately after a, potentially first, "failed" project.
 

AnubisRising

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
307
I would say im surprised at the reactions but well is an xbox thread so yeah....

Cant wait to see what all the studios turn out especially playground and ninja theory
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
Xbox has been rebooted. Talking about what they did prior to late 2017 is a waste of time. This is really the first time their gaming division has unified support from the top down...with their investors behind them. Not hearing the usual infighting and major investors trying to sabotage gaming so that Microsoft can focus on their "core" business. That's probably due to Xbox outperforming their "core" Windows division.

Greenberg is still a weak link. Marketing at Xbox still sucks. When you look at how Microsoft is advertising Forza Horizon vs how Sony is leveraging Spider-Man or advertised God of War, it's a joke of a comparison. Marketing FH4 should be easy. You have plenty of car commercials to use as a reference. These jokey commercials with celebrities that don't know how to play games are embarrassing.

Greenberg should be reassigned. He seems out of touch with the gaming community. When he's not saying something cringeworthy, he's a robot. Repeating what Spencer said months ago in a much more robotic and say-nothing tone is not news or worth its own thread. Everything he said here is a repeat nearly word for word of what Spencer said at E3.

This thread should be locked. Greenberg should be reassigned to somewhere other than the gaming division. That's all I got.
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
I'm thinking of a good reason, why people insist on atributting that kind of attitude only to them and i honestly couldn't find one. I prefer the way they do stuff, just develop this for us and then you can go your way, even without keeping the IP, like in Alan Wake.

You won't find a reason, at least not with me because I never said Microsoft is the only one closing studios. :)

But yes, I prefer what you suggested as well: it's much better to find a suitable 3rd party studio to develop a certain exclusive instead of buying the studio.
 

Ausroachman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,394
Ms doesn't get much credit this gen but they have done some amazing things that help all gamers

- funded titanfall
- helped launch eaaccess
- backwards compatability
- gamepass
- supporting crossplay
- whisper quiet xbx design (which all console makers could learn from)

They dropped the ball big time with the stupid tv focus , but they have made huge gains in trying to turn it around .

They only thing they have failed in is big blockbuster first party exclusives , and marketing deals , hopefully they can slowly rebuild that as well.

I can't wait to see what playground bring especially .
 
Last edited:

grosbard

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
767
I get that a lot of people are hung up on "world's greatest" but think about it logically. Several of these studios recently got purchased. They don't want to hear something like, "Yeah we have some studios that are pretty good. Hopefully they make some sweet games and actually prove useful to the bottom line." Saying "world's greatest" is just as much of a moral booster and compliment than PR speak, imo.
 

Derrick01

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,289
Like Uncharted 1-4? Like Last of Us 1-2? Like Infamous 1-3? Like Killzone 1-4? Like God of War 1-4?

I could keep going but what's the point?

This is funny because you listed 2 IPs from the same developer which completely proves the point of the person you're quoting, that they had the ability to try something new despite having a successful IP.

GG and Sucker Punch were allowed to spend 5+ years working on a new IP as well. God of War is a bit of an odd case because Sony was actually done with it and the devs had to beg them to let them do a new one and change it up a ton.