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Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,848
I think everyone who played MGS3 must know about Ivan Raidenovitch Raikov, the major of Volgin's army and also heavily implied to be in a relationship with Volgin.

latest

As his name and appearance already shows, he is made to look like Raiden, and the "joke" was that he appeared this time as being homosexual, because that was what westerners were rabidly "joking" to the point that it reached his ears.

Anyway, I did a bit of digging and the way it was framed is a bit fucked up in my opinion

What Kojima had said about this in the director's commentary was that he left the decision to knock out or *kill* Raidenovitch up to the player. The goal was simply to steal his clothes and dump him in a locker, which can be done by knocking him out.

So It wasn't that he was in the game as a joke, it was also that you could take matters into your hand and end his life because you dislike him since he is the stand-in for Raiden, but this time as the gay man that bigots tried to frame him as.

Kojima said:
Also, whether you knock out Raikov or kill him is indication of your love towards Raiden. I'm guessing it'll be a swift death for him in Europe. But, that decision I leave up to the player. That is the essence of MGS.

Killing any other "key" players would result in a time paradox in MGS3, but somehow Raikov can be killed without any repercussions, even if the joke is that he stands in for Raiden. The attention to detail is also thrown out of the window, it doesn't matter that your uniform is full of blood from killing him, Snake can wear his uniform to infiltrate the base without any issue.

____

His name is also supposed to be a pun spelling out "Thunderbolt's bitch" (Thunderbolt being Volgin) according to Kojima
Kojima said:
Here he comes! Because he's raiden-no (thunderbolt's) "bitch" (Raidenovich). However, 雷電 Raiden is surprisingly popular actually.

He also had put a photo where you could see Volgin's hand reaching for Raikov's crotch but it was cut off from the edges according to Kojima.
Kojima said:
The photograph of Volgin and Raikov, look at them smiling. It is cut off in the photo so it isn't clear, but the Colonel's hand is reaching towards the direction of Major Raikov's crotch.

Kojima also played the joke about Snake being clueless that Raikov is gay

Snake: EVA, about this Major Raikov...
EVA: Yes?
Snake: You said he had 'Colonel-class' authorization, right?
EVA: Right.
Snake: But his rank is Major. So how can he have 'Colonel-class' authorization?
EVA: Raikov is treated as an officer of equal rank with Colonel Volgin.
Snake: Treated as the same rank?
EVA: Yeah.
Snake: Even though he's a Major?
EVA: Right.
Snake: Why?
EVA: You don't know?
Snake: No.
EVA: Even after seeing that photo?
Snake: Nope.
EVA: Has anyone ever told you you're a bit slow?
Snake: What are you talking about?
EVA: I'll leave you to think about it.
Snake: Wait a minute...
EVA: Gotta go.
__

Dialogue 2:

Snake: EVA, what kind of guy is Raikov?
EVA: He's Volgin's precious pet.
Snake: Anything else?
EVA: He's got a handsome face.
Snake: Is that what you really think?
EVA: No, I'm just being objective. I'm not interested in people who aren't interested in me.
Snake: I was hoping to get some useful info for becoming him.
EVA: He seems mild-mannered, but the kind of guy who would sit in his room and admire his bug collection.
Snake: That still doesn't help me much. Anything more?
EVA: I really don't know, Snake. Can't you just observe him and copy him yourself?
Snake: Why are you so evasive about this?
EVA: ...People like me don't even exist in his little world.
Snake: I see...
EVA: Okay then...
Snake: Did he dump you?
EVA: "I see..." huh? You don't get it at all! No, not THAT. I'm just not good with his type.
Snake: But...
EVA: If this conversation goes on any longer, I'm going to send my fist through this radio into your head! Figure him out yourself. Later!
Snake: ?
__

Dialogue 3:

EVA: The security in the west wing where Sokolov is being held is extremely tight. The only ones who are cleared to enter the west wing are those with colonel-class authorization. One of those people is Major Raikov. To get into the west wing, you could disguise yourself as Raikov. First, you'll have to take Raikov out and steal his uniform. He's in the east wing of the weapons lab in the center of Groznyj Grad. The east wing is northeast/east/north of your current location. Head northeast./Head east./Head north./You're in the vicinity of the east wing. Proceed to infiltrate.
Snake: All right. But why?
EVA: Huh?
Snake: Why do I have to steal Raikov's clothes from him? What about that scientist outfit...
EVA: That's not going to work this time around. Raikov's uniform is a special type that only he wears. You'll have to get it directly from him. Normally I'm pretty good at getting men to take off their clothes, but it won't work on him.
Snake: ?
EVA: You, on the other hand, might have a better chance with him.
Snake: What's that supposed to mean?
EVA: What indeed. Anyway, the only way to get Raikov's uniform is to take him out and steal it yourself. He's somewhere in the east wing.

Source: http://www.tentenpro.com/muni_shinobu/mgs3/commentary4.html
http://www.tentenpro.com/muni_shinobu/mgs3/commentary4.html

Looking at it again, it is weird that he would specifically implement Raiden as a joke and making him gay just because that's what bigots were hammering about. Why would you indulge on what bigots says instead of standing your ground about the character you made ? Why even allow him to be killed as a "decision" ?

I don't understand why going through all this when the only people who would be glad about it are of the worst kind. Making Raiden the butt of the joke is one thing, retroactively making him gay through another character was utterly unnecessary.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,644
Brazil
Looking at it again, it is weird that he would specifically implement Raiden as a joke and making him gay just because that's what bigots were hammering about. Why would you indulge on what bigots says instead of standing your ground about the character you made ? Why even allow him to be killed as a "decision" ?

Because Kojima is 15 years old, haven't you paying attention ?
 

Fastidioso

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,101
Well yeah Kojima has not exactly a good "sexual culture" from different perspectives...but it seems a general problem of the Japanese society without offence to them.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,305
After Peace Walker and Phantom Pain, I'm starting to believe the only thing Kojima wrote in previous entries were the poop jokes while Fukushima wrote the rest.
 

Kaloskatoa

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
352
Well yeah Kojima has not exactly a good "sexual culture" from different perspectives...but it seems a general problem of the Japanese society without offence to them.

not justifying Japanese views towards homossexuals, but I honestly believe that back in the days of mgs3 the rest of the world found these types of jokes to be "ok".
Just watch western shows of the late 90s and early 00s, lots of ridicule towards gay people.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
not justifying Japanese views towards homossexuals, but I honestly believe that back in the days of mgs3 the rest of the world found these types of jokes to be "ok".
Just watch western shows of the late 90s and early 00s, lots of ridicule towards gay people.
This. I'm pretty certain back when MGS 3 came out I wouldn't have thought any of this was offensive.
 

Arklite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,639
Raikov isn't Raiden, he's purely a joke character, that's why no Time Paradox. As for his doppleganger reatment, I think the team felt pretty burned by the backlash against Raiden and unfortunately ran with the joke. They seemed to be rather proud of the character in MGS2 and I believe Yoji Shinkawa said Raiden's design in MGS4/Rising is a depiction of the character after being ravaged by fan critique, so they do feel he's been unfairly treated.
 

Igniz12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,433
not justifying Japanese views towards homossexuals, but I honestly believe that back in the days of mgs3 the rest of the world found these types of jokes to be "ok".
Just watch western shows of the late 90s and early 00s, lots of ridicule towards gay people.
Yup, its crazy to thing how long it's been and how far we've come(still a ways to go) but jokes like that were par for the course and no one would have batted an eye lid or cared enough to call it out.
 

Butch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,438
not justifying Japanese views towards homossexuals, but I honestly believe that back in the days of mgs3 the rest of the world found these types of jokes to be "ok".
Just watch western shows of the late 90s and early 00s, lots of ridicule towards gay people.

Yup, pretty much this. Seems unfair to judge it by today standards. It's cool to see how far we have come tho.
 

DyCy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
371
Why would killing him trigger a time paradox ? He has no impact on the rest of the series so at the end of the day he's just a disposable soldier for the player.

Regarding the Snake/Eva conversations, the butt of the joke seems to be more Snake than Raikov's homosexuality. A lot of codec conversation shows that Snake is gullible and a bit stupid.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,424
Back in the day, I thought there would be a twist and it was actually Raiden travelling into a VR simulation, nothing seemed off limits after the craziness of MGS2.
 

Whompa

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,254
I liked Raiden and honestly this doesn't really bother me. It's pretty mild and on par with the other little gags scattered throughout.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
I always saw raiden as a sort of uncomfortable commentary about the insecurities of the player.

While there are certainly homophobic overtones around this part of the game, I always saw it as more of a "jokes on you" thing.
 
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SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,353
If that was acceptable in 2004, we must have lived in two different dimensions.

Acceptable might not be the right word, but it was definitely a lot more common. You'd see a lot of gay jokes in entertainment during the early 2000's. I mean, you don't remember how popular phrases like "No homo" and "Pause" were during that period? This is one of the biggest sports announcers using "Pause" as late as 2007 on national TV



If he tried that shit today he'd be off TV in a heartbeat. Even though it was the 2000's, a lot has obviously changed in terms of how criticism of usage of language like that in media. You don't hear those terms all that much now due to that.
 
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Truly Gargantuan

Still doesn't have a tag :'(
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,034
Transforming Raiden into a cyborg ninja isn't an acknowledgment of his background and how it meshes with his story.
Are you talking about Raikov or Raiden here? Raiden was raised to be a killing machine, he became just that in MGS4. Raikov has no connection to Raiden in canon beyond the "joke".
 

Crushed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,709
He kinda ran with this in MGS4 in well, just way more subtly* and not as a really nasty joke like in MGS3.

Raiden in MGS4 is literally neuter (he has no genitals, he's a skull and brain stem in a cyborg body); he has high heels built into his feet; he has a rivalry in the game with Vamp - who conforms to the trope of the sensual/bisexual vampire - which consists of them performing dance-like fights in which they repeatedly penetrate each other with long blades (like the knife that Vamp keeps sheathed right over his crotch and licks clean) while Vamp clearly gets borderline erotic pleasure from this and talks about Raiden being "the one to finally finish [him]." Also, the cyborg artificial blood is white (a reference to Policenauts and in turn to android blood in Alien) and Vamp licks Raiden's sticky white goo off of his knife and afterward, Raiden collapses from his injuries and coughs up more sticky white goo.


*When you spell it out it isn't really subtle!!
 

Deleted member 5593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,635
Stuff like this along with the depiction of gay characters in Persona 5 just show how blatant homophobia is acceptable an brushed off in Japan.
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,989
I mean raiden was kind of always a joke, this was just the next iteration of that. Having a kill decision is a very meta thing to do and of course killing him wouldnt result in a time paradox like killing ocelot would because Raikov for all intents and purposes isn't raiden and has no relation to him. The gay aspect of it is kind of what you make of it, I can see why it would be tasteless for some on the raikov front but I think Volgen was really cool
 
Oct 28, 2017
862
Hideo Kojima has always been one of those people (men especially) who has some neat ideas (nuclear disarmament ending in MGSV, MGS2's meta commentary) but his opinions on sexuality and women are a disaster even if they and people would argue they're supposed to be "ironic." He's hardly the first to be like this and won't be the last.
 

Igniz12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,433
Acceptable might not be the right word, but it was definitely a lot more common. You'd see a lot of gay jokes in entertainment during the early 2000's. I mean, you don't remember how popular phrases like "No homo" and "Pause" were during that period? This is one of the biggest sports announcers using "Pause" on TV as late as 2007 on national TV



If he tried that shit today he'd be off TV in a heartbeat. Even though it was the 2000's, a lot has obviously changed in terms of how criticism of usage of language like that in media. You don't hear those terms all that much now due to that.

Hell, I feel like even stuff like "no homo" was still being used as recently as 3-5 years back so it is not that much of a stretch to say homophobic jokes were pretty prevalent in the early 2000's.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
I always found the "Raiden is gay" jokes hilarious considering all the homoerotic shit that happens to Big Boss and Snake.

Like how much perspective did these people lack?
He kinda ran with this in MGS4 in well, just way more subtly* and not as a really nasty joke like in MGS3.

Raiden in MGS4 is literally neuter (he has no genitals, he's a skull and brain stem in a cyborg body); he has high heels built into his feet; he has a rivalry in the game with Vamp - who conforms to the trope of the sensual/bisexual vampire - which consists of them performing dance-like fights in which they repeatedly penetrate each other with long blades (like the knife that Vamp keeps sheathed right over his crotch and licks clean) while Vamp clearly gets borderline erotic pleasure from this and talks about Raiden being "the one to finally finish [him]." Also, the cyborg artificial blood is white (a reference to Policenauts and in turn to android blood in Alien) and Vamp licks Raiden's sticky white goo off of his knife and afterward, Raiden collapses from his injuries and coughs up more sticky white goo.


*When you spell it out it isn't really subtle!!
I mean it also ends with him back together with his wife and has a son.

Meanwhile Snake and Otacon go and retire with their adopted daughter.

Just saying I think there's someone gay here but it's not the blonde guy.
 

The Omega Man

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,901
He kinda ran with this in MGS4 in well, just way more subtly* and not as a really nasty joke like in MGS3.

Raiden in MGS4 is literally neuter (he has no genitals, he's a skull and brain stem in a cyborg body); he has high heels built into his feet; he has a rivalry in the game with Vamp - who conforms to the trope of the sensual/bisexual vampire - which consists of them performing dance-like fights in which they repeatedly penetrate each other with long blades (like the knife that Vamp keeps sheathed right over his crotch and licks clean) while Vamp clearly gets borderline erotic pleasure from this and talks about Raiden being "the one to finally finish [him]." Also, the cyborg artificial blood is white (a reference to Policenauts and in turn to android blood in Alien) and Vamp licks Raiden's sticky white goo off of his knife and afterward, Raiden collapses from his injuries and coughs up more sticky white goo.


*When you spell it out it isn't really subtle!!
Holy Shit! never thought about it that way.

Kojima said he designed Raiden by interviewing Japanese women, they wanted a Pretty Boy and said Snake was too ugly.
 

Deleted member 2595

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,475
I always thought it was more insidious that Volgin always did the crotch-grabbing

I didn't necessarily ever think Raidenovic was ever complicit/consenting in it

But that's probably too nuanced for Kojima
 

NamasteWager

Member
Oct 27, 2017
879
I mean, easy MGS explanation for why there wasnt a time parodox could be that after you killed him someone lost a pinky finger, saw his dead body, took his pinky finger and put it on their hand, and now that person turned into Raiden. Simple science really.
/s
 

ghostemoji

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,816
I always saw raiden as a sort of uncomfortable commentary about the insecurities of the player.

Well there are certainly homophobic overtones around this part of the game, I always saw it as more of a "jokes on you" thing.

I always kind of followed this mindset as well, especially after talking about the games with other people my age. People were very upset about Raiden, who they perceived as effeminate, and especially things like needing to play through a section of the game with him being naked. However, Kojima is pretty plainly stating his intentions in the OP, so it kind of makes me unsure about that.

I also have to admit I wouldn't (and didn't) bat an eye at this when I played the game in 2004 or whenever it came out. I just thought it was a callback to the President scene in MGS2 and didn't think much of it. I thought it was more of an easter egg type thing than anything else.