About Kojima making a gay Raiden look-a-like in MGS3 as a "joke"

Calles

Member
Nov 1, 2017
6,668
Is there even another game from the time or before that prominently features a homosexual relationship?

Definitely dated and offensive by todays standards, but I always thought it was kinda neat that it gave Volgin a bit more nuance rather than simply being your typical macho russian renegade villain.
Fear Effect sequel.
 

Gonzalo

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Oct 29, 2017
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User banned (4 days): avatar-shaming/personal attack, accumulated infractions
Yeah, it's fucked up. Also every MGS game has had sexist shit in it, from Meryl in her underwear in 1, to the various "Hold R1" moments in 3 and 4, to how Kojima wanted the mocap actresses for the Beauties in 4 to be nude for his own enjoyment, the entire gross-ass shit with Paz in Peace Walker, and of course Quiet. There's also the shit in Snatcher as well.

I honestly don't get why Kojima gets a pass from so many.

You have a 12 year old cartoon girl as your avatar.
 

JPLC

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
86
Canada
Not trying to excuse Kojima's more problematic aspects (including this case), but I think it also might have been partially a case of him being angry at his fanbase and "giving them what they wanted" out of spite.
Something like, "Is this what you thought of Raiden? A character we cared a great deal about and a character so many of you missed the point of? Fine. Here you go. Enjoy."
Arguably large chunks of Kojima's MG games post MGS2/3 can be read in this light, with MGS4 possibly being the most "angry". It's not an interpretation that's bulletproof, but personally, it's an interpretation that explains a lot about where the MG series ended up (MGSV included).
 
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Dreamboum

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
16,707
Perhaps you need to know your history so you can gain better context. There wasn't a major outlet for LGBTQ+ voices to be heard and taken seriously by the mainstream in their depiction in media in 2004. We were all pretty ignorant in what was acceptable, including me. The evolution of the internet, 24/7 news cycle, numerous platforms, social media, and better representation in TV and films has made a dramatic change in getting more people conscious or woke about it now.
That's not the history I was asking about from you. If your answer is "there was no one", then you're just claiming there is no history.

Remember when Gollum called Dobby "A fucking Fag" for the MTV awards in 2003?


This is a product of the times back then. It wouldn't fly today, but it definitely did back then.
I'm not disputing that, but by 2004 people knew what was wrong even if they chose to keep using it. MTV were their own beast. They were built on this kind of shock humour. Even today plenty of people uses this word. That it is less prevalent in entertainment today is true, however.

But even then, now what ? It's not Kojima calling someone names, it's Kojima giving the option to kill a character where the butt of the joke is his physical similarity and his perceived sexuality.
 

Kyle Cross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,442
You have a 12 year old cartoon girl as your avatar.
And you have an MGS avatar, so no surprise you take offense to someone who finds sexist shit in your favorite video game series to be appalling. Do you defend those elements? Excuse them? Seems like it from your petty attack.

Also, the character in my avatar isn't 12 nor is there any problem with my avatar. Nice try.
 

iksenpets

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Oct 26, 2017
3,157
Dallas, TX
The sexual politics of Metal Gear are a smoldering disaster, no matter how much you may like the rest of the games. There’s no denying that.
 

EarthPainting

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Oct 26, 2017
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Town adjacent to Silent Hill
Yeah, he's oblivious to his casual sexism and homophobia, is immature, obsessed with celebrities, loves edgelord drama, make long winded cutscenes of questionable quality, put himself in his own game, but enjoys a certain level of respect and status because of his big budget cinematic approach. ...has anyone ever seen Kojima and David Cage in the same room?
 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,465
This is more an "early 2000s" things than anything else. You guys don't realise how quickly attitudes about LGBTQ people changed during the past decade, at least in the mainstream US.
He kinda ran with this in MGS4 in well, just way more subtly* and not as a really nasty joke like in MGS3.

Raiden in MGS4 is literally neuter (he has no genitals, he's a skull and brain stem in a cyborg body); he has high heels built into his feet; he has a rivalry in the game with Vamp - who conforms to the trope of the sensual/bisexual vampire - which consists of them performing dance-like fights in which they repeatedly penetrate each other with long blades (like the knife that Vamp keeps sheathed right over his crotch and licks clean) while Vamp clearly gets borderline erotic pleasure from this and talks about Raiden being "the one to finally finish [him]." Also, the cyborg artificial blood is white (a reference to Policenauts and in turn to android blood in Alien) and Vamp licks Raiden's sticky white goo off of his knife and afterward, Raiden collapses from his injuries and coughs up more sticky white goo.


*When you spell it out it isn't really subtle!!
I thought you were gonna talk about the kiss during the final fight.
 

Griff

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Aug 12, 2018
2,259
West Hollywood
I will say as bad as some of this stuff comes across I don’t think he actually intends any ill will.
I agree. That's why I think his iffy portrayals of LGBTQ characters come more from his Japanese cultural upbringing rather than any place of specific malice.

There has been a lot of speculation, mostly back in the day. Maybe he was responding to that. Not to excuse any of the iffier things.
Could have been. I don't think it's expressly a bad tweet we should condemn, I was just using it as an example of the kinds of things he has said in the past that are in line with relatively standard Japanese views towards homosexuality. I do not think it came from desire for ill-will.
 

Memento

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,534
I guess I was too naive when I played it but yeah... that is definitely problematic to say the least.
 

MechaX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,583
This is more an "early 2000s" things than anything else. You guys don't realise how quickly attitudes about LGBTQ people changed during the past decade, at least in the mainstream US.
No kidding. Either some folks here are just young, or really don’t remember what the early 2000s were like with this kind of thing.

Like, as a hypothetical, would something like the Juggernaut Bitch video work in today’s age?
 

Mesoian

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,718
Like, as a hypothetical, would something like the Juggernaut Bitch video work in today’s age?
It sure as hell didn't work in Xmen 3.

If you don't like it, don't support his creations.
In a lot of ways, it helps to be ultra vocal if you like someone's work but find a section of it reprehensible. The message that you will keep coming back and have the dollars to prove it is often times more effective than a total boycott as a total boycott takes you out of the conversation entirely. Discussion and understanding works a lot better than full-on avoidance a lot of the time.
 

Iggy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,686
It started as American Gamers making homophobic jokes that reached Japan.
Gamer culture in the West was already trash before the Gamergate. I don't believe people who think "things are different now".

There is also the issue that Japanese people mimic their attitudes on western attitudes for many topics. Homosexuality is bad and a disease, said the British and American visitors at the end of the XIXth century, and attitudes to gay men change horribly in the span of a generation. Blacks are dumb, violente thugs or servants to white saviours, say popular American cinema, and then imitators follow suit with stereotypes in their mangas and videogames. In the 90s, gay is an insult widely used among younger people, and effeminate men become used as jokes.

Yes, attitudes change in the West, but the influence of the cultural American powerhouse is much deeper than the American people imagine. Low-profile movies from the 80s and 90s are still widely popular world wide, and their messages still resonate now.

Also, Kojima is an idiot.
 

Regulus Tera

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Oct 25, 2017
12,465
If you guys expect anyone who made creative works before the past decade to have a spotless record in their depiction of non-heterosexual relationships then you are gonna have to burn a lot of bridges.
 

Mesoian

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,718
Persona 5 shows that that is both not true and also barely anything has changed.

Japanese games are still wildly homophobic whenever they breach the subject.

Yoko Taro is an extreme exception that deserves to be idolized more.
Agreed on all counts. Persona 4's cowardice when it came to even discuss LGBT+ stuff seriously and Persona 5's actual condemnation of it was jarring and disappointing.

If you guys expect anyone who made creative works before the past decade to have a spotless record in their depiction of non-heterosexual relationships then you are gonna have to burn a lot of bridges.
I mean, I don't expect everyone to have the best record. People learn, people change.

But I don't have to forget about the shit they pulled either. And neither should you.

Like real talk, if Death Stranding is going to be real eye opening as related to Kojima's ability to tell a story without including some dumb gross objectifying shit in it.
 
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Dreamboum

Dreamboum

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Oct 28, 2017
16,707
What? LOL. I don't understand what you're saying.
I don't believe there weren't any gay writers in game journalism at this point in time, I just don't know about them. That was the point of me saying I don't know my history, but you responded with something else.

If you guys expect anyone who made creative works before the past decade to have a spotless record in their depiction of non-heterosexual relationships then you are gonna have to burn a lot of bridges.
To be fair, this isn't a list of Kojima's "missteps", I'm not holding a trial. I was puzzled at the inclusion of a dangerous gay joke in MGS3 and made a thread for discussion

There would be a lot more to talk about that would put into question the "expiration date" of Kojima's views on sexuality. Like another poster said, Policenauts being something else entirely.

 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,465
I mean, I don't expect everyone to have the best record. People learn, people change.

But I don't have to forget about the shit they pulled either. And neither should you.

Like real talk, if Death Stranding is going to be real eye opening as related to Kojima's ability to tell a story without including some dumb gross objectifying shit in it.
I think Kojima's ability to tell a story period departed when Tomokazu Fukushima left buuuuut that's a topic for another thread.
 

Kyle Cross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,442
What would you want people to do? Boycott his games?
No, but all you ever see is praise both in and out of the industry. It's not like you gotta dig for this shit in his games, it's pretty well known. He deserves to be criticized heavily for it, and if he doesn't take it to heart and admit his past mistakes and drops these elements from his work then that says all that needs to be said about his character.
 

Blade Runner

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,449
Snake jacks it to a pinup girl in a locker
If you shake the controller while talking to Rose in MGS4 her breasts jiggle
Your introduction to Meryl in MGS1 involves peeping and panty shots
The entire concept of Quiet

This sort of trash has been a part of his games forever, I've never understood why it gets a pass.
 

Mesoian

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,718
Snake jacks it to a pinup girl in a locker
If you shake the controller while talking to Rose in MGS4 her breasts jiggle
Your introduction to Meryl in MGS1 involves peeping and panty shots
The entire concept of Quiet

This sort of trash has been a part of his games forever, I've never understood why it gets a pass.
Because the rest of the respective game is brilliant.

It's bewildering.
 

Zacmortar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,997
As much as I appreciate Taro (and Kojima), how about we not or at least be very careful idolizing any creatives (or anyone)

That level of admiration isn't worth the potential disappointment
Nah, Idolizing creators is good whgen it's deserved. I love Metal Gear, but Kojima is so above and beyond up his own juvenile ass.

Yoko Taro actively writes lgbtq characters and plots in pretty much every game he's had a major hand in, while also still being incredibly humble after Automata's success. Idolizing a unique creator that isn't egotistical and is doing good for minority communities and their depictions is a step in the right direction, especially for other devs.
 

BuddyDharma

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,790
I don't believe there weren't any gay writers in game journalism at this point in time, I just don't know about them. That was the point of me saying I don't know my history, but you responded with something else.



To be fair, this isn't a list of Kojima's "missteps", I'm not holding a trial. I was puzzled at the inclusion of a dangerous gay joke in MGS3 and made a thread for discussion

There would be a lot more to talk about that would put into question the "expiration date" of Kojima's views on sexuality. Like another poster said, Policenauts being something else entirely.

Damn, nobody tell Johnathan about recent research that throws out our understanding of human sex as bimodal.

Although I object the idea that jokes can be inherently dangerous, however bigoted.
 

Deleted member 1656

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Yoko Taro actively writes lgbtq characters and plots in pretty much every game he's had a major hand in, while also still being incredibly humble after Automata's success. Idolizing a unique creator that isn't egotistical and is doing good for minority communities and their depictions is a step in the right direction, especially for other devs.
Good luck

I hope you're uniquely strict with who you deem a unique creator
 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,465
As much as I appreciate Taro (and Kojima), how about we not or at least be very careful idolizing any creatives (or anyone)

That level of admiration isn't worth the potential disappointment
Taro has always looked more subdued and humble about his work than anybody else in the industry. I would imagine that's because of the fact that he hadn't had a success until recently, but his writing work on his games makes me think he is a lot more empathetic about outsider issues than most of his colleagues.
 

eyeball_kid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,645
I think the only thing that would cause Kojima to check himself is if one of his celebrity buddies called him out on it.
 

Zacmortar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,997
Good luck

I hope you're uniquely strict with who you deem a unique creator
Because a game series riffing on the sea of spy thriller movies before it is unique, okay dude

Theres a difference between idolization for the hell of it and idolization because theyre one of the few developers that sees me as a person
 

litebrite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,857
I don't believe there weren't any gay writers in game journalism at this point in time, I just don't know about them. That was the point of me saying I don't know my history, but you responded with something else.
Oh ok, I get what you're saying now. My point was even if there were it hadn't impacted or influenced mainstream's consciousnes to be even aware that this is bad, which is why most people that played it and/or reviewed it at the time didn't even notice it yet alone felt it was worth commenting on.
 

Deleted member 1656

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Taro has always looked more subdued and humble about his work than anybody else in the industry. I would imagine that's because of the fact that he hadn't had a success until recently, but his writing work on his games makes me think he is a lot more empathetic about outsider issues than most of his colleagues.
I believe you. And I'm distrustful of an industry that can be so very secretive. And being prepared for disappointment in the people in it and products from it is something that I believe has served me well.
 

Mesoian

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Oct 28, 2017
10,718
Almost parody levels of melodrama isn't "brilliant". They're good games, but they're not masterpieces.
I mean, in the space of games, they absolutely are. And even accepting that the vast majority of game story telling is terrible, the gameplay of those games are pretty much second to none.