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mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,805
The expense is coming from the size of the studio. You can't have a studio that size make Unravel 2.
no but you can have smaller teams inside the studios working on smaller projects.
At the end of the day, studio heads may think it's easier to justify a big tentpole project over 10 smaller sized projects.
A publisher the size of EA should provide a creative outlet for this kind of alternative however.
 

Quacktion

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,479
"if you want resources, show us how your game is going to make long-term revenue."

So they DID pretty much forced them to make this kind of game then.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
I mean, if the directive was simply to make a service game for continued revenue, they could have just made an updated standalone Mass Effect MP. The decision to bring in that revenue stream by making Anthem was likely entirely Bioware's. They could have just taken the MP stuff from ME:A and built upon in. Instead they decided to make a whole new game chasing the shlooter bandwagon and they were in way over their heads.
 

jay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,275
EA allows companies to autonomously dig their graves if they don't get on the revenue train one way or another.
 
Oct 26, 2017
12,548
UK
The tweets say EA didn't tell them to make Anthem but the tweet also says EA have made it clear they ain't interested in investing in a single player game.

So Bioware is all but forced to make a game like anthem.
 

Blizzcut

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
747
Then why did you do this to us Bioware!? You were the Chosen One! You were once a pillar of light amidst the darkness of remakes and BR but now...now you are a shell of your former selves...hollow and lifeless.
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
I'm sure the pressure is as subtle as he's making it out to be, but asking "Where's your Destiny?" or saying the studio needs to get on board with the corporate-wide GaaS initiative and figure out how to monetize their games past the initial point of sell is basically forcing them to make an online game. I mean, everyone knows what happens to EA studios that don't perform. Not that the people in charge of Bioware weren't interested in giving it a try, but I doubt there was zero pressure to do it.

Why does anyone care that EA is pressuring Bioware to generate revenue? Why does it matter that EA ends a studio? "Takes it out back and shoots them." EA is in the business of making games, so shooting a studio does not stop the fact that EA will make more games. The IP can be transferred, or is owned by EA, and can be given to any studio to make a game of. For me, the only reason to care about EA shooting a studio is the scattering of talent, of the personnel, of the culture that can exist at a studio. But its been 10 years since Bioware got brought by EA. Turnover in the industry is so high, most of the people who made the prior games probably dont even work there anymore.

Again, I have to repeat this question, why does it matter that EA says, "Generate revenue", thats what all gaming companies do. We are imparting a sense that Bioware is this entity that is tied to EA, another entity, that if freed would go back to making single-player games. Its a stupid notion. If the people there who lead the studio want to make single-player games, guess what, they aren't gonna buy out the company, they will leave and join other companies, or create their own company.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,805
I don't get the people saying EA is the biggest problem here.
If the studio is able to pitch something that is gonna be an evergreen that doesn't need outside monetization they get their cash the same way as if they pitch a new FIFA UT type of game.
Can't exactly fault EA for not wanting to throw cash at gigantic studios to make games that won't bring enough revenue to justify the expense.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
I couldn't care less about EA, I just find it hilarious that despite multiple devs telling reporters that they have complete control over their products/development process the same people suggest otherwise.

Devs don't have complete control though. Not at a company like EA. They either pitch something that will fulfill the demands of corporate or there are two outcomes. They don't get the funding and can go back to work on further pitches. Or they get the funding, the title does not perform to unrealistic expectations and they risk getting shut down. Which is actually quite EA's specialty. Sometimes a choice is not really a choice.

Btw i'm not saying this is exclusive to EA, or even videogames. I'm sure there are plenty of people in Hollywood who would love to make blockbusters that aren't fucking comic books as well.
 

Dr. Zoidberg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,227
Decapod 10
It is easy to blame the company over the game studio you love as everyone blames Activsion for Bungie and all the things they disliked in Destiny. At the end of the day it is easy to see that perhaps the issue really is Bioware and not EA.

The big company almost always gets the blame when projects like this don't turn out as people hope. Scalebound is another example where both parties said things just weren't coming together, but the assumption from most here is that Microsoft killed the project for no good reason. Sony's probably the only megacorp that doesn't automatically take the blame from the fans when these things happen.
 

Villein

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,982
It was prolly some genius at Bioware thinking he can impress the EA execs with his idea for a Destiny clone.
 

Landford

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,678
Dont ever forget that if Jason is actually correct, it was Bioware that was ok with Anthem scoring sixes and sevens because "Destiny did it too". They were already shooting for mediocre and even then they fucked everything up.

Also, from multiple reports of people that actually work on the EA umbrella of studios, the place seems to be one of the best places to work in the whole industry, with awesome hours and benefits and a really, really progressive culture. EA was even one of the first to push for same sex marriages having the same financial privileges as heterosexual married couples.
 

thediamondage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,265
I think people shit on EA and Activision for the wrong reasons. They aren't corporate suits who force devs to make last years hit game and stuff it with microtransactions. Instead, their problem is that they give zero useful guidance and direction. In theory EA and Activision should both be learning very useful things from their big and small studios and competitors and distilling it info useful info that can help all their companies. Mistakes learned from battlefront 2, what PUBG/Fortnite means for the industry, etc.

Instead both seem like clueless parents who just tell their kids "do whatever man, just be happy (aka make us lots of money)" and when their studios fail miserably they just wash their hands of them. That model works fine with you have studios like Respawn who have razor sharp focus and know what people want and just need a strong marketing arm to push their vision. It fails miserably when you have apparently mediocre companies like DICE and Bioware who can't make good games anymore.
 

Cousin From Boston

Prophet of Regret
Avenger
Nov 21, 2017
3,609
I never believed that EA was forcing Bioware to do anything they weren't already planning to do. It just looks more and more that Bioware was out of their depths on this one.
 

Cels

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,774
what's funny is in the future when a studio talks to EA about a game they're making EA will ask them "and where is your version of apex legends?"
 

Harlequin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,614
It feels like they could've done sth a lot more BioWare-ish and still had that whole "long-term player retention live service continuous revenue" BS in there. Like, I was really into Mass Effect and I liked Dragon Age but Anthem simply does not interest me in the slightest and I'm sure that many other BioWare fans feel the same way. But if they had done sth more akin to Assassin's Creed: Odyssey, I think they could've totally had their cake and eaten it, too. Kept their old fans happy and still have had all the live service BS. Then again, maybe some of the folks at BioWare were just sick of making RPGs, who knows.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
EA may not be telling their studios which games to make but they are also pretty clear on what games they don't want(traditional single player).
They want stuff they can heavily monetize.

The thing is, that can be made with single player as well. Ubisoft with Assassin's Creed Odyssey and Origins did it. If a pitch is made for games using this model, I can see probably see it happening more.
 

AntiMacro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,138
Alberta
"if you want resources, show us how your game is going to make long-term revenue."

So they DID pretty much forced them to make this kind of game then.
That's not what it means at all, unless you deliberately misquote it like that.

Let's say you pitch a game that the team really wants to make. You budget it at $30 million to make. It's single player, it'll take 30 hours to finish. There's no DLC/lootboxes/dances/whatever for extended or long-term revenue generation, but you think it'll sell over two million copies in the first three months based on some market research and maybe reach four million by the end of the first year. It gets greenlit, you're getting the $30 million to get it done.

Option two is that you pitch another game you want to make - budgeted at $30 million to make again. It's single player with a MP component that you really think is going to take off. SP is 15 hours, but that MP is going to give it legs and you've got plans for a year of expansions to the arenas - all free - as well as a series of paid content adds in the form of taunts/dances/skywriting/whatever the hell works for the game, and at the end of the year you want to drop the MP portion on stores as an ongoing free to play game. That long-term revenue potential gets you the $30 million plus you'll have additional resources as needed - bigger ad campaign, Ninja/Shroud/Tim the Tatman are going to be hired to play MP at launch, whatever it might be.

Additional resources for evergreen projects doesn't mean non-evergreen projects get nothing.
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,721
Too many mouth breather take "EA bad" seriously.

Developers and publishers work together and sometimes games that launch poorly are a result of either party or both.
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,288
They couldnt pitch anything that EA couldnt milk with a "long term revenue plan", so yea. Ya know, maybe making this game is how they managed to squeeze another Dragon Age from EA lol

Making money for a business is milking? It's like y'all don't understand the reason the industry didn't do this earlier was only because of technical limits.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,805
The big company almost always gets the blame when projects like this don't turn out as people hope. Scalebound is another example where both parties said things just weren't coming together, but the assumption from most here is that Microsoft killed the project for no good reason. Sony's probably the only megacorp that doesn't automatically take the blame from the fans when these things happen.
You could say Nintendo as well but they don't even get categorized as megacorp to most people....They also have their own set of values that is not just pure money driven as well.

Dont ever forget that if Jason is actually correct, it was Bioware that was ok with Anthem scoring sixes and sevens because "Destiny did it too". They were already shooting for mediocre and even then they fucked everything up.
Yes, Bioware just decided one morning that they really want to make 9/10 game and shot for mediocrity instead.
It's just that.
 

Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,605
This strikes me similarly to something like 'Treyarch were the ones who decided to sell Red Dot sights'. Like, yeah, it's their idea - but it's also one of the only ways they can fulfil their publisher's financial expectations.

Of course Bioware would have come up with the game pitch for Anthem, but I don't doubt it was one of the only ways they could fill the checklist of EA's spoken and unspoken expectations.
 
Last edited:

ckareset

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Feb 2, 2018
4,977
The thing is, that can be made with single player as well. Ubisoft with Assassin's Creed Odyssey and Origins did it. If a pitch is made for games using this model, I can see probably see it happening more.
People shit on ubisoft for it as well though.
 

Avitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,916
This strikes me similarly to something like 'Treyarch were the ones who decided to sell Red Dot sights'. Like, yeah, it's their idea - but it's also one of the only ways they can fulfil your publisher's financial expectations.

Of course Bioware would come up with the game pitch for Anthem, but I don't doubt it was one of the only ways they could fill the checklist of EA's spoken and unspoken expectations.

Exactly. I don't know where this weird narrative of "EA isn't to blame" is coming from. They set the goals, expectations, and manage the studios accordingly. It's not like BioWare was left completely alone, came up with Anthem, and EA never once checked in on the damn thing.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Are any of those made by EA-owned studios, though, or have they just entered into a publishing relationship? I thought the teams that made A Way Out, Fe and Unravel were not part of the company.

A Way Out, Fe and in this year Sea of Solitude are the projects for EA Originals. The games aren't owned by EA and all the money goes to the studio even though EA is publishing it.

This iniciative began after the success of Unravel which unlike what most people think, isn't part of EA Originals but what made it exist. Unravel is an IP owned by EA and is more of a common publishing model.
 

Quacktion

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,479
Making money for a business is milking? It's like y'all don't understand the reason the industry didn't do this earlier was only because of technical limits.
You can make money and not do this kind of shit tho. Having a strong brand is more important than short term boost from DLC's.
 

golem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,878
Yeah, I doubt EA was marching around telling studios exactly what to make but I'm also sure its understood within the corporation that to get a new AAA franchise greenlit at EA you had to meet certain criteria and align with larger corporate goals, such as a GaaS model, being streamer friendly, analytics driven and etc. In the end I'm not sure there is that much difference in what consumers receive as the end product.

The more pressing question is probably who decided it would be ok to release the game in such a state. I would guess that EA probably defined the release window and wasn't willing to push it back further
 

Springy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,213
A Way Out, Fe and in this year Sea of Solitude are the projects for EA Originals. The games aren't owned by EA and all the money goes to the studio even though EA is publishing it.

This iniciative began after the success of Unravel which unlike what most people think, isn't part of EA Originals but what made it exist. Unravel is an IP owned by EA and is more of a common publishing model.
Thanks for the info!
 

Quacktion

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,479
This strikes me similarly to something like 'Treyarch were the ones who decided to sell Red Dot sights'. Like, yeah, it's their idea - but it's also one of the only ways they can fulfil your publisher's financial expectations.

Of course Bioware would have come up with the game pitch for Anthem, but I don't doubt it was one of the only ways they could fill the checklist of EA's spoken and unspoken expectations.
Pretty much what I was (poorly) trying to get at.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Exactly. I don't know where this weird narrative of "EA isn't to blame" is coming from. They set the goals, expectations, and manage the studios accordingly. It's not like BioWare was left completely alone, came up with Anthem, and EA never once checked in on the damn thing.

About this, according to Jason's information, EA only wants a stream of revenue in the big budget games so MTX, lootboxes, DLC or whatever it is must be presented to reach those numbers. Anthem existing means that Bioware chose a MP but they could also make a game like Mass Effect with a single player and a MP, or a single player game with MTX on armors, costumes and whatsoever, or just general DLC. It's not like there's only one way of monetization or one option which is MP, there's SP and SP along MP as well, which I think this is the argument that is presented and that the Bioware pitch for Anthem and EA not obligating them makes sense.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,334
It should be noted, that Anthem was pitched and greenlit before long term revenue was as common a lucrative a goal as it is today.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
It would probably help if audiences actually wanted to go see those hypothetical non-comic-book blockbusters.

There's a whole conversation to be had about balancing creative freedom and the necessity for financing. If your goal is solely to make all the money without much care for creativity or imagination, then by all means just shit out another Marvel or Star Wars or Jurassic Park branded schlock. At least we're still a ways off from watching an ass for 90 minutes and we still get the occasional interesting movie out of it. But i will always applaud something like Blade Runner 2049, whether it flops or not. It's more valuable in my mind to create something truly unique and personal once in your life than spend an entire career oozing out mediocrity. But to be fair, blockbusters could be made for much less than they are now if more attention was given to acting talent and good scriptwriting than pretty bankable faces and empty VFX.
 

jschreier

Press Sneak Fuck
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,094
Dont ever forget that if Jason is actually correct, it was Bioware that was ok with Anthem scoring sixes and sevens because "Destiny did it too". They were already shooting for mediocre and even then they fucked everything up.

Also, from multiple reports of people that actually work on the EA umbrella of studios, the place seems to be one of the best places to work in the whole industry, with awesome hours and benefits and a really, really progressive culture. EA was even one of the first to push for same sex marriages having the same financial privileges as heterosexual married couples.
I wouldn't say they were shooting for mediocre - I'd say they adopted the "we can fix this after launch" mentality as a way to actually ship the game within this fiscal year, which was dictated by EA.
 

golem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,878
It should be noted, that Anthem was pitched and greenlit before long term revenue was as common a lucrative a goal as it is today.
I wouldnt be surprised if it was partially rebooted at some point to add more support for mtx but even as a GaaS game it currently seems like a failure at this point. There just doesnt seem to be much on the store worth buying.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
So EA didn't explicitly tell BioWare to make a game but suggested it strongly.
That's how people in positions of power operate.

We have a whole scandal here in Canada about the Prime MInister suggesting the Attorney General do something she didn't want to do.

This seems like splitting hairs. And you know, EA could structure incentives such that the executives and leaders at BioWare want to do something but the decision would not have been arrived at independently. And frankly we'll never know what really happened unless there's actual digging as to the timelines, discussions and processes that worked behind the scenes. And it will need to come from former employees.

The people who made those decisions are not going to come forward and admit they messed up.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,719
Yep, almost every time it's the devs who come up with whatever monetization model the game ends up using. The big studios demand that some form of it exists if they're gonna put millions into a project and then the actual implementation is mostly out of their hands.

Bioware wasn't a good fit for the culture of a studio like EA or Ubisoft, 1st party like Sony or MS would be the ideal cause they want prestige games. The path that CDPR went would have been another ideal outcome but they have the benefit of vastly lower costs cause of their country and if BW tried to stay independent they might have closed down by now. Bethesda is a 3rd party studio that lately seems to be more in line with what old BW was like.