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Wesley-Σ

Member
Oct 26, 2017
521
[This thread is being posted on behalf of x via the Adopt-A-User program. This topic is a little touchy, so I do want to express I am only a surrogate in this post.]

___________________________________________________________________________________________________


When ResetEra launched, and talk amongst users, mods and admins promised change: "A time to reset" as many declared, I had hope that the restrictive moderation that hindered discussion would be expunged. Sadly, however, these short few weeks have shown a regression to the community's old ways.


In order to foster a community that genuinely discusses issues in gaming and life in general, this board should provide a platform that welcomes dissenting thought, as long as it is respectful. If we disagree with users or a particular line of thought, our first instinct should not be to attack their character, nor should mods ban users if they don't like their opinion.


Here is a recent example of a user discussing the use of the N-Word. In his opinion, the N-word is nothing more than a word. I imagine he thinks the person's intent behind the word's use is the issue more than the word itself. While I don't fully agree with his opinion, if we're going to have a dialogue with people, or try to educate them on why we think their opinion is wrong, how is banning them going to help? In addition, what message is that going to send to the rest of the community? In my opinion, it sends a message that we have to think and behave a certain way in order to remain a member here. That's discouraging because I believe this has bred a groupthink mentality, one that is disingenuous.

i.imgur.com/LCcdfBj.jpg

LCcdfBj.jpg


Another issue is a certain someone that shall not be named, but used to work at IGN. It's understandable that many people here do not like him, but de-platforming an individual and any discussions relating to him is not the correct way to go about it, in my opinion. Again, this type of moderation is cultivating a hive-mind community.



There's an interesting thread I stumbled across on ResetEra, which cites a TED talk by Celeste Headlee. During this talk, she describes how we live in a society where people don't listen to each other, a society where we argue with people we disagree with instead of engaging in a dialogue, or worse, remove them from our lives. In order to have a dialogue with someone, you don't have to like him or her, or agree with what they say, you just have to listen. As Celeste states in her talk: "True listening requires a setting aside of oneself. And sometimes that means setting aside your personal opinion."


I believe this board has an opportunity to improve upon its predecessor and be respected amongst the gaming community. In order to that, we have to be willing to talk to one another despite our differences.


I hope this thread finds you well, and I hope what I had to say at least generates a discussion on this. If the community thinks my beliefs on this matter aren't appropriate, feel free to ban me because I would not want to be a part of a community that restricts free thought.
 
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nemoral

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,081
Fiddler's Green
I think if you want to discuss how racial slurs are only words, there are dozens of other forums to visit. This one seems to have correctly located the spirit of the last place, which involves an environment where minorities aren't told that their issues don't exist, and that racism and sexism aren't a real thing. I hope fervently it stays that way, and I wish people who didn't like it would simply go find some other forum, where they're happy to allow it.

I also think the moderation stance on Colin was entirely reasonable. This is a community, not the general public. We have community standards, and people who are unwilling to meet those standards need to find a different community. No one is owed a place here.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,617
If Colin actually makes a meaningful contribution to the industry I imagine mods would allow a thread on it.
He's kind of a terrible person and giving him a platform to promote his patreon brand isn't ideal.

Image doesn't work on my end either, btw. Might be uploaded to private?
 

Cranster

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,788
I think if you want to discuss how racial slurs are only words, there are dozens of other forums to visit. This one seems to have correctly located the spirit of the last place, which involves an environment where minorities aren't told that their issues don't exist, and that racism and sexism aren't a real thing. I hope fervently it stays that way, and I wish people who didn't like it would simply go find some other forum, where they're happy to allow it.
Yeah this right here!

EDIT:. as for this point...

There's an interesting thread I stumbled across on ResetEra, which cites a TED talk by Celeste Headlee. During this talk, she describes how we live in a society where people don't listen to each other, a society where we argue with people we disagree with instead of engaging in a dialogue, or worse, remove them from our lives. In order to have a dialogue with someone, you don't have to like him or her, or agree with what they say, you just have to listen. As Celeste states in her talk: "True listening requires a setting aside of oneself. And sometimes that means setting aside your personal opinion."
Not all discussions are matters of opinion. When it comes to Nazi's and white supremacists there is no opinion, there are only facts and those racist groups are on the wrong side of history and morality.
 
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Deleted member 2793

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,368
Closed communities have rules. Most of the time I spend here is discussing with other people, many times disagreeing with them. The whole "hivemind" thing is just feeling as a buzzword some people keep repeating to defend their "right" to say dumb stuff.
 

nemoral

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,081
Fiddler's Green
Groupthink isn't a thing. It wasn't on GAF it isn't here.
What people really mean by this is "they have standards." Contrary to the silly narrative, nearly every thread on the last place was full of argumentation. The argument of these types is that if you don't allow every argument, then you've shut down all dissent, which is just ridiculous. Not allowing posters to pretend social ills don't exist isn't crushing dissent, it's creating a space where people with more reasonable points of view can have a discussion without it constantly bogging down into "is this really even a problem, because I've never experienced it."
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,943
Disagree, anyone arguing that slurs are simply words are being disingenuous and cannot be speaking in good faith, which is key to maintaining civil discourse here. Perhaps there's a discussion for whether a ban is appropriate for that particular situation over a warning, but I'm confident the moderation staff can reach a positive stance.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
Talking about Colin Moriarty gives him attention and he makes money from attention. A dude who's so proud of his misogyny that he framed his tweet about it and sells it to patrons doesn't need our platform.

That post in the image is problematic not just for the N word stuff but the "SJWs are the real problem!!!!" mentality in the second half of the post as well.

I don't think we can say this is a good example of a hive mind and it's not a hill to die on.
 
Oct 25, 2017
981
Not touching the first thing with a 10 foot pole. But it's weird that topics on Colin are banned. Ive never watched his stuff or kinda funny but just blocking topics about someone who is relevant doesn't make sense.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
Not touching the first thing with a 10 foot pole. But it's weird that topics on Colin are banned. Ive never watched his stuff or kinda funny but just blocking topics about someone who is relevant doesn't make sense.

I haven't seen an official ban on his topics. But if they're irrelevant or not contributing anything important (like most of his hot takes) they'd probably get locked so yeah.
 

Skux

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,942
Eh, well if 90% of Colin discussion is "this guy sucks" then there's really no point talking about him on here.
 

sprsk

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,452
TLDR version of the OP:

"Why doesn't this board tolerate my attempts at normalizing hate? By banning my morally bankrupt brethren and their thinly veiled attempts to keep minorities down, aren't you the real bigots tho?"
 

Deleted member 4783

Oct 25, 2017
4,531
"The n word is just a word" is a fucked up way to say "fuck you" to black people.
So... would you kindly fuck off?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,165
I think this has less to do with people being a hivemind (which gives me the impression that the OP fancies himself the only free thinker in a sea of sheep) and more to do with this community having a userbase with little tolerance for hateful garbage. There is nothing wrong with that.

The argument that the N-word is just a word is the kind of rhetoric you see from a middle schooler who wants permission to say it because it's taboo. Whether you like it or not, the cultural implications and its connotations are currently inseparable from the word.
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,550
After a while, you have to ask yourself if trying to debate the cognitive dissonance and dishonest arguments about the nuances of the n-word yield anything productive. There were multiple eyebrow-raising points in the banned post. Like the reference to the disinformation campaign against Anita Sarkeesian; you don't have to agree with her, but her critiques are absurdly milquetoast and inoffensive for all the outrage they generate from people.

There's no way to debate someone with a warped view of reality using a completely different standard of what is considered "evidence". We might as well start discussing the merit of "Pizzagate" and whether 9/11 was an inside job or not.

Though I am curious what your opinion is on the OP you posted for someone else, surrogate OP.
 
OP
OP
Wesley-Σ

Wesley-Σ

Member
Oct 26, 2017
521
"The n word is just a word" is a fucked up way to say "fuck you" to black people.
So... would you kindly fuck off?
I think this has less to do with people being a hivemind (which gives me the impression that the OP fancies himself the only free thinker in a sea of sheep) and more to do with this community having a userbase with little tolerance for hateful garbage. There is nothing wrong with that.

The argument that the N-word is just a word is the kind of rhetoric you see from a middle schooler who wants permission to say it because it's taboo. Whether you like it or not, the cultural implications and its connotations are currently inseparable from the word.
The (real) OP mentioned he does not agree with the user in question's stance -- viewing the word as destructive.

From what I can gather, this is more about how the situation was handled -- not how we view the N-word on this site or how we should treat it.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,976
I am completely okay with that sort of stuff not being allowable here. This is our club. There are a billion places on the internet to express that opinion, this place doesn't need to be one of them frankly
 

never

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,837
I think if you want to discuss how racial slurs are only words, there are dozens of other forums to visit. This one seems to have correctly located the spirit of the last place, which involves an environment where minorities aren't told that their issues don't exist, and that racism and sexism aren't a real thing. I hope fervently it stays that way, and I wish people who didn't like it would simply go find some other forum, where they're happy to allow it.

I also hope it stays this way.
 

Conciliator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,131
Please spare us from this. You can go anywhere on the internet and find dudes whining and mincing words about 'why do people get mad when I use racial slurs.' Please let us have this place where we at least don't have to get derailed by that same dumb shit over and over.

EDIT: for the record I don't care if there are colin moriarty threads, I just think they're hilarious and bizarre
 
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rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,405
Phoenix
Here is a recent example of a user discussing the use of the N-Word. In his opinion, the N-word is nothing more than a word. I imagine he thinks the person's intent behind the word's use is the issue more than the word itself. While I don't fully agree with his opinion, if we're going to have a dialogue with people, or try to educate them on why we think their opinion is wrong, how is banning them going to help? In addition, what message is that going to send to the rest of the community? In my opinion, it sends a message that we have to think and behave a certain way in order to remain a member here. That's discouraging because I believe this has bred a groupthink mentality, one that is disingenuous.

Yeah this community doesn't need to allow every thought to be expressed just because of a perceived value in free speech.

I for one am glad that the people here are expected to behave a certain way, you know, decent, and not trying to handwave away hate.

And I've never heard thinking the N word is racist as group think. But ok.
 

Deleted member 9207

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,841
I really tried to side with the OP on the whole "we should discuss issues."

But that double whammy of "n-word is just a word" and "Sarkeesian is toxic" gives me PTSD of the gamer gater kind. And they've made up their minds.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,708
New Orleans
I feel like "groupthink" and "hive mind" were thrown around on the last board mostly by people who weren't happy that their opinion was in the minority.

That's not to say that the moderators couldn't be heavyhanded, fickle, petty, and entirely untransparent. But that hasn't crossed over to the new board from what I've seen.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,126
My humanity isn't a debate issue. There is a thousand boards and comment sections you can have fun with that.
 

DonShula

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,841
Problem seems to be that many people in this community have done their homework and formed their opinions based on that homework.

Along comes someone who hasn't done much reading or research on a topic and breaks out something like "maybe Colin has a point." The first couple times, the community posts their reasons for their viewpoint, everyone has an enlightening discussion, and all move on. But then it happens week after week, month after month, and the community gets tired of explaining things every damn time. You start seeing posts like "because he's a dirtbag" and "not this shit again." Then that is misconstrued as hive mind behavior.

I don't have a good solution. That just seems to be the way it plays out pretty often.
 

Deleted member 4783

Oct 25, 2017
4,531
The (real) OP mentioned he does not agree with the user in question's stance -- viewing the word as destructive.

From what I can gather, this is more about how the situation was handled -- not how we view the N-word on this site or how we should treat it.
I know, but still...
My message was also targeted to the banned user. Lol
 

Deleted member 6730

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,526
Saying "the n-word is just another word" is either defending the terrible racist constructs of society or being racist itself. Screw dealing with that that's how actual terrible people control the conversation and get their voice heard louder.
 

TeenageFBI

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,241
Probably not the best topic to pick for the Adopt-A-User program. There's a good amount of GG dogwhistling.
 

Fhtagn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,615
There are topics where the response can legitimately be "the thing you are saying has been argued to death elsewhere, and you should probably read up on it off-board and comeback later rather than trying to relitigate long-settled topics." That first one is clearly that. It's really not a productive topic for a message board.

Similarly, there are certain people who through their own actions have clearly drawn lines in the sand about who they are and what they stand for. Colin is a blowhard who's convinced he's right about everything at all times, blew up his own business over how right he thinks he is, and now that he realizes he can't make a living as a political commentator, he's crawling back to games journalism. Good luck there; he burned that bridge and brought his coworkers and friends nothing but hassle, they were always having to make excuses for him. Are we to be shocked that a lot of folks think the guy who alienated a lot of people over the years is still thought of as wack?

On the third point, yeah, people who have convinced themselves that the worst of all popular slurs is just another word aren't listening to what anyone else has to say about it. The failure of listening and empathy is not on the rest of us who are saying "oh no, please, you may not understand why you're wrong, but you are..." but on the person trying to reach a "logical" "rational" naive opinion of a word that clearly doesn't affect them in the way it affects so many.

People are rightly sick of having to rehash the same basic 101 arguments over and over again, when all they want is their basic humanity acknowledged.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
I will never understand some white people's insistence of just NEEDING to find justification & acceptance to them using the n-word. Just fucking don't. There is really no instances where you absolutely need to say the word and going through huge diatribes of "how it's just a word and why can't we all just get along and call each other niggers" and then getting insulted when people push back is just pathetic.


And unfortunately talking rarely works with these people. I recently had a facebook argument with someone who insisted on calling homosexuality a disorder & transgender people sick and tripping & contradicting on his OWN arguments at every turn, yet no matter what kind of proof & current knowledge of both subjects I linked to him, no matter the contradictions I pointed out in his messages, he kept on insisting on holding onto his viewpoints, basically ending the argument with a "agree to disagree"

There's just no talking to people who still hold on to backwards ass views on subjects like racism, homosexuality, equality etc. It's 2017. You have the vast Internet & lots of proven sources of information on such topics that can enlighten anyone interested in real discourse.
 

mac

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,308
[This thread is being posted on behalf of via the Adopt-A-User program. This topic is a little touchy, so I do want to express I am only a surrogate in this post.]

There's an interesting thread I stumbled across on ResetEra, which cites a TED talk by Celeste Headlee. During this talk, she describes how we live in a society where people don't listen to each other, a society where we argue with people we disagree with instead of engaging in a dialogue, or worse, remove them from our lives. In order to have a dialogue with someone, you don't have to like him or her, or agree with what they say, you just have to listen. As Celeste states in her talk: "True listening requires a setting aside of oneself. And sometimes that means setting aside your personal opinion."

This thread https://www.resetera.com/threads/adopt-a-user-program-constructive-criticism-toward-resetera.4193/

i agree. There is a fear of exchange going on.
 
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Seductivpancakes

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,790
Brooklyn
I think if you want to discuss how racial slurs are only words, there are dozens of other forums to visit. This one seems to have correctly located the spirit of the last place, which involves an environment where minorities aren't told that their issues don't exist, and that racism and sexism aren't a real thing. I hope fervently it stays that way, and I wish people who didn't like it would simply go find some other forum, where they're happy to allow it.
This.

I don't care if it's someone's opinion, I think it's pretty disgusting people dismiss racial issues of minorities.

Anyone who thinks it's a valid opinion or stance to have can go to some other forum that cater to racist trash.
 

HStallion

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
62,262
There are a lot of trash tier talking points that are brought up time and time again for a disingenuous "discussion" that amounts to nothing more than a prettied up version of stirring the pot. They're shot down time and time again like the next time the discussion will be any more earnest and fruitful. No thanks.
 

Saturday

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,376
Disagree, anyone arguing that slurs are simply words are being disingenuous and cannot be speaking in good faith, which is key to maintaining civil discourse here. Perhaps there's a discussion for whether a ban is appropriate for that particular situation over a warning, but I'm confident the moderation staff can reach a positive stance.

Succinctly worded. If that poster had gone on, that entire thread would have gone down in flames. I'm not sure an outright ban would have been needed, but at the very least strong mod presence would have been needed (and even then chances are people would have debated that post very strongly. And by that I mean poured on the hate. And then get the topic locked.)

That second bit is, well, unavoidable. I'm not also sure what your complaint is. If it's for a community to stop hating something, you're just asking for people to stop hating X. That's just people (and completely fine if not done in excess.) You're also asking people to engage conversation in a completely neutral manner, which again is flawed because the internet naturally being the wild west, people will take advantage of neutrality to immediately start being outspoken.

But hey, what with the state of the internet nowadays, I don't blame you OP. I can tell you that gauging just general discussion from all topics, people actually post "I don't respect your opinion, but I recognize your right to say it" and mods going "Ok, my decision was a bit much, I'll change it." Which is.. kinda hilarious to read on a forum, but that's nice. That's good. That indicates a decent will for decent talk moving forwards.
 

Pacote

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,238
São Paulo
Out of curiosity, if a Black user uses the N word would that be Ok?

I know that out of the internet is ok but dont have a clue on whatever this was ok or not on the other place...
 

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
No people who use the word nigger as an insult arent the real baddies its that evil Anita!

I don't see how you can't see how that leads to some pretty toxic rhetoric

I don't think holding the opinion that PDP isn't a racist is bannable, or even that accidentally using it doesn't automatically make you a racist. When you go on a rant about SJWs and say the n-word is cool is when there really isn't a discussion to be had.

Also whether people like it or not the N-word is not just another word just factually. You can't ignore the history because you don't care.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,126
I would take the criticism more serious if not for the fact every time it happens it's pretty much a form letter with alt right code words and bullet points
 

Cranster

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,788
The irony of him using Anita Sarkeesian as a talking point is just outright laughable aswell. Do I think she takes her criticisms a bit to far at times? Of course. But the fact of the matter is that Gamer Gate indirectly made her a huge influential figure in the industry by proving her point. If idiots just left her, Zoe Quinn and others alone we wouldn't really be having that discussion so often.

But sexist assholes have to sexist assholes!
 
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