Don't search up Transformers: Kiss Players
Seriously. Don't. Just. Don't.
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Adults getting angry about new cartoons being aimed at kids
- Thread starter Cybersai
- Start date
Don't search up Transformers: Kiss Players
Seriously. Don't. Just. Don't.
My argument to that would be that I feel like a lot of the cartoons that I watched when I was a kid, in the late '90s and early '00s were able to be enjoyed by both children and adults, and not only that but you also had shows that like Samurai Jack, Avatar, Justice League etc. that gave kids a bit more credit, and again, could also be enjoyed by adults. So with that in mind I don't see the problem with people who are older, probably still watch those previously mentioned shows and enjoy them, having a problem with current shows not scratching that same itch.
For me I'm kind of bummed out at the lack of action based shows today. It seems like networks have decided that it's a lot better to just pump out low effort comedies or live action shows than trying to put in any effort to make a new Batman TAS, Avatar, or Samurai Jack. I'll also say that I don't really like the art styles of a lot of shows these days, they all look soft and same-y to me.
For me I'm kind of bummed out at the lack of action based shows today. It seems like networks have decided that it's a lot better to just pump out low effort comedies or live action shows than trying to put in any effort to make a new Batman TAS, Avatar, or Samurai Jack. I'll also say that I don't really like the art styles of a lot of shows these days, they all look soft and same-y to me.
I know about Kiss Players.
It's harmless, inoffensive drivel. It's also not widely available to the public. It's like bringing up the CDi Zelda games.
Too bad the OP didn't actually mention which shows he was talking about, or better yet, discuss it in the thread where it happened. But anyways, it sounds like he might be talking about beloved cartoon series that had a reboot which totally changed the entire show for no reason. My argument is, then they should have made a new cartoon series, not named it after the old one. The only purpose for rebooting an old franchise is to bring the original audience back, because modern kids wouldn't watch it because of that old name. If you then decide to make it a series the original audience would hate or not understand, then why bring back that series in the first place?
It's funny to me because today, way more animation is aimed at an all-age audience than stuff from the 80s and early 90s. Shows like Avatar, Adventure Time, Stephen Universe, or Samurai Jack (even before season 5) - this stuff is all designed to be inclusive of kids and adults and additionally not treat children as stupid. There's a better reason for adults to be full-fledged fans of more recent animation, than there is of stuff from the 80s outside of aesthetic nostalgia for the 80s.
By comparison various 80s properties were toy commercials for kids full stop. That doesn't mean adults can't watch the stuff and enjoy it, but in most cases there wasn't anything too deep there for an adult to latch onto. The modern nerd obsession over 80s and 90s cartoons, ehh... it smells of people who are trying way too hard to create a cohesive and meaningful culture of which they are the gatekeepers.
By comparison various 80s properties were toy commercials for kids full stop. That doesn't mean adults can't watch the stuff and enjoy it, but in most cases there wasn't anything too deep there for an adult to latch onto. The modern nerd obsession over 80s and 90s cartoons, ehh... it smells of people who are trying way too hard to create a cohesive and meaningful culture of which they are the gatekeepers.
Well there is no reason why Marvel superhero shows need to be so kid oriented other than to sell toys, reminds me of 80s cartoons whose sole purpose was to sell crap. Look at the pre-Disney Marvel MCU cartoons and many could be enjoyed by both adult and kids like Spectacular Spider-man, Avenger's Earth Mightiest Heroes, various X-men cartoons. The current iteration are just painful to watch as an adult, I don't have kids but two of my friends who do wont watch any of the Marvel cartoons with their kids because they are so bad, but overall enjoy watching shows with their kids like Voltron, Stephen Universe, some of the Transformers shows, Star Wars Clone Wars and Rebels, etc.
Creator driven animation isn't getting the support it needs from Nick and CN anymore. Disney essentially dropped all cda with the end of Gravity Falls.
My only problem is that sometimes new cartoon shows tend to look samey, shallow humor, no action, cheap artsyle etc. Like comparing New TEEN TITANS to old (wich also had humor).they feel, 'dumbed down' compared to other cartoons in the 90s.
However, i don't watch them all or care enough to complain thats just the impression i get
However, i don't watch them all or care enough to complain thats just the impression i get
Yep. As far as reboots of classic shows go, Duck Tales is second to none. They kept what works while updating the show for modern times and it's fantastic.
ehhh this is a touchy subject. Some of these new cartoons coming out today are dumbed down to the point of being insulting to anyone with a functioning brains. Its like these show runners think all kids like in cartoons are screaming, farts, poop jokes, and ugly faces. This might make me sound like a 90 yr old man but "back in my days" popular shows were a bit more sophisticated but they still kept the poop jokes, farts, weird faces and gross out humor. but to a lesser degree.
I'd suggest actually going back and rewatching Teen Titans, like many action cartoons they take a ton of shortcuts on top of the framerate not being very smooth at all.
TTG's creators are hella aware of the limitations of 2d puppet animation. And they do a good job of working around those limitations with each scene having so much energy in it, (helps that the cast is so goddamn into it). Like, there's an insane amount of art assets for the show compared to similar kid shows that use that same style. And ofc it can't be understated how good the camera work is.
Also helps that everything in the show looks so clean. It's absolutely not as fluid as traditional animation but they're really good at working around their limitations and keeping things visually interesting.
See above.
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Well personally i'm not obsessing over shit and there's nothing mythical about having an aesthetic preference.
The one thing I can see in regards to the frustration behind kid-tailored reboots (and keep in mind this does NOT in any way condone the horrendous behavior these idiots display towards the creators, animators, actors, and anyone that they think is associated with said reboots) is that there is admiteddly a lack of franchise-specific media tailor made for the adult crowd.
Every thing is made for both kids and also in a decidedly lower budget. Something like Batman: The Animated Series would absolutely not exist these days. It's frankly insane that it existed back then: multiple animation studios working on film cels, an orchestral soundtrack, top tier voice work, and mature-written stories that just barely skirtted the lines to keep them "kid friendly". The series would be an animated film at best these days....and even then, the latest DC animated movies are severely lacking in regards to animation budget despite allowing more PG-13 material.
Anime aside, we don't have anything that is specifically made for adults in regards to animation. Castlevania on Netflix is the only recent outlier, and frankly it's a miracle that exists at all.
So yeah, it sucks that we can't get, say, a big budget PG-13 Thundercats series, but it simply doesn't make financial sense to do so. The reason tne kids are getting all the stuff is because that's where the money is.
Every thing is made for both kids and also in a decidedly lower budget. Something like Batman: The Animated Series would absolutely not exist these days. It's frankly insane that it existed back then: multiple animation studios working on film cels, an orchestral soundtrack, top tier voice work, and mature-written stories that just barely skirtted the lines to keep them "kid friendly". The series would be an animated film at best these days....and even then, the latest DC animated movies are severely lacking in regards to animation budget despite allowing more PG-13 material.
Anime aside, we don't have anything that is specifically made for adults in regards to animation. Castlevania on Netflix is the only recent outlier, and frankly it's a miracle that exists at all.
So yeah, it sucks that we can't get, say, a big budget PG-13 Thundercats series, but it simply doesn't make financial sense to do so. The reason tne kids are getting all the stuff is because that's where the money is.
This sort of begs the question of why even remake cartoons if kids watching them aren't even old enough to know the original? It would seem like remakes in general are done to provoke nostalgia and in the case of cartoons, at the very least, even if they aren't making them FOR an adult audience, they are making them for the children of adults who grew up with the cartoons and want to share something with their kids they loved as a child. It may not be quite the same as nerds who will rage on message boards about changes or a cartoon, but those adults will have certain expectations about how they expect it to be and how they remember it, and if it's wildly different, especially if suddenly it's trying to be edgy or something unfamiliar, it will make parents upset because it's no longer a show they know and can trust to be what they remember it to be.
Besides the fact that these corporations have licenses they want to cynically milk, along with merchandising, what is the purpose of trying to recapture a new generation of fans with a property that might not even be relevant to them. I liked Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny growing up, but unless I'm watching old cartoons my parents may or may not have even been familiar with, watching new versions of those characters, or any similar cartoons, usually aren't even quite the same thing and sometimes they get changed so much in an attempt to find a new audience, they don't appeal to anyone, so what is the point?
Batman is kind of different because he's constantly being reinvented in stories spanning decades, so having a superhero with an archetype that they sort of have to revolve a familiar, unchanging character around, you can bet that things won't change much from version to version. On the other hand, if you have a character relegated to a show that comes out ever decade or longer and you have to really reinvent it to even make it relevant and appealing again, it's possible that a lot of traits will be changed you can might alienate fans who watched something for some of those particular traits you abandoned. That's the price you pay for cynically going back to the same well of established IPs; you want to lean on a recognizable IP, you'll have to contend with the people that actually remember it in the first place.
I get the idea of questioning the violence in kids cartoons, but the examples you use are sort of like the bullshit sort of half-measures they used to they can appease the suburban moms while keeping in violence before there was really ratings. Like having robots that get torn apart in fights since they aren't living or shooting laser guns instead of real guns. I get that it's used to place an extra layer of fantasy in there rather than having real life analogs in content for minors, and I agree that robots and lasers are better than humans and real guns, but at some point, violence is violence, and probably shouldn't be inundating very young children.
At the same time, most of the cartoons that this criticism would apply to are aimed at older children and there are ratings to let parents know that all cartoons aren't created equal. There is no "blood splattered across the screen" but I don't really think there was this supposed period where cartoons were less violent once upon a time (just look at old Looney Tunes for example). Presumably, having more content and ratings means that there is more variety of cartoons, sometimes more violent stuff, and it's on the parents to pay attention to what there kids are watching.
Also, what's up with the finger wagging at adults who get angry about cartoons not being a certain way while also preaching that cartoons should have violence and innuendo? I think you miss the irony there. Cartoons aren't made by kids for kids, but made by adults, from the perspective of adults, for kids, just like whatever you assume is okay or not okay and what a kid likes in their cartoons.
And there is also where they say fuck it and change the style completely for an episode because why not
or any time DanHipp takes control of the art direction like in the RPG episode or the tales by the fire one
I'll never understand getting mad at a cartoon not appealing to you. Just don't watch it if that's the case.
The only thing I want is more stuff like Voltron and Castlevania where humor isn't the main focus.
The only thing I want is more stuff like Voltron and Castlevania where humor isn't the main focus.
The last time (and first time) I saw Teen Titans in earnest was about 2 years ago, so i know pretty well what it looks like. Good, not fantastic, but a lot better than Go. Thanks for the gifs, but I really don't thhink they're very impressive.I'd suggest actually going back and rewatching Teen Titans, like many action cartoons they take a ton of shortcuts on top of the framerate not being very smooth at all.
TTG's creators are hella aware of the limitations of 2d puppet animation. And they do a good job of working around those limitations with each scene having so much energy in it, (helps that the cast is so goddamn into it). Like, there's an insane amount of art assets for the show compared to similar kid shows that use that same style. And ofc it can't be understated how good the camera work is.
Also helps that everything in the show looks so clean. It's absolutely not as fluid as traditional animation but they're really good at working around their limitations and keeping things visually interesting.
Especially compared to some of the better stuff from the original.
Stuff like this:
Granted, scenes like that were rare enough, and even then not too amazing, but it sure as heck demolishes whatever Go put out.
It's always come off a little strange to me, but then, I'm a grown man who watches MLP:FiM on a regular basis and bitches about the bad episodes. I suppose after five pretty good seasons, I have an expectation for quality, but someone recently pointed out that most seasons have a pretty big scattering of mediocre episodes, and yeah, it's just a dumb thing to be angry about.
Cartoons are a great way to escape the daily grind, but getting worked up over them defeats that purpose. If an episode is great, awesome! If not, well, there's a new one next week.
As to animation, well, I haven't watched Steven's Universe yet because I don't like the character designs. I find them kinda ugly, and I just don't know if I can get into it. Which sucks because by all accounts it's a fantastic show.
Cartoons are a great way to escape the daily grind, but getting worked up over them defeats that purpose. If an episode is great, awesome! If not, well, there's a new one next week.
As to animation, well, I haven't watched Steven's Universe yet because I don't like the character designs. I find them kinda ugly, and I just don't know if I can get into it. Which sucks because by all accounts it's a fantastic show.
Keep in mind that lower budget doesn't always equal worse show. Duckales is a fantastic reboot that knows how to write for both kids and adults to appreciate.
But production-wise, the original series clearly had more money spent. The first few episodes are almost Disney film quality, while the new stuff is decidedly flash-based and made with a budget in mind.
But it also gets around that (the same way other shows like Steven Universe do) by putting more focus on characterization rather than adventure. Webby is my favorite character in the new series. I'm pretty sure the original Webigail had zero fans and most people probably forgot she existed.
But production-wise, the original series clearly had more money spent. The first few episodes are almost Disney film quality, while the new stuff is decidedly flash-based and made with a budget in mind.
But it also gets around that (the same way other shows like Steven Universe do) by putting more focus on characterization rather than adventure. Webby is my favorite character in the new series. I'm pretty sure the original Webigail had zero fans and most people probably forgot she existed.
As someone who also put off Steven Universe on account of not liking the designs...they do grow on you.
Except Smoky Quartz. That is a trash-tier design that thankfully has only shown up a couple of times.
I was watching with a housemate and he mentioned that till she was transformed into a doll, he was SURE she was a new charater
I have a serious problem with most male MLP fandom because they usualy go the "it has deep stuff! it is made with adults in mind" in a kinda "it was made for me nor for little girls" way that it even goes against what the show is about =P
Other than episode 100 which has fun with a lot of fan theories and memes, that's absolute bullshit. It's a kid's cartoon but with halfway decent writing and the occasional nod to the fandom via Derpy Hooves.
I've heard that, too. I should give it a chance, but I don't have cable and I'm not sure where I'd stream it. There's no Crunchyroll for SU :P
Exactly, Go is fantastic.
I'd definitely recommend watching Go because good lord the characters have way more life in Go.The scene direction in general just has way more personality. Like TT wasn't bad. But Go will age a lot better.
Cartoons were always aimed at kids. That's not the problem. The issue is the downgrade in quality. The animation from 15+ years ago is better than alot of stuff we see today. It's like they treat today's kids with contempt.
I always hated it when people would defend the show by saying that is has pop-culture references that would go over the heads of children.
Well yeah, like 95% of cartoons have those. It's the natural by-product of being made by adults.
Computer-aided animation is cheaper than traditional animation, and I doubt there's any evidence that the target market prefers one over the other. Studios aren't going to throw money away chasing a more expensive option without a good reason.
And there's still plenty of beautifully animated shows that avoid the flash-cartoon look. I've been rewatching Gravity Falls, and it's a knockout.
I've said this in another topic, but every TV adaptation of TMNT has been ace so far. I can't believe how consistent in quality they are despite the completely different styles. I'm assuming the new one will continue to be as good as the preview episodes I saw.
TTG is too inconsistent for me to jump on the wagon but I don't hate it.
TTG is too inconsistent for me to jump on the wagon but I don't hate it.
OP
OP
I find it weird people are bringing up Avatar or Teen Titans 2003 like they're "modern" cartoons....you guys do realize those shows came out in 2005 and 2003 respectively, right? They're like 15+ years old now, I don't think the early 2000's is modern anymore.
In the last couple of weeks I've been enjoying Final Space and Disenchantment. I'd say that stuff is on the up, if anything.
With streaming services funding their own shows we ARE at a time where we're getting more adult oriented shows, thing is, very few of them are interested in making you feel like a kid who wants to go out and buy action figures, (i.e feature melee fight scenes), because they're more focused on overtly talk about adult subject matter like alcoholism and depression.
Actually no, it isn't. But hey if you wrongly want to think that way it's alright.
OP, you think the shows in question can't legitimately be trash? That these shows being aimed at younger audiences somehow means they will always be approved by them? Give some credit to kids, they're smart enough to know whether something is of lower quality when compared to older versions of shows. And they have more access to quality content than any of us did. Kids back in the day didnt have many options and even they were able to come to the conclusion that this was crap compared to the original:
I love cartoons. I enjoy the full spectrum(even the toddler stuff like bubble guppies <3).
Steven Universe Side-Note:
For those who haven't watched Steven universe yet because of bad character design--I highly recommend that you do. The writing and nuances in that show are a trip. These characters WILL grow on you--and I think that's the point because they all have very different and deep personalities(which is a focus of show because of fusions and the theme Rose believed in). The character designs repulsed me too, but now I absolutely love Garnet and Peridot.
Steven Universe is that saturday cartoon you took seriously when you were a kid.
/End side note.
What I love about cartoons is that they come in all kinds of flavours, with so much creative potential being an animation, whether you have a short attention span, you crave a story, you want to be amused and awed, creeped out or spooked. You'll find it in cartoons.
People will complain when they see violent cartoon "geared to kids". At blood and sexual themes it obviously wouldn't be, because--and maybe this might shock some people, there are cartoons that are made for adults.
If you see the TMNT start dividing up their adversaries like a cheese pizza, not a show for kids--and it isn't geared to kids because of that. Therefore kids should not watch it.
On the other hand they may have(sometimes in parrallel) a show where the TMNT solve their problems with witty ways of using their environment and bumping baddies on the head with the hilt of their weapons--it's a kids show. To me that dynamic is perfectly fine.
The point is, at some point parents need to draw lines. It's always been like that and it will continue to go on as such. No one stopped me from watching Duckman as a kid, and that's a cultural problem we have to deal with. Your child may love the flash from Justice League Action, but that doesn't mean you're letting them sit down and watch The Flashpoint Paradox.
In conclusion what is "geared to kids" should be defined by the cartoon's content alone, not because it was once something that was kid friendly in the past--or even presently(in parallel).
Steven Universe Side-Note:
For those who haven't watched Steven universe yet because of bad character design--I highly recommend that you do. The writing and nuances in that show are a trip. These characters WILL grow on you--and I think that's the point because they all have very different and deep personalities(which is a focus of show because of fusions and the theme Rose believed in). The character designs repulsed me too, but now I absolutely love Garnet and Peridot.
Steven Universe is that saturday cartoon you took seriously when you were a kid.
/End side note.
What I love about cartoons is that they come in all kinds of flavours, with so much creative potential being an animation, whether you have a short attention span, you crave a story, you want to be amused and awed, creeped out or spooked. You'll find it in cartoons.
People will complain when they see violent cartoon "geared to kids". At blood and sexual themes it obviously wouldn't be, because--and maybe this might shock some people, there are cartoons that are made for adults.
If you see the TMNT start dividing up their adversaries like a cheese pizza, not a show for kids--and it isn't geared to kids because of that. Therefore kids should not watch it.
On the other hand they may have(sometimes in parrallel) a show where the TMNT solve their problems with witty ways of using their environment and bumping baddies on the head with the hilt of their weapons--it's a kids show. To me that dynamic is perfectly fine.
The point is, at some point parents need to draw lines. It's always been like that and it will continue to go on as such. No one stopped me from watching Duckman as a kid, and that's a cultural problem we have to deal with. Your child may love the flash from Justice League Action, but that doesn't mean you're letting them sit down and watch The Flashpoint Paradox.
In conclusion what is "geared to kids" should be defined by the cartoon's content alone, not because it was once something that was kid friendly in the past--or even presently(in parallel).
Because maybe the art style seems like everything else aimed at kids and the storytelling is "I'm a Thundercat but I'm a furry and I don't shoot lighting? Whadda Blort! xD so random" type humor (akin to maybe teen titans go?) but hey, people complain about everything anyways. Let them eat, er... watch cartoons.
Imagine having a parent that bitches about what you like at that young of an age.
Because Internet.
The effect of echo chamber is that your thoughts and opinions are reinforced and amplified as you surround by people with your own mindset, instead of interacting with people with different ideas. Having easy access to these echo chamber, their safe space, also mean they're less likely to grow past it.
I have no doubt people in the past also held the "mine is better" idea, I mean, "young 'uns these days" is a common joke almost everyone make around the world. But there not being an echo chamber to reinforce their idea, and there not being an easy outlet to voice their anger, many either move past this stage or just resort to quietly vocalising it in their offline circle, out of sight, peace of mind.
The effect of echo chamber is that your thoughts and opinions are reinforced and amplified as you surround by people with your own mindset, instead of interacting with people with different ideas. Having easy access to these echo chamber, their safe space, also mean they're less likely to grow past it.
I have no doubt people in the past also held the "mine is better" idea, I mean, "young 'uns these days" is a common joke almost everyone make around the world. But there not being an echo chamber to reinforce their idea, and there not being an easy outlet to voice their anger, many either move past this stage or just resort to quietly vocalising it in their offline circle, out of sight, peace of mind.
I wasn't really talking about the type of animation, just the quality of it overall. Many of the popular cartoons of the past were based on comics, and they attempted to achieve a similar look that was faithful to how those comics were drawn at the time. Batman, TMNT, Justice League, X-Men, etc. Just the art alone in today's versions of older cartoon series, feel like what you would get if you told grade-school children to draw their interpretation of those characters. If you want to do something that looks like that but it's original, like the Power Puff Girls then I have no problem with that, but to me stuff like Ninja Turtles should not look its emulating Power Puff Girls' art.
It's fucking embarrassing, and has to stop. I cringe whenever someone my age or close to it goes blue in the face trying to rationalize why they should be the target audience of reboots or remakes of kids shows from their childhood.
Funny how lots of people in the thread are agreeing with the OP and then saying '...but IMO everything used to be better.'
Completely agree with the OP - fine you don't like the art style, but taking to the internet and spending time ranting about kids' cartoons as an adult is a pretty tragic comment on your life and priorities.
You're slagging off a cartoon aimed at kids 4 years and under.
Speaking of Canadian animation, I can't stand Paw Patrol (especially the UK VA) but my 4 year old son loves it. I'll take his opinion on the show over mine.
Completely agree with the OP - fine you don't like the art style, but taking to the internet and spending time ranting about kids' cartoons as an adult is a pretty tragic comment on your life and priorities.
You're slagging off a cartoon aimed at kids 4 years and under.
Speaking of Canadian animation, I can't stand Paw Patrol (especially the UK VA) but my 4 year old son loves it. I'll take his opinion on the show over mine.