After NPD, Media Create numbers will no longer be public ... where is the gaming press ?

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,458
Through a notice on their website, Media Create confirmed that they'll no longer share sales numbers (hardware and software) to the public.
Media Create has been going on since 1994, 25 years ago, and has been providing us with reliable and exhaustive data on the Japanese market.
It is also a small company (11 people), which cannot resist to the pressure put by its stakeholders (publishers for example).

There is a story here and yet I fail to see any big media reporting it. Nada. Rien. Niente.

Isn't it the role of the press to prevent such things ? If a publisher is pushing for keeping data from us, isn't it the role of the gaming press to point the finger ?

We live in socially connected world, bad PR can have disastrous consequences, the press has a real leverage there but they don't care.

During these past few months, a lot of industry problems have been raised, crunch, social protection, THQ Nordic debacle, and people like Imran or jschreier and also Waypoint have been calling out these issues.
While the movie industry is getting detailed daily numbers on almost every country, we are continually losing the scraps that we had (US numbers, Media Create numbers, seemingly Spanish numbers now too via Hobby Consolas).

It might be mere numbers, but it is our numbers, ours since 1994. If a publisher is taking them out from us, we should know why and who's behind it.

MOD EDIT: removed profanity from thread title
 
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FluxWaveZ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,140
Generally, it feels like gaming press like to talk/speculate about how a game supposedly sold, but don't care about having the actual numbers
 

EarthPainting

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,214
Town adjacent to Silent Hill
At least we're lucky Famitsu's core business isn't tracking and publishing numbers. There's less risk of them following Media Create's example as a result.

Generally, it feels like gaming press like to talk/speculate about how a game supposedly sold, but don't care about having the actual numbers
Never really thought about this, but you might actually be right.
 

Nanashrew

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,569
It removes what little insight on the business side of games people get, and limits it to those in higher power.
 
OP
OP
Lelouch0612

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,458
Generally, it feels like gaming press like to talk/speculate about how a game supposedly sold, but don't care about having the actual numbers
It doesn't really bother that they have no expert knowledge on the matter.

What is bothering me is that they don't get that trackers being silenced by other stakeholders is a big issue.
 

Nemesis162

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,224
Brazil
The gaming press don't care about sales data like that. Hell, they don't even report media create numbers and uk numbers in the majority of the cases or numbers from financial results. It's why here is so much more interesting.
 

Arynio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
141
Gaming press is generally terrible. Treating rumours as leaks is what they do for a living.
 

Rodjer

Member
Jan 28, 2018
4,300
Only forum users care about sales data, press and mainstream audience don't care.
 

Zedark

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,353
The Netherlands
I subscribe to the OP: there is plenty of really good investigative journalism, but looking into matters that surround seems weirdly lacking. It would be great if someone could find out why sales numbers keep disappearing, specifically what forces are behind those changes. The base reasons are clear - publishers want full control of the sales narrative - but why is the gamig industry pushing so hard for this while the film industry does not seem to be doing that?
 

Abriael

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,599
Milano - Italy
Through a notice on their website, Media Create confirmed that they'll no longer share sales numbers (hardware and software) to the public.
Media Create has been going on since 1994, 25 years ago, and has been providing us with reliable and exhaustive data on the Japanese market.
It is also a small company (11 people), which cannot resist to the pressure put by its stakeholders (publishers for example).

There is a story here and yet I fail to see any big media reporting it. Nada. Rien. Niente.

Isn't it the role of the press to prevent such things ? If a publisher is pushing for keeping data from us, isn't it the role of the gaming press to point the finger ?

We live in socially connected world, bad PR can have disastrous consequences, the press has a real leverage there but they don't care.

During these past few months, a lot of industry problems have been raised, crunch, social protection, THQ Nordic debacle, and people like Imran or jschreier and also Waypoint have been calling out these issues.
While the movie industry is getting detailed daily numbers on almost every country, we are continually losing the scraps that we had (US numbers, Media Create numbers, seemingly Spanish numbers now too via Hobby Consolas).

It might be mere numbers, but it is our numbers, ours since 1994. If a publisher is taking them out from us, we should know why and who's behind it.
Goodness gracious, the entitlement.

1: No. They're not your numbers or our numbers. They're Media Create's numbers.
2: It isn't publishers pushing not to publish them publicly, but Media Create itself. They're a company, and they want to make money with their work.
3: The numbers won't be publicly available via Media Create on Friday. This doesn't mean that publications like 4Gamer won't pay for them to publish them.
4: Even if Media Create numbers become completely unavailable, There are still Famitsu's numbers, which are nearly equivalent.
5: The gaming press' role isn't to bitch at a company that wants to sell its work instead of giving it away for free.

Again. They're not your or our numbers. They belong to Media Create.
 

Pillock

Member
Dec 29, 2017
780
Most of the gaming press are little more than bloggers offering opinion on games. They are not journalists.
 

BassForever

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,060
CT
I feel in an era of ballooning budgets and microtransactions having an exact number of copies sold for a lot of games doesn’t tell us much of anything. I wish we still got numbers, but considering how people read WAAAAAY too much into them and spread narratives about how good/bad something did maybe it’s for the best.
 

test_account

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,496
It doesn't really bother that they have no expert knowledge on the matter.

What is bothering me is that they don't get that trackers being silenced by other stakeholders is a big issue.
Are there any proof that this is what happened? Couldnt it be a decision that the trackers made themself in an attempt to sell more subscriptions?
 

Rodjer

Member
Jan 28, 2018
4,300
Even if you don't care about sales data, you can still care about publishers silencing trackers.
What's the gain in calling out publishers if they silence trackers?
They are the ones making the games and they decide if they want to share the data or not with the public.

Not having sales thread and disucssions here will certainly lower console warriors post on ERA.
 

Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,109
It's Media Creates numbers, not your numbers as you put it. There's no right to have them be public. Yes, it's good that they were but if Media Create don't want to publish them anymore, they don't have to. The press isn't reporting on it because most people aren't even aware of the numbers outside of forum users.
 
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Lelouch0612

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,458
Goodness gracious, the entitlement.

1: No. They're not your numbers or our numbers. They're Media Create's numbers.
2: It isn't publishers pushing not to publish them publicly, but Media Create itself. They're a company, and they want to make money with their work.
3: The numbers won't be publicly available via Media Create on Friday. This doesn't mean that publications like 4Gamer won't pay for them to publish them.
4: Even if Media Create numbers become completely unavailable, There are still Famitsu's numbers, which are nearly equivalent.
5: The gaming press' role isn't to bitch at a company that wants to sell its work instead of giving it away for free.

Again. They're not your or our numbers. They belong to Media Create.
It is not about entitlement. Of course it is MC numbers, it is the result of their work and for 25 years their numbers were public.

They changed their policy and I think it is reasonable to find out why, don't you think ?

If Media Create was not pressured, so be it, they have every right to do. However, if publishers are taking advantage of their small structure (11 people like I said) to pressure them, they we should know and why. The press can help to protect smaller entities like MC to do their work, the way they want.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,928
Do we know they're stopping because of an external pressure from a publisher or publishers?

Could they not just be independently taking their data behind a pay wall, to encourage new subscriptions to their data?
 

Nanashrew

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,569
What's the gain in calling out publishers if they silence trackers?
They are the ones making the games and they decide if they want to share the data or not with the public.
Not all developers can afford something like NPD. And there are developers out there who want and desire NPD number leaks because they can be left in the dark just like any of us.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,089
Goodness gracious, the entitlement.

1: No. They're not your numbers or our numbers. They're Media Create's numbers.
2: It isn't publishers pushing not to publish them publicly, but Media Create itself. They're a company, and they want to make money with their work.
3: The numbers won't be publicly available via Media Create on Friday. This doesn't mean that publications like 4Gamer won't pay for them to publish them.
4: Even if Media Create numbers become completely unavailable, There are still Famitsu's numbers, which are nearly equivalent.
5: The gaming press' role isn't to bitch at a company that wants to sell its work instead of giving it away for free.

Again. They're not your or our numbers. They belong to Media Create.
+1

Talking of entitlement in the gaming community...
 

cw_sasuke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,777
Gaming Press for the most part is PR for the publishers - so why would they be stressed about it ? Also most of them arent into sales data at all and will for the most part believe how a game is performing just based on hype/wom and publisher spending.

Just listening to years of gaming podcasts tells me that most arent really interested or care abot the kind of data. vgchartz and and whatever the first google search bring up is usually enough for that audience.

PS. Hell Capcom just increased the prices of RE Switch titles without any kind of justification and only a single outlet with EG called them out on it and asked for a statement - so unless a issue it directly effects the gaming press or the current big AAA title they are into they arent calling out shit.
 

Rodjer

Member
Jan 28, 2018
4,300
Not all developers can afford something like NPD. And there are developers out there who want and desire NPD number leaks because they can be left in the dark just like any of us.
So? Is there a written rule saying that publishers data must be free to everyone?
If developers want to access NPD data they have to pay like everyone else, that's how things works, you can't have statistics and data from competitors for free.
 
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OP
Lelouch0612

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,458
It's Media Creates numbers, not your numbers as you put it. There's no right to have them be public. Yes, it's good that they were but if Media Create don't want to publish them anymore, they don't have to. The press isn't reporting on it because most people aren't even aware of the numbers outside of forum users.
Do we know they're stopping because of an external pressure from a publisher or publishers?

Could they not just be independently taking their data behind a pay wall, to encourage new subscriptions to their data?
That's why the gaming press should investigate don't you think ?

Like I said, if it is MC own decision, there is no problem. A change after a 25 years of the same policy is intriguing, especially looking at the current trend. Why is the Videogame industry so secretive and who are pushing for this is the meaty subject.
 

Nanashrew

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,569
I also don't expect journos to do much of anything when they can't even find Nintendo's CSR reports, when there's a decent sized icon on the IR page that will take you straight to that additional information. A page they likely visit often to report Nintendo's latest fiscal.
 

Zedark

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,353
The Netherlands
What's the gain in calling out publishers if they silence trackers?
They are the ones making the games and they decide if they want to share the data or not with the public.
Publishers don't have a say in whether a retail tracking firm publishes sell-through and shipment numbers for a region, I'd think: that information seems separate from the publisher and proper to the retail chains themselves. Any pressure to suppress that information directed to the retail trackers therefore comes across to me as untoward.

NPD clearly traded secrecy about numbers in exchange for information about digital, which is something that is proper to the publishers (scratch that, I don't think it's accurate). Media Create doesn't seem to have that (but maybe that's why they went silent: in exchange for digital info).
 
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Mory Dunz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,748
Only forum users care about sales data, press and mainstream audience don't care.
what's funny is they don't care, but press members, gaming personalities and regular people bring up sales alll the time lol.

except they just say, "oh X didn't do well. But I'm pretty sure Y sold great"
and a lot of times it's not accurate and based off nebulous feeling.
 

Sander VF

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
6,727
Tbilisi, Georgia
Isn't it the role of the press to prevent such things ? If a publisher is pushing for keeping data from us, isn't it the role of the gaming press to point the finger ?
If the gaming press didn't bother making too much noise over a publisher fraternazing with a community of pedos and nazis (where one of the members just shot up a mosque), then they sure as hell won't do it over something like this.
 
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Abriael

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,599
Milano - Italy
It is not about entitlement. Of course it is MC numbers, it is the result of their work and for 25 years their numbers were public.

They changed their policy and I think it is reasonable to find out why, don't you think ?

If Media Create was not pressured, so be it, they have every right to do. However, if publishers are taking advantage of their small structure (11 people like I said) to pressure them, they we should know and why. The press can help to protect smaller entities like MC to do their work, the way they want.
There's absolutely no indication that Media Create is being pressured by publishers to stop publishing the numbers. Similar numbers are published by Famitsu, so it wouldn't make the slightest sense for publishers to block one tracker and not the other, even if they could (and they most likely can't, because Media Create gets its numbers from retailers, not publishers. They deal in sell-through, not sell-in).

As a matter of fact, Famitsu's numbers are a lot more public considering that Famitsu is the most relevant gaming publication in Japan, and publishes its numbers both on the web and on print.

Media Create doesn't just offer numbers, but market analysis as well, so the most likely scenario is that they want to sell it as a package. It's their most well-known asset, so it makes perfect sense for them business-wise.

We could discuss for hours about the role of the press, but it isn't to pursue every conspiracy theory about the sale of numbers that we're basically getting anyway, related to a market that unfortunately isn't even all that relevant anymore.
 

Harald23

Member
Dec 21, 2017
6,123
In many ways it is, you're just hiding informations.

What's the gain in calling out publishers if they silence trackers?
They are the ones making the games and they decide if they want to share the data or not with the public.

Not having sales thread and disucssions here will certainly lower console warriors post on ERA.
They can twist bad sales performance for a game the way they want, i'd say lack of informations is what make console war bad: everyone start to throw their guesses in all directions because we don't have a clear picture of where the industry is going.
 

ZeroX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,521
Speed Force
Why exactly are we entitled to sales numbers again?

I never saw them as something we were supposed to have, it was just a nice perk that they were shared.
 

Nanashrew

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,569
So? Is there a written rule saying that publishers data must be free to everyone?
If developers want to access NPD data they have to pay like everyone else, that's how things works, you can't have statistics and data from competitors for free.
I believe some like even Mat, has even expressed before that he wishes NPD wasn't so secret about numbers regarding games.

I would say there's plenty who wish none of this was as secret as it is.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,332
Generally, it feels like gaming press like to talk/speculate about how a game supposedly sold, but don't care about having the actual numbers
Too true.
This probably really shows with Yo-kai Watch. Despite doing decently well with actual reported sales numbers, places like Kotaku are doomsaying it, citing the Japan-only stores closing (even though the mobile game still does well)
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,222
Spain
Do we know they're stopping because of an external pressure from a publisher or publishers?

Could they not just be independently taking their data behind a pay wall, to encourage new subscriptions to their data?
I think that's the more likely reason behind the new policy. Assuming a conspiracy by the publishers to hide the truth is weird and not supported by any facts. That said, it would be nice to see some journalists investigating this and reporting their finds.
 
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OP
Lelouch0612

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,458
Gaming Press for the most part is PR for the publishers - so why would they be stressed about it ? Also most of them arent into sales data at all and will for the most part believe how a game is performing just based on hype/wom and publisher spending.

Just listening to years of gaming podcasts tells me that most arent really interested or care abot the kind of data. vgchartz and and whatever the first google search bring up is usually enough for that audience.

PS. Hell Capcom just increased the prices of RE Switch titles without any kind of justification and only a single outlet with EG called them out on it and asked for a statement - so unless a issue it directly effects the gaming press or the current big AAA title they are into they arent calling out shit.
If we the gaming press didn't bother making too much noise over a publisher fraternazing with a community of pedos and nazis (where one of the members just shot up a mosque), then they sure as hell won't do it over something like this.
You are both right, but I decided to highlight some people and outlets that stood out during the past few months.

I think media outlets should be way more unified than this if they want to have an impact. The number of things publishers can do without being called out is depressing.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,140
You are both right, but I decided to highlight some people and outlets that stood out during the past few months.

I think media outlets should be way more unified than this if they want to have an impact. The number of things publishers can do without being called out is depressing.
You're delving into much deeper issues when it comes to the industry. They're not going to bite the hand that feeds them.
 

Harald23

Member
Dec 21, 2017
6,123
They can't twist performance in front of the shareholders and if you believe that you are delusional.
To some extent you can, Apple does it all the time, highlighting the good news (record revenues for services) over the bad ones. (subpar iPhone sales)

Obviously when the failure is that big you can't hide it.

Playstation hid Vita sales, Microsoft with Xbox One is doing the same.
 

Atolm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,801
I don't want to offend anyone as I love Japanese games as most as the next guy, but the fact is that generally speaking, the market doesn't care about Japanese sales because that market has been on a downwards spiral to irrelevance since PS2's end of life. It's a thing for a niche. That Switch is doing well (or Wii and DS back then) isn't news, it's doing well everywhere.
 

Nanashrew

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,569
They can't twist performance in front of the shareholders and if you believe that you are delusional.
Capcom merged new titles with back catalog titles recently, so whatever under performing items they have are now hidden and hard to tell what did what unless otherwise stated by Capcom. Thus losing accurate data. Or how Sony has lumped systems together before with a "family of systems" when something was under performing so no one gets accurate data.

That's one way pubs can twist things.
 

Abriael

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,599
Milano - Italy
MC doesn't make money off the Top 20 but on analysis and reports on the full tacked sample. What we've been getting for years was 1% of their work.
Yes, and they apparently have decided that 1% should make them money.

They're obviously still providing it, for a price.

We continue working on making sales data report (software and hardware), so if your company is interested in market data about Japanese console games, please let us know.
 
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Lelouch0612

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,458
Why exactly are we entitled to sales numbers again?

I never saw them as something we were supposed to have, it was just a nice perk that they were shared.
We are entitled to know, imo, why this 25 years old policy changed, and most importantly if it was because of the pressure put by other stakeholders (like publishers).

Like I said, if it is MC own doing, no problem. However, if there are stakeholders strongarming them, then we should call them out.
 

Rodjer

Member
Jan 28, 2018
4,300
To some extent you can, Apple does it all the time, highlighting the good news (record revenues for services) over the bad ones. (subpar iPhone sales)

Obviously when the failure is that big you can't hide it.
We had EA talking about BFV underperforming, SE said the same thing with Just Cause 4, Activision as well, with a decrese in revenue due to Bungie leaving the publisher.

Here we are talking about the gaming industry and you will never see EA, Activision and such lying in front of the people giving them money to make games.
 

PurelyChris

Member
Oct 28, 2017
293
Germany
Only forum users care about sales data, press and mainstream audience don't care.
This 100%. I can tell you now, from my own site's experience, traffic on sales data (and even more so on Japanese sales data) is complete shite. The general public couldn't give two shits how much Red Dead Redemption 2 sold in Japan, they care about how to play as John Marston and how to get secrets in the game.