Yeah it really sucks, should not be alllowed. They will be able to control the narrative and none will be the wiser.
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After NPD, Media Create numbers will no longer be public ... where is the gaming press ?
- Thread starter Lelouch0612
- Start date
Given my experience with Media Create threads on the new site....I don't really see this as a bad thing.
I mean the conspiracy theories and hateful comments are the result of fanboys fanboying over numbers that ultimately should have no effect on their ability to enjoy the fruits of the industry.
The secrecy isn't fueling this, it's inherent the toxicity of some enthusiasts of the industry.
The problem is people care a lot more about numbers than they should. So what if a game sold 1 million copies or 200k copies? What difference does that knowledge make for the consumer experience ? None whatsoever.
Public reports aren't what prevent this from happening. Trackers still sell the data, and people who are potentially adversely effected by dishonest financial reporting are the ones who would be purchasing it. Also, there's constant legal oversight.
What? Retailers are a source of the sales data, not the recipients. They place initial order based on projections from publishers and analysts, then restock based on their own sales. Publishers wouldn't know sell through without estimates from trackers, all they know for sure is what they sell-in to retailers.
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Thread should have ended with this post. The press can do nothing to force Media Create or the NPD to make numbers public for free. The very idea betrays people's absurd ignorance on the topic.
This is exactly why. Third party sources are why you know how much a theater makes in theaters. Third party sources talk about product sales. Outside of that, the companies only have to make earnings publicly available and they can use whatever metrics hey want to report as important. Similar to how you can no longer see pure sales numbers in Xbox Financial reporting.
Theyre better here since we dont have the GAF mods and their friends who would constantly shit up MC threads
But what's the consumer impact about them "controlling" sales narrative?
If Publisher X decides not to talk about sales and instead says " we had a million players, what's the harm to you?
Why do you think the media has any right to said numbers?
Data like this is valuable. If Media Create and NPD can sell access, rather than give it away, they will.
men still shocked its going. Media create was the reason i started following the old place. waited years to be able to post. The name of the thread is going to change damn
And these types are also being driven out of this space through stricter moderation. Psycho_Mantis, Ethomaz, and much more have become banned or permabanned for their console warring, conspiracies, and hateful comments, in sales threads. And hateful comments and conspiracy theorists should continue to be pushed out as they have no business in discussions cause all they do is spread FUD. And this applies to all things, not just sales numbers. You have an industry that is very secretive, and also an audience unwilling to learn when information is actually available, all while calling themselves enthusiasts who are interested in the goings-on in this industry.
There are people willing to learn though. Just because you think everyone is ignorant and do these things, doesn't mean everyone does it.
......since when does Ign, gameindustry,siliconera, and nintendolife is niche sites? Whats with all this anti transparency apologist?
That's fine, but even if everyone was genuinely interested in learning, that doesn't entitle anyone to the data.
It was awesome that some trackers offered their data to the public free of charge, but that was alway a luxury, not some moral requirement.
This industry isn't really that secretive. Most other industries get their sales data publicized by 3rd party trackers (if at all) - and those trackers tend to have business models that benefit financially by making that data free to the public.
Edit: also, just reading through this thread, it's pretty ironic how many of the people upset about the loss of public data appear to be the most ignorant when it comes to how the business actually works. I'm not convinced public sales data has been a great source of education.
That's a new one. Having a realistic understanding of how business actually works and what data consumers are actually entitled to makes a person anti-transparency and an apologist. Who are we apologizing for ? MC and their decision to change their business model? They don't own anyone anything for free.
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So from Lelouch0612 's post there wasn't much context (since it was about complaining about the lack of coverage on it), so here it is: (maybe to add to OP)
https://www.m-create.com/english/latest_research/e_ranking.html
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It's nice that companies can have access to all the previous data but independent researchers are not always affiliated to a company.
I guess it is simply a matter of contacting them with a request to access the archives?
Only their weekly reports were the ones made public I think. (I guess you could just combine them to get the rest.) Maybe in the future they might disclose their more coarse yearly/quarterly data recaps, while keeping their "live" recaps as paying incentive?
https://www.m-create.com/english/latest_research/e_ranking.html
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Dear Visitors,
From April, we will change the disclosing policy of weekly sales ranking into top 10 software ranking without sales number.
We continue working on making sales data report (software and hardware), so if your company is interested in market data about Japanese console games, please let us know.
Media Create Co., Ltd.
»----
It's nice that companies can have access to all the previous data but independent researchers are not always affiliated to a company.
I guess it is simply a matter of contacting them with a request to access the archives?
Only their weekly reports were the ones made public I think. (I guess you could just combine them to get the rest.) Maybe in the future they might disclose their more coarse yearly/quarterly data recaps, while keeping their "live" recaps as paying incentive?
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I'm late to this, but numbers are very educational and gives us trends in the market, because without numbers you cannot tell where the market is going. Without all these numbers from Media Create and Famitsu, we'd never had known that home consoles market in Japan was rapidly losing popularity to dedicated handhelds and mobile. You could not see what issues were/are appearing in the market, like how the market is reacting to sequel after sequel, and low quality anime games and where people are shifting too to get a better fix for these needs. The only company to not see software decline in Japan despite all their sequels is Nintendo because of their willingness to change things up and offer high quality polish to even their smallest games. And the mobile market is putting in more effort in their anime titles and providing deeper stories than games Compile Hearts or Bandai Namco put out. Nor would you see that there is a bit of growth in western game popularity starting to emerge in Japan.
And you cannot rely on fiscal reports either as they won't give out every detail. Sony only ever gives worldwide hardware data, and never gives out regional splits. Fiscal reports can also be fudged a little by merging things and doing a slight of hand to show things are fine and dandy while covering up any failures or under performances. See Capcom and their merging of software data mixing their back catalog releases such as remasters, remakes, and ports, along with brand new titles like MHW, MM11, or whatever else.
Numbers are good and useful to have to give you a wider picture of the markets.
Imo they're even worse here. The week when MHW was released is legendary (in a bad way). It'll just be called Famitsu thread from now on though so the threads are not going anywhere.
On topic I really think it sucks that the gaming industry are hiding numbers but we have absolutely 0 indication that MC are being pressured. They're just trying to monetize a part of their business.
Aye, MH talk are the few times those threads can turn a little sour. It derails too much. Hopefully this can be something that can be addressed at some point, because after awhile the conversation around MH just goes in circles.
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You don't need unit sales to see market trends. Actually this is exactly the type of information that is gleaned from fiscal earnings and analyst reporting.
Your right. They don't give "every detail" but they provide enough insight for investors to make decisions on how to invest based on trends and whether or not they believe publishers actions are aligning with trends.
Consumers actually generally aren't using unit sale information to make any decisions - so its hard to argue that it needs to be public. We use it to have discussion and debate that is ultimately fruitless. Is it good/fun to have numbers? Sure. But there's no need or moral obligation for it to be provided publically. Trackers are working to gather this info - it doesn't tabulate itself automatically. and if they want to get paid for their efforts, so be it.
As far as mixing things to "appear fine and dandy" that's for investors to worry about, not consumers. If publishers decide to give a combined outlook to show that, overall, the company is doing well, so be it, so long as they aren't lying about overall health. Consumers don't really need to know if an individual game sold well or not -
But let's say, you, as an individual, didn't know that home consoles were losing ground tohandhelds in Japan, because you typically got that info from Unit Sales - how are you adversely impacted by not having access to this piece of trivia?
You don't need unit sales to see market trends. Actually this is exactly the type of information that is gleaned from fiscal earnings and analyst reporting.
Your right. They don't give "every detail" but they provide enough insight for investors to make decisions on how to invest based on trends and whether or not they believe publishers actions are aligning with trends.
Consumers actually generally aren't using unit sale information to make any decisions - so its hard to argue that it needs to be public. We use it to have discussion and debate that is ultimately fruitless. Is it good/fun to have numbers? Sure. But there's no need or moral obligation for it to be provided publically. Trackers are working to gather this info - it doesn't tabulate itself automatically. and if they want to get paid for their efforts, so be it.
As far as mixing things to "appear fine and dandy" that's for investors to worry about, not consumers. If publishers decide to give a combined outlook to show that, overall, the company is doing well, so be it, so long as they aren't lying about overall health. Consumers don't really need to know if an individual game sold well or not -
But let's say, you, as an individual, didn't know that home consoles were losing ground tohandhelds in Japan, because you typically got that info from Unit Sales - how are you adversely impacted by not having access to this piece of trivia?
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Having consumed content from podcasts to videos from Western gaming press for a while now, it certainly doesn't feel like it.
Except they're not your/our numbers are they? I'll never stop being shocked at how gamers seem to be the most entitled people. Mediacrate literally owe you nothing so they're well within their right do to this, as sucky as it is for us.
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I guess they could include independent developers and independent researchers as a minority in the "us" that would be interested in this data (for opportunity planning, trends analysis, ...). So that it's not just randos from the internet.
Funny you think the threads are better because dissenting opinions were driven out. I wouldn't say the moderation changed but the reporting feature made a difference. It's easy to mass report someone going against the grain of every game should be on "insert current Nintendo console" or company "X" is incompetent because they don't port games "insert current Nintendo console".
What? This enthusiast forum doesn't have trouble understanding how this industry even works, operates, or how games are even made because of secrecy. There are many years worth of very public resources explaining all that in detail: industry/design focused sites like Gamasutra and GameIndustry, sites like TIGSource, dev streams and dev logs and dev diaries for everything from obscure indie games to AAA games, channels like GDC and myriad others on game design, books and podcasts and other media, devs on these very forums providing insights
If people on this enthusiast forum doesn't know about how the industry works or how games are made, it's not because of secrecy or lack of knowledge. It's because they don't care or have an interest in educating themselves, and the general audience is even less interested.
Biases and lack of interest in learning about game design or how games are made is what fuels conspiracy theories, hateful comments, etc, "lazy dev" rhetoric and so on.
You mean Psycho_Mantis, who has a history of gas-lighting people? Or Ethomaz who is a load of hot air and has harassed insiders and leakers? Yeah, I'm glad people like them are gone.
The funny thing here is people agreeing with Abriael, a known fanboy who doesn't like to post MC or Famitsu weekly numbers at times when Playstation isn't doing too well, but will when they do. But you know, he has 10 years of experience with MC, but struggles to find any people playing their Switches in public restrooms in Japan and has used this as a way to say it wasn't performing well. There's much more disingenuousness from Abriael when it comes to sales data and information I won't get into though. There are a number of names in this thread that don't care about something like losing sales information, because they already have a history in sales threads for being disingenuous and trolling, and ruin any real discussion people are having.
I also wonder if you read this Bloomberg article and interview: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...nknown-data-guru-to-make-millions-on-nintendo
Because Investors aren't buying for financial breakdown and revenue from Media Create, they are paying for the point-of-sale and shipment data to better see trends outside of fiscal and quarterly reports that many don't provide.
That Nintendo bit even backs up what I was saying about Nintendo's transparency and regional breakdowns.
Funny thing about the fine and dandy part. We used to have an actual investor here with years and years of experience, Aquamarine, she used to give us all kinds of NPD sales leaks, she was also the one that gave us Nintendo's entire historical data from when NPD had just started tracking data, and the big break down of how the Pokemon IP works between Gamefreak, Nintendo, and The Pokemon Company. And you wouldn't believe how people like Mr. Carter or H-I-M (2 people in this thread who don't care about this news or loss of sales information) and others disregarding the important things she said, and actual information on Capcom making it difficult to have an actual discussion on Capcom's financials. The merging of data was one thing, but they were also using the success of MHW to cover up stuff at the time. I dunno if her posts are still in the old Capcom thread though, I believe she left era and had much of her posts deleted.
Honestly, with how this conversation is going and with what I can assume is a devil's advocate bit, I question if you think sales threads should even be a thing in the first place. Because you make it sound like none of this should be the concern of anyone but business professionals, regardless of anything I or anyone else would have to say.
Should we simply trust companies like SEGA to give an accurate number of total sales of the Sonic franchise, or go with the narrative set by SEGA that is false and inflated because they combined merchandising and everything possibly related to Sonic with the games to make them appear bigger than it is. Should we simply believe that Dragalia Lost did so bad it created a loss for Cyber Agent when their real losses came from their TV investments? How do we counter false narratives set by a company? Many are readily and willing to believe anything a company says at the drop of a hat, and I think whatever information we can get from fiscals and publicly made data is helpful to counter false narratives. And I'd argue it would also be in the best interest of some news outlets to start keeping such public sales information while it's available. Companies have been known to fib and smudge and it's best they didn't always regurgitate them and counter with actual information where they can.
And as I've noticed and named names above, some that don't seem to care about the loss of sales information in this thread are ones that have a history participating in console war behavior in sales threads and setting their own narrative and general bias, rejecting other perspectives that conflict with their own.
I don't even know why anyone would want less information.
You are right. I clarified a little later that I feel there are aspects to both. There are still areas of secrecy in the gaming industry and where they lack communication, and there are also a lot of places to go for information on game creation and plenty who don't want to seek it out or listen to it when it's there in front of them.
Nintendo is so far the only one that really gives us numbers regularly in their fiscals unlike a majority of other companies. It's why we can have a detailed sales thread for Nintendo and keep numbers frequently updated. And it's why only Nintendo has this kind of sales thread because they are the only ones that provide a large amount of transparency in their sales. Heck, they never once hid Wii U sales figures at all despite how much of a failure it was.
I also wonder if you read this Bloomberg article and interview: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...nknown-data-guru-to-make-millions-on-nintendo
Because Investors aren't buying for financial breakdown and revenue from Media Create, they are paying for the point-of-sale and shipment data to better see trends outside of fiscal and quarterly reports that many don't provide.
That Nintendo bit even backs up what I was saying about Nintendo's transparency and regional breakdowns.
Funny thing about the fine and dandy part. We used to have an actual investor here with years and years of experience, Aquamarine, she used to give us all kinds of NPD sales leaks, she was also the one that gave us Nintendo's entire historical data from when NPD had just started tracking data, and the big break down of how the Pokemon IP works between Gamefreak, Nintendo, and The Pokemon Company. And you wouldn't believe how people like Mr. Carter or H-I-M (2 people in this thread who don't care about this news or loss of sales information) and others disregarding the important things she said, and actual information on Capcom making it difficult to have an actual discussion on Capcom's financials. The merging of data was one thing, but they were also using the success of MHW to cover up stuff at the time. I dunno if her posts are still in the old Capcom thread though, I believe she left era and had much of her posts deleted.
Honestly, with how this conversation is going and with what I can assume is a devil's advocate bit, I question if you think sales threads should even be a thing in the first place. Because you make it sound like none of this should be the concern of anyone but business professionals, regardless of anything I or anyone else would have to say.
Should we simply trust companies like SEGA to give an accurate number of total sales of the Sonic franchise, or go with the narrative set by SEGA that is false and inflated because they combined merchandising and everything possibly related to Sonic with the games to make them appear bigger than it is. Should we simply believe that Dragalia Lost did so bad it created a loss for Cyber Agent when their real losses came from their TV investments? How do we counter false narratives set by a company? Many are readily and willing to believe anything a company says at the drop of a hat, and I think whatever information we can get from fiscals and publicly made data is helpful to counter false narratives. And I'd argue it would also be in the best interest of some news outlets to start keeping such public sales information while it's available. Companies have been known to fib and smudge and it's best they didn't always regurgitate them and counter with actual information where they can.
And as I've noticed and named names above, some that don't seem to care about the loss of sales information in this thread are ones that have a history participating in console war behavior in sales threads and setting their own narrative and general bias, rejecting other perspectives that conflict with their own.
I don't even know why anyone would want less information.
You are right. I clarified a little later that I feel there are aspects to both. There are still areas of secrecy in the gaming industry and where they lack communication, and there are also a lot of places to go for information on game creation and plenty who don't want to seek it out or listen to it when it's there in front of them.
What a ridiculous thread lol.
If MC wants to sell their work, who cares? Just because they gave it away for 24 years, doesn't mean they had to continue doing so. They also don't owe you shit, whether that be an explanation on why the policy changed or the numbers themselves. If you want the numbers and the work they put into compiling that data, pay for it. Otherwise, move on. It's that simple and there's no discussion to be had here
If MC wants to sell their work, who cares? Just because they gave it away for 24 years, doesn't mean they had to continue doing so. They also don't owe you shit, whether that be an explanation on why the policy changed or the numbers themselves. If you want the numbers and the work they put into compiling that data, pay for it. Otherwise, move on. It's that simple and there's no discussion to be had here
Ok I think we are talking past each other.
Do I think having this information is bad? No. Do I think there is anything wrong with having sales threads or that sales threads shouldn't exist? No. Do I want less information? No, I just don't feel entitled to it.
At the end of the day, unit sales discussions by enthusiaasts are primarily for entertainment. People come to the forums because they like talking about games- and how well games sell is yet another topic of discussion/debate. Unfortunately, the particular information that we use to fuel these discussions, we aren't inherently privy to. So while losing this public data may make for a less interesting time in sales threads, or on the forums, this knowledge has never been paramount for a consumer enjoyment or safety within this industry. We play games - the exact sales performance of individual games has 0 impact on our ability to do so. Media Create isn't in the business of entertaining gamers on discussion boards and they have no moral obligation to do so.
So I really can't answer your question about "false narratives". I can't give you advice on whether or not you should believe Sega - but I do know Sega's sales narrative isnt aimed at consumers/enthusiasts - it's aimed investors. I can choose to believe them or not, but ultimately their sales narrative doesn't impact my ability to decide whether to consume their products or not. Most consumers hardly engage with sales narrative at all.
As an enthusiast, while I may like this type of access, I don't need to know the exact sales performance of individual sonic games - I need to know whether or not sonic games have entertainment value for me, so that I can decided to buy them or not.
As an investor, I'd care about whether or not Sega is properly leveraging the strength of their IP into profit, so the combined performance of Sonic branded goods IS something I'd care about. Additional detailed knowledge about the sales performance of individual goods could help me further judge Sega's priorities, so POS data would be valuable to me - so much so that i'd be willing to pay for it.
As a business that tabulates POS data, it might make sense for me to sell this data rather than provide it publically, because my work has monetary value to investors, and I'd want to capitalize on that demand.
So yeah, I understand why this data becoming confidential sucks for people who like discussing it - But I don't think anyone is owed this data - unless of course they made some sort of financial transaction for it.
Gaming News outlets won't keep this info because their audience really doesn't care about it - beyond generalizations and publisher provided accolades. That's the reality of it.
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Why do you want firms to be the only ones to know information useful for analysing industry trends? Keep in mind that what MC was publicly sharing was just the tip of the iceberg and not much more.
You are supporting a person who literally use number to push his agenda of ps fanboyism while calling others who wanted transparency regarding sales of gaming industry being brainless?
Probably you should reconsider who here who dont have a working brain i suppose.
Doesn't make his statement any less true. Transparency is great, but it comes at a cost.
The only thing true from Abriael statement is it shows how hypocrite he was. Transparency is there so us consumer and possible investor knows the climate of the industry we love and follow.
The moment they begin to censor or hide info there. Is the moment those big company can make bullish statement without us knowing whether what the hell they are spewing is true or not.
There are organizations and parties involved using their own resources to collect information, it is entirely up to them whether they choose to release them or not. Your idealistic view of companies being completely transparent is unrealistic if for nothing else than strategic reasons. Transparency can also do a lot of to fuel speculation, the unfounded, and lead to a lot of feedback based on irrationality. I'm not against less information for the public in any way, but I understand why companies do what they do, and I believe they have the right to do that, if they have a claim to it. A company isn't obligated to tell the public regularly about how their products are performing. The people that need to know are privy to that info and if the company is public, their financial records are readily available. You're arguing that they should, i'm saying they don't have to and I understand if they don't ( for good reasons and bad).
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