Yeah it really sucks, should not be alllowed. They will be able to control the narrative and none will be the wiser.It's so weird. No other industry hide their sales data like the gaming one does.
Yeah it really sucks, should not be alllowed. They will be able to control the narrative and none will be the wiser.It's so weird. No other industry hide their sales data like the gaming one does.
Given my experience with Media Create threads on the old site....I don't really see this as a bad thing.
It's really disappointing to read this thread and see so many want the industry to remain secret. This industry is so secret this enthusiast forum has frequent trouble understanding how this industry even works, operates, or how games are even made. And it's this secrecy that frequently fuels conspiracy theories, hateful comments, etc., because we hardly have actual facts and data to rely upon.
I know, but with budgets getting larger, studios shutting down, the lack of unions and endless crunch, lack of transparency for sales, the industry doesn't seem like it's in a healthy state. Like I said, a major game having a scandal where they falsify their sales in order to keep the money coming in won't surprise me, especially given all the digital storefronts and separate international markets.
Some company says "oh, we sold x in y market" but it turns out a shady company gave them cash, and they dumped a shipping container full of games into a landfill to help a shady company launder money, I wouldn't be shocked.
I get it, if a company does that, it's illegal. I'm just saying that if the public and press aren't reporting on the industry, there will be players in the industry that will do illegal things.
I think it's a byproduct of digitization.
Netflix is subscriber based. A TV show sells ad space, and ad buyers need to know the "value" of an ad, so a third-party group provides numbers -otherwise the TV stations could make up the numbers and set the price.
With games sales, the numbers have to be known so retailers can stock appropriately, because shelf and warehouse space is a cost for retailers. Going to digital, and having private storefronts (EA, Ubisoft, Blizzard, Rockstar, etc.) means that pubs have no real reason to share info.
Goodness gracious, the entitlement.
1: No. They're not your numbers or our numbers. They're Media Create's numbers.
2: It isn't publishers pushing not to publish them publicly, but Media Create itself. They're a company, and they want to make money with their work.
3: The numbers won't be publicly available via Media Create on Friday. This doesn't mean that publications like 4Gamer won't pay for them to publish them.
4: Even if Media Create numbers become completely unavailable, There are still Famitsu's numbers, which are nearly equivalent.
5: The gaming press' role isn't to bitch at a company that wants to sell its work instead of giving it away for free.
Again. They're not your or our numbers. They belong to Media Create.
I think it's a byproduct of digitization.
Netflix is subscriber based. A TV show sells ad space, and ad buyers need to know the "value" of an ad, so a third-party group provides numbers -otherwise the TV stations could make up the numbers and set the price.
With games sales, the numbers have to be known so retailers can stock appropriately, because shelf and warehouse space is a cost for retailers. Going to digital, and having private storefronts (EA, Ubisoft, Blizzard, Rockstar, etc.) means that pubs have no real reason to share info.
Theyre better here since we dont have the GAF mods and their friends who would constantly shit up MC threadsGiven my experience with Media Create threads on the old site....I don't really see this as a bad thing.
Yeah it really sucks, should not be alllowed. They will be able to control the narrative and none will be the wiser.
Through a notice on their website, Media Create confirmed that they'll no longer share sales numbers (hardware and software) to the public.
Media Create has been going on since 1994, 25 years ago, and has been providing us with reliable and exhaustive data on the Japanese market.
It is also a small company (11 people), which cannot resist to the pressure put by its stakeholders (publishers for example).
There is a story here and yet I fail to see any big media reporting it. Nada. Rien. Niente.
Isn't it the role of the press to prevent such things ? If a publisher is pushing for keeping data from us, isn't it the role of the gaming press to point the finger ?
We live in socially connected world, bad PR can have disastrous consequences, the press has a real leverage there but they don't care.
During these past few months, a lot of industry problems have been raised, crunch, social protection, THQ Nordic debacle, and people like Imran or jschreier and also Waypoint have been calling out these issues.
While the movie industry is getting detailed daily numbers on almost every country, we are continually losing the scraps that we had (US numbers, Media Create numbers, seemingly Spanish numbers now too via Hobby Consolas).
It might be mere numbers, but it is our numbers, ours since 1994. If a publisher is taking them out from us, we should know why and who's behind it.
MOD EDIT: removed profanity from thread title
And these types are also being driven out of this space through stricter moderation. Psycho_Mantis, Ethomaz, and much more have become banned or permabanned for their console warring, conspiracies, and hateful comments, in sales threads. And hateful comments and conspiracy theorists should continue to be pushed out as they have no business in discussions cause all they do is spread FUD. And this applies to all things, not just sales numbers. You have an industry that is very secretive, and also an audience unwilling to learn when information is actually available, all while calling themselves enthusiasts who are interested in the goings-on in this industry.I mean the conspiracy theories and hateful comments are the result of fanboys fanboying over numbers that ultimately should have no effect on their ability to enjoy the fruits of the industry.
The secrecy isn't fueling this, it's inherent the toxicity of some enthusiasts of the industry.
The problem is people care a lot more about numbers than they should. So what if a game sold 1 million copies or 200k copies? What difference does that knowledge make for the consumer experience ? None whatsoever.
The fact that you had to go to these absurdly niche sites is proof enough. ;)
Well said.
(Also, awesome avatar. I hope to have some fun upcoming news in regards to that movie later this Summer!) ;)
And these types are also being driven out of this space through stricter moderation. Psycho_Mantis, Ethomaz, and much more have become banned or permabanned for their console warring, conspiracies, and hateful comments, in sales threads. And hateful comments and conspiracy theorists should continue to be pushed out as they have no business in discussions cause all they do is spread FUD. And this applies to all things, not just sales numbers. You have an industry that is very secretive, and also an audience unwilling to learn when information is actually available, all while calling themselves enthusiasts who are interested in the goings-on in this industry.
There are people willing to learn though. Just because you think everyone is ignorant and do these things, doesn't mean everyone does it.
......since when does Ign, gameindustry,siliconera, and nintendolife is niche sites? Whats with all this anti transparency apologist?
Yep. That is PBS and CSPAN do so well in ratings. People love being educated by their media sources.
I'm late to this, but numbers are very educational and gives us trends in the market, because without numbers you cannot tell where the market is going. Without all these numbers from Media Create and Famitsu, we'd never had known that home consoles market in Japan was rapidly losing popularity to dedicated handhelds and mobile. You could not see what issues were/are appearing in the market, like how the market is reacting to sequel after sequel, and low quality anime games and where people are shifting too to get a better fix for these needs. The only company to not see software decline in Japan despite all their sequels is Nintendo because of their willingness to change things up and offer high quality polish to even their smallest games. And the mobile market is putting in more effort in their anime titles and providing deeper stories than games Compile Hearts or Bandai Namco put out. Nor would you see that there is a bit of growth in western game popularity starting to emerge in Japan.That's fine, but even if everyone was genuinely interested in learning, that doesn't entitle anyone to the data.
It was awesome that some trackers offered their data to the public free of charge, but that was alway a luxury, not some moral requirement.
This industry isn't really that secretive. Most other industries get their sales data publicized by 3rd party trackers (if at all) - and those trackers tend to have business models that benefit financially by making that data free to the public.
Edit: also, just reading through this thread, it's pretty ironic how many of the people upset about the loss of public data appear to be the most ignorant when it comes to how the business actually works. I'm not convinced public sales data has been a great source of education.
Theyre better here since we dont have the GAF mods and their friends who would constantly shit up MC threads
Aye, MH talk are the few times those threads can turn a little sour. It derails too much. Hopefully this can be something that can be addressed at some point, because after awhile the conversation around MH just goes in circles.Imo they're even worse here. The week when MHW was released is legendary (in a bad way). It'll just be called Famitsu thread from now on though so the threads are not going anywhere.
On topic I really think it sucks that the gaming industry are hiding numbers but we have absolutely 0 indication that MC are being pressured. They're just trying to monetize a part of their business.
Generally, it feels like gaming press like to talk/speculate about how a game supposedly sold, but don't care about having the actual numbers
I'm late to this, but numbers are very educational and gives us trends in the market, because without numbers you cannot tell where the market is going. Without all these numbers from Media Create and Famitsu, we'd never had known that home consoles market in Japan was rapidly losing popularity to dedicated handhelds and mobile. You could not see what issues were/are appearing in the market, like how the market is reacting to sequel after sequel, and low quality anime games and where people are shifting too to get a better fix for these needs. The only company to not see software decline in Japan despite all their sequels is Nintendo because of their willingness to change things up and offer high quality polish to even their smallest games. And the mobile market is putting in more effort in their anime titles and providing deeper stories than games Compile Hearts or Bandai Namco put out. Nor would you see that there is a bit of growth in western game popularity starting to emerge in Japan.
And you cannot rely on fiscal reports either as they won't give out every detail. Sony only ever gives worldwide hardware data, and never gives out regional splits. Fiscal reports can also be fudged a little by merging things and doing a slight of hand to show things are fine and dandy while covering up any failures or under performances. See Capcom and their merging of software data mixing their back catalog releases such as remasters, remakes, and ports, along with brand new titles like MHW, MM11, or whatever else.
Numbers are good and useful to have to give you a wider picture of the markets.
Having consumed content from podcasts to videos from Western gaming press for a while now, it certainly doesn't feel like it.
It might be mere numbers, but it is our numbers, ours since 1994. If a publisher is taking them out from us, we should know why and who's behind it.
MOD EDIT: removed profanity from thread title
I guess they could include independent developers and independent researchers as a minority in the "us" that would be interested in this data (for opportunity planning, trends analysis, ...). So that it's not just randos from the internet.Except they're not your/our numbers are they? I'll never stop being shocked at how gamers seem to be the most entitled people. Mediacrate literally owe you nothing so they're well within their right do to this, as sucky as it is for us.
And these types are also being driven out of this space through stricter moderation. Psycho_Mantis, Ethomaz, and much more have become banned or permabanned for their console warring, conspiracies, and hateful comments, in sales threads. And hateful comments and conspiracy theorists should continue to be pushed out as they have no business in discussions cause all they do is spread FUD. And this applies to all things, not just sales numbers. You have an industry that is very secretive, and also an audience unwilling to learn when information is actually available, all while calling themselves enthusiasts who are interested in the goings-on in this industry.
There are people willing to learn though. Just because you think everyone is ignorant and do these things, doesn't mean everyone does it.
What? This enthusiast forum doesn't have trouble understanding how this industry even works, operates, or how games are even made because of secrecy. There are many years worth of very public resources explaining all that in detail: industry/design focused sites like Gamasutra and GameIndustry, sites like TIGSource, dev streams and dev logs and dev diaries for everything from obscure indie games to AAA games, channels like GDC and myriad others on game design, books and podcasts and other media, devs on these very forums providing insightsIt's really disappointing to read this thread and see so many want the industry to remain secret. This industry is so secret this enthusiast forum has frequent trouble understanding how this industry even works, operates, or how games are even made. And it's this secrecy that frequently fuels conspiracy theories, hateful comments, etc., because we hardly have actual facts and data to rely upon.
You mean Psycho_Mantis, who has a history of gas-lighting people? Or Ethomaz who is a load of hot air and has harassed insiders and leakers? Yeah, I'm glad people like them are gone.Funny you think the threads are better because dissenting opinions were driven out. I wouldn't say the moderation changed but the reporting feature made a difference. It's easy to mass report someone going against the grain of every game should be on "insert current Nintendo console" or company "X" is incompetent because they don't port games "insert current Nintendo console".
Somebody with brains, peace brother lol.Goodness gracious, the entitlement.
1: No. They're not your numbers or our numbers. They're Media Create's numbers.
2: It isn't publishers pushing not to publish them publicly, but Media Create itself. They're a company, and they want to make money with their work.
3: The numbers won't be publicly available via Media Create on Friday. This doesn't mean that publications like 4Gamer won't pay for them to publish them.
4: Even if Media Create numbers become completely unavailable, There are still Famitsu's numbers, which are nearly equivalent.
5: The gaming press' role isn't to bitch at a company that wants to sell its work instead of giving it away for free.
Again. They're not your or our numbers. They belong to Media Create.
Nintendo is so far the only one that really gives us numbers regularly in their fiscals unlike a majority of other companies. It's why we can have a detailed sales thread for Nintendo and keep numbers frequently updated. And it's why only Nintendo has this kind of sales thread because they are the only ones that provide a large amount of transparency in their sales. Heck, they never once hid Wii U sales figures at all despite how much of a failure it was.You don't need unit sales to see market trends. Actually this is exactly the type of information that is gleaned from fiscal earnings and analyst reporting.
Your right. They don't give "every detail" but they provide enough insight for investors to make decisions on how to invest based on trends and whether or not they believe publishers actions are aligning with trends.
Consumers actually generally aren't using unit sale information to make any decisions - so its hard to argue that it needs to be public. We use it to have discussion and debate that is ultimately fruitless. Is it good/fun to have numbers? Sure. But there's no need or moral obligation for it to be provided publically. Trackers are working to gather this info - it doesn't tabulate itself automatically. and if they want to get paid for their efforts, so be it.
As far as mixing things to "appear fine and dandy" that's for investors to worry about, not consumers. If publishers decide to give a combined outlook to show that, overall, the company is doing well, so be it, so long as they aren't lying about overall health. Consumers don't really need to know if an individual game sold well or not -
But let's say, you, as an individual, didn't know that home consoles were losing ground tohandhelds in Japan, because you typically got that info from Unit Sales - how are you adversely impacted by not having access to this piece of trivia?
Media Create is part of a burgeoning industry of specialist data providers that help investors make more informed bets on everything from stocks to commodities and currencies. The 25-year-old firm distinguishes itself through close relationships with about 2,000 gaming shops and dozens of publishers, which provide Hosokawa's analysts with weekly point-of-sale and shipment data on hardware and software in Japan, South Korea and Taiwan.
The data isn't comprehensive, but his analysts extrapolate with what Hosokawa calls "keikensoku." The term is usually translated in English as "rule of thumb," but it literally means "measuring by experience." Clients pay $20,000 or more a year for reports that forecast local and international trends.
Hosokawa, who also provides some key statistics for free every week on his website, said it is easier to predict global trends for Nintendo than rivals like Sony Corp. That's partly because Nintendo publishes a regional breakdown of Switch sales, according to Serkan Toto, founder of Tokyo-based consultancy Kantan Games Inc.
What? This enthusiast forum doesn't have trouble understanding how this industry even works, operates, or how games are even made because of secrecy. There are many years worth of very public resources explaining all that in detail: industry/design focused sites like Gamasutra and GameIndustry, sites like TIGSource, dev streams and dev logs and dev diaries for everything from obscure indie games to AAA games, channels like GDC and myriad others on game design, books and podcasts and other media, devs on these very forums providing insights
If people on this enthusiast forum doesn't know about how the industry works or how games are made, it's not because of secrecy or lack of knowledge. It's because they don't care or have an interest in educating themselves, and the general audience is even less interested.
Biases and lack of interest in learning about game design or how games are made is what fuels conspiracy theories, hateful comments, etc, "lazy dev" rhetoric and so on.
The funny thing here is people agreeing with Abriael, a known fanboy who doesn't like to post MC or Famitsu weekly numbers at times when Playstation isn't doing too well, but will when they do. But you know, he has 10 years of experience with MC, but struggles to find any people playing their Switches in public restrooms in Japan and has used this as a way to say it wasn't performing well. There's much more disingenuousness from Abriael when it comes to sales data and information I won't get into though. There are a number of names in this thread that don't care about something like losing sales information, because they already have a history in sales threads for being disingenuous and trolling, and ruin any real discussion people are having.
Nintendo is so far the only one that really gives us numbers regularly in their fiscals unlike a majority of other companies. It's why we can have a detailed sales thread for Nintendo and keep numbers frequently updated. And it's why only Nintendo has this kind of sales thread because they are the only ones that provide a large amount of transparency in their sales. Heck, they never once hid Wii U sales figures at all despite how much of a failure it was.
I also wonder if you read this Bloomberg article and interview: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...nknown-data-guru-to-make-millions-on-nintendo
Because Investors aren't buying for financial breakdown and revenue from Media Create, they are paying for the point-of-sale and shipment data to better see trends outside of fiscal and quarterly reports that many don't provide.
That Nintendo bit even backs up what I was saying about Nintendo's transparency and regional breakdowns.
Funny thing about the fine and dandy part. We used to have an actual investor here with years and years of experience, Aquamarine, she used to give us all kinds of NPD sales leaks, she was also the one that gave us Nintendo's entire historical data from when NPD had just started tracking data, and the big break down of how the Pokemon IP works between Gamefreak, Nintendo, and The Pokemon Company. And you wouldn't believe how people like Mr. Carter or H-I-M (2 people in this thread who don't care about this news or loss of sales information) and others disregarding the important things she said, and actual information on Capcom making it difficult to have an actual discussion on Capcom's financials. The merging of data was one thing, but they were also using the success of MHW to cover up stuff at the time. I dunno if her posts are still in the old Capcom thread though, I believe she left era and had much of her posts deleted.
Honestly, with how this conversation is going and with what I can assume is a devil's advocate bit, I question if you think sales threads should even be a thing in the first place. Because you make it sound like none of this should be the concern of anyone but business professionals, regardless of anything I or anyone else would have to say.
Should we simply trust companies like SEGA to give an accurate number of total sales of the Sonic franchise, or go with the narrative set by SEGA that is false and inflated because they combined merchandising and everything possibly related to Sonic with the games to make them appear bigger than it is. Should we simply believe that Dragalia Lost did so bad it created a loss for Cyber Agent when their real losses came from their TV investments? How do we counter false narratives set by a company? Many are readily and willing to believe anything a company says at the drop of a hat, and I think whatever information we can get from fiscals and publicly made data is helpful to counter false narratives. And I'd argue it would also be in the best interest of some news outlets to start keeping such public sales information while it's available. Companies have been known to fib and smudge and it's best they didn't always regurgitate them and counter with actual information where they can.
And as I've noticed and named names above, some that don't seem to care about the loss of sales information in this thread are ones that have a history participating in console war behavior in sales threads and setting their own narrative and general bias, rejecting other perspectives that conflict with their own.
I don't even know why anyone would want less information.
You are right. I clarified a little later that I feel there are aspects to both. There are still areas of secrecy in the gaming industry and where they lack communication, and there are also a lot of places to go for information on game creation and plenty who don't want to seek it out or listen to it when it's there in front of them.
What a ridiculous thread lol.
If MC wants to sell their work, who cares? Just because they gave it away for 24 years, doesn't mean they had to continue doing so. They also don't owe you shit, whether that be an explanation on why the policy changed or the numbers themselves. If you want the numbers and the work they put into compiling that data, pay for it. Otherwise, move on. It's that simple and there's no discussion to be had here
Doesn't make his statement any less true. Transparency is great, but it comes at a cost.You are supporting a person who literally use number to push his agenda of ps fanboyism while calling others who wanted transparency regarding sales of gaming industry being brainless?
Probably you should reconsider who here who dont have a working brain i suppose.
Doesn't make his statement any less true. Transparency is great, but it comes at a cost.
There are organizations and parties involved using their own resources to collect information, it is entirely up to them whether they choose to release them or not. Your idealistic view of companies being completely transparent is unrealistic if for nothing else than strategic reasons. Transparency can also do a lot of to fuel speculation, the unfounded, and lead to a lot of feedback based on irrationality. I'm not against less information for the public in any way, but I understand why companies do what they do, and I believe they have the right to do that, if they have a claim to it. A company isn't obligated to tell the public regularly about how their products are performing. The people that need to know are privy to that info and if the company is public, their financial records are readily available. You're arguing that they should, i'm saying they don't have to and I understand if they don't ( for good reasons and bad).The only thing true from Abriael statement is it shows how hypocrite he was. Transparency is there so us consumer and possible investor knows the climate of the industry we love and follow.
The moment they begin to censor or hide info there. Is the moment those big company can make bullish statement without us knowing whether what the hell they are spewing is true or not.