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AI in Videogames
- Thread starter Spider-Man
- Start date
With all the progress in AI recently, I'm still wondering why the game industry still has such low AI in their games. They could easily use machine learning to make it more intelligent, like that Alpha Go Zero AI, which beats every human in Go. Of course you'd have to use a much lower AI or restrict it in learning so the AI doesn't become too strong in games, heh.
The terrible A.I ruined the last of us for me. It was completely immersion breaking. Everytime I'd come up to an area with enemies I'd try to be all stealthy then I'd look over and see Emmie leaping around in front of the zombie things like a drunk ballerina. Shame really. I would have finished it if it had been better
Makes sense, and it was very effective. That was one of the reasons I said that (Trico not responding all the time and needing different ways to correctly order him to do something).
I know what you mean OP. It was one of my wishes for this generation of consoles, along with 1080p and 60fps. Graphics already look stunning and I could take a hit on them progressing for a generation to improve how you interact with games rather than how they look. It would further immersion and add so much to the experience on the whole. It is obviously very difficult to achieve but you would think the people working on games would love to push themselves to deliver that. Their superiors will have the power to make them focus on whatever they deem necessary to achieve sales however.
With 4K now here and already people talking about the next evolution of that then sadly it just seems to be the goal the industry works towards by and large, visuals are everything when it comes to drawing in consumers. You only have to look at the games that the top of the charts here in the UK to gauge what the majority of people desire, at least over here. That is not to detract from the stellar games that are coming out these days though, quality will always find a way.
With 4K now here and already people talking about the next evolution of that then sadly it just seems to be the goal the industry works towards by and large, visuals are everything when it comes to drawing in consumers. You only have to look at the games that the top of the charts here in the UK to gauge what the majority of people desire, at least over here. That is not to detract from the stellar games that are coming out these days though, quality will always find a way.
I think some games get close, or at least have improved massively. Compared old PS2/Xbox GTA games to GTA V. A couple of generations ago the police would magically know where you were and would just fire there cars at you like missiles, ignoring pretty much all of the physics that the player was subject too. In GTA V, even under a high wanted level, the police can go right past you and still not see you, they leave their cars, mount searches and so on. It's so much better.
Plus the animation. It's not strictly AI but the Euphoria animation system Rockstar introduced in GTA IV and kept in GTA V makes a huge difference. It helps makes the world more believable all round.
Yup. At the other en do the scale of 'stable' you have Bethesda. I love the Elder Scrolls and Fallout games, and kudos to Bethesda, Fallout 4 is the most stable game they've ever put out, but there are so many variations of circumstances that they are patching their games for months and months after release.
This didn't bother me to so much as it was the game trying to help you and not break the illusion. I'm sure I read that when you were in stealth, Ellie was effectively invisible and this was because it was too complicated for her to always be able to find a suitable hiding place (and not block you), dependant on what you (the player) was going to do next.
Well, that's not really what's meant though. You can already have "amazing" AI that will win every single time, with perfect precision. I think we're talking about more human-like AI, sure, but human-like AI that can still make mistakes like a human.
The caveat in stealth games in particular is that AI that makes mistakes is also AI that doesn't behave predictably. This was the sticking point in Thief 4's development. Stealth players tend to obsess over patterns. If the AI has any kind of fuzzing, that breaks the player's ability to predict its behavior.
A good example of this problem is trying to sneak up behind enemies to interrogate them in a typical game. What many developers do is ensure NPCs never turn 180 degrees. They usually turn 90 degrees. This prevents them turning around and seeing the player as the player tries to sneak up on them.
Why do these discussions always tend to revolve around shooters and enemies? I think genres like grand strategy, immersive sims, roguelikes, and such have way more potential and have progressed much more than shooters have, in terms of AI. Consider the emergent complexity of characters in Rimworld and Dwarf Fortress, or the feuds of Crusader Kings 2, or Rain World's ecosystem and Prey's mimics
It's called unpredictable Alien and for me it's the only way to play. Especially since the alien actually shows up less frequently, but less predictable. It also introduces a certain element of chance which puts a bigger emphasis on being prepared.
First of all , how are we determining what is low AI and what is high AI . All games have different AI requirements and it would be impossible to categorize them in such way.
A good AI should make you feel alive in the game,make game more immersive. Most posts in thread doesnt quite get AI i would presume because nobody would say game is bad/hard if enemies went cover,group and attack you from behind etc or your AI partner doing those things.
Open world games are huge barren in terms of activity. A help from AI would solve all this.
Thanks! I feel lame, but I like the sound of the alien showing up less. Or just, not knowing where I am even when it doesn't, you know?
The problem with the standard Alien AI is the blatant cheating of the second AI (the leash). It becomes obvious just after a few hours into the game and for me nearly ruined the entire game.
It becomes grating and more of a nuisance than an actual actor. To me, that is the worst design sin when creating a nemesis.
Also the game doesn't really get easier, as the scripted triggers are still there, so the intense scenes are still there, and if you mess up, the Alien is still as adept at sniffing you out, even without cheating.
You might want to check out ECHO.
It's all about enemies learning from your actions and using them against you, so you have to think a few steps ahead whether shooting someone or running is a good idea cause the next cycle they'll get to use those moves.
In racing games the AI has not progressed at all it seems. In fact, in some cases it went backwards. In the latest F1 game from Codemasters it's clear that all the AI drivers are stuck on a set driving line. This becomes very obvious when there's a couple of cars following eachother closely, they will make for a perfect train.
I always wondered: would it not be possible to program the AI to behave more like a real driver? Instead of being car models that are animated on the track they would be giving steering input to make a corner and same for braking and accelerating. Then give them a 'time to react' and randomize that. So maybe the AI will start braking for a corner between 100-130 meters before it. You could multiply these values with a 'driver skill level number', so the better the AI driver, the less chance it has to make mistakes.
I'm sure it is possible, but it's probably a lot of work and very CPU demanding when you have to make these calculations every tenth of a second for every AI driver on track.
I always wondered: would it not be possible to program the AI to behave more like a real driver? Instead of being car models that are animated on the track they would be giving steering input to make a corner and same for braking and accelerating. Then give them a 'time to react' and randomize that. So maybe the AI will start braking for a corner between 100-130 meters before it. You could multiply these values with a 'driver skill level number', so the better the AI driver, the less chance it has to make mistakes.
I'm sure it is possible, but it's probably a lot of work and very CPU demanding when you have to make these calculations every tenth of a second for every AI driver on track.
Is sophisticated AI even something we want? It depends on the genre I guess.
Personally, I prefer my FPS foes to be of the idiot canon fodder variety. I don't want to engage in a protracted game of cat-and-mouse with a Machiavellian master of combat. Just come at me, bro!
Personally, I prefer my FPS foes to be of the idiot canon fodder variety. I don't want to engage in a protracted game of cat-and-mouse with a Machiavellian master of combat. Just come at me, bro!
This is all in pCARS2 and the ai is far from great. Assetto Corsa has added traction mistakes that needs the ai to correct oversteer,msometimes spinning out, then trying to rejoin the race without causing a crash. But many other things destroy this illusion like how often this happens in cars that need more slip-angle /oversteer to be fast like 60s F1 cars. Forza's Drivatar's involve actual machine learning algorithms but there are so many problems (feedback for example, a friend crahses, his drivatar crashes more often, it bumps into you, you drive more aggressive bcause of this, meaning your drivatar also drives less fair on a frind's console). Then there is the issue of making the Ai faster and slower for different players, where does the ai lose the time, spnning, crashing, driving bad lines, braking too early, being too slow mid-corner, having more drag, driving with less yaw-angle? And don't get me started on multi-class racing AI - super hard to make faster ai cars overtake slower ai cars in a realistic fashion without losing too much.
Totally agree. AI in most games right now is actually just a bag of cheap tricks to give off the illusion of intelligence, and not AI in the 'machine learning' sense. I think the only game I've seen (outside of game-playing AI) employing actual AI is Galak-Z. But the general goal of "making enemies that shoot smarter" is so tunnel-vision that it deprives us from exploring more compelling applications of machine learning within games. For e.g. a more interesting application of AI might be actively managing your inventory in an RPG based on your game interactions. Or a system that can analyze car dynamics in a Gran Turismo race to more fairly or accurately award or take away SR points (you can tell I have a concern here =). Many of these applications would be more about 'surrounding' elements than directly affecting immediate gameplay, and many of them could be offloaded to a server to address their resource-heaviness.
Once you can understand and begin to imagine the possibilities for applications of AI, the question of 'do we want AI that is smarter in games' becomes irrelevant or moot.
I'd also love to see gamers discern more between different fields in the conversation: there are the 'simple' non-learning algorithms currently used in most games, then there's AI, which involves actual machine learning, and there's artificial life (AL) or emergent systems which are more about achieving complexity from simple beginning behaviors. Procedural generation systems also fall under the emergent systems category.
This is less about AI than a procedural system that generates and maintains driver characteristics and parameters to operate in some (possibly AI-driven, but not necessarily) driving model. The system would need to really flesh out the different aspects that make up 'human failings' and feed them to the general 'driver' program.
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I see no mention of S.T.A.L.K.E.R. A-life on the thread and that makes me sad.
Enemies that focus on breaking line of sight (going as far as using tall grass), use stealth, flank and creeping towards the player, ambushes, suppresing fire, looting dead teammates, and more.
Prone to bugs? Absolutely, but when it works, it works like no other games (with the possible exception of F.E.A.R.)
Another thing to consider is that unless the player is specificaly paying attention to behaviours, they don't notice AI that much during combat.
For example, people say that stealth on Far Cry 1/2 are bad and the AI always know where you are, but if you stop and spend a good time observing you see that it actually works. I've forgotten how many times I thought I've clean a place only to get shot in the back by some creeping fuck hiding around or to start fights, move around and find guys looking for me near my previous position (not last know position, but rather close to it).
Enemies that focus on breaking line of sight (going as far as using tall grass), use stealth, flank and creeping towards the player, ambushes, suppresing fire, looting dead teammates, and more.
Prone to bugs? Absolutely, but when it works, it works like no other games (with the possible exception of F.E.A.R.)
Another thing to consider is that unless the player is specificaly paying attention to behaviours, they don't notice AI that much during combat.
For example, people say that stealth on Far Cry 1/2 are bad and the AI always know where you are, but if you stop and spend a good time observing you see that it actually works. I've forgotten how many times I thought I've clean a place only to get shot in the back by some creeping fuck hiding around or to start fights, move around and find guys looking for me near my previous position (not last know position, but rather close to it).
My guess is that people are just more impressed by AI that responds in real time under the illusion of being another player. In turn based games the AI is basically asleep until it's its turn then it just responds to all the input at once. In other games the AI is clearly acting as the world and not as an individual agent in it. In an FPS people get the sense that the single target they are firing at is an agent of AI, and it has to respond immediately as the character continues to act. It's like fighting a Terminator instead of HAL 9000.
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I mentioned STALKER, but never mentioned A-Life on the last page.
Honestly, I like how they implemented "life scheduling" much more than Bethesda with their Radiant AI system. It's much more reactive and believable, especially on Call of Chernobyl with the Warfare mod, where you can essentially help any faction you want take control of literally every map in the series. At least every single human NPC has a unique name, and stays the whole save game, unlike Bethesda's "load generic unnamed NPC, then delete and forget when away" style of doing that.
Demis Hassabis was a fascinating developer to follow back in the day, his work with the first black and white game really blew my mind. He quit game developing though after elixir studios failed hard with Evil Genius and Republic. But man, I felt like he kind of created something special with the way your creature would behave and learn in the first Black and White game, I loved that shit. It's not all that advanced today, but back then it was amazing.
Uh.. source for this?
As someone who actually writes pathing algorithms, this makes no real sense. It's very easy to simplify geometry for AI use, if that was ever a requirement.
But wouldn't untethering the alien lead to possibly having it left behind in one area while you run and complete the game risk free? The space station is huge
And if it still moves the alien to each sector you are in, it's not really untethered is it?
svartknnowshowtoread,exe stopped working
>_>
But yeah, S.T.A.L.K.E.R. was ahead in so many ways.
I read in the past that the alien has two "brains". One knows where you are at all times, and the other controls the alien's behavior and actions. Sometimes the brain that knows where you are clues the other brain in. I assume this mod just eliminates that part. The alien still stalks around. It just can't slowly cheat anymore. I think. I haven't used the mod yet.
Yeah, but I'm not sure if it was abrupt enough to notice. It might have been a really gradual change.
I think you would like MGS V then. I always sniped from afar with non-lethal bullets. The moe I used this tactic, soldiers adapted to my playstyle and began using reinforced helmets. Same if you go guns blazing. It is truly one of my fondest memories this gen, which forced me to adapt to overcome the challenge.
Woah, I legit didn't know MGS could do that. I only played through Ground Zeroes once and trying some challenges, never noticed any such behaviour or knew about what happens in the full game. Seems pretty interesting, I'll probably pick it up on sale sometime next year after this crazy end of the year finishes. Is the ending as grindy as some people say?
What ending?[/QUOTE]
Not sure if ironic, but I heard the second part of the game is really grindy with all the base building, waiting for timers, gathering resources and such.
Everytime i read something about AI it gives me shivers.
Did you guys see the AI that was created by a group of Elon Musk and showed during the Internationals 17 (biggest Dota 2 Tournament)
The AI was able to learn the Game and beat one of the best Midlane Players in Dota 2 just in a few Minutes - all by itself.
Did you guys see the AI that was created by a group of Elon Musk and showed during the Internationals 17 (biggest Dota 2 Tournament)
The AI was able to learn the Game and beat one of the best Midlane Players in Dota 2 just in a few Minutes - all by itself.
If you want to complete it at 100% then yes, is pretty grindy, the game adds a weird tower defense mechanic with a big emphasis on micro-management, but thankfully all these stuff are optional iirc.
I've worked some bit on AI for games, and I personally think that the greatest challenge is actually to make something that behave in a "believable" way, human or not.
It's really cheap (on processing time) to make an AI that cheats and use game information or other things not available for the player. And it can be really expensive to make one that "simulate" human behavior, so usually developers save resources for other stuff that helps sell the game, like graphics.
It's also super hard to review an human-like AI, if it makes a mistake, you have to consider: "is that believable?", or if it makes something really impressive: "Is this frustrating/super-human?".
Anyway, it's really hard to make a good AI.
It's really cheap (on processing time) to make an AI that cheats and use game information or other things not available for the player. And it can be really expensive to make one that "simulate" human behavior, so usually developers save resources for other stuff that helps sell the game, like graphics.
It's also super hard to review an human-like AI, if it makes a mistake, you have to consider: "is that believable?", or if it makes something really impressive: "Is this frustrating/super-human?".
Anyway, it's really hard to make a good AI.
There's some repetition. Some of the Chapter 2 missions are replays of Chapter 1 missions, with additional challenge. I avoided all the online stuff, btw. Never even agreed to their terms of service. Anyway, if you like to play the game, it's no big deal. If you want the insane, melodramatic, anime-esque story like in MGS4, you're going to be disappointed.
Great game though. My GOTY, maybe GOTG. Depending on which G you're talking about.
Last great game AI was ESIV: Oblivion (despite issues) before that it was F.E.A.R. Unfortunately, AI isnt a priority in video games today.