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Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,881
Finland
Horrible situation all around. I'm sorry for Quinn because of the assault and hopefully she isn't feeling guilt about coming forward. I'm sorry for the attacks she is receiving over this. I I'm sorry for Holowka's loved ones and I appreciate the people who were supporting him and helping him in his struggles. Even people who do wrong need people who don't abandon them, to get better. It's incredibly hard alone, they can need empathy too. I'm sorry for Holowka for the abuse he went through and sorry it ended this way, when it seemed like things were improving.

There's many discussions to be had relating to this incident, but not only this. Just not sure if this is the right time for it and it should be done in more general sense, not just around these specific people.

Edit: detuned radios I appreciate your involvement in the thread.
 
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Deleted member 1238

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,070
My ultimate takeaway from this is that we need to be better. I've said that in a lot of threads this year, and each time I say it I fear that we never will be.

Let me make this clear: Zoe was right to speak up. This is not her fault. I am not saying that there shouldn't be consequences for Alec's actions. There were people who didn't want to work or associate with him after these accusations. That's perfectly fine. What I'm saying is that those of us on the sideline didn't need to make it worse. We can support victims without repeatedly calling someone a "monster" or "piece of shit." I know he did a bad thing. Maybe I'm just too ideal in believing that two wrongs don't make a right. Standing with the victim while refraining from forming a hate mob around the accused are not mutually exclusive stances. I just wish more people realized that.

Jesus this is sad.

We have to figure out a way to support victims and hold abusers accountable, while also simultaneously heavily pushing healing and rehabilitation for both victims and perpetrators.

These things cannot be mutually exclusive. Our culture online is falling way short in such cases.
You said it better than me!
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,780
Your friends and family don't know shit then. Less than 1% of sexual assaults lead to felony convictions. Sounds like it works real great yeah?

Fuck off with this garbage.

If you cannot discuss in a mature manner, then please don't bother responding to me.

Thank you for the stat. It is a US study, and I live in Canada.

Injustice occurs in Canada also.
 
Oct 27, 2017
551
I find it sad that Zoe didn't mention anything about Alec's previous experience as a victim or his mental health issues, you would think she would have considering she's a huge advocate for victims and knows exactly how shitty mass harassment can be. It's definitely better for victims to come forward but I don't think she fully thought about the effect it would have by tweeting it out to her massive following.
I know you're banned but fuck you and the horse you rode in on
 

fertygo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,554
I feel really bad and afraid for Zoe right now.. and maybe all other female / devs that tweeted support.

Fuck all those shitass that tried to guilt thip.
 

Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,809
Tragic situation. Hopefully Alec found some sort of peace in the end and his family has time to grieve offline.

As far as "cancel culture" goes I am 100% not in the Chappelle camp. It imperfect but so is the criminal justice system and overall culture that allows this behavior to fester. In these fucked up situations there is sadly no ideal solution. Hopefully in the future companies/institutions will act after a simple HR report and won't need large amounts of public pressure to force their hands.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,891
Just from reading a couple of comment sections online, I can tell that this is going to fuck Zoe Quinn's life up. Like, I'm not referencing the comments sections from bottom of the barrel sites, I'm talking some of the biggest most mainstreams sites (like IGN).

It seems like many people have decided that Zoe was lying and they are accusing her of being directly responsible for his death. This lady is going to more than likely be hit with another full on harassment campaign.

This situation is fucked.
 

iareharSon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,939
Conversations like this need to be handled with nuance, and unfortunately nuance is something that society at large lacks with respect to subjects like this.

The fact of the matter is that society and the institutions that are supposedly in place to protect us are fundamentally broken. Abusers rarely pay for their crimes, and the abused are rarely given the justice they deserve. The #MeToo movement was born out of the ashes of a fundamentally flawed system. It would be fantastic if victims could go to the authorities, and the process played out in a way where you wouldn't have better luck winning big at the casino than seeing your abuser pay for their crimes. But that's not the reality we live in, and until we do, victims have every right to utilize any methods they see fit to receive the justice they deserve. Zoe was a victim and she was perfectly justified in how she handled this, and while I'm sure she's mentally and emotionally suffering from the end result of those efforts, she's not to blame for anything.

The fact that Alec was a victim of abuse and suffered from mental health issues should be a part of the discourse, but it should not absolve or even soften the severity of how we view the heinous acts that he committed. The only reason it should be a part of the conversation is because the subjects of mental health and the effects on victims of abuse are completely worthwhile topics, and it's worth understanding the underlying root causes of monstrous acts like this so that we as a society can work towards mitigating it in the future. But the empathy should end there. Abusers deserve to pay for their crimes; and whether that's legal punishment, public scrutiny, a hit to the trajectory of their livelihood, etc - some or all of these things need to happen because we can't operate in a society where abusers are allowed to jump freely from victim to victim completely unscathed. I'll be the first to say that there's a severe lack of rehabilitation in how we deal with guilty parties, and it certainly makes bad situations worse. But don't get it twisted. Rehabilitation should be a part of the punishment process, it shouldn't be the punishment in itself. The fact that he was working with professionals to tackle his past and mental health issues is great, as is the fact that he seemingly apologized to Zoe for his heinous acts. But he never truly had to answer for his crimes, and that's why the #MeToo movement - while not ideal - serves such an integral role in helping society move the needle when it comes to this culture of abuse that's gone under the radar for too long. It's one of the few tools that victims have in their arsenal, and if there's one thing victims of abuse don't need, it's to lower the volume of their voice more so than it already is - which is why cries for the abolition of cancel culture and online social justice are so overwhelmingly misguided.

But as people have said, this is a thoroughly terrible situation. There are no winners. While Alec was certainly at fault for some monstrous acts, he did not deserve to die. No matter the circumstances preceding it, it's always a sad day when someone considers their own death to be an ideal outcome. So RIP to Alec, and my condolences to his friends and family.

And to Zoe, all I can say is to be strong, keep your head up, and ignore any notions of blame in all of this. I wish I believed otherwise, but I know she's going to be on the receiving end of an onslaught of harassment from a cesspool of evil degenerate assholes.
 

Wintermute

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,051
So i checked the threadmark and it's saying the tweet is unavailable, is this confirmed?

for reference here's the tweet. alec's sister has made her account private. added spoiler tags in case people find it distressing.

nIZNFq8.png
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,261
What is due process exactly going to do in this situation specifically?

His sister... kind of alluded to him committing these crimes.

So he's guilty of imprisonment/kidnapping, assault, and sexual assault/rape and gets 10-20 years in the reporting to the police route.

Does this go any better for him.

Yeah, this. I genuinely don't know how people think this would go if instead of tweets about what he did, we got articles all over gaming sites about him getting arrested (complete with mugshot) for these crimes.

Unless you think he just wouldn't have gotten bail and would be on 24/7 watch. Which, for those of y'all not familiar with how these things typically go for not-celebrities, is unlikely.
 

Haubergeon

Member
Jan 22, 2019
2,269
at this point i genuinely believe it would be best if we banned all discussion of game devs' personal affairs from this forum because it is clear too many people on era cannot handle this shit in a reasonable way. it's a tragedy that alec's victims had to make this a public issue to get anything done about it because the internet at large lacks the humanity to not just harass and ridicule and insult everyone involved, right up until shit like this happens.

zoe, alec, and everyone else's lives are not a fucking soap opera for us to watch with popcorn in hand, rooting for our favorite teams and hooting and hollering at every new twist and turn. they are human beings dealing with complex personal issues that we know very little about other than what is presented to us (which is very little). era culture has reached the point where, in an attempt to project "wokeness", too many of us are treating other people's lives with all the delicacy of an internet console war argument. even now, in this very thread, after everything that's happened.

most of you didn't know alec. most of you don't know zoe. we're all just random people on the internet engaging in voyeurism over some shit that frankly was not and is not our fucking business. stop ripping each other's throats out about it and leave everyone involved alone.

I think it's important for people to go public on their abusers when its clear the systems set up to "officially" deal with these things is woefully inadequate, so it should be clearly stated Zoe did nothing wrong here - it sucks that this is yet another chapter in her life people will go after her on and something that will haunt her forever, now.

I agree with this post overall though because - how do I state this correctly? - the personal investedness people have in these sorts of things is odd and often contributes to an incredibly hostile tone that doesn't really accomplish anything? Like, people are in this thread talking about how Twitter is so harmful and should be deleted or whatever, and that's right on - Twitter's administration is repulsive and social media is a nightmare if you care about anything seriously - but people in these threads that post nothing but insults or talking about how people are pieces of shit, or other comments of that kind of tone, just don't help anyone in exactly the same vein. These discussions should be guided in the direction of defending the victim, the way people treat a lot of these threads as a kind of crude form of entertainment, or as a way to get aggression out on safe targets, it's just not productive at all, it's not helping anyone, which is what we should be talking about - how to help Zoe, help victims, help them seek justice, find ways to fix the systems that are broken.

Like, I don't think Zoe's goal here was to harass the guy, or have mobs of people follow him around and call him any of a different list of insults you could think of. She knows what that's like. So I hope these events, if nothing else, can remind people of how severely wrong these topics can go. Ultimately people who struggle with mental illness are still responsible for their own actions, so this doesn't absolve him or place the blame on anyone here, it's just that I hope these discussions in the future can focus on the right things. Yes, publicly expose abuse when systems and power structures, official and unofficial, fail to defend victims - just try to be a mature adult when talking about it, too. These threads should continue to exist as a means to raise awareness about public figures, it's legitimately newsworthy - there just has to be a way to stay focused on the right things. These are all real people, and they're not our personal lives, nor should they be dehumanized into just ways for us to score points or win arguments.
 

Deleted member 6733

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,441
User banned (3 weeks): highly inflammatory accusations against the community, ignoring staff post
Christ, that's shitty. Glad he's being put on full blast, and I hope he gets what's coming.

Just seeing this on the first page made me feels sick. People of Resetera have played their part in this tragedy. Whether the allegations were real or not, this mob culture has to stop. Anyone could be accused of wrongdoing and find their life destroyed, regardless of truth. That could easily be you or a loved one. And places like this site and Twitter perpetuate that. Victims should be believed but public lynching and life destroying is taking it too far. You are not the judge, jury and executioner. Is it right that someone's life can be destroyed by an allegation? No, it's not.

And with that (likely going to be banned for speaking my mind anyway), I think I'm done with gaming forums, especially this one.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
My ultimate takeaway from this is that we need to be better. I've said that in a lot of threads this year, and each time I say it I fear that we never will be.

Let me make this clear: Zoe was right to speak up. This is not her fault. I am not saying that there shouldn't be consequences for Alec's actions. There were people who didn't want to work or associate with him after these accusations. That's perfectly fine. What I'm saying is that those of us on the sideline didn't need to make it worse. We can support victims without repeatedly calling someone a "monster" or "piece of shit." I know he did a bad thing. Maybe I'm just too ideal in believing that two wrongs don't make a right. Standing with the victim while refraining from forming a hate mob around the accused are not mutually exclusive stances. I just wish more people realized that.


You said it better than me!

whatever your intentions, I'll admit I have a hard time seeing how establishing "we should be very careful what we say about sex abusers out of concern for their well-being" as a valid principle doesn't end up leading to chilling effects on victims and other people in the industry who want to support them
 

Racerprose

Banned
Aug 26, 2019
119
What I take away from this is that its obvious sometimes these people who are abusers often have their own mental issues and are suffering and thus take it out on others. This is not a defense, but simply it does happen.

Zoe obviously has her issues too. Again, not victim blaming. Both of them are victims.
 

Cerulean_skylark

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,408
Just seeing this on the first page made me feels sick. People of Resetera have played their part in this tragedy. Whether the allegations were real or not, this mob culture has to stop. Anyone could be accused of wrongdoing and find their life destroyed, regardless of truth. That could easily be you or a loved one. And places like this site and Twitter perpetuate that. Victims should be believed but public lynching and life destroying is taking it too far. You are not the judge, jury and executioner. Is it right that someone's life can be destroyed by an allegation? No, it's not.

And with that (likely going to be banned for speaking my mind anyway), I think I'm done with gaming forums, especially this one.

Resetera played their part by publishing credible allegations of a public figure and believing the victims?
Resetera didn't sexually assault someone. Resetera didn't write a tell all.
 

Gush

Member
Nov 17, 2017
2,096
If you cannot discuss in a mature manner, then please don't bother responding to me.

Thank you for the stat. It is a US study, and I live in Canada.

Injustice occurs in Canada also.

I also live in Canada and I'm well aware, moreso than you I'd assume given your previous posts.

If you don't like my tone you should put more effort into your posts that suggest things which are wildly and irresponsibility out of touch.
 

Velg

Member
Jan 6, 2018
498
User Banned (2 Weeks): Inflammatory Accusations Over Multiple Posts; Ignoring Staff Post
Mob culture is terrible and it needs to stop. This place especially can be so guilty of it. Believe the victims but don't destroy a life in the process. RIP dude. What a sad thing to end your life over.
 

KernelC

alt account
Banned
Aug 28, 2019
3,561
User Banned (3 Days): Ignoring Staff Post
Whether the allegations were real or not, this mob culture has to stop.
I try to stay away from commenting on controversial topics but this is something I've noticed in Era since before I made my account. The mob mentality helps no one
 

iareharSon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,939
My ultimate takeaway from this is that we need to be better. I've said that in a lot of threads this year, and each time I say it I fear that we never will be.

Let me make this clear: Zoe was right to speak up. This is not her fault. I am not saying that there shouldn't be consequences for Alec's actions. There were people who didn't want to work or associate with him after these accusations. That's perfectly fine. What I'm saying is that those of us on the sideline didn't need to make it worse. We can support victims without repeatedly calling someone a "monster" or "piece of shit." I know he did a bad thing. Maybe I'm just too ideal in believing that two wrongs don't make a right. Standing with the victim while refraining from forming a hate mob around the accused are not mutually exclusive stances. I just wish more people realized that.

Your ultimate takeaway is that we need to continue to support the #MeToo movement, but remove its fangs and cripple its effectiveness to give victims justice? Large swaths of people angrily demanding accountability in support of victims is the backbone of movements like this.
 

Velg

Member
Jan 6, 2018
498
I've been away for a few minutes so I guess I missed a development where it was revealed somebody murdered him.

Someone suffering from crippling depression? Maybe the hate and scorn of thousands of internet strangers could be enough? I don't know and you don't either so keep it to yourself maybe,
 

Ryutaryi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,069
This is such a horrible tragedy. Zoe was 100% right to have come out with these allegations and repercussions for Alec's actions should have been taken accordingly, but people reacting to what he did with abuse of their own was not and will never be okay. The way Infinite Fall handled the situation was the best they possibly could, and it's heartbreaking to see them suffer under the fall out of both the allegations and Alec's death.

"Hoping he gets what's coming" should have been help. It should have been a path to rehabilitation and ways to atone for a heinous act that could never be fully healed or forgiven. Social media and its ability to become attack dogs of verbal and emotional abuse on its own is horrifying and further dehumanizes those behind the screen. Zoe is a person. Alec is a person. This could have been handled without anonymous commenters slinging vitriol in both Zoe's and Alec's direction and fanning the flames of a situation they did not have all the context for. Mob justice is no justice at all, and the fire is self consuming.

Rest in peace, Alec. I can only hope that Zoe is able to recover from what happened to her and whatever abusive comments are still coming her way, and that Alec's sister and Infinite Fall can find any solace they can from this situation.
 

Shoozle

Banned
Dec 2, 2017
319
UK
I've only just checked out the music to Night in the Woods, and I really like it a lot. Wish I decided to check it out prior to finding out about his death. Sorry Alec. Lost a pretty great composer.
 

Terrysaur

Member
Jun 14, 2019
240
I think it's important for people to go public on their abusers when its clear the systems set up to "officially" deal with these things is woefully inadequate, so it should be clearly stated Zoe did nothing wrong here [...] the personal investedness people have in these sorts of things is odd and often contributes to an incredibly hostile tone that doesn't really accomplish anything? [...] Yes, publicly expose abuse when systems and power structures, official and unofficial, fail to defend victims - just try to be a mature adult when talking about it, too.

If anything should be taken from this thread from us fellow Resetera-ers, or whatever we want to call ourselves, it should be this and detuned ratio's post. It was really fucking uncomfortable reading half the replies in this thread even before Alec passed away, and a number of people here were personally attacked by fellow users, myself included, simply because they didn't conform with the psuedo-narrative that Alec was the irredeemable devil incarnate and/or Night in the Woods is now a bad game and shouldn't be played because of it. A certain group has had a field day as of late thanks to this thread and its related threads, and the people who run the site should take this opportunity to critically re-evaluate how best to deal with discussion about the personal affairs of developers.
 
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Bitmap Frogs

Banned
Sep 16, 2018
705
User Banned (permanent): Inflammatory Accusations Over Multiple Posts in this Thread; Ignoring Staff Post
This shit bums me out too and disgusts me. His death (And I'm assuming suicide) reeks of a manipulative behavior that I can't quite put into words right now. Alec has permanently altered the course of the #MeToo resurgence happening in games media and caused even more irreparable harm and damage to victims.

It fucking sucks man.

Wait seriously?

Holy fuck. Not a shred of humanity left in there.

Haven't y'all learned anything after Etika? STOP DOGPILING. Zoe accused him, you believe her? Then uninstall his games, unfollow on twitter, whatever. The whole woke circus that was this thread is unnecessary and inhumane.

And for the record, those of you making the argument that since he was a criminal he deserved the treatment he got, ITS THE SAME ARGUMENT REPUBLICANS MADE WHEN JUSTIFYING THE INHUMANE AND DRACONIAN INDUSTRIAL-PRISON COMPLEX.
 

Velg

Member
Jan 6, 2018
498
Are you saying Zoe Quinn should not have published her account of what happened to Alex?
No. She was right to tell her truth. It's the mob mentality that you see on here and Twitter that scares me. I don't know the answer. It's a delicate subject. Just sad a man who could've redeemed himself saw suicide as his only option
 

Prolepro

Ghostwire: BooShock
Banned
Nov 6, 2017
7,310
Obviously not the worst part of all of this, but this situation will be used as ammunition against MeToo and cancel culture, not that there was a shortage of fallacious arguments from the reactionary side to begin with.
 

Haubergeon

Member
Jan 22, 2019
2,269
Someone suffering from crippling depression? Maybe the hate and scorn of thousands of internet strangers could be enough? I don't know and you don't either so keep it to yourself maybe,

Someone suffering from mental illness does not and should not absolve them of any abuse they've inflicted on others.

If anything should be taken from this thread from us fellow Resetera-ers, or whatever we want to call ourselves, it should be this and detuned ratio's post. It was really fucking uncomfortable reading half the replies in this thread even before Alec passed away, and a number of people here were personally attacked by fellow users, myself included, simply because they didn't conform with the psuedo-narrative that Alec was the irredeemable devil incarnate and/or Night in the Woods is now a bad game and shouldn't be played because of it. [Mod Edit: removed link to twitter hate account] has had a field day as of late thanks to this thread and its related threads, and the people who run the site should take this opportunity to critically re-evaluate how best to deal with discussion about the personal affairs of developers.

Please don't link that twitter profile, nor use my post as a way to grant it any kind of traffic.
 
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Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Conversations like this need to be handled with nuance, and unfortunately nuance is something that society at large lacks with respect to subjects like this.

The fact of the matter is that society and the institutions that are supposedly in place to protect us are fundamentally broken. Abusers rarely pay for their crimes, and the abused are rarely given the justice they deserve. The #MeToo movement was born out of the ashes of a fundamentally flawed system. It would be fantastic if victims could go to the authorities, and the process played out in a way where you wouldn't have better luck winning big at the casino than seeing your abuser pay for their crimes. But that's not the reality we live in, and until we do, victims have every right to utilize any methods they see fit to receive the justice they deserve. Zoe was a victim and she was perfectly justified in how she handled this, and while I'm sure she's mentally and emotionally suffering from the end result of those efforts, she's not to blame for anything.

The fact that Alec was a victim of abuse and suffered from mental health issues should be a part of the discourse, but it should not absolve or even soften the severity of how we view the heinous acts that he committed. The only reason it should be a part of the conversation is because the subjects of mental health and the effects on victims of abuse are completely worthwhile topics, and it's worth understanding the underlying root causes of monstrous acts like this so that we as a society can work towards mitigating it in the future. But the empathy should end there. Abusers deserve to pay for their crimes; and whether that's legal punishment, public scrutiny, a hit to the trajectory of their livelihood, etc - some or all of these things need to happen because we can't operate in a society where abusers are allowed to jump freely from victim to victim completely unscathed. I'll be the first to say that there's a severe lack of rehabilitation in how we deal with guilty parties, and it certainly makes bad situations worse. But don't get it twisted. Rehabilitation should be a part of the punishment process, it shouldn't be the punishment in itself. The fact that he was working with professionals to tackle his past and mental health issues is great, as is the fact that he seemingly apologized to Zoe for his heinous acts. But he never truly had to answer for his crimes, and that's why the #MeToo movement - while not ideal - serves such an integral role in helping society move the needle when it comes to this culture of abuse that's gone under the radar for too long. It's one of the few tools that victims have in their arsenal, and if there's one thing victims of abuse don't need, it's to lower the volume of their voice more so than it already is - which is why cries for the abolition of cancel culture and online social justice are so overwhelmingly misguided.

But as people have said, this is a thoroughly terrible situation. There are no winners. While Alec was certainly at fault for some monstrous acts, he did not deserve to die. No matter the circumstances preceding it, it's always a sad day when someone considers their own death to be an ideal outcome. So RIP to Alec, and my condolences to his friends and family.

And to Zoe, all I can say is to be strong, keep your head up, and ignore any notions of blame in all of this. I wish I believed otherwise, but I know she's going to be on the receiving end of an onslaught of harassment from a cesspool of evil degenerate assholes.
Pretty much all that needs to be said.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,891
Just seeing this on the first page made me feels sick. People of Resetera have played their part in this tragedy. Whether the allegations were real or not, this mob culture has to stop. Anyone could be accused of wrongdoing and find their life destroyed, regardless of truth. That could easily be you or a loved one. And places like this site and Twitter perpetuate that. Victims should be believed but public lynching and life destroying is taking it too far. You are not the judge, jury and executioner. Is it right that someone's life can be destroyed by an allegation? No, it's not.

And with that (likely going to be banned for speaking my mind anyway), I think I'm done with gaming forums, especially this one.

It is important to remember that the incident with Zoe wasn't an isolated one. In fact, he was actively being abusive towards one of his coworkers up until everything went public. He was a serial abuser and it was important that this be made publicly known so that he could be held accountable and so that the cycle of abuse could be broken. Him committing suicide is extremely unfortunate. He was clearly struggling with his own demons. However, the abuse had to be stopped and publicly speaking out was quite possibly the only way to stop it. Those comments were calling for an end to the abuse, not an end to the man's life. This is a unfortunate situation, but I am not convinced there was ever a clear path to resolving it any other way.

It seems like you are taking this really hard. I think that is probably a sign of empathy. However, I don't think you are fully considering the series of events as they unfolded. It is a tragedy, that we can all agree on. However, this tragedy started LONG before this incident ever became public and it involved a laundry list of victims.
 

DaSorcerer7

Member
Oct 26, 2017
151
Uk
User banned (1 month): Inflammatory accusations; ignoring a staff post, account in junior phase
Just seeing this on the first page made me feels sick. People of Resetera have played their part in this tragedy. Whether the allegations were real or not, this mob culture has to stop. Anyone could be accused of wrongdoing and find their life destroyed, regardless of truth. That could easily be you or a loved one. And places like this site and Twitter perpetuate that. Victims should be believed but public lynching and life destroying is taking it too far. You are not the judge, jury and executioner. Is it right that someone's life can be destroyed by an allegation? No, it's not.

And with that (likely going to be banned for speaking my mind anyway), I think I'm done with gaming forums, especially this one.

Well said.
 
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