Alfie Evans case

danowat · Apr 25, 2018

It's a pretty tough situation all round really, and it's easy to stand on the outside and decide what the right thing to do is.

I don't think you know how you'd react in that situation until you experience it, and I can understand why the parents are acting like they are, but I'd like to think that in a similar situation I'd be able to accept the doctors opinion, are the parents doing this for the boy?, or themselves?.

Even if they did manage to prolong his life, what kind of quality of life would he have?.

Also, the amount of abuse the hospital staff, and the way people have, and are, acting outside the hospital is pretty unforgivable, there are sick children in that place, and the staff dedicate their lives to helping them, it's no way to treat them.

Broken Joystick · Apr 25, 2018

Just been sent some "undercover" recording that the hospital is covering something up, cue to me reading Facebook comments, something about pharmaceutical companies paying Alder Hay billions to do some tests on him which explains his bruises.

Christ almighty.

Another comment suggesting that 100,000 people should turn up at the hospital and take the child by force.

FeliciaFelix · Apr 25, 2018

Wow, people put down dogs with more mercy than this. How long can that go on, life as a brainless vegetable? Sounds dystopian

Tito · Apr 25, 2018

This case is ridiculous, it's not like the parents are asking for money or something, just let them take their son wherever they want; if the hospital has given up and don't want to continue treatment, then the father should have every right to take the son from there and go with him wherever the fuck he wants.

Stupid burocrats trying to kill him, first disconnecting him and now starving him.

Infuriating case.

Geoff · Apr 25, 2018

Tito said:
This case is ridiculous, it's not like the parents are asking for money or something, just let them take their son wherever they want; if the hospital has given up and don't want to continue treatment, then the father should have every right to take the son from there and go with him wherever the fuck he wants.

Stupid burocrats trying to kill him, first disconnecting him and now starving him.

Infuriating case.

lol

electroshockwave · Apr 25, 2018

KennyLinder said:
They should give the parents the support they want, including taking him to Italy if they think it will help. I can't imagine being in that situation with my daughter, I'd do everything in my power to save her life.

Gotta feel for the parents. Very sad case.

What life does this child have to save?

Coxy · Apr 25, 2018

Ianan said:
I can't say for sure about those specific claims, but a lot of that has been going on.

Video:
Protestors attempt to storm the hospital
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-43867132

Video:
Scenes outside the hospital with the protestors blocking the road and abusing passers.
http://metro.co.uk/video/alfie-evans-protest-mob-block-road-outside-hospital-1674996/?ito=vjs-link

These protestors a bunch of idiots and a disgrace to the memory of this boy.

Absolute bunch of idiots (the protesters) blocking a hospital?! It must be scary for any genuine users of the hospital trying to get by those people. Also hitting a car as it drove by - what?!

danowat · Apr 25, 2018

Tito said:
This case is ridiculous, it's not like the parents are asking for money or something, just let them take their son wherever they want; if the hospital has given up and don't want to continue treatment, then the father should have every right to take the son from there and go with him wherever the fuck he wants.

Stupid burocrats trying to kill him, first disconnecting him and now starving him.

Infuriating case.

Because it's tantamount to child abuse.

CrazyAndy · Apr 25, 2018

If my son was brain dead and there was no chance of recovery I wouldn't want him to be in a state like this. But I am not a father so it's hard to judge. I can't even imagine what the parents must be going through.

Ianan · Apr 25, 2018

Tito said:
This case is ridiculous, it's not like the parents are asking for money or something.

Not sure if it counts as "asking for money", but there is a fundraiser up with well over £100k in donations so far.
https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/sarah-evans-791

Blue Sky Noise · Apr 25, 2018

A lot of self-appointed experts with very shallow viewings of the situation, whipping themselves up into a mad conspirational frenzy. That is 'Alfie's Army'. I feel bad for the parents though, not because I agree with them but rather because it is a situation I cannot even imagine going through.

Tito · Apr 25, 2018

danowat said:
Because it's tantamount to child abuse.

Well yeah, it's much better to try to kill him by disconnecting him, and now that he breathes by himself, you have to starve him; more than 30 hours now. Great logic there.

Let the parents decide, not some armchair burocrat who have no empathy whatsoever. Let the kid go to Italy or Nigeria or wherever the fuck his parents want to take him, to get to doctors that want to try and save his life, and get away from the doctors that want to forcibly kill him.

If this hospital doesn't want to treat him, and there is another hospital that wants to, then take him there, end of story, I don't know why this is even a discussion.

Ianan said:
Not sure if it counts as "asking for money", but there is a fundraiser up with well over £100k in donations so far.
https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/sarah-evans-791

My bad, I was talking about asking for taxpayers money.

Puroresu_kid · Apr 25, 2018

I go with the experts but can't criticise parents fighting all they can for their child to live

Coxy · Apr 25, 2018

Tito said:
Well yeah, it's much better to try to kill him by disconnecting him, and now that he breathes by himself, you have to starve him; more than 30 hours now. Great logic there.

Let the parents decide, not some armchair burocrat who have no empathy whatsoever. Let the kid go to Italy or Nigeria or wherever the fuck his parents want to take him, to get to doctors that want to try and save his life, and get away from the doctors that want to forcibly kill him.

If this hospital doesn't want to treat him, and there is another hospital that wants to, then take him there, end of story, I don't know why this is even a discussion.

So we should ignore the experts ?

Deaf Spacker · Apr 25, 2018

Tito said:
This case is ridiculous, it's not like the parents are asking for money or something, just let them take their son wherever they want; if the hospital has given up and don't want to continue treatment, then the father should have every right to take the son from there and go with him wherever the fuck he wants.

Stupid burocrats trying to kill him, first disconnecting him and now starving him.

Infuriating case.

There is no treatment, Alfie is braindead and starving a patient is standard for EOL care.

Alfie's father is an absolute scumbag and I don't believe anything that comes out of his mouth.

The Alfie's Army muppets can fuck off as well.

danowat · Apr 25, 2018

Tito said:
Let the parents decide, not some armchair burocrat who have no empathy whatsoever. Let the kid go to Italy or Nigeria or wherever the fuck his parents want to take him, to get to doctors that want to try and save his life, and get away from the doctors that want to forcibly kill him..

They are medical professionals, not armchair bureaucrats.

What sort of life is there to save?.

HenrySwanson · Apr 25, 2018

Tito said:
This case is ridiculous, it's not like the parents are asking for money or something, just let them take their son wherever they want; if the hospital has given up and don't want to continue treatment, then the father should have every right to take the son from there and go with him wherever the fuck he wants.

Stupid burocrats trying to kill him, first disconnecting him and now starving him.

Infuriating case.

Are you saying the doctors are bureaucrats or the judiciary?

Doctor_Thomas · Apr 25, 2018

This is a case where the parents are doing everything to protect your child... but if medical experts are telling you something, you sometimes need to listen.

Doing what is kind and right isn't always easy.

Deaf Spacker · Apr 25, 2018

In fact, if Alfie's father, family and the Alfie's Army twats hadn't behaved so horrifically towards Alder Hey and the staff looking after Alfie, they might have been allowed to take him home yesterday.

The staff working there are legitimately shit scared of repercussions.

Stuart444 · Apr 25, 2018

Deaf Spacker said:
The staff working there are legitimately shit scared of repercussions.

And probably scared of what will happen when the kid passes.

HenrySwanson · Apr 25, 2018

Doctor_Thomas said:
This is a case where the parents are doing everything to protect your child... but if medical experts are telling you something, you sometimes need to listen.

Doing what is kind and right isn't always easy.

True, but then there's always the Ashya King case....

FlammableAce · Apr 25, 2018

A lot of people believe the hospital is trying to cover something up, the parents have already shown hospital records where they accidentally double dosed Alfie in 2017 before he deteriorated.

The hospital doesn't exactly have a good record either.

However, I don't agree with storming the hospital or chanting outside.

Deaf Spacker · Apr 25, 2018

Stuart444 said:
And probably scared of what will happen when the kid passes.

That too.

I think there's riot police there 'just in case'.

Deaf Spacker · Apr 25, 2018

HenrySwanson said:
True, but then there's always the Ashya King case....

Which is not comparable to Alfie Evans at all...

Broken Joystick · Apr 25, 2018

Tito said:
Well yeah, it's much better to try to kill him by disconnecting him, and now that he breathes by himself, you have to starve him; more than 30 hours now. Great logic there.

Let the parents decide, not some armchair burocrat who have no empathy whatsoever. Let the kid go to Italy or Nigeria or wherever the fuck his parents want to take him, to get to doctors that want to try and save his life, and get away from the doctors that want to forcibly kill him.

If this hospital doesn't want to treat him, and there is another hospital that wants to, then take him there, end of story, I don't know why this is even a discussion.

Those bloody doctors, keeping him in their care for 18 months. How dare they!

There is no treatment, that's one of the major points of this story. The other hospital doesn't have a miracle cure.

HenrySwanson · Apr 25, 2018

Deaf Spacker said:
Which is not comparable to Alfie Evans at all...

The point was that healthcare professionals are fallible and the parents' opposition may be justified. I'm not comparing the actual cases medically.

Tito · Apr 25, 2018

Coxy said:
So we should ignore the experts ?

Some experts have decided they don't want to treat him. OK, their choice.

Some other experts have said they want to treat him.

Family wants to take him to the experts that want to treat him; have the means to go, have people supporting them.

Some scumbag judge thinks that the family shouldn't have the choice to get him there, and has sentenced the kid to death.

Kid refuses to die, even though said experts (the first ones) said he would die minutes after disconnection. Guess what? Experts were wrong, this is a fact, this is data we have on our hands, and the kid is being tortured right now.

Every minute that passes plays against any possible treatment.

I have kids, and I can't even begin to imagine the pain that family is living right now, and ResetERA posters call the father a Scumbag??? WTF

Gibson · Apr 25, 2018

Tito said:
This case is ridiculous, it's not like the parents are asking for money or something, just let them take their son wherever they want; if the hospital has given up and don't want to continue treatment, then the father should have every right to take the son from there and go with him wherever the fuck he wants.

Stupid burocrats trying to kill him, first disconnecting him and now starving him.

Infuriating case.

You don't feed food if they're brain dead.

He is being given pallaitive care, if they fed him food he could drown because his body can't digest food etc.

They are not starving him.

Deaf Spacker · Apr 25, 2018

Tito said:
Some experts have decided they don't want to treat him. OK, their choice.

Some other experts have said they want to treat him.

Family wants to take him to the experts that want to treat him; have the means to go, have people supporting him.

Some scumbag judge thinks that the family shouldn't have the choice to get him there, and has sentenced the kid to death.

Kid refuses to die, even though said experts (the first ones) said he would die minutes after disconnection. Guess what? Experts where wrong, this is a fact, this is data we have on our hands, and the kid is being tortured right now.

Every minute that passes plays against any possible treatment.

I have kids, and I can't even begin to imagine the pain that family is living right now, and ResetERA posters call the father a Scumbag??? WTF

THERE IS NO TREATMENT.

SEVENTY PERCENT OF ALFIE'S BRAIN IS LIQUID.

*and breathe*

Also, they did not say that he would die in minutes, they said he could.

MouldyK · Apr 25, 2018

Either way, the Hospital will suffer backlash.

If he passes in the Hospital, people will say they didn't give him a chance.

If they went to Italy and he passes anyway, they will say the Hospital took too long.

People expecting miracles and hating Emergency Services is not the way to go.

Norwegian_Imposter · Apr 25, 2018

Tito said:
Some experts have decided they don't want to treat him. OK, their choice.

Some other experts have said they want to treat him.

Family wants to take him to the experts that want to treat him; have the means to go, have people supporting them.

Some scumbag judge thinks that the family shouldn't have the choice to get him there, and has sentenced the kid to death.

Kid refuses to die, even though said experts (the first ones) said he would die minutes after disconnection. Guess what? Experts were wrong, this is a fact, this is data we have on our hands, and the kid is being tortured right now.

Every minute that passes plays against any possible treatment.

I have kids, and I can't even begin to imagine the pain that family is living right now, and ResetERA posters call the father a Scumbag??? WTF

every outcome shows there is no treatment. He is not gonna get better.

If it wasnt for the Alfie Army and the crackpots around the case I would have more sympathy and at the moment I feel like he just wants to get to Italy to watch the second leg of football.

HenrySwanson · Apr 25, 2018

Tito said:
Some experts have decided they don't want to treat him. OK, their choice.

Some other experts have said they want to treat him.

Family wants to take him to the experts that want to treat him; have the means to go, have people supporting them.

Some scumbag judge thinks that the family shouldn't have the choice to get him there, and has sentenced the kid to death.

Kid refuses to die, even though said experts (the first ones) said he would die minutes after disconnection. Guess what? Experts were wrong, this is a fact, this is data we have on our hands, and the kid is being tortured right now.

Every minute that passes plays against any possible treatment.

I have kids, and I can't even begin to imagine the pain that family is living right now, and ResetERA posters call the father a Scumbag??? WTF

They are advocates for the child though.

Let's turn things around a second:

How would you feel about parents wanting to withhold a necessary, life saving blood transfusion on their 9 year old daughter because they are Jehovah's Witnesses and the medical staff going against the parents' wishes? It is overwhelmingly in the best interests of the child, which the medical team recognise. Would you allow the patient to die because the parents believe the medical team are wrong?

AaronC · Apr 25, 2018

Tito said:
Some experts have decided they don't want to treat him. OK, their choice.

Some other experts have said they want to treat him.

Family wants to take him to the experts that want to treat him; have the means to go, have people supporting them.

Some scumbag judge thinks that the family shouldn't have the choice to get him there, and has sentenced the kid to death.

Kid refuses to die, even though said experts (the first ones) said he would die minutes after disconnection. Guess what? Experts were wrong, this is a fact, this is data we have on our hands, and the kid is being tortured right now.

Every minute that passes plays against any possible treatment.

I have kids, and I can't even begin to imagine the pain that family is living right now, and ResetERA posters call the father a Scumbag??? WTF

The hospital in Italy is not offering treatment. It is offering the same kind of palliative care, only at a cost of 65000 euros to the parents.

Hold yourself to a higher standard and arm yourself with the facts. This perpetuation of falsities is what's turning a tragic case into a cruel farce.

FlammableAce · Apr 25, 2018

Also there has clearly been some neglect by the hospital..

This is how he was found when his parents entered his room

(A burn on his hand with no explanation from the hospital)

Norwegian_Imposter · Apr 25, 2018

FlammableAce said:
Also there has clearly been some neglect by the hospital..

when there is an agenda people bends instances. How and why would they burn a child?

HenrySwanson · Apr 25, 2018

FlammableAce said:
Also there has clearly been some neglect by the hospital..

That's....worrying.

PICU will have 1 to 1 or 1 on 2 nursing so I'm surprised at these pics.

Tito · Apr 25, 2018

HenrySwanson said:
They are advocates for the child though.

Let's turn things around a second:

How would you feel about parents wanting to withhold a necessary, life saving blood transfusion on their 9 year old daughter because they are Jehovah's Witnesses and the medical staff going against the parents' wishes? It is overwhelmingly in the best interests of the child, which the medical team recognise. Would you allow the patient to die because the parents believe the medical team are wrong?

I feel that you are making a ridiculous argument, apples and oranges, and this kind of stupid argumentation has no place in this case. That's how I feel (you asked).

The worst interest of the child is death, end of story. You are saying that disconnecting the kid, letting him die by asfixia and then of starvation (you CAN feed him) is on his best interest, which is ridiculous, moralizing, and just an opinion.

Even if the kid has 0.1% of recovering, I would take the chance, as a father, I would take the shot.

The problem here is that the family is being denied this very basic human right.

MouldyK · Apr 25, 2018

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...e-care-life-support-parents-nhs-a8321226.html

Just two days ago, members of "Alfie's Army" stormed the doors of Alder Hey, a hospital full of sick children who are already frightened. A terrified parent begged on Facebook for Alfie's Army to reconsider their plans to set off the fire alarms at Alder Hey, as her own child was on the operating table and "deserved a chance too".

This "Army" is just focused on the life of one, not thinking of others also at the Hospital. But it's fine. Let's call doctors murderers and public ally name them and send death threats.

They deserve it! /s

Norwegian_Imposter · Apr 25, 2018

Tito said:
I feel that you are making a ridiculous argument, apples and oranges, and this kind of stupid argumentation has no place in this case. That's how I feel (you asked).

The worst interest of the child is death, end of story. You are saying that disconnecting the kid, letting him die by asfixia and then of starvation (you CAN feed him) is on his best interest, which is ridiculous, moralizing, and just an opinion.

Even if the kid has 0.1% of recovering, I would take the chance, as a father, I would take the shot.

The problem here is that the family is being denied this very basic human right.

EVERYONE AGREES THERE IS 0% CHANCE THOUGH

Dan · Apr 25, 2018

Tito said:
I feel that you are making a ridiculous argument, apples and oranges, and this kind of stupid argumentation has no place in this case. That's how I feel (you asked).

The worst interest of the child is death, end of story. You are saying that disconnecting the kid, letting him die by asfixia and then of starvation (you CAN feed him) is on his best interest, which is ridiculous, moralizing, and just an opinion.

Even if the kid has 0.1% of recovering, I would take the chance, as a father, I would take the shot.

The problem here is that the family is being denied this very basic human right.

Do you have a source to say that he's not being fed?

Geoff · Apr 25, 2018

Tito said:
I feel that you are making a ridiculous argument, apples and oranges, and this kind of stupid argumentation has no place in this case. That's how I feel (you asked).

The worst interest of the child is death, end of story. You are saying that disconnecting the kid, letting him die by asfixia and then of starvation (you CAN feed him) is on his best interest, which is ridiculous, moralizing, and just an opinion.

Even if the kid has 0.1% of recovering, I would take the chance, as a father, I would take the shot.

The problem here is that the family is being denied this very basic human right.

he doesn't have a 0.1% chance of recovering.

MouldyK · Apr 25, 2018

Norwegian_Imposter said:
EVERYONE AGREES THERE IS 0% CHANCE THOUGH

The Alfie Army and Parents don't agree.

Dan said:
Do you have a source to say that he's not being fed?

The parents said he was not.

Norwegian_Imposter · Apr 25, 2018

MouldyK said:
The Alfie Army and Parents don't agree.

The parents said he was not.

Well consider this a case closed......

/s

Geoff · Apr 25, 2018

MouldyK said:
The Alfie Army and Parents don't agree.

So what? They don't have the qualifications to make that call.

FlammableAce · Apr 25, 2018

Norwegian_Imposter said:
when there is an agenda people bends instances. How and why would they burn a child?

I'm not saying they deliberately burnt him, but clearly he was neglected.

Dan said:
Do you have a source to say that he's not being fed?

When they removed his life support they also removed food/water/oxygen (which is standard procedure, because they're expected to die). 6 hours later the hospital put him back on oxygen and allowed him access to water but not food.

HenrySwanson · Apr 25, 2018

Tito said:
I feel that you are making a ridiculous argument, apples and oranges, and this kind of stupid argumentation has no place in this case. That's how I feel (you asked).

The worst interest of the child is death, end of story. You are saying that disconnecting the kid, letting him die by asfixia and then of starvation (you CAN feed him) is on his best interest, which is ridiculous, moralizing, and just an opinion.

Even if the kid has 0.1% of recovering, I would take the chance, as a father, I would take the shot.

The problem here is that the family is being denied this very basic human right.

I'm sorry it came across that way, I was just trying to illustrate how medical teams can be children's advocates, and how the best interest of that child is always the priority in their mind.

As a Christian, I get your argument - that life is precious and worth protecting no matter what. But as a med student in the UK I can understand how and why this has played out the way it has. I justify it as believing that sometimes palliation is the Christian thing to do - something which I learnt whilst being a Healthcare Assistant on a geriatric ward for over a year.

Deaf Spacker · Apr 25, 2018

Dan said:
Do you have a source to say that he's not being fed?

He's right, Alfie isn't being fed.

It's standard for EOL care.

Norwegian_Imposter · Apr 25, 2018

I am sorry to be so irate, its just the dad really, really rubs me up the wrong way.

Deaf Spacker · Apr 25, 2018

Norwegian_Imposter said:
I am sorry to be so irate, its just the dad really, really rubs me up the wrong way.

And the Alfie's Army muppets, none of them are even close to being medically qualified yet they know better than all of the medical professionals etc involved in this.

Tito · Apr 25, 2018

Dan said:
Do you have a source to say that he's not being fed?

Tom_Evans_on_Alfie_being_starved_to_death_April_24__2018_645_362.png

Apparently he is being fed again.

I have to ask ERA, why is it a problem letting his family take him away? Why are some so against it?

I honestly can't understand. Does it cost more tax money? No. Does it affect you in any way? No it doesn't. Why?

Alfie Evans case

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