Alfonso Ribeiro Sues Fortnite and NBA 2K Creators for Stealing Carlton Dance(Update: Backpack Kid sues Epic as well)

[Mit-]

I feel like the only people with a chance in court are those that can prove the move was lifted almost frame by frame from their music videos/TV shows/movies, thus infringing on that content by replicating it in a way and profiting off of it directly.

However that doesn't make sense either since the shows themselves are not going after them so I dunno lol. Perhaps the biggest argument is that they are profiting directly off of the move, as opposed to most other instances where it might just be thrown into a performance or video.

 

[CrocodileGrin]

I don't blame Alfonso for wanting that Fortnite $$$. The dance has been in everything from Saint's Row to Uncharted, but this is where the money is. I've seen the Flossing dance everywhere now and thought the kid deserved it until I saw the vids in the thread. He might have made it famous, but he didn't create it. Just curious, but does The Moonwalk have some sort of copyright or protection. I know it's an old move, but did Michael Jackson ever seek to protect when he was living?

 

[Ryan.]

So Backpack Kid is suing now? Wonder why he wasn't upset when they used "his" dance back in the summer when he competed in their celebrity/pro event back at E3?

 

[Slim]

https://www.gq.com/story/carlton-dance-springsteen
The dance is originally from Bruce Springsteen related stuff?

 

[Qwark]

I don't blame Alfonso for wanting that Fortnite $$$. The dance has been in everything from Saint's Row to Uncharted, but this is where the money is. I've seen the Flossing dance everywhere now and thought the kid deserved it until I saw the vids in the thread. He might have made it famous, but he didn't create it. Just curious, but does The Moonwalk have some sort of copyright or protection. I know it's an old move, but did Michael Jackson ever seek to protect when he was living?

Click to shrink...

It was around before MJ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonwalk_(dance)

Brass Body Dave mentioned that choreographer Bob Fosse has some kind of control over it (he did it in a movie in 1974), but I don't know any more than that.

Bob Fosse didn't give them the OK. It's complicated

Click to shrink...

 

[CrocodileGrin]

It was around before MJ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonwalk_(dance)

Brass Body Dave mentioned that choreographer Bob Fosse has some kind of control over it (he did it in a movie in 1974), but I don't know any more than that.

Click to shrink...

Oh wow, interesting. I had no idea.

 

[Whompa]

I don't blame Alfonso for wanting that Fortnite $$$. The dance has been in everything from Saint's Row to Uncharted, but this is where the money is. I've seen the Flossing dance everywhere now and thought the kid deserved it until I saw the vids in the thread. He might have made it famous, but he didn't create it. Just curious, but does The Moonwalk have some sort of copyright or protection. I know it's an old move, but did Michael Jackson ever seek to protect when he was living?

Click to shrink...

Just because people popularize dance moves (like MJ and Moonwalking) does not give them OWNERSHIP over those moves.

They "own them" as in, they do them well. They're not theirs to legally OWN.

Add that to the pile of reasons why this shit has extensive established laws, for decades, for creative dance and pantomiming.

 

[Deleted member 10629]

Context? Who is this guy? Google just mentions he's an actor who has danced in some music videos.

Click to shrink...

He is a short film director, he showed up with the AVGN as 'Keith Apicary' on a Christmas Special.

 

[Qwark]

He is a short film director, he showed up with the AVGN as 'Keith Apicary' on a Christmas Special.

Click to shrink...

Ok, but does he have a dance in Fortnite? Why is he involved?

 

[Karppuuna]

I bet Epic have make tens of millions with that dance move.

It's only fairness that they pay for the man to stealing it.

This is little bit a same thing when that tattoo artist sue movie company for using hes tattoo in Hangover 2.

 

[Deleted member 10629]

Ok, but does he have a dance in Fortnite? Why is he involved?

Click to shrink...

He does or did or claims to have invented (I cant find the original post atm, sorry) the 'No Bones' dance in Fortnite.

 

[Kudo]

Everyone thirsty for that Fortnite money.

 

[aiswyda]

You need to file a copyright registration in order to sue. Some jurisdictions require that the registration is granted before filing the lawsuit, but most just need you to file it (it can take a year or so to have it granted, so this is an important distinction).
Also, there is a statute of limitations for infringement, but doesn't matter here because the alleged "infringement" is still ongoing.
I don't think they have a case. Single dance moves generally aren't protectable. You need more than that. This is a huge waste of time and money.

Source: I'm a copyright lawyer

Click to shrink...

Awesome thanks for clarifying :)
I was aware of the need to register to sue and mentioned in my first reply to that poster which is why I didn't mention it again. Wasn't aware of the jurisdictional differences in when registration has to be filed and it's nice to have that information!

Also cool to hear input from an actual lawyer on the matter.

 

[Deathglobe]

Just insane now that human movements are considered copyright breaches

 

[GraveRobberX]

I mean shit even soulja boy aint in there since he actually copyrighted the dances.

Click to shrink...

Check Destiny 2 and Magnificent Dance and report bac

 

[Deleted member 9306]

Good. A bit tired of white people (let's be honest, most of the Fortnite devs are ) just outright stealing Black Culture without giving their proper dues or credit.

Honestly I don't even think this would've had to come this far had Epic named it "The Carlton Dance" and gave him a cut of their earnings. But I guess just hijacking the dance and putting it in the game is better...

 

[Whompa]

You need to file a copyright registration in order to sue. Some jurisdictions require that the registration is granted before filing the lawsuit, but most just need you to file it (it can take a year or so to have it granted, so this is an important distinction).
Also, there is a statute of limitations for infringement, but doesn't matter here because the alleged "infringement" is still ongoing.
I don't think they have a case. Single dance moves generally aren't protectable. You need more than that. This is a huge waste of time and money.

Source: I'm a copyright lawyer

Click to shrink...

Excellent post. Thanks for the clarity on this. Brb gunna go Floss for a bit.

 

[Gestault]

I'm familiar enough with the way the laws are written to know this isn't really established, and there's an odd grey space between discrete movements and choreography, but I think when identifiable dances are being sold a-la-carte, that's where you're most likely to run into issues that courts may recognize for creators.

There's a difference between a cultural component being included in a large, drastically transformative work; it's another when you sell creative works individually for their original purpose in a virtual context.

 

[Deleted member 5596]

Why so much of you have a problem with multimillion companies paying royalties from something they are profiting from which they did not t created?

Copyright can be a fucking mess, this is not the case

 

[elzeus]

Just curious, but does The Moonwalk have some sort of copyright or protection

Click to shrink...

Probably not, but if they used it they would have a team of music industry lawyers from who ever owns MJ's music rights now breathing down their necks.

 

[TheGift]

Just insane now that human movements are considered copyright breaches

Click to shrink...

Why are you simplifying it? If you're gonna reduce a dance to just "human movements", you can probably say the same for words. Just a human moving their mouth and blowing air in different ways. I'd like to see you come up with some "human movements" that are interesting enough for people to steal and put in a game.

 

[Deleted member 5864]

Sue them all

 

[Deleted member 10629]

At this point Epic should drop the dances all together and pay for their own choreographies and dancers.

 

[Deleted member 5596]

Just insane now that human movements are considered copyright breaches

Click to shrink...

Is insane how music notes are considered copyright breaches

 

[DHR54]

Isn't a part of copyright defending your work? The sheer number of games this move has been in, surely that's going to be in his disadvantage right?

 

[Deathglobe]

Why are you simplifying it? If you're gonna reduce a dance to just "human movements", you can probably say the same for words. Just a human moving their mouth and blowing air in different ways. I'd like to see you come up with some "human movements" that are interesting enough for people to steal and put in a game.

Click to shrink...

Cry harder if you want to. But this just another step in a dumb society that wants to trademark everything and sue everyone for every little thing.

 

[ZackieChan]

Awesome thanks for clarifying :)
I was aware of the need to register to sue and mentioned in my first reply to that poster which is why I didn't mention it again. Wasn't aware of the jurisdictional differences in when registration has to be filed and it's nice to have that information!

Also cool to hear input from an actual lawyer on the matter.

Click to shrink...

No problem!

Excellent post. Thanks for the clarity on this. Brb gunna go Floss for a bit.

Click to shrink...

I'll be writing up the legal complaint while you do.

I'm familiar enough with the way the laws are written to know this isn't really established, and there's an odd grey space between discrete movements and choreography, but I think when identifiable dances are being sold a-la-carte, that's where you're most likely to run into issues that courts may recognize for creators.

There's a difference between a cultural component being included in a large, drastically transformative work; it's another when you sell creative works individually for their original purpose in a virtual context.

Click to shrink...

Not sure any of that matters if the content isn't copyrightable in the first place. See this from the copyright office: https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ52.pdf

Isn't a part of copyright defending your work? The sheer number of games this move has been in, surely that's going to be in his disadvantage right?

Click to shrink...

No, that's trademark where you are required to police it to retain rights. No such thing in copyright.

 

[Whompa]

I'll be writing up the legal complaint while you do.

Click to shrink...

Dammit I now feel so complainted on. Okay I'll stop. *dabs and then moonwalks out the door*

 

[Deleted member 5596]

Cry harder if you want to. But this just another step in a dumb society that wants to trademark everything and sue everyone for every little thing.

Click to shrink...

The dumb society is the one looking to make money of everything, even dance moves.

 

[Hentz]

Katy should sue them for using her Swish Swish dance too

EDIT: oh I see the 'backpack kid' already sued, HOWEVER Katy did use the dance before him in her iHeart performance, so its more Katy Perry's dance than this kid's.

(the dance @ 2:47, the award show was in March and SNL was in May)

 

[Kinthey]

Why so much of you have a problem with multimillion companies paying royalties from something they are profiting from which they did not t created?

Copyright can be a fucking mess, this is not the case

Click to shrink...

It would be guranteed to become a fucking mess though. Look forward to big companies setting their lawyers to analyze every music video frame to find dance elements they now own

 

[Qwark]

Katy should sue them for using her Swish Swish dance too

EDIT: oh I see the 'backpack kid' already sued, HOWEVER Katy did use the dance before him in her iHeart performance, so its more Katy Perry's dance than this kid's.

(the dance @ 2:47, the award show was in March and SNL was in May)

Click to shrink...

It's already been talked about a lot in here, but the floss dates back to at least 2011 with youtube evidence. And it wasn't backpack kid or Katy.

 

[dlauv]

Katy should sue them for using her Swish Swish dance too

EDIT: oh I see the 'backpack kid' already sued, HOWEVER Katy did use the dance before him in her iHeart performance, so its more Katy Perry's dance than this kid's.

(the dance @ 2:47, the award show was in March and SNL was in May)

Click to shrink...

Epic > Backpack Kid > Katy Perry > Look What I Can Do > Mormon > Mashed Potato.

Copyrighting dance moves is a fucking stupid idea.

With the Carlton they lift not just the step from the show, but a direct sequence in a choreography featured on Dancing With the Stars.

 

[Deleted member 5596]

It would be guranteed to become a fucking mess though. Look forward to big companies setting their lawyers to analyze every music video frame to find dance elements they now own

Click to shrink...

Welcome to the music industry. And it's fine, people still make plenty of awesome music.

The thing is that Epic is making a lot of money out of something they didn't created. Maybe we should have stopped before selling dance moves, but here we are.

 

[Nerd_Incognito]

Speaking of Michael Jackson, highly surprised his estate never sued Bungie for using both Thriller and Beat it in Destiny 1.

In fact, both Ribiero's Carlton dance and Backpack Kid's floss dance are in Destiny. The Carlton was in D1 and the floss is currently in D2.

If they win then it'll affect emotes across the entire games industry, not just for Fortnite.

 

[dlauv]

Speaking of Michael Jackson, highly surprised his estate never sued Bungie for using both Thriller and Beat it in Destiny 1.

In fact, both Ribiero's Carlton dance and Backpack Kid's floss dance are in Destiny. The Carlton was in D1 and the floss is currently in D2.

If they win then it'll affect emotes across the entire games industry, not just for Fortnite.

Click to shrink...

Likely, but it depends on the clauses. Like, they could make it so that it depends on if it's being sold directly or not. The grey area would be monetized videos. Either way, it'll be a shitshow, but "get paid," etc.

 

[Nerd_Incognito]

Likely, but it depends on the clauses. Like, they could make it so that it depends on if it's being sold directly or not. The grey area would be monetized videos.

Click to shrink...

I was thinking strictly for emotes you could purchase directly, either with V-Bucks or Silver, but the artists could argue that if a game is sold directly (Destiny) to the consumer and their work is being included they should receive a cut. Otherwise the cut comes from those direct emote purchases. In either scenario the developer / publisher has to potentially cough up a ton of dough.

 

[chandoog]

He also claims he's in the middle of copyrighting the Carlton dance.

Click to shrink...

If he's in the middle of copyrighting and doesn't actually *have* the copyright ... then shouldn't it not be any issue for Epic/Fortnite ?

they can always remove it if Alfonso obtains the copyright.

 

[nemoral]

If they had an ounce of brains, EPIC would just settle with the various dancers for a reasonable fee. They're hauling in more money than they can handle, and they could really lean into it by directly licensing various dances from popular stars and doing promotional work with the stars. Turn the entire thing into a positive for a little cash.

 

[Dragoon]

This is a really good point and it also begs the question, do the people suing actually believe that the inclusion of their dance moves is why Fortnite is generating so much revenue?

Because they are fucking delusional if they actually think that.

Click to shrink...

No it's about suing for money, which is what people in America love to do. Pretty sure I remember a thief that broken into a house, broke his foot and successfully sued the owner.

 

[Parthenios]

Why so much of you have a problem with multimillion companies paying royalties from something they are profiting from which they did not t created?

Copyright can be a fucking mess, this is not the case

Click to shrink...

Even ignoring the absurdity of copyrighting dance moves--Because realistically the multimillion dollar companies are going to be paying royalties to other multimillion dollar companies, so might as well side with the one that protects individuals the most (less restrictive copyright laws). If a copyright did exist for the Carlton dance, it would certainly be owned by whatever studio owned the rights to the show, not the performer.

What happens if somehow these suits win and this precedent is set? Think outside of video games or "this guy I like is suing this video game that I don't." Suddenly most dance studios have to close because students couldn't ever perform dances without paying tons in licensing fees or royalties (meaning access to these activities will be limited to the wealthy). If the floss (a single movement, repeated) can be copyrighted, then literally any body movement could be. Surely it's not hard to imagine how that's not good for anyone.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Even ignoring the absurdity of copyrighting dance moves--Because realistically the multimillion dollar companies are going to be paying royalties to other multimillion dollar companies, so might as well side with the one that protects individuals the most (less restrictive copyright laws). If a copyright did exist for the Carlton dance, it would certainly be owned by whatever studio owned the rights to the show, not the performer.

What happens if somehow these suits win and this precedent is set? Think outside of video games or "this guy I like is suing this video game that I don't." Suddenly most dance studios have to close because students couldn't ever perform dances without paying tons in licensing fees or royalties (meaning access to these activities will be limited to the wealthy). If the floss (a single movement, repeated) can be copyrighted, then literally any body movement could be. Surely it's not hard to imagine how that's not good for anyone.

Click to shrink...

So to protect people getting screwed over by giant corporations, we must side with the giant corporation over the people they are screwing over... Sound logic. I mean, I get that it seems absurd to copyright dance moves, but Epic selling these for actual money shows that there is a legitimate market for this content. Shouldn't the original creator of the content be entitled to some of the compensation that Epic is earning from this? And don't start telling me that the original creator is Courtney Cox or Eddie Murphy; Alfonso combined an exaggerated version of both of those disparate works into a specific routine that no one had done before, to the point where we don't call it the Courtney Cox or the Eddie Murphy; we call it the Carlton. Why is it reasonable that someone can invent something and popularize it to the point where we associate it specifically with them, but not be allowed to protect it so that other people (or giant corporations) can sell it without compensating them at all? That's not OK with writing, it's not OK with music, it's not OK with art, but if it's a dance, suddenly it's all good? I don't get it.

 

[SPRidley]

I wonder if he knows the Carlton dance has been in Destiny 1 for like 4 years lmao

Click to shrink...

And all saints row games.

 

[Parthenios]

And don't start telling me that the original creator is Courtney Cox or Eddie Murphy; Alfonso combined an exaggerated version of both of those disparate works into a specific routine that no one had done before, to the point where we don't call it the Courtney Cox or the Eddie Murphy; we call it the Carlton.

Click to shrink...

If Courtney Cox and Eddie Murphy can't claim ownership because it's actually Alfonso's performance that is up for debate (and not the actual dance moves), well then the same mechanism would apply to Alfonso and he couldn't claim ownership either. Epic isn't selling Alfonso's performance. They created their own performance (created digitally be a team) and are selling that. If Alfonso's performance is worth money and he should be compensated, then he should be able to perform this dance for money.

If instead, it's not the dance moves that are valuable, but Epic's design and coding and implementation into Fortnite that is valuable (ding ding ding) then why would he have a claim to that? If our concern is that creators get compensated for their creations, well, Epic created their dance performances.

 

[The Great Khali]

I'm gonna prerecord some dance moves and upload on YouTube and sit on those claims surely one of my dance moves will eventually get copied. I'll have the YouTube upload date to show I did it first

 

[Meg Cherry]

If they had an ounce of brains, EPIC would just settle with the various dancers for a reasonable fee. They're hauling in more money than they can handle, and they could really lean into it by directly licensing various dances from popular stars and doing promotional work with the stars. Turn the entire thing into a positive for a little cash.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I imagine the impact from this is only that Epic pays out of court to anybody who has a somewhat reasonable claim - and then they just work out a feasible revenue split on future dancers who 'popularized' new moves. That way, if there's any dispute to the origins - it's no longer Epic's problem.

 

[Whompa]

I'm gonna prerecord some dance moves and upload on YouTube and sit on those claims surely one of my dance moves will eventually get copied. I'll have the YouTube upload date to show I did it first

Click to shrink...

I planked to this.

 

[Parthenios]

Here's the bad end: these lawsuits establish that you can copyright dance moves, so Epic files for and is granted all of the copyrights for these dance moves then sue the original dancers.

 

[Razor Mom]

Why so much of you have a problem with multimillion companies paying royalties from something they are profiting from which they did not t created?

Copyright can be a fucking mess, this is not the case

Click to shrink...

Can you go find whoever created the floss, please? It should be pretty straight forward, and this money has got to go somewhere. Thanks.

 

[Razor Mom]

If they had an ounce of brains, EPIC would just settle with the various dancers for a reasonable fee. They're hauling in more money than they can handle, and they could really lean into it by directly licensing various dances from popular stars and doing promotional work with the stars. Turn the entire thing into a positive for a little cash.

Click to shrink...

I promise you, Epic don't see "kid who didn't create dance claims he did and wants money" as a negative that they're losing sleep over.