Alfonso Ribeiro Sues Fortnite and NBA 2K Creators for Stealing Carlton Dance(Update: Backpack Kid sues Epic as well)

BernardoOne · Dec 18, 2018

KoopaTheCasual said:
People really out in this thread using slippery slope arguments of copyright on how it would actually hurt dancers, as if any of y'all gave a shit about dancers rights before it was tangentially related to your video games?

The whataboutism and bad faith arguments in here are crazy.

Not slippery slope. People are talking about what would 100% happen because it's literally how copyright works.
Also i'd love to see the receipts on people not caring about the absurd shit that is copyrighting dance moves and caring only because of a game. Post actual proof of that instead of some dumb non-starter argument where you just make shit up about the people who don't agree with you because you have no actual arguments.

borghe · Dec 18, 2018

Avalon said:
Copyrighting dances is a stupid concept and I agree wholeheartedly with Ultra David (FGC commentator and practicing lawyer).

I mean... this is bullshit. You could levy this against ANY sort of IP.

"what? we only used one sample from the song. it didn't have anything to do with how successful the album was? and they were already paid on the original audio years ago!"

that's not how IP works.

now admittedly he almost assuredly doesn't "own" the IP of the dance. If anything Warner (or whomever) owns it as a part of their episodes of Fresh Prince. But the premise that "this IP is ok to steal, but this IP needs to be licensed" is silly. If you are COPYING something someone else came up with... and they with to receive attribution or compensation for it, they have a RIGHT to require that.. I know it's confusing.. but maybe we can come up with a word to cover such a thing. Don't like it? Then don't use it.

PHOENIXZERO · Dec 18, 2018

People cheering this on, ignoring the very slippery slope it'll create...

GhostTrick · Dec 18, 2018

PHOENIXZERO said:
People cheering this on, ignoring the very slippery slope it'll create...

Oh, they'll understand once these big companies copyright everything.

BernardoOne · Dec 18, 2018

Relaxed Muscle said:
In Ribeiro's case who exactly? If he profits from this and is proved that his work is also from other person, he should pay that other person too then.

So now, what's the problem?

If Ribeiro's is not the creator, then pay the actual creator, how does that justify that Epic is profiting from something they didn't created?

Have you missed people finding earlier and earlier happenings of people doing the floss dance.
You can't find who's the actual first creator of simple dance moves. Factually. Do you not realize how dancing itself has worked since the dawn of dancing?

You're basically arguing for douchebags with tons of moneys and lawyers to just get ownership of everything despite them not creating it because they have the money to do it lmao

GhostTrick · Dec 18, 2018

BernardoOne said:
Have you missed people finding earlier and earlier happenings of people doing the floss dance.
You can't find who's the actual first creator of simple dance moves. Factually.

I mean, especially when, in the case of the floss "dance" it's such a dumb and simple move that I guess someone might have done it centuries ago.

SRTtoZ · Dec 18, 2018

It won't stand in court. This is just his/their attempt to try and get a quick settlement. Won't work though.

KoopaTheCasual · Dec 18, 2018

It's also very telling when people link older videos of people doing these moves as a shitty attempt at a gotcha. This fails on two levels:

1) The huge issue is that these moves (at least in Carlton and Turk examples) are CHOREOGRAPHY, which is an extended sequence lifted one-to-one from a direct source. If you can find extended one-to-one videos of someone doing exactly what Carlton and Turk did, before they popularized them, that's super fucking impressive, and likely impossible. (It's crazy that EPIC was so lazy that they didn't have a friend mocap a similar type of movement, but just lifted it)

2) Say you mystically find this video of a previous dancer with a one-to-one recreation (still blows my mind at the sheer impossibility of this feat). Yes, the claim should go to the earlier documentation. Why defend EPIC's thievery at all? I know why, you don't have to answer that.

Bold One · Dec 18, 2018

stan_marsh said:
Is this guy suing too?

https://youtu.be/8e6-_mx3LI4 @ 3:07

Theorry · Dec 18, 2018

Makes sense. Get that money Carlton.

Mr. Fantastic · Dec 18, 2018

Makes no sense. Keep that money Epic.

BernardoOne · Dec 18, 2018

KoopaTheCasual said:
It's also very telling when people link older videos of people doing these moves as a shitty attempt at a gotcha. This fails on two levels:

1) The huge issue is that these moves (at least in Carlton and Turk examples) are CHOREOGRAPHY, which is an extended sequence lifted one-to-one from a direct source. If you can find extended one-to-one videos of someone doing exactly what Carlton and Turk did, before they popularized them, that's super fucking impressive, and likely impossible. (It's crazy that EPIC was so lazy that they didn't have a friend mocap a similar type of movement, but just lifted it)

2) Say you mystically find this video of a previous dancer with a one-to-one recreation (still blows my mind at the sheer impossibility of this feat). Yes, the claim should go to the earlier documentation. Why defend EPIC's thievery at all? I know why, you don't have to answer that.

Why defend thievery, says man defending thievery.

Lmao

Carlton's move is not a coreography, and Turk isn't suing (and his emote isn't being sold, not to mention Epic cleared it with the show's creators)

The floss videos posted are also literally the exact same move down to a T.

Dragoon · Dec 18, 2018

DJChuy said:
Alfonso doesn't own the rights, so he's pretty much screwed. Even if Epic miraculously ends up losing, the proceeds will most likely go to whoever owns Fresh Prince.

The Fortnite dance doesn't affect him in any way, and he got paid buckets of cash copying a dance someone else had already come up with. Maybe screwed has a different definition in your country, but in Canada that's not what it means.

Ferrio · Dec 18, 2018

I wonder who will more likely abuse copyright law if this sets precedence, the poor artist or the big corporations. 🤔 Any short term good that would come of this would be abused by the same corporations that these lawsuits are being brought against.

Chicken Wing · Dec 18, 2018

I get both sides here but in some of these specific case Epic literally frame by frame copied them. It's one thing to pay homage or whatever yall wanna say but it's another thing is to not only copy them frame by frame but to ALSO change the name and not even give so much as a single credit or holla and THEN ALSO to charge money for it. I hope all these people get their bags.

KoopaTheCasual · Dec 18, 2018

BernardoOne said:
Why defend thievery, says man defending thievery.

Lmao

Carlton's move is not a coreography, and Turk isn't suing (and his emote isn't being sold, not to mention Epic cleared it with the show's creators)

The floss videos posted are also literally the exact same move down to a T.

"Not choreography"

Spoken like someone who doesn't dance... Choreography is any sequence of replicated and reproduced steps.

Carlton's Dance is choreography noted by the swinging ball change of his feet, his arm pathway, and the subsequent two-step. This is not even an argument:

That's lifted choreography. One to One

Christo750 · Dec 18, 2018

BernardoOne said:
Have you missed people finding earlier and earlier happenings of people doing the floss dance.
You can't find who's the actual first creator of simple dance moves. Factually. Do you not realize how dancing itself has worked since the dawn of dancing?

You're basically arguing for douchebags with tons of moneys and lawyers to just get ownership of everything despite them not creating it because they have the money to do it lmao

Fucking exactly and thank you.

These are likely the same companies that already don't pay artists for their music. You think if they were allowed to copyright dances they'd pass it up and say "nah that's not culturally right, the creator should get the money!" Bullshit. It'll be another thing they can own and if they don't own it outright, it'll be another thing they can take a slice of as part of a 360 deal.

I think it's wrong that Epic/Fortnite uses dances made popular by other people and don't credit them at all. But I think nobody owning it is way better than the same companies that own everything owning them as well.

Mzo · Dec 18, 2018

Shakka43 said:
Hope he doesn't sue Astro Bot too, lol.

Came here for this.

There's a little Carlton in Astro's end-level celebration.

Chindogg · Dec 18, 2018

borghe said:
I mean... this is bullshit. You could levy this against ANY sort of IP.

"what? we only used one sample from the song. it didn't have anything to do with how successful the album was? and they were already paid on the original audio years ago!"

that's not how IP works.

now admittedly he almost assuredly doesn't "own" the IP of the dance. If anything Warner (or whomever) owns it as a part of their episodes of Fresh Prince. But the premise that "this IP is ok to steal, but this IP needs to be licensed" is silly. If you are COPYING something someone else came up with... and they with to receive attribution or compensation for it, they have a RIGHT to require that.. I know it's confusing.. but maybe we can come up with a word to cover such a thing. Don't like it? Then don't use it.

Are you a copyright lawyer, because the person's twitter you're quoting is.

Redfox088 · Dec 18, 2018

Rodjer said:
Not suing Blizzard?

Where is it? Is it the whole routine?

low-G · Dec 18, 2018

PHOENIXZERO said:
People cheering this on, ignoring the very slippery slope it'll create...

We live on the edge of a cliff and when someone knocks a big dog off the edge, we cheer.

Chindogg · Dec 18, 2018

Rodjer said:
Not suing Blizzard?

That's the Charleston, not the Carlton lol

ThisIsBlitz21 · Dec 18, 2018

jrDev said:
Are you an artist? GTFO of here with this attitude. Dancing is an art form and should be under copyright law!

NO. How about you GTFO? The fact of the matter is copyrighting body movements is fucking bullshit., and will set a dangerous precedence.

Lets think practically here.

edit: we all know he's in it for the money and nothing else.

DJChuy · Dec 18, 2018

Dragoon said:
The Fortnite dance doesn't affect him in any way, and he got paid buckets of cash copying a dance someone else had already come up with. Maybe screwed has a different definition in your country, but in Canada that's not what it means.

What I mean is I don't see him winning since he doesn't have a strong case.

FF Seraphim · Dec 18, 2018

KoopaTheCasual said:
It's also very telling when people link older videos of people doing these moves as a shitty attempt at a gotcha. This fails on two levels:

1) The huge issue is that these moves (at least in Carlton and Turk examples) are CHOREOGRAPHY, which is an extended sequence lifted one-to-one from a direct source. If you can find extended one-to-one videos of someone doing exactly what Carlton and Turk did, before they popularized them, that's super fucking impressive, and likely impossible. (It's crazy that EPIC was so lazy that they didn't have a friend mocap a similar type of movement, but just lifted it)

2) Say you mystically find this video of a previous dancer with a one-to-one recreation (still blows my mind at the sheer impossibility of this feat). Yes, the claim should go to the earlier documentation. Why defend EPIC's thievery at all? I know why, you don't have to answer that.

The Carlton dance wasnt fully chronographed though for the show. He even says he made it up on the spot mixing in other dances. Plus it has to be a certain length of dance movement before it can be copyrighted.
As for defending Epic, its more about defending legal standing considering when copyright laws changed corporations take advantage of it.
The case should be aiming at dance copyright law then if successful should hit Epic. I highly doubt it even will be successful though.

signal · Dec 18, 2018

PHOENIXZERO said:
People cheering this on, ignoring the very slippery slope it'll create...

Please explain the direct fallout you think will come of this, keeping in mind how popular some of these dances were and that epic is charging people for these dances.

AwShucks · Dec 18, 2018

ThisIsBlitz21 said:
The fact of the matter is copyrighting body movements is fucking bullshit., and will set a dangerous precedence.

Choreography is already able to be copyright.

Grimmy11 · Dec 18, 2018

So since Alfonso Ribiero says he stole the dance from Courtney Cox in the Dancing in the dark video and Eddie Murphy's "white man dance" who should epic be paying? Courtney Cox? Bruce Springsteen? Eddie Murphy? Alfonso Ribiero? The Fresh prince Producers? the fresh prince's tv network?

This is why it's a terrible idea.

knightmarre · Dec 18, 2018

With the way these threads go you would think reading comprehension is copyrighted.

Qwark · Dec 18, 2018

signal said:
Please explain the direct fallout you think will come of this, keeping in mind how popular some of these dances were and that epic is charging people for these dances.

People have already provided their thoughts numerous times. You don't have to agree, but asking them to be repeated again is just going in circles. There's examples on this very page for you to dissect.

Sorry to be blunt, but it's been the same back and forth for 18 pages.

Edit: Sorry, I'm thread policing, discussion is healthy, carry on.

KoopaTheCasual · Dec 18, 2018

FF Seraphim said:
The Carlton dance wasnt fully chronographed though for the show. He even says he made it up on the spot mixing in other dances. Plus it has to be a certain length of dance movement before it can be copyrighted.
As for defending Epic, its more about defending legal standing considering when copyright laws changed corporations take advantage of it.
The case should be aiming at dance copyright law then if successful should hit Epic. I highly doubt it even will be successful though.

Yea, I agree that dance copyright needs to be addressed in general. It would certainly help me and my entire industry sleep better at night.

The instance with Carlton is interesting since he has performed several variations of the Carlton dance on the show/media. If EPIC, like I said, got someone to do similar movement, we probably wouldn't even be here right now. Outside of the strict theft of choreography, my views on this are less concrete. It's also why even as a choreographer, I have reservations about the Milly Rock case, since it's pretty crazy to copyright an entire STYLE of dance (which I think Milly Rocking is becoming, which raises a whole separate issue of when something becomes its own "style" and not just a move with varied vocabulary). It's like if Ken Swift woke up tomorrow and decided to sue everyone for Bboying.

But that's a whole other can of worms. But for this Carlton case with video evidence, I'm all for him collecting on them.

Bucca · Dec 18, 2018

Backpack Kid and his mom are very blatantly trying to cash in on this after his 5 minutes of Fame with Katy Perry were up lmao

BGBW · Dec 18, 2018

I'm sorry, but this "Backpack Kid" didn't invent swinging ones arms from side to side - Mario did.

Neonep · Dec 18, 2018

I do respect the lawsuits. If Epic were just giving these things out for free they wouldn't be in this mess. Just like music, you have to pay for samples to get cleared if you plan to sell your music. If you give your music out for free you don't have to clear anything because you don't plan to profit from it.

SavoyPrime · Dec 18, 2018

goldenpp73 said:
How sensible.

Never said it was. That's why I lol'd.

Mechanized · Dec 18, 2018

Grimmy11 said:
So since Alfonso Ribiero says he stole the dance from Courtney Cox in the Dancing in the dark video and Eddie Murphy's "white man dance" who should epic be paying? Courtney Cox? Bruce Springsteen? Eddie Murphy? Alfonso Ribiero? The Fresh prince Producers? the fresh prince's tv network?

This is why it's a terrible idea.

Eh when Lockheed Martin eventually owns the rights to dancing in general it won't be complicated anymore.

Deleted member 5596 · Dec 18, 2018

BernardoOne said:
Have you missed people finding earlier and earlier happenings of people doing the floss dance.
You can't find who's the actual first creator of simple dance moves. Factually. Do you not realize how dancing itself has worked since the dawn of dancing?

You're basically arguing for douchebags with tons of moneys and lawyers to just get ownership of everything despite them not creating it because they have the money to do it lmao

Have you missed the 50s chord progression and how is used in hundreds of songs but that doesn't mean you can get any of the many songs that uses it, copy it and sell for money without paying those authors that used the same 4 chords for their songs?

Stiler · Dec 18, 2018

KoopaTheCasual said:
"Not choreography"

Spoken like someone who doesn't dance... Choreography is any sequence of replicated and reproduced steps.

Carlton's Dance is choreography noted by the swinging ball change of his feet, his arm pathway, and the subsequent two-step. This is not even an argument:

That's lifted choreography. One to One

You can not copyright simple dance moves, steps, and routines like that.

Don't take it just from me though, watch @ 4:50 in this video on what a copyright lawyer says:
https://www.businessinsider.com/can-you-copyright-a-dance-move-2018-9?r=UK&IR=T

Need to have more then a few steps, does not protect against simple dance steps, social dances, or simple routines.

The Carlton dance, just like Milly's, the Shoot, and other dances in fortnite, are not complicated professional choreographic works, they are literally simple dance steps that a normal person can easily do.

svacina · Dec 18, 2018

Neonep said:
If you give your music out for free you don't have to clear anything because you don't plan to profit from it.

That's not how anything works.

If you give away your stuff for free you are likely to get away with it, but not because you aren't required to clear anything, but because you are such a small scale operation that nobody would care and there is no money to get from you over this.

They could still fuck you over easy if they woke up feeling mean, no trouble.

mephixto · Dec 18, 2018

So that's why we don't see "Moon Walks" everywhere.

Stiler · Dec 18, 2018

mephixto said:
So that's why we don't see "Moon Walks" everywhere.

MJ doesn't own the moonwalk, and regardless the moonwalk wouldn't be copyrightable, it's a simple step, not a whole choreographed work.

borghe · Dec 18, 2018

A.By said:
I think it's important to note too that the naming of the dance stands out a lot. While there is an argument to be made about "copyrighting movements," the title of the dance in Fortnite makes it blatant that they're selling the Carlton Dance.

I mean.. we already copy movement. Film.

Chindogg said:
Are you a copyright lawyer, because the person's twitter you're quoting is.

you mean the twitter who says under current laws there is probably merit? 🤔

Chindogg · Dec 18, 2018

borghe said:
I mean.. we already copy movement. Film.

you mean the twitter who says under current laws there is probably merit? 🤔

When it's more important to get a win in an internet argument then to understand the point that was being made.

Yukinari · Dec 18, 2018

A.By said:
I think it's important to note too that the naming of the dance stands out a lot. While there is an argument to be made about "copyrighting movements," the title of the dance in Fortnite makes it blatant that they're selling the Carlton Dance.

So epic and valve would just change the name of the dance then? Its even more blatant in TF2 and yet that was in 2016.

borghe · Dec 18, 2018

Chindogg said:
When it's more important to get a win in an internet argument then to understand the point that was being made.

No his point was terrible. Borderline insane. As written, literally, it could be applied to virtually any form or reproduction.. artistic, scientific, industrial, etc. His entire basis was "someone did something. Someone else copied it. Someone else's something was successful beyond the arbitrary merit of the first someone's thing. How awful that the first someone expects compensation for their something being used."

Meows · Dec 18, 2018

I don't think they have a case but I wish them well.

ThisIsBlitz21 · Dec 18, 2018

AwShucks said:
Choreography is already able to be copyright.

I already know that.

But this case (and the 2 milly one) will set a precendent for the future, I hope its the good one.

Laughing Banana · Dec 18, 2018

If he somehow wins the whole case, what would it mean to other games using his and other people's dances too? Like games from Bungie, Valve, Microsoft with Forza, etc etc? Are they legally obliged to pay him too and other people claiming dances too?

Deleted member 3093 · Dec 18, 2018

Yukinari said:
So epic and valve would just change the name of the dance then? Its even more blatant in TF2 and yet that was in 2016.

The point is that people are talking about the slippery slope of copyrighting dance moves, but in this case, the intent is 100% clear.

Static · Dec 18, 2018

Redfox088 said:
Where is it? Is it the whole routine?

I think this youtube video is a joke, the dance tracer does there is the Charleston, a dance popular in the 1920s, when the women performing it would've been called flappers.

Alfonso Ribeiro Sues Fortnite and NBA 2K Creators for Stealing Carlton Dance(Update: Backpack Kid sues Epic as well)

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