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jrDev

Banned
Mar 2, 2018
1,528
NO. How about you GTFO? The fact of the matter is copyrighting body movements is fucking bullshit., and will set a dangerous precedence.

Lets think practically here.

edit: we all know he's in it for the money and nothing else.
A dangerous precedence for who? This doesn't affect game design so why should you care. Also are you serious to think this ISNT about money (Wpic is making millions off this)? Why do we have copyright laws: to get paid if someone makes money off our stuff!

PS: I said GTFO because your attitude read blunt and nasty...
 

ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,662
A dangerous precedence for who? This doesn't affect game design so why should you care. Also are you serious to think this ISNT about money (Wpic is making millions off this)? Why do we have copyright laws: to get paid if someone makes money off our stuff!

PS: I said GTFO because your attitude read blunt and nasty...
1) I dont play Fortnite and dont care really much about it, so no, I'm not worried about its game design.
2) This is a slippery slope, and corporations will end up abusing it much more than the single sample we see here.
3) It's not HIS stuff. Body movements dont belong to anyone, period.
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
A dangerous precedence for who? This doesn't affect game design so why should you care. Also are you serious to think this ISNT about money (Wpic is making millions off this)? Why do we have copyright laws: to get paid if someone makes money off our stuff!

PS: I said GTFO because your attitude read blunt and nasty...

A dangerous precedence for anyone who's involved in dancing in any form, be it music artist, movies that feature dancing, games that use dancing, etc.

Allow simple moves like Milly's, the shoot, floss, etc would set a precedent because as it stands now those kind of simple dances are not copyrightable, which is why virtually anyone can dance and use that dance in music videos, movies, games, any medium that it can be used in.

If you allow people to copyright things that are that simple you open the gate for the music industry to run rampant with that, they will in turn move to own every single dance move that any artists under them does, and then they will enforce those copyrights with full force just like they do with music copyrights.

Who would this hurt? Basically anyone and everyone that isn't signed to a major record label or has permission (or money to license) to use those dance moves. It would effectively stifle the ability for people to dance for fear of being sued. All these up and coming artists that have dancing in their music videos that are shooting on a shoestring budget? Do you think they can afford lawyers and people to ensure the dances they do are free and clear and no one else owns those moves? No, so either they'll do them and then get sued into oblivion if someone owns them or they'll simply choose not to dance at all.

There's a clear reason why currently they do not allow simple dance moves or routines to be copyrighted, because those kinds of steps are building blocks on which you can make actual choreographic works which can be copyrighted.

It would be the equivalent of allowing authors to copyright words, phrases, or sentences, can you see how that would in turn hurt other writers?
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,208
Im not sure body movement can be copyrighted?
It's been pointed out multiple times that it can, not only in this thread, but several times this shit appeared on news segments today, too.

In specific reference to the Carlton, they literally copied his moves 1:1. Mannerism, posture, and foot placement. It's not like they hired a person to do the dance; they essentially copy/pasted Alfonso from video footage into their rendering engine, turned him into a cartoon, and sold him to millions of people across the world.
 

Sandersson

Banned
Feb 5, 2018
2,535
Im gonna patent walking dance as a choreography and sue everyone I dont like for that big money. This seems like a money printer bois.
 

svacina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,439
It's been pointed out multiple times that it can, not only in this thread, but several times this shit appeared on news segments today, too.
The extent to which body movement can be copyrighted is in dispute though.

The actual decision will be about how much of body movement constitutes choreography. If the courts decide the Carlton doesn't pass that muster than it does not matter how 1:1 Epic copied his stuff.
 

Retro!

Member
Oct 25, 2017
427
Anyone wanting to know from an actual copyright attorney if you can copyright dances? Here you go.



I think the grey area here is that Fortnite isn't just making dances. They're clearly selling them based on their associations with the original individuals who popularized the moves.
 

Retro!

Member
Oct 25, 2017
427
It's been pointed out multiple times that it can, not only in this thread, but several times this shit appeared on news segments today, too.

In specific reference to the Carlton, they literally copied his moves 1:1. Mannerism, posture, and foot placement. It's not like they hired a person to do the dance; they essentially copy/pasted Alfonso from video footage into their rendering engine, turned him into a cartoon, and sold him to millions of people across the world.

They also called it the "Fresh", clearly referencing the show he did it on.

They aren't selling a dance move, they're selling 'The Carlton'. That's the value of it and the reason anyone would buy it

I'm the last person who would ever want to expand copyright law, but it seems absurd to me that they owe nothing to the guy who established all the relevance of a digital dance they're making millions off of
 

Deleted member 9857

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,977
A dangerous precedence for anyone who's involved in dancing in any form, be it music artist, movies that feature dancing, games that use dancing, etc.

Allow simple moves like Milly's, the shoot, floss, etc would set a precedent because as it stands now those kind of simple dances are not copyrightable, which is why virtually anyone can dance and use that dance in music videos, movies, games, any medium that it can be used in.

If you allow people to copyright things that are that simple you open the gate for the music industry to run rampant with that, they will in turn move to own every single dance move that any artists under them does, and then they will enforce those copyrights with full force just like they do with music copyrights.

Who would this hurt? Basically anyone and everyone that isn't signed to a major record label or has permission (or money to license) to use those dance moves. It would effectively stifle the ability for people to dance for fear of being sued. All these up and coming artists that have dancing in their music videos that are shooting on a shoestring budget? Do you think they can afford lawyers and people to ensure the dances they do are free and clear and no one else owns those moves? No, so either they'll do them and then get sued into oblivion if someone owns them or they'll simply choose not to dance at all.

There's a clear reason why currently they do not allow simple dance moves or routines to be copyrighted, because those kinds of steps are building blocks on which you can make actual choreographic works which can be copyrighted.

It would be the equivalent of allowing authors to copyright words, phrases, or sentences, can you see how that would in turn hurt other writers?

yep, a lot of people are being incredibly short-sighted, this is a circumstance where calling this lawsuit a potential slippery slope is quite accurate

instead they're just being "haha screw you Epic! Fortnite sucks!" instead of realizing this would reach far far far beyond just Epic/Fortnite
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,218
yep, a lot of people are being incredibly short-sighted, this is a circumstance where calling this lawsuit a potential slippery slope is quite accurate

instead they're just being "haha screw you Epic! Fortnite sucks!" instead of realizing this would reach far far far beyond just Epic/Fortnite

Yeah, I changed my position having read posts like the one you quoted. For as much as I dislike big brands/companies commercializing or appropriating things like this, it sounds like it would make matters worse.
 

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
I think the grey area here is that Fortnite isn't just making dances. They're clearly selling them based on their associations with the original individuals who popularized the moves.

In a shock to only people who continue to spread baseless "precedent has been set" statements, Retro hits the nail on the head.
 

jrDev

Banned
Mar 2, 2018
1,528
1) I dont play Fortnite and dont care really much about it, so no, I'm not worried about its game design.
2) This is a slippery slope, and corporations will end up abusing it much more than the single sample we see here.
3) It's not HIS stuff. Body movements dont belong to anyone, period.
Not according to copyright law, or are we just going around in circles now lol?
 

Retro!

Member
Oct 25, 2017
427
It's not just body movements. I think they're closer to pop culture references than they are purely dances, and to my knowledge those have the potential to be litigious
 

jrDev

Banned
Mar 2, 2018
1,528
A dangerous precedence for anyone who's involved in dancing in any form, be it music artist, movies that feature dancing, games that use dancing, etc.

Allow simple moves like Milly's, the shoot, floss, etc would set a precedent because as it stands now those kind of simple dances are not copyrightable, which is why virtually anyone can dance and use that dance in music videos, movies, games, any medium that it can be used in.

If you allow people to copyright things that are that simple you open the gate for the music industry to run rampant with that, they will in turn move to own every single dance move that any artists under them does, and then they will enforce those copyrights with full force just like they do with music copyrights.

Who would this hurt? Basically anyone and everyone that isn't signed to a major record label or has permission (or money to license) to use those dance moves. It would effectively stifle the ability for people to dance for fear of being sued. All these up and coming artists that have dancing in their music videos that are shooting on a shoestring budget? Do you think they can afford lawyers and people to ensure the dances they do are free and clear and no one else owns those moves? No, so either they'll do them and then get sued into oblivion if someone owns them or they'll simply choose not to dance at all.

There's a clear reason why currently they do not allow simple dance moves or routines to be copyrighted, because those kinds of steps are building blocks on which you can make actual choreographic works which can be copyrighted.

It would be the equivalent of allowing authors to copyright words, phrases, or sentences, can you see how that would in turn hurt other writers?
I fail to see why an upcoming artist would need to do a popular dance in their video to become known, if this is all you have, it's ridiculous...

Also, people shouldn't forget fair use, just don't use people's stuff to make money and you will be ok. Pretty sure the music industry is fine with it's NECESSARY copyright law.
I think the grey area here is that Fortnite isn't just making dances. They're clearly selling them based on their associations with the original individuals who popularized the moves.
In a shock to only people who continue to spread baseless "precedent has been set" statements, Retro hits the nail on the head.
.
 

Retro!

Member
Oct 25, 2017
427
It's weird seeing people claiming that ruling in favor of the little guy here against the biggest most lucrative video game since League of Legends, would set a dangerous precedent for the little guy going forward
 

jrDev

Banned
Mar 2, 2018
1,528
It's weird seeing people claiming that ruling in favor of the little guy here against the biggest most lucrative video game since League of Legends, would set a dangerous precedent for the little guy going forward
Yup, it makes my head spin when I read such contradictions...
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
It won't stand in court. This is just his/their attempt to try and get a quick settlement. Won't work though.

I think it will stand in court, listen to the copyright lawyer. There certainly could be a case. Epic also done fucked up by going so far as to label the dance as the "Fresh" dance or whatever (an obvious reference to Fresh Prince). Who wins in court I don't know, but to say that there can't be any case made is just wrong IMO.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
MJ doesn't own the moonwalk, and regardless the moonwalk wouldn't be copyrightable, it's a simple step, not a whole choreographed work.



No Michael Jackson's estate doesn't own the moonwalk. However if Epic games had something like a character doing the "crotch grab start" from Billie Jean + the finger point to the crowd + moonwalk and was dumb enough to call it the "MJ Special" or something and tried to sell that as a specific DLC for money ... I think they'd be getting a call from Michael Jackson's estate's legal department in fairly short order.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,821
It's weird seeing people claiming that ruling in favor of the little guy here against the biggest most lucrative video game since League of Legends, would set a dangerous precedent for the little guy going forward

What if in the settlements where these copyrights are accepted, and these artists get paid, Epic buys the rights to these dances and proceeds to try and monetize those rights on youtube and elsewhere. You would be OK with Epic owning these dances and seeking monetization from all media incorporating these dances going forward? A world where youtube's automated algorythm detects several seconds of one of these dances and awards monetization to Epic for all videos it considers infringing? A ruling that you can copyright short dances like this would also be retroactive and I guarantee major media companies could find prior art to secure copyrights for most any dance people could think of in their back extensive back catalogs. There must be millions of hours of choreography footage since the 50s that includes moves similar to all these dances.
 

Strings

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,381
I want to see Courteney Cox or Eddie Murphy get paid dammit:



No I don't. Would be a nightmare scenario to have this shit enforced.
 

Xx 720

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,920
All Epic had to do was give people credit and not rename stuff making it their own, but noooo.
Not that i have any love for Epic, but im sorry, they of course wouldnt be satisfied with credit, they would want to be paid. I certainly would. But it would be abused, legally speaking, just like everything else.
 

TheZjman

Banned
Nov 22, 2018
1,369
Haven't read the whole thread so it may have been talked about already - but is there a reason why he isn't going after Bungie which also has a similar emote. Were they smart enough to request permission or did he quit before The Taken King so didn't know it was added?
 

RagnarokX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,754
I fail to see why an upcoming artist would need to do a popular dance in their video to become known, if this is all you have, it's ridiculous...

Also, people shouldn't forget fair use, just don't use people's stuff to make money and you will be ok. Pretty sure the music industry is fine with it's NECESSARY copyright law.


.
They wouldn't need to do a popular dance. But you're asking to define what's a copyrightable movement to such a miniscule degree that new dances would surely inadvertently contain "moves" that are owned. And already established moves are used as parts of choreographed pieces. Like if you want to do the moonwalk in your music video you can. This is why the current law requires them to be large choreographed pieces and/or moves that can only be done by professionals.

People have brought it up, but dance classes would be in danger of having to pay to teach dance moves.
More litigious copyright holders would strike youtube videos and such trying to monetize if they involve dances.
 

NekoNeko

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,447
Haven't read the whole thread so it may have been talked about already - but is there a reason why he isn't going after Bungie which also has a similar emote. Were they smart enough to request permission or did he quit before The Taken King so didn't know it was added?

they may have asked, we don't know but it has been in tons and tons of games waaay before destiny and after. it's because fortnite is so much bigger than anything and the dances are front and center and even used in marketing for the game. it's also that you can straight up buy the dance while in most games they're either free "eastereggs" or in random lootboxes like destiny that can also be aquired for free.
 

nopattern

Member
Nov 25, 2017
985
This again?

1: he doesn't even own it
2: it's not copywritable, as it's a move

Cue 50 pages of "get paid man", which of course he absolutely won't. They won't even settle. As has been covered a million times.
Yes you can absolutely copyright dance moves. Its really gross how some of you are so deadset on defending these billion dollar companies .
 

jrDev

Banned
Mar 2, 2018
1,528
They wouldn't need to do a popular dance. But you're asking to define what's a copyrightable movement to such a miniscule degree that new dances would surely inadvertently contain "moves" that are owned. And already established moves are used as parts of choreographed pieces. Like if you want to do the moonwalk in your music video you can. This is why the current law requires them to be large choreographed pieces and/or moves that can only be done by professionals.

People have brought it up, but dance classes would be in danger of having to pay to teach dance moves.
More litigious copyright holders would strike youtube videos and such trying to monetize if they involve dances.
Why is this a problem for Dance only? Do piano teachers have this issue?

The point here is, I do NOT see a problem in making people pay for something they don't own...
 

NekoNeko

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,447
what epic should do is just straight up ask these people and put a "popularized by" or "invented by" tag under it and everyone would be fine. people would want to be in the game rather than sueing them. but gotta penny pinch when you're the biggest game on the planet.
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
I fail to see why an upcoming artist would need to do a popular dance in their video to become known, if this is all you have, it's ridiculous...

Also, people shouldn't forget fair use, just don't use people's stuff to make money and you will be ok. Pretty sure the music industry is fine with it's NECESSARY copyright law.
.

It's not about them doing a "popular" dance, it's about them not being able to dance AT ALL because the record companies will eat up a ton of the "basic moves" and then anyone who dances will runt he risks of accidentally using a random move without knowing it's copyrighted.

Fair use is a defense, it works if your work is transformative, IE a parody, commentary, or educational, you are also limited in how much you can use, you can't for example, throw up an entire movie on youtube and then give a quick review at the end and say "it's great."

You can not take someone elses copyrighted work, use it fully, and claim "fair use" if it doesn't meet one of the criteria above, also music videos? Those are made to make money, they get money on youtube (ad revenue).

It's weird seeing people claiming that ruling in favor of the little guy here against the biggest most lucrative video game since League of Legends, would set a dangerous precedent for the little guy going forward

Yup, it makes my head spin when I read such contradictions...

As has been covered countless times in this thread, you can not copyright a dance move, social dances, simple routines, etc.
https://www.businessinsider.com/can-you-copyright-a-dance-move-2018-9?r=UK&IR=T
4:51 in the video, straight from a copyright lawyer.

You can only copyright choreographic works which consist of multiple steps, not just a simple step or two or something that an average general person can easily do.

The kind of dance moves that Milly and others are trying to copyright are too simple,t hey are literally building blocks from which you make a choreographic work upon, you can not copyright these. It's the same as allowing and author to copyright words/phrases/sentences. Can you imagine someone owning "Happily ever after" or "It was a dark and stormy night" and suing anyone else that used those in a book? Do you see how absurd that'd be?

If you allow simple dance moves you are going to open the floodgates where huge record companies will then contract to own all the dances which any artist signed with them does. Then they will in-turn enforce those copyrighted dances in full force EXACTLY like they do with their music/music videos. Go ahead and upload a current mainstream song or video to youtube, see what happens.

Now do you honestly think these record companies will sit idly by while people use copyrighted dance moves? Heck no, they will go after any and everyone that uses them.

These small time/up and coming artist will choose not to dance in their music videos for fear of being sued, because after so long the record companies will basically have a monopoly over so many basic dance moves (which are the building blocks of dancing in general) that the risk of accidentally using a random move could potentially open you up to being sued.

You'll end up having to license the rights to dance moves to dance in a music video or having to hire a lawyer to ensure your "new" dance move isn't already copyrighted. This is something that the "little" person will not be able to afford, so their choice will be:

1. Dance and hope you don't pull off a copyrighted dance move and then get sued for it.
2. Don't dance, ensure you don't risk getting sued.

Now I don't know about you, but music videos without dancing? That would suck.

I'm not sure how anyone can make this more clearer on WHY this is a bad thing for the "little" people. It's not about sticking up for Epic/a game (I think they should give credit for where they get those dances from), it's about not allowing things like this to be copyrighted because of what it would entail after that is allowed.
 

Deleted member 9857

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,977
It's weird seeing people claiming that ruling in favor of the little guy here against the biggest most lucrative video game since League of Legends, would set a dangerous precedent for the little guy going forward

because it won't be the little guys that are copyrighting all the dances moves if this happens
 

jrDev

Banned
Mar 2, 2018
1,528
It's not about them doing a "popular" dance, it's about them not being able to dance AT ALL because the record companies will eat up a ton of the "basic moves" and then anyone who dances will runt he risks of accidentally using a random move without knowing it's copyrighted.

Fair use is a defense, it works if your work is transformative, IE a parody, commentary, or educational, you are also limited in how much you can use, you can't for example, throw up an entire movie on youtube and then give a quick review at the end and say "it's great."

You can not take someone elses copyrighted work, use it fully, and claim "fair use" if it doesn't meet one of the criteria above, also music videos? Those are made to make money, they get money on youtube (ad revenue).





As has been covered countless times in this thread, you can not copyright a dance move, social dances, simple routines, etc.
https://www.businessinsider.com/can-you-copyright-a-dance-move-2018-9?r=UK&IR=T
4:51 in the video, straight from a copyright lawyer.

You can only copyright choreographic works which consist of multiple steps, not just a simple step or two or something that an average general person can easily do.

The kind of dance moves that Milly and others are trying to copyright are too simple,t hey are literally building blocks from which you make a choreographic work upon, you can not copyright these. It's the same as allowing and author to copyright words/phrases/sentences. Can you imagine someone owning "Happily ever after" or "It was a dark and stormy night" and suing anyone else that used those in a book? Do you see how absurd that'd be?

If you allow simple dance moves you are going to open the floodgates where huge record companies will then contract to own all the dances which any artist signed with them does. Then they will in-turn enforce those copyrighted dances in full force EXACTLY like they do with their music/music videos. Go ahead and upload a current mainstream song or video to youtube, see what happens.

Now do you honestly think these record companies will sit idly by while people use copyrighted dance moves? Heck no, they will go after any and everyone that uses them.

These small time/up and coming artist will choose not to dance in their music videos for fear of being sued, because after so long the record companies will basically have a monopoly over so many basic dance moves (which are the building blocks of dancing in general) that the risk of accidentally using a random move could potentially open you up to being sued.

You'll end up having to license the rights to dance moves to dance in a music video or having to hire a lawyer to ensure your "new" dance move isn't already copyrighted. This is something that the "little" person will not be able to afford, so their choice will be:

1. Dance and hope you don't pull off a copyrighted dance move and then get sued for it.
2. Don't dance, ensure you don't risk getting sued.

Now I don't know about you, but music videos without dancing? That would suck.

I'm not sure how anyone can make this more clearer on WHY this is a bad thing for the "little" people. It's not about sticking up for Epic/a game (I think they should give credit for where they get those dances from), it's about not allowing things like this to be copyrighted because of what it would entail after that is allowed.
What? Plenty of GREAT music videos without dancing lol! This is a terrible argument! Pay for something you don't own or don't do it at all...this should be true across ALL art forms!

PS: The Music industry is doing fine, the little guys in the music industry are doing fine (and guess what, their work is copyrighted so if they need to be paid for using their stuff, they should be)...
because it won't be the little guys that are copyrighting all the dances moves if this happens
Is this post a reference to some fact?
 

Descapp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
114
The main problem I see with the emotes is that they're not only the same dance moves, but they seem to be almost copied frame by frame from the original, so 'it's only body movement, it can't be copyrighted' doesn't apply here. That and that they're selling them.
 

Deleted member 9857

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,977
Is this post a reference to some fact?

critical thinking and a basic understanding of how the music industry has managed copyrights in the past

the RIAA has always been extremely litigious, why would you think the little person is going to be the one that gets the copyright? even in this case if this was copyrightable it's HIGHLY unlikely that Alfonso Ribeiro would have been the one to end up with said copyright, more likely it would have ended up held by either Quincy Jones or NBC Studios
 

Cokie Bear

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,944
Do you understand what I was answering with that post?

"Just insane now that human movements are considered copyright breaches" - Referring to people trying to sue for copying a dance move
"Is insane how music notes are considered copyright breaches " - Referring to ???

Has anyone tried to sue someone else for using a musical note they used? Where's the joke here?
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
What? Plenty of GREAT music videos without dancing lol! This is a terrible argument! Pay for something you don't own or don't do it at all...this should be true across ALL art forms!

PS: The Music industry is doing fine, the little guys in the music industry are doing fine (and guess what, their work is copyrighted so if they need to be paid for using their stuff, they should be)...

Is this post a reference to some fact?

I can't even tell if you're being serious now.

So you would be A-OK if we had music videos and no longer had dancing allowed in many of them (outside of those that could afford to pay for the dancing)? Do you understand how important dancing goes with music in general?

You're literally advocating for record companies (not the artists, because the record companies would do that just like they own the artists songs and the artists don't) to own simple common dance moves, dance moves that are used and built upon to make more complicated dances and works.

Can you imagine someone owning the Robot and NO ONE being able to use it unless they paid the creator to do so? That is frankly absurd.
 

jrDev

Banned
Mar 2, 2018
1,528
critical thinking and a basic understanding of how the music industry has managed copyrights in the past

the RIAA has always been extremely litigious, why would you think the little person is going to be the one that gets the copyright? even in this case if this was copyrightable it's HIGHLY unlikely that Alfonso Ribeiro would have been the one to end up with said copyright, more likely it would have ended up held by either Quincy Jones or NBC Studios
This post proves nothing I'm sorry...the little guys do copyright their music right? Indie studios copyright their art right?
I can't even tell if you're being serious now.

So you would be A-OK if we had music videos and no longer had dancing allowed in many of them (outside of those that could afford to pay for the dancing)? Do you understand how important dancing goes with music in general?

You're literally advocating for record companies (not the artists, because the record companies would do that just like they own the artists songs and the artists don't) to own simple common dance moves, dance moves that are used and built upon to make more complicated dances and works.

Can you imagine someone owning the Robot and NO ONE being able to use it unless they paid the creator to do so? That is frankly absurd.
I'm being serious. Pay the people for their work. The musical artists you are referring to are making millions of dollars, they chose the sign on the piece of paper to not own their music...they didn't have to.

As I said, the music industry is thriving pretty fine the way it's setup! When Robin Thicke got sued for Blurred Lines rip, that was just and he deserves it.
 
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