"How am I xenophobic," asked the person writing "muh religious beliefs" about a completely innocuous and harmless practice by a person from a different culture
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Algerian woman denied French citizenship over [refused] handshake
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"How am I xenophobic," asked the person writing "muh religious beliefs" about a completely innocuous and harmless practice by a person from a different culture
Wakanda would have outright denied any citizenship whatsoever. Just because we're talking about an African country doesn't make Wakanda relevant. Mainly because they don't give a shit about foreigners.This is why Wakanda is the future
OT: No winners here, dumb religious beliefs or dumb traditions. Surprised to see a lot of people supporting her in her belief given how backwards it is. I would be upset if this was a man saying he couldn't shake a woman's hand that wasn't his wife/relative/whatever so I feel I should at least remain consistent in this.
But should she not be given citizenship over it? Probably not.
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You still have to do an interview and there's still a decision process.
She got through all that but "you didn't want to touch this man's hand, clearly you are not fit to be a french citizen!"
It's complete nonsense.
Well technically that's actually forbidden in Islam considering the oath of allegiance (bay'ah) can only be made to a Muslim ruler lol.
Which culture is she from? And just so you understand, Islam doesn'T forbid women from shaking hands with men
just so we're on the same page
That's called "failing the test"
You, and the government of France are intolerant of certain cultures and cultural practices that don't affect you in any way. That's what I'd say, if it makes you feel better.
I'm sorry what?
"1 – Islam (i.e., the ruler should be a Muslim), because this is a condition of testimony being acceptable and guardianship being valid, which are much less serious issues than rulership. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): "And never will Allaah grant to the disbelievers a way (to triumph) over the believers" [al-Nisa' 4:141]. And rulership, as Ibn al-Qayyim said, is the greatest of such ways. And he is to take care of the interests of the Muslims. End quote.
Based on this, it is not permissible to swear allegiance to a kaafir ruler, and if the ruler becomes a kaafir then he should be deposed, according to the conditions that are known to the scholars. "
https://islamqa.info/en/82681
Your link is dead by the way
Such cultural practices have no place in the french society
So I'm fine with it.
Well I dunno homie I would assume from your posts that you're not Algerian yourself
My family are Nizari Ismailis. They don't pray five times a day, they don't face East. Guess what? They're still Muslims. Because (as I have explained twice now in this thread) Islam isn't some monolithic entity where every person believes the exact same thing. Just so you understand.
Then this is like failing an English test because half of the questions were about Chemistry.
Then I call the test nonsense because it's not testing for what it claims to test.
Then you tell me the teacher has the right to set the test up however he or she likes.
Then I tell you, yes, but the test is still nonsense.
"Such cultural practices have no place in Chinese society.
So I'm fine with it."
See how weird that sounds?
Her culture (Algerian" has nothing to do with her stance (not shaking hands).
I'm Alawi, we don'T have mosques, we drink alcohol and have gold /shrug also, we can live in a modern socity where men and women are on equal footing.
Just so we're on the same page
If the practice is refusing to touch someone from the opposing sex, nope.
Edit : fixed the last sentence with what I intended
No please that does not make sense. lol
Ehh. I am often in Asia for business and yes I have to respect the culture and depending on where I am I am expected to follow their rules like NOT shaking hands, NOT looking into eyes, doing a small Thai greeting e.g. etc. and I am expected to do that and respect them. I am not forcing them to shake my hands even though that would be my rule for respect. I expect people to shake my hand like in Germany but when I am in over there I follow their rules.
How does rejecting a handshake imply, in any way, that a potential citizen has not assimilated?
I would understand if there was a preponderance of actions she made that led them to that decision but she was denied citizenship for this one thing.
First the stupid hip hop and bitches thread, now this. Too many people on this forum willing to excuse sexism and misogyny.
The male insecurities written into some belief systems are both horrible and grimly fascinating.
Imagine being raised or programmed to believe so deeply that you lack the basic human integrity and agency to have formal or informal non-romantic contact with a man who isn't your husband.
Perhaps 'owner' or 'master' is the better phrase to use to describe the male member of these kinds of partnerships.
Imagine being raised or programmed to believe so deeply that you lack the basic human integrity and agency to have formal or informal non-romantic contact with a man who isn't your husband.
Perhaps 'owner' or 'master' is the better phrase to use to describe the male member of these kinds of partnerships.
Okay here's the archive link: https://archive.islamonline.net/?p=978
Seems more credible than whatever Muslim Quora clone you linked tbh
So, in other words different people from different cultures practice Islam in different ways which is what I am trying to explain to you
It's more like failing an English test because you didn't turn it in at the end.
And what I'm telling you is that not all forms are welcome.
Which, to bring it around to the beginning, is literally what xenophobia is. We did it! Thank you.
It's most like expelling the Jehovah's Witness kid from school because his religion says he can't take part in the Pledge of Allegiance
This isn'T what Xenophobia means
Xeno = foreigner
Phobia = fear/hate
There's neither fear/hate nor a foreign dimension here. Intolerance towards religous fundamentalism is what it is, thank you
Not accepting misogynist practices is xenophobia. Got it. Thanks.
Not accepting people from different cultural contexts because of their religious practices that don't actually hurt anyone other than (arguably) themselves is indeed xenophobia, sorry.
I sincerely hope ResetEra gets better about sexism and misogyny soon - until then, I'm out.
Admins, please permaban me. Thanks.
The rule is that men and women cannot touch each other unless they're married. Isn't that more prudish than sexist?
They hurt themselves and their children if they do have some.
Yes if you take it by itself, but those religious convictions aren't in a vacuum, they're a part of a larger set of core values who're clashing with sex equality.
Except there are all kinds of religious fundamentalists from religions where you can shake hands, so this is actually specifically a thing about fundamentalist Muslims. And not even all fundamentalist Muslims, since apparently this woman was good to go if not for the handshake thing. Seems wildly inconsistent to me.
You're the one who derailed it by positing a student deliberately choosing to fail, not involuntarily being failed because some arbitrary rule unconnected to the test itself violates their religious beliefs.
Why is assimilation in this way necessary? Does entry into French society require the subject to succumb to the bootheel of Frank society?
You (and others) seem to think the mere preference of the French government is enough, and indeed justification for rejecting citizenship. We use the word "assimilation" in America too, but I've stopped using it because the word seems to imply people should "correct" themselves to WASP culture in order to become American. Enforcing cultural norms like this is- whether intended or not, a functional means of discrimination. It is akin to banning afros or cornrows in the workplace, or (with more relevance to France) banning veils. People should be able to exist as full citizens in ANY country with their personal cultural practices intact without exception. Period. Anything else is against the project of western liberalism in my view.
How exactly is it less "credible" than your source that doesn't even pull a single hadith or Qur'an verse as the basis to the answer they give? "Some dude said this..." Ok. I am talking specifically about the oath of allegiance to a non muslim ruler. If you want to be super pious and follow the religion in its strictest interpretation, than yes an oath of allegiance to a non Muslim ruler is haram. But since people compromise, find solutions for their particular situations, and the fact that the religion itself as I said is very accommodating, this isn't a hurdle for most Muslims living in the west. Just like a hand shake during a citizenship ceremony shouldn't be a hurdle for this woman.
They're saying that women are taught to be prudish by a patriarcal society that wants to oppress and control them
That's what they're saying is sexist
lol
Who's more likely to grow up to be a repressed Muslim woman: a woman who grew up in France or one who grew up in Algeria?
Then I'm not seeing how that's incongruous with French society lol
Is France some patriarchy-free utopia?
That is no business of the government's as long as they are not enforcing that on other people. At least it shouldn't be.
I didn't say anything about them deliberately choosing to fail, I just said they didn't turn in the test.
There's no need to fabricate a narrative. Your interpretation only works if you assume the woman set out to get declined, which I don't think anyone honestly believes.
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Honestly as a muslim, who lived in a muslim country the majority of my life, this is not Islamic fundamentalism at all. I didn't shake women's hands for years, not because I thought they were inferior, nor because I was a fundamentalist, because it's a cultural norm, and I thought people would be more comfortable with this.
Not even all muslims do this, there is a whole bunch of variety.
Please let people do what they want, this isn't hurting anybody, but further marginalizing muslims.
It's definitely pretty over the line, in my opinion. There are like hundreds of millions of Pentecostal Christians in the world who have modesty beliefs about how revealing their clothes can be, and it's pretty creepy to me to end a citizenship test with "now dudes/women, let us end the ceremony with the donning of the ceremonial speedo/bikini." Like, it's obviously not a big deal, but one party has a strong belief about it and the other party doesn't (or shouldn't anyway; it's kinda creepy to me to be super butthurt about a snubbed handshake).
I say all of this as an atheist. I think pretty much all ceremonies are weird and creepy (religious or not), so from my point of view, France seems to also be taking a religious stance here.
Depends on what you consider repressed.
With Algeria being primarly a Muslim country, being Muslim isn't going to be viewed in a negative way. However, being a woman is extremely hard. For example, violence against women has been criminalized less than 3 years ago. And that was with a heated debate over whether or not the law would be against Quran's teaching.
So then the argument that it hurts the children doesn't really apply to the immigration question, because those children are better off in France than in Algeria.
I didn't say it was. But like anything in extreme, it bears strange fruits. Like with secularism, when you start preaching it so much and with such self righteousness, that you go of the deep end and find your head disappearing inside your own ass.
Not if they end up in the same circles which can be found in France.
It's pretty common in France, or at least the part where I stay to shake hands in the morning at work.
Every time someone came to my area at work they'd shake hands with everyone in my area if they hadn't done so that day already.
So I'm not surprised if she failed because of a cultural norm.
I'm wondering if she objects to the kissing of the cheek thing the French do? I can imagine that would be frowned upon too by her.
Every time someone came to my area at work they'd shake hands with everyone in my area if they hadn't done so that day already.
So I'm not surprised if she failed because of a cultural norm.
I'm wondering if she objects to the kissing of the cheek thing the French do? I can imagine that would be frowned upon too by her.
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