Truly not at all surprising the turn this thread has taken tbh
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Algerian woman denied French citizenship over [refused] handshake
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Truly not at all surprising the turn this thread has taken tbh
Yes she is already living here and she's not getting deported over this.
To be honest I don't know how denying someone's citizenship because of dated views on men and women is any worse than denying someone because they failed a history test or whatever.
Yeah in that sense I guess it's better. These are actual actions, instead of some of the really dubious factoids in the integration test.
If you want to live like in the middle ages it's better to take a country that also lives in the middle ages. France is not one of them.
I believe it was a dumb behaviour on both sides. Cant help it. Shaking hands "Not religious" is just a bad excuse and it was also a Bad excuse for Not letting her Stay.
Can she not stay? I was under the assumption she was a legal resident.
But like... no one is doing that ? She's been living here legally for years and she will continue to do so, she was denied citizenship, not the right to live here.
This particular woman not wanting to be touched by a man doesn't mean she thinks men and women are unequal.
Well she clearly doesn't want to handshake a man so man and woman are unequal to her, that straight logic.
Unless she is the reincarnation of Howard Hugues and is afraid of bacteria and doesn't handshake anyone...
Are u also supporting bakery refusing selling cake to gay people?
I guess she can until she gets eventually a Divorce.
In switzerland you have to go back to your country After a Divorce. You can only Stay if you were born There
I actually side with France on this one. It might be petty but once you start using 'what tolerance is this if you don't tolerate my bullshit', you enter a slippery slope of tolerating extreme views at the expense of a just and welcoming society. There has to be a line drawn and if it's a handshake to show that you assimilated to French society, then so be it.
I mean, you got to pledge to a freaking flag here in the USA to gain Citizenship. If your religion forbids it, something you choose to do, then you should try gaining citizenship somewhere else.
I mean, you got to pledge to a freaking flag here in the USA to gain Citizenship. If your religion forbids it, something you choose to do, then you should try gaining citizenship somewhere else.
She's been residing here for years and has french children, she's not going anywhere.
Good. If you can't make this tiny compromise on your religion, you're not willing to integrate. We're talking about a secularized country here, your religious beliefs and customs have no place in a public or official setting. Religion is a private matter, she obviously didn't understand this.
Where does it say they're not letting her stay? You don't need citizenship to stay in France. IIRC it's like in Germany where you can get permanent residence permits and can basically stay in the country forever without citizenship.
Where does it say they're not letting her stay? You don't need citizenship to stay in France. IIRC it's like in Germany where you can get permanent residence permits and can basically stay in the country forever without citizenship.
She appealed. She knew full well what she was getting into after that.
Upthread you can read about how the United States makes exceptions to the oath requirement for certain religious groups already
It´s never the host country´s obligation to compromise their principles and they should not.
Maybe i didnt Read it correctly. Thats said... Iam from Germany moving to switzerland soon.
She is married and(someone claimed) has children. She can absolutely stay, I think this is more about certain rights (voting, perhaps some kind of tax or welfare benefit,...) that are limited to citizens. Heck, maybe it's just to feel fully accepted, which would make this sadder.
But yeah, nothing indicates she'd get deported.
We had a case kinda similar to that in Denmark a few years back where a taxi driver refused to shake the hand of a woman who was an executive at the taxi firm, after a meeting on selecting a team of drivers to drive especially important customers.
The female executive felt that the taxi driver couldn't be on this team because he wouldn't shake her hand and stipulated that this could cause harm with female customers in the future and cause the firm to be viewed on a negative way by priority customers.
The taxi driver, a Danish citizen who is the son of immigrants that came to Denmark, felt the he was being discriminated against on the grounds of his religion and went on to win a $1500 compensation since a court ruled in his favor.
Personally I believe the female executive was right in her decision since the taxi driver was using religion to discriminate against women in general and it could turn into a big issue with their customers. Religion should never allow anyone to discriminate against others, it's not compatible with a modern world and should be frowned upon.
As to this case, it's a rough penalty for her to receive, but on the other side it does indicate a certain unwillingness for the person to integrate with the society she wish to be a part of and the country(France) should not allow immigrants they don't believe will try to be proper citizens.
The female executive felt that the taxi driver couldn't be on this team because he wouldn't shake her hand and stipulated that this could cause harm with female customers in the future and cause the firm to be viewed on a negative way by priority customers.
The taxi driver, a Danish citizen who is the son of immigrants that came to Denmark, felt the he was being discriminated against on the grounds of his religion and went on to win a $1500 compensation since a court ruled in his favor.
Personally I believe the female executive was right in her decision since the taxi driver was using religion to discriminate against women in general and it could turn into a big issue with their customers. Religion should never allow anyone to discriminate against others, it's not compatible with a modern world and should be frowned upon.
As to this case, it's a rough penalty for her to receive, but on the other side it does indicate a certain unwillingness for the person to integrate with the society she wish to be a part of and the country(France) should not allow immigrants they don't believe will try to be proper citizens.
Only when her religious beliefs are affront to the society that she is trying to be a part of.
So much assumptions over one single fact presented by the article... and you know what else is harmful? Prejudice and generalization.
In other news, this woman not compromising like many others did before her is surprising to say the least, but at the end of the day she still has residency which minus the right to vote is almost equivalent to having a nationality, she isn't going anywhere unlike what people are assuming in this thread.
If she's too Muslim to be French, then people should just come out and say so
If you are applying for citizenship she probably have permanent resident status.
She we live until she like in France, she just wont be living there as France citizen.
Witch while you are certain losing something, day to day life it's mostly pretty much the same.
Yeah man it's definitely because she's Muslim, totally not because her oh so precious religion barring her from even *a handshake*.
It isn't even her "religion"- not all Muslims believe and live by the exact same things. So the "Islamophobia!" argument is fallacious.
I find it ridiculous that people cannot accept religious beliefs can be taken too far.
How do you feel about people who were born in France who have this religious belief
I believe that at some point, your personal religious beliefs don't have to be entertained by others. Especially if they're sexist.
The entire point is that a handshake isn't a big deal.
She isn't *even able to shake a man's hand*. That's just how extreme her religious beliefs are.
Her choice. It's France's choice to not allow someone citizenship if they have such beliefs.
Gotta love how, to some people, you only need your beliefs to be religious to demand everyone and everything to honor your wishes.
I have no problems with this.
And I do not believe this is particularly targeting Muslims (regular Muslims) in any way. Since the 70s hundreds of thousands (perhaps even millions) of Algerians and other North Africans have naturalised and become French citizens. Both men and women and presumably a big share of them were Muslim too. They did not have any problems shaking hands, I cannot see why France should make an exception for this woman.
If millions have done it before, why can't she? She's not the first Muslim nor the first Algerian to request the citizenship. It's all on her.
As others have said, if she is holding such a hard stance on something as simple as a 3-second handshake, what else will she be unwilling to compromise on? Will she be against her future children sharing spaces with boys at school? Will she teach them that LGBT people are not deserving of respect? Will she force religious clothing on them?
Furthermore, I cannot help to wonder if such extreme views ("don't even shake hands at your naturalisation ceremony!") aren't being pushed by a radicalised partner. In my opinion, the husband should be investigated.
And I do not believe this is particularly targeting Muslims (regular Muslims) in any way. Since the 70s hundreds of thousands (perhaps even millions) of Algerians and other North Africans have naturalised and become French citizens. Both men and women and presumably a big share of them were Muslim too. They did not have any problems shaking hands, I cannot see why France should make an exception for this woman.
If millions have done it before, why can't she? She's not the first Muslim nor the first Algerian to request the citizenship. It's all on her.
As others have said, if she is holding such a hard stance on something as simple as a 3-second handshake, what else will she be unwilling to compromise on? Will she be against her future children sharing spaces with boys at school? Will she teach them that LGBT people are not deserving of respect? Will she force religious clothing on them?
Furthermore, I cannot help to wonder if such extreme views ("don't even shake hands at your naturalisation ceremony!") aren't being pushed by a radicalised partner. In my opinion, the husband should be investigated.
People have explained their stances on this decisions thourougly, so why do you keep coming with these disingenous posts and "tell us what you really think"-esque bait attempts trying to paint people as Islamophobes?
Let's be real, if it was a neo-nazi not shaking an hand of a jew or a woman because he considered them "different" the opinions on this would be way different on here.
They're the same thing to me. If equality is not something you're willing to accept, you're not entitled to citizenship of places which value it and you're not gonna vote in them.
They're the same thing to me. If equality is not something you're willing to accept, you're not entitled to citizenship of places which value it and you're not gonna vote in them.
They're free to do as they want because they're already french but if you want to be a part of a community/country, you need to make an effort to follow their rules, it's how it works.
Because those stances are patently xenophobic lol
edit - also with the last guy i'm just making fun of his ability to contradict himself within one sentence
That's a very interesting component to this that I feel is being overlooked. And it makes me ask... why? Why does she get to keep her residency?
What I mean by that is the reason to deny her citizenship seems to be that her refusing to do a handshake is a clear indication that cannot integrate or completely assimilate with French norms and customs. Which might be all well and good and is the right of the French government to decide, but it immediately raises the question: doesn't that all still remain the truth as a non-citizen? That she still can't properly assimilate with French society? That still remains true as a non-citizen, since that's the reason it was denied, correct? ...Then why let her stay in France at all if that's the case? Why not deport her?
Of course to be clear there both can and should be room in between denying citizenship and full-on deportation. But in this particular case, the denial of citizenship is over the unlikeliness of her being able to successfully integrate into French society. With that presumably being a concern being failure to properly integrate with society would make her a potential threat to both herself and others. That doesn't magically disappear and cease to be true just because she's not granted citizenship. Her likeliness of successfully or unsuccessfully integrating into French society doesn't magically just go away or anything.
So what I'm getting at is why, in this particular situation, is this woman's unlikeliness to successfully integrate into French society enough to have serious concerns about granting her citizenship, but suddenly not enough to kick her out? Why is proper integration a serious concern for granting citizenship, but suddenly inconsequential for living as a non-citizen. If that's indeed the concern, if that's indeed what's going on here, shouldn't something like that in fact be more than enough to cross the line and not just deny citizenship, but enough to grant deportation? If prospects of integration are really the concern?
Of course, this is not actually an argument that this woman should be deported. At least I don't mean it that way and don't mean anything of the sort, myself. What I am arguing here is that her not being deported over this and nonetheless being allowed to continue living in France as a non-citizen makes it rather tenuous that concerns over integration or assimilation into French society are the real concerns here because those by any reason should be quite enough to not only deny citizenship, but flat-out deport her, due to the potential harm she could cause to herself or others if that's indeed the case, concerns that don't go away or are in any way solved or mitigated whatsoever by simply denying her citizenship (if anything, denying her citizenship but nonetheless allowing her to remain in the country makes it more likely that some type of complications could arise at some point or another due to being stuck in that kind of limbo in-between situation and her lack of rights compared to full French-citizens, especially if her identity ends up being leaked eventually and recognized as a result of this story gets out there and she begins to be harassed or discriminated against in any way because of it in the future. That certainly isn't an unlikely possibility unfortunately and such occurrences definitely would not make integration any easier).
That that's not what's happening here makes me personally question that and tremendously weakens that particular argument, and makes it much more likely that something such as xenophobia (likely systematic and not fully conscious or intentional xenophobia, but all the same) is the driving force behind this particular decision.
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You're confusing xenophobia with arrogance
By your logic we might as well demand countries to allow people who think all girls have to be veiled and mustn't be taken to school, amirite
Because religious beliefs are all totally valid and can't be bigoted, wrong or harmful. No sir. All Muslims are totally nice, pure, clean people that just can't help but feel they cannot shake someone's hand because of their gender.
Edit: The question asking why she keeps her permanent residence is a more interesting one.
One possible reason is its legality. It doesn't make much sense to legitimize deportation over a failed citizenship application. Probably difficult to criminalize and prosecute instances of sexism like this, as well. (Particularly sexism on religious grounds, which steps on many toes, it seems.)
Another reason is that possibly, France simply doesn't want people with such ideals to vote.
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Would you give American citizenship if someone refuse to swear to oath of allegiance? Whole or part of it?
I see women who "just refuse to shake a hand" very often through work and the bolded in particular is an issue, swimming lessons specifically are always difficult (we're talking about children aged 6 to 8 here btw, tell me again how healthy of a view that is).
If a Buddhist or a Christian had refused to shake hands with the official in the name of religious beliefs just because he is a male, the result would have been the same. I know it doesn't fit into your narrative but it's not specifically about Islam.
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