Alita: Battle Angel |OT| Mobile Suit Gunnm.

Colloco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
336
florida
......I tend to be sensitive to this sort of thing, but this wasn't AT ALL what I got from that scene. The orange and chocolate stuff seemed meant to show that Alita is very childlike and hasn't enjoyed a lot of experiences that are normal on earth, like eating something sugary. It wasn't like she associated chocolate with the guy, since she also asked her father figure if he had any chocolate. She just liked the taste. Tons of people do -- it doesn't have to be something sinister.
thats what i got as well, it was meant to show how innocent she was.
 

Kin5290

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,452
......I tend to be sensitive to this sort of thing, but this wasn't AT ALL what I got from that scene. The orange and chocolate stuff seemed meant to show that Alita is very childlike and hasn't enjoyed a lot of experiences that are normal on earth, like eating something sugary. It wasn't like she associated chocolate with the guy, since she also asked her father figure if he had any chocolate. She just liked the taste. Tons of people do -- it doesn't have to be something sinister.
So she’s the Born Sexy Yesterday trope.
i think this is the first time where im actually agreeing with the whole critics having a "marvel bias"

Alita was just as good if not a better popcorn flick than captain marvel, it should have recevied similar ratings IMO
Alita was a mess of a film that had some good moments and some other anchors weighing down the film. It also lasted far longer than it should have, even if some of the action bits were technically well done.

Captain Marvel was actually well constructed as a movie and the female lead’s dynamic with her male opposite was not utterly dire. Add to that all of its feminist themes and smart plotting and it is by far the better film.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
4,274
i think this is the first time where im actually agreeing with the whole critics having a "marvel bias"

Alita was just as good if not a better popcorn flick than captain marvel, it should have recevied similar ratings IMO
I'm a massive Alita fanboy and I simply can't get behind this at all. Cameron's dialogue can be painfully bad and the source material for Alita wasn't amazing to begin with.
 

Curler

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,176
Alita struck a chord with me more than Captain Marvel. It just was not a Marvel movie I enjoyed as much as others. Not the best, not the worst, but usual Marvel formula.

Alita, I think the best we can hope for is Cameron's persuasion and money, help foot a sequel. Fans have been passionate and so is he, and I hope he sees it. Blu ray/DVD sales can help contribute too! I plan on getting it on 4k day 1.
 

Colloco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
336
florida
So she’s the Born Sexy Yesterday trope.

Alita was a mess of a film that had some good moments and some other anchors weighing down the film. It also lasted far longer than it should have, even if some of the action bits were technically well done.

Captain Marvel was actually well constructed as a movie and the female lead’s dynamic with her male opposite was not utterly dire. Add to that all of its feminist themes and smart plotting and it is by far the better film.
I would argue captain marvel was just as messy, but for different reasons. No particular style or flair, the film was kind of a drag in that sense, it seemed like a generic sci fi film.
You dont really get a chance to connect to carol danvers as a character, she starts off as a stoic mysterious warrior and pretty much finishes the film in the same way, also, the relationship with her ex co pilot was sloppily done.

This is coming from a huge marvel fanboy and someone who sees every marvel film first day, i was looking forward to captain marvel, and it was fine, so was alita, however, the diffrence is, alita was incredibly unique.

I feel we give a bit more credit to MCU marvel films just because they belong in that "world"
 

Lotus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,548
Alita was a mess of a film that had some good moments and some other anchors weighing down the film. It also lasted far longer than it should have, even if some of the action bits were technically well done.

Captain Marvel was actually well constructed as a movie and the female lead’s dynamic with her male opposite was not utterly dire. Add to that all of its feminist themes and smart plotting and it is by far the better film.
It's funny, because I had somewhat lower expectations going in for Captain Marvel, whereas it was higher for Alita since some people apparently really liked it (Also the only reason I ended up watching it), but that all switched after having seen both.

A sequel would probably impress me a lot more, but at the same time I'm not particularly bothered if it never gets one.
 

Loona

Member
Oct 29, 2017
583
So she’s the Born Sexy Yesterday trope.
Not really - the focus is way more on her point of view than any male character's, a bit part of her her early story is her establishing her autonomy, quite defiantly at times, and the relationship with I do in the movie is even more parental than in the manga. That's further elaborated on here:

 

Seeya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,111
So she’s the Born Sexy Yesterday trope.

Alita was a mess of a film that had some good moments and some other anchors weighing down the film. It also lasted far longer than it should have, even if some of the action bits were technically well done.

Captain Marvel was actually well constructed as a movie and the female lead’s dynamic with her male opposite was not utterly dire. Add to that all of its feminist themes and smart plotting and it is by far the better film.
Alita has a ton of feminist themes and in no way is it born sexy yesterday. It subverts that pretty deftly, even calling it out. Maybe they needed to be more obvious about it by blaring ‘I’m just a girl’ at some point ;) I’d also say that Alita is a far better structured character than Captain Marvel ended up being and that counts for a lot.
 

Kin5290

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,452
Alita has a ton of feminist themes and in no way is it born sexy yesterday. It subverts that pretty deftly, even calling it out. Maybe they needed to be more obvious about it by blaring ‘I’m just a girl’ at some point ;) I’d also say that Alita is a far better structured character than Captain Marvel ended up being and that counts for a lot.
Alita is so feminist that she is primarily defined and motivated by the men in her life, her quasi-father figure and her lover. Color me oh so impressed.

Also the idea that Alita is a better structured character is completely laughable. Her rediscovery of self is incredibly poorly paced and anemic, and she has little agency in it. Carol decides to investigate her flashbacks. It’s Hugo’s ripper crew that brings her to the URM wreck.
We also get plenty of time to see Alita's origins. Carol's were sloppily done to say the least.
What origins? Some CGI fight scenes with an anonymous mentor type with vague motivations and no characterization? Mar-Vell is actually a character.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,580
Canada
Alita is so feminist that she is primarily defined and motivated by the men in her life, her quasi-father figure and her lover. Color me oh so impressed.

Also the idea that Alita is a better structured character is completely laughable. Her rediscovery if self is incredibly poorly paced and anemic, and she has little agency in it. Carol decides to investigate her flashbacks. It’s Hugo’s ripper crew that brings her to the URM wreck.
You might be asking a lot from the source at this point. It's an old comic from the 90s written by a Japanese dude; and while I find the manga is still pretty "clean", it's still gonna have a perspective...

The URM thing is reading into it a lot (and in the manga it was Ido who found the wreckage even before he found Alita and spared her from even having to travel down there ... sooo...? take that feminists? ------ I don't think that's big a plot point).

I get what you're saying, but as a high-powered feminist myself I found Alita endearing and bright (which is nice since a lot of the times being a female lead in an action movie means having an icy personality). I think she's a great representation of female fighters (admittedly, we don't have a deep bench).

Alita, at first and more than anything, is about her innocence and need to do the right thing as she quickly gets steeped into the harsh realities of the world. Yes this is a trope that is typically played out with doe-eyed women (part of that "born sexy yesterday" idea), but at least Alita has the fight to back up most of her actions and come on top (she isn't really sexualized [in the movie] either). The "Supreme Being" in the Fifth Element still needed undershirt-wearing-man-hero Bruce Willis to get her out of trouble a bunch of times.

But anyways. Alita gets a father she seems to really like and treats her lovingly; she fell in love because these sorts of feelings are wonderful; and she helps people out because she's strong enough to act on doing the right thing. But her father can't protect her from everything (because she's driven to explore things that might be dangerous), her first love was willing to betray her, and all her strength still doesn't immediately get her to the literal and metaphoric top (Zalom).

I actually love the Hugo plot in that it's a nice twist to falling for the first idiot who treats you nicely. I'm sure a lot of young and naive girls have had issues in this vein to some extent.

You're fine to say it's poorly plotted and paced (most graphic/novel adaptations are), but I didn't read the story as overtly and constantly problematic than incidental of the story they're telling.
 
Last edited:

Seeya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,111
Alita is so feminist that she is primarily defined and motivated by the men in her life, her quasi-father figure and her lover. Color me oh so impressed.

Also the idea that Alita is a better structured character is completely laughable. Her rediscovery of self is incredibly poorly paced and anemic, and she has little agency in it. Carol decides to investigate her flashbacks. It’s Hugo’s ripper crew that brings her to the URM wreck.
That’s external circumstance, what I’m talking about is Alita’s internal consistency as a character.

I think a part of the confusion comes from Alita being a coming of age story and people viewing that in a less charitable lens than they would otherwise because of how adjacent it ends up being to played out tropes, thus making those distinctions harder to see.

She’s not this doe eyed naive girl for the purpose of being educated and ‘contained’ by the men in her life. She’s not there to be viewed through other characters eyes like Leelo or what have you. She is the main character growing and changing that the audience reacts along with.

She’s falling for the first moron who is nice to her because that’s kind of what everyone does at that age. She seeks out and has a father figure because that makes sense for her at that age in a coming of age story. But the story is not of her indoctrination and subservience into ‘daddy knows best’ it’s about how she stays true to HER convictions and how that effects and changes the characters around her as she grows beyond the limitations of what those support networks are initially willing to ‘allow’. With the truth being that it is up to them to keep up with her, not them ‘allowing’ anything more as a temporary phase.

It’s even more explicit in the manga that her dad would like nothing more than to keep her ‘pure’ and ‘safe’ and she grows well beyond him. The movie takes a softer approach, but him giving her the combat body isn’t ‘the man of her life saving her’ it’s ‘he realizes that she’s right’. He could have given her any body but he gives her that one, what is hers and he should have given to her all along because he realizes that she’s right and he had not the right to keep it from her.

Like the MANGA EVEN OUTRIGHT Lampshades ‘born sexy yesterday’ later on when she gets subjected to a false reality where she decided to stay with him and be nothing more than his little dress up doll.

Personally I didn’t need the manga (which I’ve never read) to view the film with a charitable lens, but my viewpoint was reinforced by learning more about the manga afterwards.

I’d suggest watching that youtube video!
 
Last edited:

Loona

Member
Oct 29, 2017
583
Alita is so feminist that she is primarily defined and motivated by the men in her life, her quasi-father figure and her lover. Color me oh so impressed.
You could could just as easily argue she's using Ido for shelter and repairs and Hugo for access to other aspects of the world and as a boytoy with unblemished featured in a world where a lot of people need to have body parts replaced to function, survive or stay competitive.

You can go whole volumes of the manga without either of them, and Hugo wasn't even introduced until the 2nd one - which he does not survive, so you can also argue he gets "fridged" for the sake of her character arc...

Also the idea that Alita is a better structured character is completely laughable. Her rediscovery of self is incredibly poorly paced and anemic, and she has little agency in it. Carol decides to investigate her flashbacks. It’s Hugo’s ripper crew that brings her to the URM wreck.
The URM wreck wasn't even a thing in the manga (but like the street Motorball sequence, it was a nice movie-only addition IMO; also, the guy who played Tanji and who was involved in both scenes was low-key one of the best performances in the movie), but it was very much a catalyst of her agency - Hugo's crew shows her a wreck exists, she explores way beyond what they expected and there's an aura of "oh fuck what have we done" when she brings back the berzerker body.

When Ido refuses to install it, she goes on to do her own thing despite him, at most taking Hugo to watch her back, him struggling to barely stay out of the way when push comes to shove.

What origins? Some CGI fight scenes with an anonymous mentor type with vague motivations and no characterization? Mar-Vell is actually a character.
Danvers' comic history is such a mess filled with incidents Marvel would rather not acknowledge that they just kinda gave up and rewrote everything for her movie, while Gunnm only addressed a mentor figure in any serious capacity decades into it's publication, and the movie sneaked in nods to to those later introductions to the character history.
It's not a flattering look for either movie IMO, especially considering how different those aspects are in each, so it seems like a weird point of comparison...
 

Kin5290

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,452
You could could just as easily argue she's using Ido for shelter and repairs and Hugo for access to other aspects of the world and as a boytoy with unblemished featured in a world where a lot of people need to have body parts replaced to function, survive or stay competitive.

You can go whole volumes of the manga without either of them, and Hugo wasn't even introduced until the 2nd one - which he does not survive, so you can also argue he gets "fridged" for the sake of her character arc...



The URM wreck wasn't even a thing in the manga (but like the street Motorball sequence, it was a nice movie-only addition IMO; also, the guy who played Tanji and who was involved in both scenes was low-key one of the best performances in the movie), but it was very much a catalyst of her agency - Hugo's crew shows her a wreck exists, she explores way beyond what they expected and there's an aura of "oh fuck what have we done" when she brings back the berzerker body.

When Ido refuses to install it, she goes on to do her own thing despite him, at most taking Hugo to watch her back, him struggling to barely stay out of the way when push comes to shove.



Danvers' comic history is such a mess filled with incidents Marvel would rather not acknowledge that they just kinda gave up and rewrote everything for her movie, while Gunnm only addressed a mentor figure in any serious capacity decades into it's publication, and the movie sneaked in nods to to those later introductions to the character history.
It's not a flattering look for either movie IMO, especially considering how different those aspects are in each, so it seems like a weird point of comparison...
I’m not sure why you’re continuing to bring up the source materials like they matter at all. I don’t care how Alita was presented in the manga. In the movie she is depicted as a naive and ignorant teenaged girl so Ido can identify her as a surrogate daughter and Hugo can lead by the hand while also being an elite Martian commando. Even her discovery that she can fight is devoid of any conscious choice on her part.
 

Laserdisk

Member
May 11, 2018
6,108
UK
I’m not sure why you’re continuing to bring up the source materials like they matter at all. I don’t care how Alita was presented in the manga. In the movie she is depicted as a naive and ignorant teenaged girl so Ido can identify her as a surrogate daughter and Hugo can lead by the hand while also being an elite Martian commando. Even her discovery that she can fight is devoid of any conscious choice on her part.
She needed men and relied on them for every step of the movie
 

Seeya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,111
I’m not sure why you’re continuing to bring up the source materials like they matter at all. I don’t care how Alita was presented in the manga. In the movie she is depicted as a naive and ignorant teenaged girl so Ido can identify her as a surrogate daughter and Hugo can lead by the hand while also being an elite Martian commando. Even her discovery that she can fight is devoid of any conscious choice on her part.
The entire URM sequence is the film. I still feel like this is a fundamental misread of the movie. No offence meant, but I would argue that the manga only strengthens a positive perspective of the film. If Alita gets a sequel, it will further expand on its feminist themes and the critisisms against the original will hold even less weight.

The point of Alita is NOT to be a surrogate daughter to Ido, or to be led around doe eyed by Hugo. Ido and Hugo are only there to further Alita’s character development and Hugo is outright fridges while serving in that role.

I’m not sure why you view that a negative reading, your reading, is cannonical for the film when we know the direction of the things you’re reading. Knowing this, we can more easily see how the very purpose of the elements you are taking issue with only exist to undermine the very message that you posit the movie is communicating.

Again I’d suggest that anyone who has any take on Alita at least watch the video further up the page.

Edit: to be fair, they could alter any hypothetical sequel how they see fit, but I think it’s a bit long in the tooth to argue that they wouldn’t follow through on the core messages that the manga plays out in regards to the things that some people take issue with in the first film.

Yes, but that action and every other action is driven by a man
By rescuing them when they couldn’t rescue themselves? Her actions are driven by her values, not men. Ido equips her with her body because he realizes that she’s right, and that he can’t stand in her way.

I can only imagine applying this line of thinking to superheroes and how bizarrely it would recontextualize them.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
Old Man Spike

Old Man Spike

Member
Oct 29, 2017
858
United States
Forbes: 'Alita: Battle Angel' Avoids Major Write-Down And Could Get a Sequel

Despite pre-release estimates suggesting a terrible domestic bow and subsequent bellyflop at the worldwide box office, Alita: Battle Angel has fought its way to $402.6 million in global receipts and looks to finish its theatrical run just shy of $405 million. A moral victory more than a financial one, Alita's box office nevertheless helps Fox avoid a major write-down and even sets the stage for legitimate discussions about a sequel.
More at the link. One area I disagree with the author is in his assertion that Fox moving Alita out of the Christmas holiday season was a mistake; I think keeping it there would've led to a slaughter.
 

Curler

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,176
Forbes: 'Alita: Battle Angel' Avoids Major Write-Down And Could Get a Sequel

More at the link. One area I disagree with the author is in his assertion that Fox moving Alita out of the Christmas holiday season was a mistake; I think keeping it there would've led to a slaughter.
Link notes: What is UP with those awful quality images??? Also, no, I do not think it would've reached 500 mil if it released around Christmas... Just too many movies in December to compete with.

Also, inching closer to the possibility of a sequel is great! Time to pre-order the 4k when it comes up! (Home video market sales can sure help!)
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,949
I could see some direct to Netflix/streaming anime series thing coming at best with Rosa reprising the role.

No way Disney wastes a dime on a live action sequel
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,548
Forbes: 'Alita: Battle Angel' Avoids Major Write-Down And Could Get a Sequel

More at the link. One area I disagree with the author is in his assertion that Fox moving Alita out of the Christmas holiday season was a mistake; I think keeping it there would've led to a slaughter.
After that weak OW, and low interest overseas, with the exception of China, I think most people were hoping for this "moral victory" more than expecting the turn around to a "financial victory". People were so obnoxious though in trying to categorize all hopes for the franchise being the latter.

Definitely interested in seeing what they'd do in a sequel, so here's hoping Cameron and Disney work something out in the wake of the Fox merger and Avatar sequels on the horizon that Disney has to hope are massively successful again. Keep Jim happy, Disney!
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,280
I don't think Cameron had rights to anything but a movie adaptation of the manga so I'm not sure if Disney would even bother going after the rights for a TV show/animated series. If anything I expect we get a new anime series from Japan that has nothing to do with the live action movie and is just a straight adaptation of the manga itself.
 

chrominance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,274
I also totally disagree re: Alita being the better movie. I don't think Captain Marvel was boring; it was quiet, which isn't the same thing. But my favorite moments in the movie are the quiet ones; I think the character work was pretty strong for a Marvel movie and I really did feel like I got a strong sense of who Carol Danvers was by the end.

I'll give Alita the win in action choreography and cinematography, though. Marvel is a bit of a poorly-lit mess, while Alita's scenes were fun and exciting to watch. I just don't think the scenes tying them all together held up their end of the bargain.

I can totally see from that above assessment why some people would like Alita better than Marvel. If you're looking for a flashy action spectacle where you can turn your brain off and go for a wild ride, Alita does a better job.
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,548
Hell yeah, I was worried when I went to find more info recently and saw blu-ray forums of people still having no clue what was going on with the home release.

Weird that the website links to Amazon and the Amazon page not only hasn't been updated, but still says:
Playback Region B/2 :This will not play on most Blu-ray players sold in North America