I related to the game in both ways. Kratos does remind me of my dad and at the same time Atreus reminds of my baby brother.
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All of these sad dad games illustrate how badly other voices are needed in the industry
- Thread starter Pooh
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I related to the game in both ways. Kratos does remind me of my dad and at the same time Atreus reminds of my baby brother.
I guess I can see you point. But that's not really that many games when you look at it over years and how many games come out. The thing is a lot of those games are great and I thoroughly enjoyed those games. I would rather creators make the games they are passionate about then try and force a narrative to check off certain things. That's not to say that there shouldn't be more diversity in the gaming industry. The industry is evolving and so are the stories. It will take time to see every change you want and it may never happen. But to generalize a lot of these games as white guys with kids is very dismissive of these games and everyone that work on them. Again I agree there should be more diversity in the industry and in actual stories. But out of all the video games listed her it doesn't seem like that many share this common thread.
I could only think of GoW and TLoU, and TLoU came out years ago.
That's just every game that contains a dad. They're not games specifically about being a dad and mentoring a child.
But in the case of the games being brought up the circumstances are hardly relateable at that level from a world building level. I've never played TLoU but knowing the basics of it, I don't know what if anything about a post apocalyptic zombie infested world relates to one race over another. Is there something more specific about the interactions?
And how would games set in the ancient past, apocalyptic future, or fictional universe differ between white and non-white protagonists? How would the perspective change if Joel and Ellie were black or Hispanic?
You clearly have extensive personal experience with both life experiences.
OP
OP
It feels like a lot of people here don't recognize that your life experiences color the things you create. Your voice is a reflection of your life and what you're exposed to.
I don't know, but I want to find out, especially if black or hispanic voices were the vision behind it. That's kinda my whole point.
I don't know, but I want to find out, especially if black or hispanic voices were the vision behind it. That's kinda my whole point.
anti-white racist...
is that a thing though. you got an aaa game that sold millions. are you really pulling that card?
Kratos isn't even white:
You know....Greek people are generally pretty tanned yeah?
I know I'm the pasty white exception to that rule (and get made fun of a lot at work as a result), but yeah, his skin colour looks about right for a Greek person.
It feels like Western devs rarely ever make games with young protags anymore. There's Spider-Man coming out this year...and what else? I'm surprised the west is leaving the 18-25 age protagonists to Japan considering a huge section of the gaming populace is in that age range. It's just more interesting for me to see a character trying to start out his life and find his place in the world, rather than an old character who is weary and set in their ways.
So the argument is that black players care less for "dad stories"?
Since I'm not black and you're not black, I'd prefer to see a black poster chime in and give some perspective on this. I really can't figure how a black person of my age would be less interested in Kratos' struggles as a father, but I may be missing some perspective.
I think what might help people past this point is giving a specific example of how it could affect the story of one of these games. Saying "if you don't get it I don't know what to tell you" isn't as convincing as you might think it is, for better or worse.
OP
OP
No, my argument is that the stories are crafted with intent to be palatable to white players. It's basic logic. That doesn't preclude black players.
I know that. I wanted to give them an opportunity to explain themselves.
Yes. But having said that you should see that you are taking the topic the wrong way discussing it on a gaming forum.
This is a society issue. Which means that reducing discrimination at work, increasing social mobility and so on for everyone will provide more diversity of creative work in the AAA space.
It's a slow process and one that takes political actions.
It has nothing to do with games and you don't want to force minorities into stories just for the sake of diversity. The issue has to be treated by the society and then you will see more diversity as a natural result.
Games and film are not helping the issues. Actions in real world do.
Assassin's Creed Origins has another sad (mosty angry) dad.
Now, that OP points at, It seems like gaming is moving with certain demographic.
Next gen is going to be all about middle age crisis.
Now, that OP points at, It seems like gaming is moving with certain demographic.
Next gen is going to be all about middle age crisis.
It's not a sad dad game, if anything it's an "angry dad" game. :P
Don't agree with those. Maybe D2 partially, but if you play as Emily (which I did) you see none of that. GoW4 isn't about a sad dad just because it features a dad.
Red-haired female protagonists are very common. Heavenly Sword, Enslaved: Odyssey to the West, Perfect Dark, Dino Crisis, Trails in the Sky, Borderlands (Lilith), Bloodrayne, Resident Evil 2/Revelations (Claire), Mass Effect (default Ms. Shepherd), Transistor, The Last of Us 2, Pokémon....
(Not saying they're all sexually ambiguous, mind, just saying that red-haired ladies is indeed a very safe and popular choice. xD)
Yes, I'm sure nobody has considered this. How condescending can you get after making a terrible specious argument to start things off? As it turns out, pretty fucking condescending.
And you didn't?
Also title needs editing: sad white god dad /or something
White dads work long hours and rarely see their kids? Is there any real basis for such a statement or is this just a personal observation? I've been brought up in a white/asian community so I have little experience with black family culture.
ok then please tell how kratos being black, would have make the story different cause im gonna be fair, Im not black, so I dont know what different father/son dynamics they have to go tru as different of latinos
Cause the way you word thing make me believe you imply a black Father will not relate in any way to the way Kratos does with his Atreus
Spider-Man is 23 in the game, Aloy is also early 20s, Ellie is still a teenager in TLOU 2 and Marcus in Watch Dogs 2 is 24. Not a lot but I don't think consumers care about age in games.
Marcus goes through a severe depression after the loss of Anya and the gross machinizing of the Coalition. Forcing his son and the kid he took under his wing to go through his bullshit through the COG as a means of living up to what his father taught him and ending up alienating his wife, children and closest friends. It's very much a 'dad' game.
I'm even more confused now. I'm neither white nor a dad but palatability was never a concern for me nor anyone else I've spoken to. Anecdotal yes, but the only dismissive voice I've heard was from a white dad with a trollish streak.
it seems to me that some people needlessly must divide human conditions such as love and fatherhood by superficial aspects not core to said conditions
OP
OP
I'm basing it on my personal experiences in the game industry. It's pretty well known that crunch, long hours, and a ton of time spent away from family are critical issues.
I agree, it's very much a popular choice because red/ginger hair stands out, can be very striking and ultimately is a very easy way of doing that. I imaging red-headed female characters are disproportionately represented in games (and probably media as a whole), but I wouldn't say it's necessarily a recent thing at all.
I'm really glad that it's become as popular as it is right now.
Where I live, dads who are going through a divorce are basically fucked and, in most cases, even if mother showed signs of neglect or abuse she gets a custody while the only thing father can do is to see their children twice a month. Person who is very close to me was unfortunate enough to experience this and those stories, like the one in God of War, will always make me tear up a bit.
Also, after years of portraying dads as the bad guys in various media this take is very refreshing and empowering.
Where I live, dads who are going through a divorce are basically fucked and, in most cases, even if mother showed signs of neglect or abuse she gets a custody while the only thing father can do is to see their children twice a month. Person who is very close to me was unfortunate enough to experience this and those stories, like the one in God of War, will always make me tear up a bit.
Also, after years of portraying dads as the bad guys in various media this take is very refreshing and empowering.
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I'm a Latin American homosexual that will not have kids and doesn't have a father. I didn't. And I won't. That's the point of this thread.
DEFINITELY need more representation of different voices in gaming.
This particular trope was a weird one to criticise though. Struggles of fatherhood is something that is relatively universal in terms of being relatable. The sad dad games mentioned here don't seem to do anything that would make them more or less relatable to different races (although correct me if I'm wrong) and actually the likes of Joel, Kratos and Lee are all different races anyway.
That being said, there are precious few interesting, realistic and relatable 'voices' in gaming and I do see the point that the fact sad dad pops up time and time again may be a reflection of the people making them. Maybe those guys are white!
This particular trope was a weird one to criticise though. Struggles of fatherhood is something that is relatively universal in terms of being relatable. The sad dad games mentioned here don't seem to do anything that would make them more or less relatable to different races (although correct me if I'm wrong) and actually the likes of Joel, Kratos and Lee are all different races anyway.
That being said, there are precious few interesting, realistic and relatable 'voices' in gaming and I do see the point that the fact sad dad pops up time and time again may be a reflection of the people making them. Maybe those guys are white!
So this is the longest list anyone has come up with. Let's ignore that some of those are really fucking stretching, throw in God of War and say we've got 17 games there. Over an eight year period. So about 2 games per year. That's it.
My, what an overwhelming deluge of sad dad games.
The OP isn't entirely wrong. We're seeing more sad dad games because male developers and audiences are getting older and starting families so themes of fatherhood are becoming relevant to them. I'm not seeing the problem here. If someone wants to make sad black dad games then sure (Lee and Clementine say hi, by the way, despise somehow being used as examples of white sad dad games), go right ahead. If someone wants to make sad mum games then I'm up for it. (Preferably written by someone who actually knows a damn thing about being a mum, otherwise we're likely to get more hilarious Metroid Other M class garbage.)
By all means, bring on the diversity, but I don't see how developers making some games with themes relevant to them and their audience is some big problem.
I can think of MAYBE three games that actually fit in this category over the last 5 years. This isn't some huge epidemic as far as I can tell.
The funny (or sad) thing is, you are 100% wrong. I am as bleeding liberal as you can imagine. Thanks for trying to pigeonhole me though.
You still haven't provided evidence that this is the case though. How would the storytelling in games like God of War or The Last of Us be different if the characters were black instead of white (not to mention Kratos isn't even white, just ashy)?
Do you feel like we are that much more different than you are? I am a Hispanic person and this post is confusing since I don't think The Last of Us would be any different if Joel was African-American or if Ellie was Hispanic. Do you mean if the game took place in a different part of the world and was inspired and had references to Hispanic culture?
If you want to find out what some of these games are like, why don't you play games made by Hispanic and African-American devs? VA-11 Hall-A was made by a Venezuelan team if you want to try that. I enjoyed it but it's a visual novel so it's not for everyone.
Can't believe I'm seeing a literal "starving children in Africa" whataboutism here.
Don't do this. If you aren't interested in discussing representation, then don't post in here, but media representation is influential on culture and is a topic worth discussing, appealing to worse problems is a textbook fallacy.
Hmm, I guess you're right. I forgot about all those details. The story was so throwaway that I probably just wiped it from memory and focused on shooting Locust. xD
OP
OP
... who said it did?
I said:
- Majority of western devs, including leads, are white, and majority are dudes
- Major problem in western game dev (can't speak to others) is the crazy amount of time spent away from family doing 60 hour crunch weeks and so on (side note: this is also a big reason why people burn out and leave the industry early, so they can have sane hours and a family and actually see them).
This should be your OP. So many people are confused or argumentative because your OP really doesn't reflect this thought, that life experience informs how your express yourself in a story.
How exactly are they more "palatable" to white players than black players? Really, you made the op, you made that big statement, but there's nothing coming from you to give this any substance. What makes being a dad and being sad so "white" to you?
Yeah, I get you want more games from minorities, and you expect them to be vastly different from games you get now, because... reasons. Or something.
I mean, yeah, that's a good opinion to have and a good thing to want, but the OP is just... what?
Actually, you got the game as much as anyone else did. If you did not purchase it, that's your choice, but a game is no less fun just because it does not depict your personal situation. I don't have kids. I never will be able to for reasons. This did not make God of War any less enjoyable or emotional.
It's entirely possible to connect with characters that aren't us in digital form.
What's wrong with depicting a good father son relationship?! People can express themselves the way they want.
And I think you're overblowing the importance of race in affecting us regardings themes and emotions that are pretty much universal. I really don't assume black people look at their kids any differently from how I do (expecially because generally arguments that begin this way end up in nasty places).
I'd also consider another thing: when we (white people) generally go on tangents about how we need "other perspectives/more diverse voices" we often end up colouring those voices with the expectations that they will inject real or perceived discrimination they suffer into their work. We imagine black developers writing their dad characters lecturing their kids about the risks of interacting with police (like you mentioned before).
Then you look at Black Panther and you see that when you get black authors and leave them absolutely free to create escapist fiction with a black audience in mind oddly they don't create 12 Years A Slave but they create something that is joyful, proud and entertaining and that doesn't hammer the audience with the idea that their race is about struggle and discrimination but they can enjoy their fiction and heroes as something they can share with their own kids without having to do any "speech".
I think we need to have more diverse voices and more diverse authors but I also think we need to stop placing this kind of expectations on them. It's about getting fair conditions and equal access to workplaces for their sake rather than doing so to appease our "guilt" by expecting them to produce exactly what we imagine they would do. We don't need more representation in the industry so that we can enjoy a more diverse product, we need more representation because that's the right thing for the minorities wanting to work in the industry. What they do once they get the job shouldn't be tied to any expectation. Black people aren't tasked with creating "black fiction". Let them do what they want.
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