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All of these sad dad games illustrate how badly other voices are needed in the industry

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Oct 27, 2017
939
... who said it did?
I said:
- Majority of western devs, including leads, are white, and majority are dudes
- Major problem in western game dev (can't speak to others) is the crazy amount of time spent away from family doing 60 hour crunch weeks and so on (side note: this is also a big reason why people burn out and leave the industry early, so they can have sane hours and a family and actually see them).
Okaaaaay, say we replace the white guys with black guys. Do these black guys suddenly stop doing 60 hour crunch weeks?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,893
As long as the story is good, I dont have a problem personally. A lot of the "dad" games I can think of are good stories
 

Enazrat

Banned
Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,536
Can't believe I'm seeing a literal "starving children in Africa" whataboutism here.

Don't do this. If you aren't interested in discussing representation, then don't post in here, but media representation is influential on culture and is a topic worth discussing, appealing to worse problems is a textbook fallacy.
What you are reducing as children in africa whataboutims is my opinion on this topic and I have every right to express it as you do.
It's through political actions and social actions that reduce discriminations that you will get a better representation as a natural result.
Forcing reprensation or imposing those topics on entertainment are both a sterile way to change deeper problems and detrimental to the quality of those products.
 
Jan 16, 2018
87
User Banned (3 Days): Trolling, accusing a member of “race-baiting”, low post count
“I need to get clicks. Best way to do that is to write a garbage race bait article.... but what nonsense will sound enlightened and cover up my sheer idiocy? I need something that Provides a ridiculous premise that provokes the perpetually self described ‘woke’. Got it...”. - Author of OPs article
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,538
No, my argument is that the stories are crafted with intent to be palatable to white players. It's basic logic. That doesn't preclude black players.
I think what I miss is the basic logic of these stories being more relatable to white dads than black dads. Is there anything in the story that makes it so aside from the character's skin colour?
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,954
New Jersey
why dont you ask for minority representation in games OP. i feel like automatically going to joel and kratos being white(literally in kratos's case) and male kind of misses the point of how emotional brevity in games was sorely missing for a long time in general in that way, and how it doesnt actually represent the actual games themselves

Lee, Nier, and Kiryu are not white. Neither is Asura...but its seems like the only examples you bring up are two
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,805
I thought GoW was praised because it was the first "sad dad" game ever released? I can't think of any others.
*Tidus Laugh.wav*

God of War is far, far, faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from the first "sad dad" game. Any critic claiming it as such is implicitly revealing the lack of breadth and depth in their knowledge on the topic.

If games like Nier or Asura's Wrath somehow don't fit into this niche, I have no idea what should be allowed to count. God of War is a well-made game, but a ground-breaking character narrative is something it simply doesn't have.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,726
Then you look at Black Panther and you see that when you get black authors and leave them absolutely free to create escapist fiction with a black audience in mind oddly they don't create 12 Years A Slave but they create something that is joyful, proud and entertaining and that doesn't hammer the audience with the idea that their race is about struggle and discrimination but they can enjoy their fiction and heroes as something they can share with their own kids without having to do any "speech".
Did you watch Black Panther? Like that shit literally starts out in the hood. Then they go to Africa and play out a scenario similar to the terrorism happening in Nigeria. The main antagonist wants to
Liberate oppressed black people

Like how the fuck was the movie not about black people and black themes?
 
OP
OP
Pooh
Oct 25, 2017
5,317
The Hundred Acre Wood
Do you feel like we are that much more different than you are? I am a Hispanic person and this post is confusing since I don't think The Last of Us would be any different if Joel was African-American or if Ellie was Hispanic.
OK, so start from Square 1. I doubt a team of African-American or Hispanic developers, when wanting to tell "their story," think up The Last of Us as we got it in the first place. If your square 1 is "The Last of Us, white middle aged guy, white daughter-stand-in, general North American apocalyptic city OK GO" then yeah, maybe the story wouldn't end up so different.

Do you mean if the game took place in a different part of the world and was inspired and had references to Hispanic culture?
Maybe! That would be really cool!

If you want to find out what some of these games are like, why don't you play games made by Hispanic and African-American devs? VA-11 Hall-A was made by a Venezuelan team if you want to try that. I enjoyed it but it's a visual novel so it's not for everyone.
I did play VA-11 Hall-A, and loved it! It's also an indie game. I play a ton of indie games, and they're great. But I'd love to see a AAA game from that perspective.
 
Nov 23, 2017
1,749
User Warned: Inflammatory Generalizations
OP, you're right. Ignore the obviously fragile white men posting who feel personally attacked. They are totally trying to derail the thread.


Though I'd say its still just the classic white dude protag problem, which is nothing new in itself, but with a new twist on it. So the more things change the more they stay the same.

edit:

I am actually offended by the anti- white racist shit in this thread. "Dad" games should be universal, not "digestible" for certain people. We should all take offense with some of the comments in this thread. At Era, this stuff should not be tolerated.
Case in point
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,137
I'd love to play a AAA game that stars a strong mother fighting for her child. I can relate to that better because my single parent was my mom other than Bayonetta. More diversity is needed in creative lead roles in entertainment for sure.
 
Oct 29, 2017
8,583
Yeah the sad dad games are getting stale. Need more sad brother games. That one game, brothers?, was great. More of those sad kids pls
 
Oct 25, 2017
159
What you are reducing as children in africa whataboutims is my opinion on this topic and I have every right to express it as you do.
It's through political actions and social actions that reduce discriminations that you will get a better representation as a natural result.
Forcing reprensation or imposing those topics on entertainment are both a sterile way to change deeper problems and detrimental to the quality of those products.
I would so love it for you to point me to examples for your so called "forced diversity". Also this is a videogame forum so I'm not sure why this wouldn't be the place to critically evaluate the media we consume (videogames in this case). And are the videogame industry or the movie industry not part of society? Do you not believe that consumer feedback has anything to do with what companies do and how they act? And somehow posting in a discussion about this means you can't do something about those issues irl as well? I'm thoroughly confused by your posts here.
 

prag16

Banned
Member
Oct 26, 2017
848
Looking through, and this thread is kind of backfirey, but probably not backfirey enough based on the ridiculousness of the premise. Is there some kind of competition in which we go to any length to try to sound as woke as possible in ever possible situation?

God of War
The Last of Us... kinda?

And just about everything else mentioned is a massive stretch imo.
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,538
Did you watch Black Panther? Like that shit literally starts out in the hood. Then they go to Africa and play out a scenario similar to the terrorism happening in Nigeria. The main antagonist wants to
Liberate oppressed black people
.

Like how the fuck was the movie not about black people and black themes?
[/QUOTE]

That's not what I said. There's absolutely black themes in the movie (heck, there's ONLY black themes in the movie, more or less), but the angle is different from what white people generally expect a "black movie" to be. It's not a revenge fantasy like Django Unchained, for example; it's a movie about black people, not black people suffering under white people. Which doesn't mean it's dismissive of those themes.
 
OP
OP
Pooh
Oct 25, 2017
5,317
The Hundred Acre Wood
This should be your OP. So many people are confused or argumentative because your OP really doesn't reflect this thought, that life experience informs how your express yourself in a story.
Yeah, maybe. I dunno, it's a discussion forum and I wanted to discuss. I'm not getting a grade on this, lol.

How exactly are they more „palatable“ to white players than black players? Really, you made the op, you made that big statement, but there’s nothing coming from you to give this any substance. What makes being a dad and being sad so „white“ to you?

Yeah, I get you want more games from minorities, and you expect them to be vastly different from games you get now, because... reasons. Or something.

I mean, yeah, that’s a good opinion to have and a good thing to want, but the OP is just... what?
You're the one putting the word "THAN" in there. You guys are so focused on contrasting the audience when what I'm talking about is really not that complicated. White people making stories from their white perspective for a primarily white audience. It's not a "only white people will get this" sort of thing.

Then you look at Black Panther and you see that when you get black authors and leave them absolutely free to create escapist fiction with a black audience in mind oddly they don't create 12 Years A Slave but they create something that is joyful, proud and entertaining and that doesn't hammer the audience with the idea that their race is about struggle and discrimination but they can enjoy their fiction and heroes as something they can share with their own kids without having to do any "speech".
A HUGE part of the love for Black Panther was the black vision and authorial intent behind it. Also I feel like you missed a whole lot if you didn't get that Killmonger's point of view as a black man living in the West and conveying that to Black Panther was like... I mean that's the whole movie, man.
 
Nov 11, 2017
381
Byrgenwerth
OK, so start from Square 1. I doubt a team of African-American or Hispanic developers, when wanting to tell "their story," think up The Last of Us as we got it in the first place. If your square 1 is "The Last of Us, white middle aged guy, white daughter-stand-in, general North American apocalyptic city OK GO" then yeah, maybe the story wouldn't end up so different.


Maybe! That would be really cool!


I did play VA-11 Hall-A, and loved it! It's also an indie game. I play a ton of indie games, and they're great. But I'd love to see a AAA game from that perspective.
Okay, so your main point isn't that these games with white dads need to be replaced with minorities but rather that other cultures in the world could use some more representation? I'm on board with that but I still disagree that there's an influx of "white dad" games. Since gaming is a business and a businesses main goal is to make money, I don't think the whole trope of a white male character will go away anytime soon.

Your point is that AAA developers should branch outside of their safety zone and take risks with their ideas, right? I would absolutely love that but again, we have to back to the ugly part of this and remember the business aspect. Would I love to play a Dark Souls like game set in ancient Mesoamerica with cities like Tenochtitlan to explore, or a game based on Carthage where you march on Rome? Absolutely! Would the majority of gamers enjoy these? Unfortunately, probably not and I don't think developers are able to take financial risks to find out.
 

Morrigan

Armoring
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
7,444
Wait, that shade of what I always thought to be brown counts as red hair?
Eventhese?
...Yes. That is very clearly natural dark red/auburn hair. Not all redheads are like Carrot Top. ;)

What you are reducing as children in africa whataboutims is my opinion on this topic and I have every right to express it as you do.
What you are doing is attempting to shut down discussion. So, please, don't do that.
It's through political actions and social actions that reduce discriminations that you will get a better representation as a natural result.
Forcing reprensation or imposing those topics on entertainment are both a sterile way to change deeper problems and detrimental to the quality of those products.
"Forcing representation"? What? And adding minorities/women PoV in media is "detrimental to their quality"?

You need to elaborate on this, because, uh...
 
Jan 12, 2018
1,420
That's not what I said. There's absolutely black themes in the movie (heck, there's ONLY black themes in the movie, more or less), but the angle is different from what white people generally expect a "black movie" to be. It's not a revenge fantasy like Django Unchained, for example; it's a movie about black people, not black people suffering under white people. Which doesn't mean it's dismissive of those themes.
TL;DR
White people telling stories of black people play out quite differently than black people telling stories about black people.
 
OP
OP
Pooh
Oct 25, 2017
5,317
The Hundred Acre Wood
“I need to get clicks. Best way to do that is to write a garbage race bait article.... but what nonsense will sound enlightened and cover up my sheer idiocy? I need something that Provides a ridiculous premise that provokes the perpetually self described ‘woke’. Got it...”. - Author of OPs article
Haha yeah dude I'm totally race baiting and I'm trying to sound smart to prove something to a gaming forum, oh and also yeah gotta get those clicks for a forum website I have absolutely no financial interest in

Totally
 
Nov 4, 2017
415
Minnesota
OK, so start from Square 1. I doubt a team of African-American or Hispanic developers, when wanting to tell "their story," think up The Last of Us as we got it in the first place. If your square 1 is "The Last of Us, white middle aged guy, white daughter-stand-in, general North American apocalyptic city OK GO" then yeah, maybe the story wouldn't end up so different.
Why can't they make a game like that? Do non-white developers only have to make games about racial issues? I'm generally curious why you believe you're so much different than a black middle aged man, or a Hispanic middle aged man, etc?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,648
OP, you're right. Ignore the obviously fragile white men posting who feel personally attacked. They are totally trying to derail the thread.


Though I'd say its still just the classic white dude protag problem, which is nothing new in itself, but with a new twist on it. So the more things change the more they stay the same.

edit:



Case in point
So everyone who doesn't agree is a fragile white man? Why the fuck is posting like this still tollerated? It's dismissive, assumptious, offending and add's nothing but to create an echo chamber of self congratulatory superiority.
 
Oct 26, 2017
291
.

Like how the fuck was the movie not about black people and black themes?

That's not what I said. There's absolutely black themes in the movie (heck, there's ONLY black themes in the movie, more or less), but the angle is different from what white people generally expect a "black movie" to be. It's not a revenge fantasy like Django Unchained, for example; it's a movie about black people, not black people suffering under white people. Which doesn't mean it's dismissive of those themes.
django was directed by a white guy who desperately wants to be black and it shows
 
Oct 27, 2017
835
Amsterdam
It's mainstream blockbuster type games, same as with Hollywood movies. They really just want to appeal to their largest potential buyer and that's white males in their late twenties so this is what you get.

I'd definitely prefer if companies would not be so risk adverse and try to make something that breaks the mold in all kinds of ways and not just in graphics.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,694
OP, you're right. Ignore the obviously fragile white men posting who feel personally attacked. They are totally trying to derail the thread.


Though I'd say its still just the classic white dude protag problem, which is nothing new in itself, but with a new twist on it. So the more things change the more they stay the same.

edit:



Case in point
I'm not white and still think this thread is ridiculous. :)
 

BDubsLegend

Banned
Member
Jan 24, 2018
1,027
This thread was a mistake. Op used the familiar rallying cry of this is for "white males" when nothing in the context of the game would make the experience any different regardless of your skin color. We need better representation in culture in general but thus was not a good example of needing change, especially in a high fantasy setting that doesn't even reflect the real world. Now the white man does have built in privilege and access a black man does not, I mean for a realistic example if a black man was in the exact same situation Cory Barlog was in could he even get this game made when it was so close to being put on the shelf? Back to the game, if this was a story about raising a child on earth or in a setting that reflected real life OP would have a leg to stand on. Often I see a lot of effort being put into "helping" or "understanding" minorities on the internet but it often is directed at superficial issues. As many have already said, changing the race of Kratos should have no effect on the story they are trying to tell. If anything why does a character based in rage, murder and destruction get voiced by a black man in two separate instances. Maybe that says something about expectations of what a violent, murderous man sounds like.
 
OP
OP
Pooh
Oct 25, 2017
5,317
The Hundred Acre Wood
This thread was a mistake. Op used the familiar rallying cry of this is for "white males" when nothing in the context of the game would make the experience any different regardless of your skin color. We need better representation in culture in general but thus was not a good example of needing change, especially in a high fantasy setting that doesn't even reflect the real world. Now the white man does have built in privilege and access a black man does not, I mean for a realistic example if a black man was in the exact same situation Cory Barlog was in could he even get this game made when it was so close to being put on the shelf? Back to the game, if this was a story about raising a child on earth or in a setting that reflected real life OP would have a leg to stand on. Often I see a lot of effort being put into "helping" or "understanding" minorities on the internet but it often is directed at superficial issues. As many have already said, changing the race of Kratos should have no effect on the story they are trying to tell. If anything why does a character based in rage, murder and destruction get voiced by a black man in two separate instances. Maybe that says something about expectations of what a violent, murderous man sounds like.
But I'm not saying, "God of War, but Kratos is black."

I'm saying, "[insert game here created by minority voices]"
 
Jan 12, 2018
1,420
Why can't they make a game like that? Do non-white developers only have to make games about racial issues? I'm generally curious why you believe you're so much different than a black middle aged man, or a Hispanic middle aged man, etc?
I don't think he meant for them to make games only about racial issues, but rather their cultural differences would bring different perspectives to the drawing board.
You said "Kratos isn't white". Well....he is. Greek people come under "Caucasian" no?
I think this gets filed under the "black and white aren't actually races" complication.
 
Jan 16, 2018
87
Haha yeah dude I'm totally race baiting and I'm trying to sound smart to prove something to a gaming forum, oh and also yeah gotta get those clicks for a forum website I have absolutely no financial interest in

Totally
Honestly, I thought you copied that from somewhere. Now that I know you actually somehow came up with that, you should submit it because there’s are some places who would totally post it with a fan base that would buy into that absurd premise.

Totally!
 
Oct 27, 2017
939
That's not what I said. There's absolutely black themes in the movie (heck, there's ONLY black themes in the movie, more or less), but the angle is different from what white people generally expect a "black movie" to be. It's not a revenge fantasy like Django Unchained, for example; it's a movie about black people, not black people suffering under white people. Which doesn't mean it's dismissive of those themes.
As a non-American, Black Panther is really weird movie for me. I'm like, "guys, you're not Black Americans, you're Africans. The only thing you have in common is your skin color; Wakanda couldn't be any more culturally different. Why are you prioritizing issues in a 1st world country when there are literal genocide happening on your neighboring countries." I'd personally love to see an African's take on Black Panther.
 
Nov 23, 2017
1,749
Looking through, and this thread is kind of backfirey, but probably not backfirey enough based on the ridiculousness of the premise. Is there some kind of competition in which we go to any length to try to sound as woke as possible in ever possible situation?

God of War
The Last of Us... kinda?

And just about everything else mentioned is a massive stretch imo.
You're trying too hard

Honestly, I thought you copied that from somewhere. Now that I know you actually somehow came up with that, you should submit it because there’s are some places who would totally post it with a fan base that would buy into that absurd premise.

Totally!
So are you
 
OP
OP
Pooh
Oct 25, 2017
5,317
The Hundred Acre Wood
Honestly, I thought you copied that from somewhere. Now that I know you actually somehow came up with that, you should submit it because there’s are some places who would totally post it with a fan base that would buy into that absurd premise.

Totally!
Haha go ahead and make that cash bro, I totally give you permission, make that bank dude, totally
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,665
So everyone who doesn't agree is a fragile white man? Why the fuck is posting like this still tollerated? It's dismissive, assumptious, offending and add's nothing but to create an echo chamber of self congratulatory superiority.
Should be ban worthy tbh. Apparently I am a fragile white guy. I’ll tell that to my black mom, born and raised in rough af Pontiac, MI.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,356
But I'm not saying, "God of War, but Kratos is black."

I'm saying, "[insert game here created by minority voices]"
But you chose a strange place to start from to say that, or so it seems. Like that there's something about these stories that particularly exemplifies the divide, which is what a number of people here seem to not get, myself included.
 
Nov 8, 2017
3,791
My life as a white person is different in countless ways from a black or hispanic person in this country.
Wait so you're white? And you are speaking on behalf of PoC, and you do not see the hypocrisy in that? There have been a good few people in this thread that are PoC and have no issues with "white sad dads". Of course there should be a higher representation of women and PoC in the gaming industry but this is a weird way of putting that point across.
 
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