Amazon's "New World" MMO will no longer have Player Killing due to toxicity. PvP will still be an important part of game.

antonz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,571
As someone who was involved in playtesting New World I can confirm that the toxicity was off the charts. You had people spawning in on the beach for the first time getting destroyed over and over and those lucky enough to escape the beach still had no clue what they were doing but would then get destroyed by the next band of people going around.

Sure you could say hey its alpha so ban those people and things will improve but it wouldn't. That mindset is not going to go away and would rear itself again when new testers came in or when the game launched.

I think they address the situation fairly well. Capturing Territory on the map etc. requires flagging for world PVP. So if you want a nice castle or something you have to commit to fight for it.
 

Hogger

Member
Nov 18, 2017
533
Love this decision. Anyone that loves the idea of constant griefing can eat a bag. There's shitty things in this world, people shouldn't need to enjoy making someone's life hell in a game.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,618
Wasn't a big appeal of this game originally the idea of how open and free form it was? I thought the whole idea was that it was a big sandbox but this sounds like they want to make it into something more akin to WoW. Feels like a game that has some serious vision issues.
Even if they did say that before a developer always has to be careful about how player killers interact with the rest of community. A game only wants single digit percentage of players as killers. Too many killers hurts the games growth.

I hate PvP, but I'll be honest, if you remove PKing it won't be much of a sandbox. How does Eve Online handle it?

You could make some lawless areas, where PvP runs rampant. And killing someone in a normal area has sever repercussions.

In Eve Online they had the following systems in place.

1. Older players getting bigger ships used weapons that were so big you only dealt a portion of your damage to smaller ships. Newer players with enough knowledge of how the game works could make themselves unkillable by leveraging their size and speed correctly. The biggest threat to experienced younger players are items that destroyed their mobility.

2. They created areas of space that was relatively safer than other areas of space. They also made the most dangerous areas of space contain the most valuable rewards. As a result older players wanting the rewards simply stayed away from the areas new players lived in except to trade or find recruits. Everyone else who like to grief new players simply could not afford to attack any new player because not only would it make you resource poor you could eventually become at risk of losing your skill points. Griefers had to get very creative to attack new players but most of the time since money mattered so much the preferred to attack experienced traders by suiciding on their freighters because it is more satisfying in making someone else angry while turning a profit than making a new player sad and incurring a financial loss on yourself.
 

Avitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,218
Love this decision. Anyone that loves the idea of constant griefing can eat a bag. There's shitty things in this world, people shouldn't need to enjoy making someone's life hell in a game.
That's why you have PvE servers where it can't happen. This isn't complicated. You can normally opt in or opt out.
 

KKRT

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,159
Yeah, Ultima Online was successful for many years ....after they dumped forced PvP.

Former developer saying PvP was driving away over 70% of new players in the early days of Ultima Online and that EA almost shut down UO because of it.

There is no market for full loot PvP MMOs, not anymore. Theres barely a market for forced PvP MMOs currently. The problem is that when want their PvP "fix" they no longer turn to MMOs for it. Its either Battle Royale games or MOBAs or something else that offers immediate satisfaction and doesnt have you grind out hundreds of hours of tedium to get to the fun part.
I really doubt that there isnt market for more hardcore MMOs anymore, especially with PVP thats not full loot. Everybody thought there was no market for space sim, nobody though that survival games or that more hardcore games like PUBG would be will be so popular.
And you do need hundreds of hours in most sandbox games to get to the fun part. Market just needs a game that will be streamlined enough, but still not a theme park.
 

StrayDog

Avenger
Jul 14, 2018
887
This only show the incompetence of the devs. There is a living example called EVE on how to deal with it and they didn't even take a look at it?
 

Vamphuntr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,005
This only show the incompetence of the devs. There is a living example called EVE on how to deal with it and they didn't even take a look at it?
I mean the game is not even out and it doesn't mean that the system won't make a comeback. Big changes usually take time and a bunch of updates in a MMO and they have to eventually launch.

Not wanting to copy another game doesn't mean they are "incompetent".
 

texhnolyze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,695
Indonesia
As someone who was involved in playtesting New World I can confirm that the toxicity was off the charts. You had people spawning in on the beach for the first time getting destroyed over and over and those lucky enough to escape the beach still had no clue what they were doing but would then get destroyed by the next band of people going around.

Sure you could say hey its alpha so ban those people and things will improve but it wouldn't. That mindset is not going to go away and would rear itself again when new testers came in or when the game launched.

I think they address the situation fairly well. Capturing Territory on the map etc. requires flagging for world PVP. So if you want a nice castle or something you have to commit to fight for it.
Thanks for the insight. That sounds like a nightmare to me.

I guess some people are into that kind of fun, getting killed over and over again in the starting area.
 

Zeroth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
137
I really doubt that there isnt market for more hardcore MMOs anymore, especially with PVP thats not full loot. Everybody thought there was no market for space sim, nobody though that survival games or that more hardcore games like PUBG would be will be so popular.
And you do need hundreds of hours in most sandbox games to get to the fun part. Market just needs a game that will be streamlined enough, but still not a theme park.
The decision in this game's case was based on direct feedback from their Alpha stages. I'm sure there's a market for this kind of player versus player MMO, but from the looks of it, the main demographic of New World is not it.

Personally speaking, I've seen a Brazilian MMO launch a couple weeks ago, and it was based in an old school MMO that had open PvP for many years (and nowadays have open PvP, optional PvP and no PvP servers, the later two that have the most population). This Brazilian MMO was going to launch with a single PvP server, but made a non-PvP server due to player demand and it's by far the most played one.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,618
Thanks for the insight. That sounds like a nightmare to me.

I guess some people are into that kind of fun, getting killed over and over again in the starting area.
Some people simply enjoy taking advantage of other people.


This is usually the reason smurfs exist in ranked games.

To look at more recent events, this is why some people are not thrilled about the fan made network fix to Street Fighter V because since it was made by a fan people who have it hold an insurmountable advantage over anyone who doesn't have it.
 

texhnolyze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,695
Indonesia
Some people simply enjoy taking advantage of other people.
Yes, but you need go get out of the starting area and get to high levels first to start killing newbies like that. And it's basically an act of revenge for what you experienced when starting the game. The new batch of newbies will eventually reach high levels too, and they'll do the same thing.

And the cycle will never end. The cycle of pure toxicity.
 

LightKiosk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,683
More MMOs need to copy Runescape's wilderness in that a chunk of the map is cut out solely for higher level stuff and solely PKing, with certain tiers in the wilderness giving a larger level gap between who can attack each other.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,923
Yes, but you need go get out of the starting area and get to high levels first to start killing newbies like that. And it's basically an act of revenge for what you experienced when starting the game. The new batch of newbies will eventually reach high levels too, and they'll do the same thing.

And the cycle will never end. The cycle of pure toxicity.
I end up attacking others if I am in position of power. In Atlas, I killed people. Women and children. It didn't matter whether they were ignoring me, sleeping or even talking. Being in the party amplifies the macho herd instincts to harass other people :(

To my surprise, other people, completely randoms, attacked me in my adventures. Fucking savages, why can't I just sail or gather resources in peace.

More MMOs need to copy Runescape's wilderness in that a chunk of the map is cut out solely for higher level stuff and solely PKing, with certain tiers in the wilderness giving a larger level gap between who can attack each other.
Runescape's wilderness was crap. Even before all the updates, it never had enough resources in it to make it worthwhile. It is a food chain:
Gatherers/PVE - Scrub solo PKer - Good Solo PKer - Small PK Group - Clan

The only reason to go to the wilderness was largely just to go there for the thrill. I think some mini-game was giving resources at some point, but for the most part, it was runite + green dragons, and it was barely worth dropping food to collect those resources from killed gatherers. You were literally way better off just killing monsters in the safe zones: getting XP and better loot without risking anything.

Albion's system is a much much better one, but perhaps one notch too extreme considering that it stacks a little too much of the game's resources inside dangerous areas. Basically, the game's economy should force (through the market pricing) players to gather resources in the dangerous areas, which would attract the previous food chain.

What is wrong in Albion is that you, as a solo or a small group, cannot survive in high risk zones. Either you join the guild or your experience is a miserable bottom feeder.
 

LightKiosk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,683
The only reason to go to the wilderness was largely just to go there for the thrill.
I mean, yeah.... PKing is kinda all about the thrill, especially in Runescape where dying means you lose your entire inventory. It also spawned off specialty builds within a certain level with certain stats that can fight each other. I wouldn't be surprised if in OSRS right now, the wilderness is thriving more than ever.

I definitely acknowledge your complaints about Runescape's system, but I wouldn't call it crap. If anything the idea New World seems to be going with where PvP is tied into capturing a zone or something on the map is just asking for a boring, mindless zerg vs zerg that became incredibly tiring in GW2's WvW mode.
 

Speely

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,013
Mordred was the red headed stepchild cesspool of DAOC, and in the golden days was by far one of the smallest servers, where people would be getting serial griefed unless they were in a PK gang.

I would know, my wife and I tried to level characters there and were getting followed and harrassed by groups every time we left sanctuary cities. I think we both quit this miserable experience before we hit 30, going back to and enjoying regular RvR servers.

Amazon has the right idea here, you don't make a big budget mmo by catering to a niche hardcore experience which was in idea even more extreme than Eve Online (which has Hisec).

How well they will execute remains to be seen, but I am not surprised at all by the results of their tests, as it was also my experience.
You aren't wrong, but I was part of a protection guild when I played. It was the most fun I have ever had playing a MMORPG, because I was literally affecting the gameplay.

Yes, Mordred was less-populated, but it was unique. Open PvP can be done well, and it can also be done poorly. It seems like Amazon doesn't want to deal with this issue, which is understandable.
 

Mudo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
Tennessee
I know a lot of ppl are anted open pvp but I wasn’t going to try this due to it, and now I most likely will.

I’ve personally never done pvp in any mmo and play for the world/quest/character progression. I’ll be keeping an eye on this now
 

Artdayne

Member
Nov 7, 2017
3,421
A ton of pvp servers in classic are experience mass exodus of alliance players because they are getting ganked to the point of being unable to play / raid due to the large population gap favoring horde side.
Hmm. Yeah, that can be a down side. Typically server faction balance favors one over the other and you kind of learn over time how it is. I think one of the issues with Horde in Classic is they simply have better racials for the most part, plus I think people can be a bit edgy and think playing Alliance is lame. I think it would be better to have a reputation system where if you are repeatedly attacking lowbies there should be a bounty system in place that allows you to take something from you, of course WoW doesn't have that.
 

Blackrobe

Member
Nov 1, 2019
26
Personally, the PvP of Ultima Online was the peak of MMO PvP. However, after all these years, due to the vast increase in population of MMO players in general, I don't think it's even possible the have open world full loot PvP anymore. It makes me incredibly sad. :<

I'm getting the same "kind" of vibe through games like PUBG and more recently, Escape From Tarkov.
 

32X4LYF

alt account
Banned
Dec 25, 2019
220
This is hilarious. Does Amazon know there are more creative solutions to this "problem" that have been in use for years?
 

Windu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,421
I liked WoWs approach. Seperate servers. I don't care for pvp either but I think they should certainly let people have the option.

I guess they don't think they will have enough players to populate different server types.
 

Parcas

Member
Dec 12, 2017
361
WoW approach where you could not be atacked in most of the starting areas was good enough for it, you would not find high levels until you had a good feel of the game and then in old wow it was never that bad. Just make that beach area a place where you can not kill people and move that to other high level areas?
 

dtflip

Member
Oct 29, 2017
637
Seattle,WA
The game is DoA now. None of the players that dislike PKing were interested in this game in the first place and now they're just backtracking over the vision they were selling to people who were interested in the original PvP system.

Just another example of an MMO trying to be unique to set itself apart from the competition only to start backtracking on interesting mechanics so that it can be more mass market friendly, but in the process no longer appealing to anyone instead of everyone.

Barely anyone who says they're interested in the game now that PKing is gone will even remember this game exists.
 
OP
OP
Lord Arcadio

Lord Arcadio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,136
I hope there's more to pve besides killing mobs. The change of direction for the game is fine with me, but they need the content to back it up. Release is in a few months. It may have been too late to build the type of game they weren't making from the start.
 

TheZynster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,251
I mean they have a system in place so you can flag on or off though
And you can only do it in the main cities. Which means you are flagged when out deep unless you want to spend a good amount of time backtraveling to the city to turn it off.

WoWs current WAR system works great and keeps both player bases happy while not segregating players altogether.

it’s something I wish Aion had.
 

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,510
And you can only do it in the main cities. Which means you are flagged when out deep unless you want to spend a good amount of time backtraveling to the city to turn it off.

WoWs current WAR system works great and keeps both player bases happy while not segregating players altogether.

it’s something I wish Aion had.
Is Aion still alive nowadays?
 

TheZynster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,251
Is Aion still alive nowadays?
its got its core group of players. It’s still got a decent population, but nothing like the old days. I still login and like leveling a character. It’s probably of my top mmorpgs in that launches in the last 12 years or so.
WoW, XIV, Aion, Age of Conan and SWTOR.

Are pretty much my top 5 of the recent subbed mmorpgs.

if Aion didn’t have such a Korean level grind when it launched it would have probably still a pretty damn big base to this day. It amazes me how big of a mmorpg thatgame was for its first year or so
 

Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,771
Washington
Designing your game around potential player behavior feels like a mistake, but ok.
Uh, not designing your game with how players will behave is a mistake. Unless you don't care that it becomes a toxic playground that chases most anyone except maybe the hardcore away. Or don't care about the many ways people will abuse the system to fuck everyone else over and make it unfair to everyone that isn't them. When you are designing a game to be a multiplayer game, player behavior is absolutely important to consider when designing it.

Anyways, I'm not going to cry over anyone who is upset cause they now can't grief people or have fun by making other people not have fun. If your fun involves making other people miserable, I could not care less if your fun is ruined (in fact I hope your fun is ruined).
 

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,510
its got its core group of players. It’s still got a decent population, but nothing like the old days. I still login and like leveling a character. It’s probably of my top mmorpgs in that launches in the last 12 years or so.
WoW, XIV, Aion, Age of Conan and SWTOR.

Are pretty much my top 5 of the recent subbed mmorpgs.

if Aion didn’t have such a Korean level grind when it launched it would have probably still a pretty damn big base to this day. It amazes me how big of a mmorpg thatgame was for its first year or so
Nice to hear that it isn't dead! But yeah I feel similar about Aion, I even have the Collectors Edition standing here and it was a really special and interesting MMO experience that I loved in theory, especially the flying. The grind was what made me unable to continue though especially since none of my friends were interested and I had to play alone. That along with the monthly-sub made me nope out.

Could I still log-in to the F2P version with my old account? I would love to revisit some locations atleast.
 

StrayDog

Avenger
Jul 14, 2018
887
What meaningless dev diary. No real info at all. They are recycling the same old interview lol
Dec 22, 2019 https://youtu.be/cU7eZlceDGg?t=104
Feb 14, 2020 https://youtu.be/Gc26Q-AwdSw?t=133

“The spine of the game is player versus player combat. You’ll probably be murdered in New World. So, yes, players will be able to freely kill other players, but we have a number of systems like Sanctuary and Criminal Justice, which add interesting consequence and drama to that experience. I came to realize that the constant press of danger was fundamental to the thrill of the game—making New World a peaceful world would deprive players of the stakes and drama of trying to forge a new life in an uncaring and supernatural wilderness.” - Patrick Gilmore, Amazon Games Studio Director, 2019 January.
2019, Aug - Patrick GIlmore, Head of Studios at BetterUp
 
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