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American journalists are going after Omar Ilhan again

Ichthyosaurus

Member
Dec 26, 2018
8,446
There's nothing wrong with how she phrased her criticism.
Posters have explained in this thread that this is not true, and it's not the first time she's done this. You can't just say shit about Israel without being super delicate to be absolutely clear you're not using anti-semitic language due to context and I'm not talking about the bad faith accusations by the the GOP and Israel.
 

Typhonsentra

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,029
Posters have explained in this thread that this is not true, and it's not the first time she's done this. You can't just say shit about Israel without being super delicate to be absolutely clear you're not using anti-semitic language due to context and I'm not talking about the bad faith accusations by the the GOP and Israel.
Bullshit. The criticism of her statement s are absolutely in bad faith. Saying what she said is antisemitic is 100% the same as saying that criticism of Israeli-US relations is impossible. If you think I am exaggerating, please provide an example of valid criticism.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,090
Posters have explained in this thread that this is not true, and it's not the first time she's done this. You can't just say shit about Israel without being super delicate to be absolutely clear you're not using anti-semitic language due to context and I'm not talking about the bad faith accusations by the the GOP and Israel.
Her context could not have been clearer, she's talking about anti-bds laws that trample all over the first amendment rights, especially of muslim americans. What has been happening ever since are a bunch of 'liberal allies' telling her to be careful about what she says while also putting words in her mouth and if's really fucking gross.
 

Byakuya769

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
2,067
Muslims being antisemitic is really an anti-Islamic trope that we should be wary of when criticising any Muslim person.
 

JayBee

Alt-account
Banned
Dec 6, 2018
1,332
Bullshit. The criticism of her statement s are absolutely in bad faith. Saying what she said is antisemitic is 100% the same as saying that criticism of Israeli-US relations is impossible. If you think I am exaggerating, please provide an example of valid criticism.
This is why israel gets away with murder everyday, and see in this thread how that way is paved for them
 

Ichthyosaurus

Member
Dec 26, 2018
8,446
Her context could not have been clearer, she's talking about anti-bds laws that trample all over the first amendment rights, especially of muslim americans.
Context and phrasing, both have got her in very hot water over this issue lately, and in the past. It continues to happen, it's depressing.

What has been happening ever since are a bunch of 'liberal allies' telling her to be careful about what she says while also putting words in her mouth and if's really fucking gross.
You do realise these include Jewish Democrats, right? Nobody's putting words in her mouth. Presentation is super important for anybody with antisemitism, never mind a US congresswoman.
 

Typhonsentra

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,029
Context and phrasing, both have got her in very hot water over this issue lately, and in the past. It continues to happen, it's depressing.



You do realise these include Jewish Democrats, right? Nobody's putting words in her mouth. Presentation is super important for anybody with antisemitism, never mind a US congresswoman.
If you are not able to provide an example of criticism of Israel which is not antisemitic in your eyes, you leave people no choice but to believe you have been arguing in bad faith.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,090
Context and phrasing, both have got her in very hot water over this issue lately, and in the past. It continues to happen, it's depressing.



You do realise these include Jewish Democrats, right? Nobody's putting words in her mouth. Presentation is super important for anybody with antisemitism, never mind a US congresswoman.
The quote:
“I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is okay to push for allegiance to a foreign country.”

The headline:
"Ilhan Omar accuses pro-Israel activists of dual loyalty."

You:
"She better watch what she says."

What's happening here is she's being presented as some kind of villain, like it's her fault alone that her words are being twisted beyond recognition to paint her as an anti-semite and you're so gleefully along for that ride, like she's the one who needs to adjust how she acts.

Like I said. Really. Fucking. Gross.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Member
Dec 26, 2018
8,446
If you are not able to provide an example of criticism of Israel which is not antisemitic in your eyes, you leave people no choice but to believe you have been arguing in bad faith.
Which is not what I've been doing. Have you been reading my posts at all?

The quote:
“I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is okay to push for allegiance to a foreign country.”

The headline:
"Ilhan Omar accuses pro-Israel activists of dual loyalty."

You:
"She better watch what she says."

What's happening here is she's being presented as some kind of villain, like it's her fault alone that her words are being twisted beyond recognition to paint her as an anti-semite and you're so gleefully along for that ride, like she's the one who needs to adjust how she acts.

Like I said. Really. Fucking. Gross.
Dual loyalty is a trope in anti-semitism. I'm not gleefully doing anything, and yes, everyone must be careful with their words, particularly politicians on multiple issues. It's not like society hasn't got phrasing issues regarding racism or sexism, but you're ignoring this when it comes to a congresswoman being seen as a anti-semite?

Do you want her to be viewed asn anti-semite by Democrats, because I don't. Doing this is not helping her career, or how she's viewed by her own allies.

Why are you erasing the Jewish Democrats from this?
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,042
Bandung Indonesia
Then maybe she should mention them? If you speak generally when using what is generally an antisemitic remark, in this context, you include Jews, so it would be a good idea to maybe choose words carefully and specify the target, the Evangelicals?

She can say something antisemitic without intentionally being antisemitic. All I said that this is a very well known highly antisemitic dog whistle to say in Germany and I am sure elsewhere as well, that a Jew or Jews have "dual loyalty", it is text book Nazi rhetoric. So yes, irrespective of who it is, what she said here was worded very wrong and it is a dog whistle to say Jews have a dual loyalty. If you misused words, words that have for over 100 years been Nazi rhetoric, then yes she should choose words carefully? If she meant to target Evangelicals then that's a big fuck up not to specify when using such a remark.

I do not understand the political landscape of Evangelism 100% in the U.S as it is very very different from Europe, so if they are major Israel supporters, then why does she not talk specifically address them? Why talk in general terms using a dog whistle, which include Jewish people? If she thought more about what she said, she could be specific about the demographic and therefore detach the antisemitic slant.

I have no idea who Rohrbacher is, as I said I am not from the U.S
The 'dual loyalty' thing is something that the journalists said, not her.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,090
Dual loyalty is a trope in anti-semitism. I'm not gleefully doing anything, and yes, everyone must be careful with their words, particularly politicians on multiple issues. It's not like society hasn't got phrasing issues regarding racism or sexism, but you're ignoring this when it comes to a congresswoman being seen as a anti-semite?
Show me where she used the words 'dual loyalty.' You literally can't without putting words in her mouth that she didn't say.

You're along for the ride as long as you parrot this twisted version of what she says, out of some transparently fake concern that the words of a muslim woman of color's might get weaponized by extremists, something that has time and again never needed any help from anybody to happen in the history of this country.

Still really fucking gross.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Member
Dec 26, 2018
8,446
The 'dual loyalty' thing is something that the journalists said, not her.
My mistake.

Show me where she used the words 'dual loyalty.' You literally can't without putting words in her mouth that she didn't say.

You're along for the ride as long as you parrot this twisted version of what she says, out of some transparently fake concern that the words of a muslim woman of color's might get weaponized by extremists, something that has time and again never needed any help from anybody to happen in the history of this country.

Still really fucking gross.
I'm stunned. It's like you want her to lose her career in congress, and are ok ignoring the Jewish community in the Democratic party.

There is no "might" that's happened, and I've been trying to stop that but you don't. You're fine with Omar giving the GOP and Israel the tools they need to sideline her when she's a badly needed voice in congress for the people you speak of.
 

dabig2

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,593
Muslims being antisemitic is really an anti-Islamic trope that we should be wary of when criticising any Muslim person.
Don't forget the anti-black tropes. Hell, most of them are coded into laws and still nationally accepted in politics and media and disseminated around the world. And combined with the anti-Muslim tropes, you see a nefarious prejudice that sees a crafted visage of their own bias, and then they twists her words and invent their own context in order to feel aggrieved.

It's a classic hate trope, but still needs to be called out. Like Israel's ongoing apartheid and ethnic cleansing and their allies and shields around the world who guarantee that status quo, some for money and power, some because they're psycopaths, and some because they're fucking cowards hiding from the former beneficiaries.

Like I mentioned, history will be kind to her. I can't say that about her detractors. Or else we're absolutely screwed in the future if we allow this nonsense to persist and thrive.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,090
You're fine with Omar giving the GOP and Israel the tools they need to sideline her when she's a badly needed voice in congress for the people you speak of.
She's not to blame for any of this happening because the journos in the OP are outright lying about what she said.
It's weird that you still want her accountable for others completely misrepresenting her.
The GOP and the pro-Israel lobby never needed her to do or say anything in any particular way to be stymied in their attempts to paint her as The Enemy.
Me pointing any of this out is furthermore not me surrendering any ground to their propaganda machine, which doesn't give a shit about what I do or do not believe.
 

Zoc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,016
Does not change the fact the Israel is also settler colonialism. They formed their refuge by kicking out the natives of Palestine and taking their land because the British empire decided it so - the natives were not asked for their opinions on this and many lost their homes. The Nakba happened. And the Palestinians kicked out and their descendants? Not allowed to return to Israel - they still have the pictures and memories of their houses now occupied by other people and made into government buildings.

Palestinian refugees don't have a state and anywhere to go.
The Naqba is Israel’s founding sin, for which they haven’t even begun to atone. They absolutely must allow the refugees to return and withdraw to the 1967 border. That said, modern Israelis don’t have anywhere to go either, you’d be in the wrong if you wanted them to go anywhere.
 

Dude Abides

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,023
It's wild the amount of hate there is in the world for the new-age Democrats.
The anti-black racism and islamophobia of DLC Democrats is, unfortunately, undeniable and unabashed. Goes back to Sista Souljah, Superpredators, Ricky Rector, and Iraq war cheerleading. Sadly, some who should know better are happy to carry their water, as we see in this thread.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,531
UK
It's wild how many posters here ran with the "dual loyalty" and didn't check that Ilhan never said that. Criticism of AIPAC is not that.
 

anamika

Member
May 18, 2018
615
The Naqba is Israel’s founding sin, for which they haven’t even begun to atone. They absolutely must allow the refugees to return and withdraw to the 1967 border. That said, modern Israelis don’t have anywhere to go either, you’d be in the wrong if you wanted them to go anywhere.
Did anyone say that modern Israelis should go somewhere? What is done is done. They are there now. The only solution here now is one state - allow the Palestinians to come back and form a secular state with equal, democratic rights for everyone.

If the Hindus and Muslims in India can overcome centuries of hate and form a secular country, then so can the Muslims and Jews in Israel. Will it be easy? Hell no. Will there be religious violence and fighting? Yes. But nothing like this will be easy and we have to start somewhere towards a more peaceful, secular existence in that region.

However, what is currently being done to the Palestinians is just totally unacceptable and a grave, horrible evil. The Western world - especially the British - did this and now are sitting by watching as the Palestinians are slowly eradicated from their lands.
 
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JustinP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,321
She did deserve some criticism for the sloppy Benjamins tweet but this is what it looks like when only the bad faith actors try to stir shit up. It is obvious she is not talking about jewish people when she says Israel hawks.
 

Mahonay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,321
Pencils Vania
Our absolute unwavering and downright fanatical support of a blatantly apartheid state is one of things I’m most ashamed of as an American. It feels like it will never change, especially now that they’re pushing laws making it illegal to even criticize Israel. Those are the kind of laws somewhere like Saudi Arabia or Russia has, not America. It’s a frightening failing of our democracy.

I suppose since we are in bed with Saudi Arabia as well it only makes sense that we start to emulate their qualities.
 
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dabig2

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,593
Our absolute unwavering and downright fanatical support of a blatantly apartheid state is one of things I’m most ashamed of as an American. It feels like it will never change, especially now that they’re pushing laws making it illegal to even crticize Israel. Those are the kind of laws somewhere like Saudi Arabia or Russia has, not America. It’s a frightening failing of our democracy.

I suppose since we are in bed with Saudi Arabia as well it only makes sense that we start to emulate their qualities.
True. I always just remember that this country is run by a religious death cult, and that we were born and crafted out of slavery, genocide, and ethnic supremacy. Even Hitler picked up on some of ongoing greatest hits to start enacting his madness and cruelty.

Thus why I will never be surprised at the USA's complicity in evil.
 

Mahonay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,321
Pencils Vania
True. I always just remember that this country is run by a religious death cult, and that we were born and crafted out of slavery, genocide, and ethnic supremacy. Even Hitler picked up on some of ongoing greatest hits to start enacting his madness and cruelty.

Thus why I will never be surprised at the USA's complicity in evil.
I guess it should really be no surprise.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,341
This assertion is wrong. And, to be clear, it's inverse is also wrong.

The majority of anti-semitic opinions, violence, etc. will come from white Americans because they are the majority, yes. That doesn't mean that it can't or won't be present in other groups.
You think Jews in the US are threatened by black social democrats from Minnesota?
Like, for real?
I'm a Jew living in the US and I REALLY don't feel personality threatened by her quoting Jay Z or whatever, and I'm still unclear how any of what she said supposed to incite violence against me.
I'm really really not.
Now the assholes who are calling her a terrorists, I can totally see how their shit is going to come back to bite me in the ass, but they support Israel so like whatever.

South Africa started its existence as a colonialist slave state. Israel started as a refuge for the survivors of centuries of oppression in Europe, not to mention the Holocaust.
You seem to be a little out of date on the current makeup of antisemites. There are plenty of Muslim antisemites out there who will get a boost from comments like this.
I'm Jew of eastern European descent, 90% of my extend family was lost in the holocaust, I don't need you to explain antisemitism to me, thank you very much.
And to say Jews in the US are threatened by the left is fucking bullshit, the GOP has been trying to make that a thing since forever, but it's just not true.
 

Zoc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,016
I'm Jew of eastern European descent, 90% of my extend family was lost in the holocaust, I don't need you to explain antisemitism to me, thank you very much.
And to say Jews in the US are threatened by the left is fucking bullshit, the GOP has been trying to make that a thing since forever, but it's just not true.
A real left wing hardly exists in the US, and doesn’t exist at all in either political party, so a lot of this doesn’t yet apply to the states in a practical way. However, the real left wing wherever it does exist (ie Europe) is staunchly pro-Palestine, which absolutely, unfortunately, makes it vulnerable to infection by antisemitism. It’s too easy to start thinking “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” and start making excuses for antisemitic shit rolling in from Israel’s enemies in the Middle East.
 

Sinfamy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,724
Nothing calms the "Jews control the media" narrative quite like the media banging the anti-Semitism drum at the tepid criticisms.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,341
A real left wing hardly exists in the US, and doesn’t exist at all in either political party, so a lot of this doesn’t yet apply to the states in a practical way. However, the real left wing wherever it does exist (ie Europe) is staunchly pro-Palestine, which absolutely, unfortunately, makes it vulnerable to infection by antisemitism. It’s too easy to start thinking “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” and start making excuses for antisemitic shit rolling in from Israel’s enemies in the Middle East.
Those are a lot of words, but I'm still unsure how saying "I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is okay to push for allegiance to a foreign country” is suppose to incite racist attacks against me.
Please, explain to me how do you think that would work, I don't get it and I really don't feel threaten by any of this.
 

ThomasJames

Member
Jan 15, 2019
1,821
Would it? I’ve lost faith in a lot of youth who’ve embraced the alt-right with open arms.
Lemme instill some faith:
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/01/17/generation-z-looks-a-lot-like-millennials-on-key-social-and-political-issues/
Only about three-in-ten Gen Zers and Millennials (30% and 29%, respectively) approve of the way Donald Trump is handling his job as president. This compares with 38% of Gen Xers, 43% of Boomers and 54% of Silents.
This time around, the "silent majority" are by far progressives, not conservatives. The alt-right youtube conspiracy crowd is easy to find on the internet but pretty damn hard to find in real life. A million alt-right US citizens on the internet comes out to an average of 20k voters per state. That's not even 1/3 of Pennsylvania's margin in 2016. They aren't worth our attention.

edit- to put it in more clear terms, if there are one million millenial/gen-z alt-right types in the country, then in terms of 2016 results they probably represent less than one half of 1% of PA voters. We need to understand how big the country is and start stomping these people out in terms of the attention we give them. Even if you think I should double my numbers they still represent less than 1%. Laugh them the fuck off the stage. They are not a serious force. They are a fragile collective of incels and Extremely Online trolls. They are only a significant amount of people in youtube comments. Once voting booths are involved, they are severely outnumbered.
 
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Mahonay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,321
Pencils Vania
Lemme instill some faith:
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/01/17/generation-z-looks-a-lot-like-millennials-on-key-social-and-political-issues/


This time around, the "silent majority" are by far progressives, not conservatives. The alt-right youtube conspiracy crowd is easy to find on the internet but pretty damn hard to find in real life. A million alt-right US citizens on the internet comes out to an average of 20k voters per state. That's not even 1/3 of Pennsylvania's margin in 2016. They aren't worth our attention.
I truly hope those numbers coincide with future voting numbers. At least the midterms went about as good as I hoped. I guess it’s hard to be hopeful with the current state of things. I’m definitely overly pessimistic at times.
 

ThomasJames

Member
Jan 15, 2019
1,821
I truly hope those numbers coincide with future voting numbers. At least the midterms went about as good as I hoped. I guess it’s hard to be hopeful with the current state of things. I’m definitely overly pessimistic at times.
I edited my post but I think it pretty much says everything I'd respond to this post with. There's no need for us to be pessimistic. We're watching the death throes of white nationalism (which has always run this country but has only started doing so overtly, mainly out of necessity.)
 

Clipjoint

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
157
User Banned (Permanent): Antisemitism, history of inflammatory commentary, account in junior phase.
Anti-Semitic tropes that should be avoided:

Jews control the media - so don't criticize the media's overwhelming bias towards Israel.
Jews control all the money - so don't criticize the influence of political donations in generating support for Israel (i.e. all about the Benjamins).
Jews have dual-loyalty - so don't criticize any efforts to undermine the Constitution to criminalize opposition to Israel.
Jews partake in "blood libel" - so don't criticize the Israelis overwhelming use of violence against Palestinians for decades.

As long as you avoid discussing the media, money, politics, and violence, you're safe in advocating for Palestinian rights. Otherwise, you're skirting too close to those Anti-Semitic tropes and you might offend the people who maybe someday will finally use their privilege to speak up for your rights.

Oh but also, if pro-Israel Jews use these tropes, it's ok because they're said in the proper context, but if Jewish critics of Israel use them, they're self-hating Jews who have been radicalized by the Palestinians and the far left.
 

zer0blivion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,266
Canada
Anti-Semitic tropes that should be avoided:

Jews control the media - so don't criticize the media's overwhelming bias towards Israel.
Jews control all the money - so don't criticize the influence of political donations in generating support for Israel (i.e. all about the Benjamins).
Jews have dual-loyalty - so don't criticize any efforts to undermine the Constitution to criminalize opposition to Israel.
Jews partake in "blood libel" - so don't criticize the Israelis overwhelming use of violence against Palestinians for decades.

As long as you avoid discussing the media, money, politics, and violence, you're safe in advocating for Palestinian rights. Otherwise, you're skirting too close to those Anti-Semitic tropes and you might offend the people who maybe someday will finally use their privilege to speak up for your rights.

Oh but also, if pro-Israel Jews use these tropes, it's ok because they're said in the proper context, but if Jewish critics of Israel use them, they're self-hating Jews who have been radicalized by the Palestinians and the far left.
 
Oct 27, 2017
400
Let the chapo bois run you through the bad faith arguments and hypotheticals that spring up like turds in a clogged toilet every time someone gives Israel a crooked eye.

 

Jeb

Avenger
Mar 14, 2018
1,104
The conversation keeps getting spun to Antisemitism, even in Era.
There is a legit problem in Aipac but the pro Aipac defense keeps winning because the conversation just reverts to “antisemitism” and tone policing
 

anamika

Member
May 18, 2018
615
Let the chapo bois run you through the bad faith arguments and hypotheticals that spring up like turds in a clogged toilet every time someone gives Israel a crooked eye.

Wow, that was a good listen. These guys pretty much exactly captured the 31 page discussion on Resetera on Omar's comments on AIPAC and money last week.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Member
Dec 26, 2018
8,446
Chapo, really? It's fine to defend Omar, but at least get Michael Brooks in your corner. He'll have something insightful to say.


The conversation keeps getting spun to Antisemitism, even in Era.
There is a legit problem in Aipac but the pro Aipac defense keeps winning because the conversation just reverts to “antisemitism” and tone policing
Because her attacks on Israel have often gone over the line into looking like anti-Semitism in Democratic circles - which is bad for obvious reasons.

AIPAC and Israel keeps winning because no-one has managed to successfully take their power away and sloppy attacks like she's made in the past serve to strengthen them while weakening her reputation with her allies. Whether you like it or not how people say things matters, as does her reputation and she won't stay a politician long if this keeps happening. How is she supposed to hurt them when her rep is in tatters as an anti-semite and she's no longer a politician? How does this help Palestine or strengthen her position to launch an offensive that can hurt them politically? Or is that the plan, to make her a political martyr?
 
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Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,337
The conversation keeps getting spun to Antisemitism, even in Era.
There is a legit problem in Aipac but the pro Aipac defense keeps winning because the conversation just reverts to “antisemitism” and tone policing
A major reason this keeps happening is that some (Hi Michael Tracey) are actively interested in conflating good and bad faith critiques all together under the "bad faith" label and it's a huge, huge problem.
You think Jews in the US are threatened by black social democrats from Minnesota?
Like, for real?
I'm a Jew living in the US and I REALLY don't feel personality threatened by her quoting Jay Z or whatever, and I'm still unclear how any of what she said supposed to incite violence against me.
I'm really really not.
Now the assholes who are calling her a terrorists, I can totally see how their shit is going to come back to bite me in the ass, but they support Israel so like whatever.
Your belief that non-white people in the US can't possibly be anti-semitic is statement totally at odds with reality. It's not just a white majority thing, even though the majority of people with those views will be white because they're the majority. Just because you aren't feeling threatened doesn't mean that those beliefs aren't harmful, that letting them go unchallenged is not a problem, that trying to increase understanding isn't necessary. The beliefs are what breeds the violence. Allowing the conspiracy theories to spread with no pushback, allowing them to run unchecked, that's what will inevitably erupt if you don't fight it.