Funny how it's not anti-Semitic when it's written in this context:
This is why phrasing is important. Do it correctly, no-one will bat an eyelash.
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American journalists are going after Omar Ilhan again
- Thread starter OtherWorldly
- Start date
This is why phrasing is important. Do it correctly, no-one will bat an eyelash.
There's nothing wrong with how she phrased her criticism.
Posters have explained in this thread that this is not true, and it's not the first time she's done this. You can't just say shit about Israel without being super delicate to be absolutely clear you're not using anti-semitic language due to context and I'm not talking about the bad faith accusations by the the GOP and Israel.
Bullshit. The criticism of her statement s are absolutely in bad faith. Saying what she said is antisemitic is 100% the same as saying that criticism of Israeli-US relations is impossible. If you think I am exaggerating, please provide an example of valid criticism.
Her context could not have been clearer, she's talking about anti-bds laws that trample all over the first amendment rights, especially of muslim americans. What has been happening ever since are a bunch of 'liberal allies' telling her to be careful about what she says while also putting words in her mouth and if's really fucking gross.
Muslims being antisemitic is really an anti-Islamic trope that we should be wary of when criticising any Muslim person.
This is why israel gets away with murder everyday, and see in this thread how that way is paved for them
Context and phrasing, both have got her in very hot water over this issue lately, and in the past. It continues to happen, it's depressing.
You do realise these include Jewish Democrats, right? Nobody's putting words in her mouth. Presentation is super important for anybody with antisemitism, never mind a US congresswoman.
If you are not able to provide an example of criticism of Israel which is not antisemitic in your eyes, you leave people no choice but to believe you have been arguing in bad faith.
The quote:
"I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is okay to push for allegiance to a foreign country."
The headline:
"Ilhan Omar accuses pro-Israel activists of dual loyalty."
You:
"She better watch what she says."
What's happening here is she's being presented as some kind of villain, like it's her fault alone that her words are being twisted beyond recognition to paint her as an anti-semite and you're so gleefully along for that ride, like she's the one who needs to adjust how she acts.
Like I said. Really. Fucking. Gross.
Which is not what I've been doing. Have you been reading my posts at all?
Dual loyalty is a trope in anti-semitism. I'm not gleefully doing anything, and yes, everyone must be careful with their words, particularly politicians on multiple issues. It's not like society hasn't got phrasing issues regarding racism or sexism, but you're ignoring this when it comes to a congresswoman being seen as a anti-semite?
Do you want her to be viewed asn anti-semite by Democrats, because I don't. Doing this is not helping her career, or how she's viewed by her own allies.
Why are you erasing the Jewish Democrats from this?
The 'dual loyalty' thing is something that the journalists said, not her.
Show me where she used the words 'dual loyalty.' You literally can't without putting words in her mouth that she didn't say.
You're along for the ride as long as you parrot this twisted version of what she says, out of some transparently fake concern that the words of a muslim woman of color's might get weaponized by extremists, something that has time and again never needed any help from anybody to happen in the history of this country.
Still really fucking gross.
My mistake.
I'm stunned. It's like you want her to lose her career in congress, and are ok ignoring the Jewish community in the Democratic party.
There is no "might" that's happened, and I've been trying to stop that but you don't. You're fine with Omar giving the GOP and Israel the tools they need to sideline her when she's a badly needed voice in congress for the people you speak of.
Why am I not even remotely surprised you only selectively read the thread before badgering me
Jesus christ.
Don't forget the anti-black tropes. Hell, most of them are coded into laws and still nationally accepted in politics and media and disseminated around the world. And combined with the anti-Muslim tropes, you see a nefarious prejudice that sees a crafted visage of their own bias, and then they twists her words and invent their own context in order to feel aggrieved.
It's a classic hate trope, but still needs to be called out. Like Israel's ongoing apartheid and ethnic cleansing and their allies and shields around the world who guarantee that status quo, some for money and power, some because they're psycopaths, and some because they're fucking cowards hiding from the former beneficiaries.
Like I mentioned, history will be kind to her. I can't say that about her detractors. Or else we're absolutely screwed in the future if we allow this nonsense to persist and thrive.
She's not to blame for any of this happening because the journos in the OP are outright lying about what she said.
It's weird that you still want her accountable for others completely misrepresenting her.
The GOP and the pro-Israel lobby never needed her to do or say anything in any particular way to be stymied in their attempts to paint her as The Enemy.
Me pointing any of this out is furthermore not me surrendering any ground to their propaganda machine, which doesn't give a shit about what I do or do not believe.
The Naqba is Israel's founding sin, for which they haven't even begun to atone. They absolutely must allow the refugees to return and withdraw to the 1967 border. That said, modern Israelis don't have anywhere to go either, you'd be in the wrong if you wanted them to go anywhere.
The anti-black racism and islamophobia of DLC Democrats is, unfortunately, undeniable and unabashed. Goes back to Sista Souljah, Superpredators, Ricky Rector, and Iraq war cheerleading. Sadly, some who should know better are happy to carry their water, as we see in this thread.
It's wild how many posters here ran with the "dual loyalty" and didn't check that Ilhan never said that. Criticism of AIPAC is not that.
Just the usual suspects coming in here to derail the thread with lazy, bad faith attacks. Nothing will be done about it though, which is why they keep popping up. It just works™.
Did anyone say that modern Israelis should go somewhere? What is done is done. They are there now. The only solution here now is one state - allow the Palestinians to come back and form a secular state with equal, democratic rights for everyone.
If the Hindus and Muslims in India can overcome centuries of hate and form a secular country, then so can the Muslims and Jews in Israel. Will it be easy? Hell no. Will there be religious violence and fighting? Yes. But nothing like this will be easy and we have to start somewhere towards a more peaceful, secular existence in that region.
However, what is currently being done to the Palestinians is just totally unacceptable and a grave, horrible evil. The Western world - especially the British - did this and now are sitting by watching as the Palestinians are slowly eradicated from their lands.
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Our absolute unwavering and downright fanatical support of a blatantly apartheid state is one of things I'm most ashamed of as an American. It feels like it will never change, especially now that they're pushing laws making it illegal to even criticize Israel. Those are the kind of laws somewhere like Saudi Arabia or Russia has, not America. It's a frightening failing of our democracy.
I suppose since we are in bed with Saudi Arabia as well it only makes sense that we start to emulate their qualities.
I suppose since we are in bed with Saudi Arabia as well it only makes sense that we start to emulate their qualities.
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True. I always just remember that this country is run by a religious death cult, and that we were born and crafted out of slavery, genocide, and ethnic supremacy. Even Hitler picked up on some of ongoing greatest hits to start enacting his madness and cruelty.
Thus why I will never be surprised at the USA's complicity in evil.
You think Jews in the US are threatened by black social democrats from Minnesota?
Like, for real?
I'm a Jew living in the US and I REALLY don't feel personality threatened by her quoting Jay Z or whatever, and I'm still unclear how any of what she said supposed to incite violence against me.
I'm really really not.
Now the assholes who are calling her a terrorists, I can totally see how their shit is going to come back to bite me in the ass, but they support Israel so like whatever.
I'm Jew of eastern European descent, 90% of my extend family was lost in the holocaust, I don't need you to explain antisemitism to me, thank you very much.
And to say Jews in the US are threatened by the left is fucking bullshit, the GOP has been trying to make that a thing since forever, but it's just not true.
A real left wing hardly exists in the US, and doesn't exist at all in either political party, so a lot of this doesn't yet apply to the states in a practical way. However, the real left wing wherever it does exist (ie Europe) is staunchly pro-Palestine, which absolutely, unfortunately, makes it vulnerable to infection by antisemitism. It's too easy to start thinking "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and start making excuses for antisemitic shit rolling in from Israel's enemies in the Middle East.
Those are a lot of words, but I'm still unsure how saying "I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is okay to push for allegiance to a foreign country" is suppose to incite racist attacks against me.
Please, explain to me how do you think that would work, I don't get it and I really don't feel threaten by any of this.
Growing pains. This phase will pass. If elections were limited to, say, people under 50, then our elections would be wildly more left-wing than they are. Bernie would be boring.
Would it? I've lost faith in a lot of youth who've embraced the alt-right with open arms.
@ Jeremy Corbyn
it's near impossible to criticise Israel without backlash. Regardless of your background.
Lemme instill some faith:
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019...llennials-on-key-social-and-political-issues/
This time around, the "silent majority" are by far progressives, not conservatives. The alt-right youtube conspiracy crowd is easy to find on the internet but pretty damn hard to find in real life. A million alt-right US citizens on the internet comes out to an average of 20k voters per state. That's not even 1/3 of Pennsylvania's margin in 2016. They aren't worth our attention.
edit- to put it in more clear terms, if there are one million millenial/gen-z alt-right types in the country, then in terms of 2016 results they probably represent less than one half of 1% of PA voters. We need to understand how big the country is and start stomping these people out in terms of the attention we give them. Even if you think I should double my numbers they still represent less than 1%. Laugh them the fuck off the stage. They are not a serious force. They are a fragile collective of incels and Extremely Online trolls. They are only a significant amount of people in youtube comments. Once voting booths are involved, they are severely outnumbered.
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because fascism has largely been unchallenged until recently. seeing this should only inspire you to do more.
I truly hope those numbers coincide with future voting numbers. At least the midterms went about as good as I hoped. I guess it's hard to be hopeful with the current state of things. I'm definitely overly pessimistic at times.
I edited my post but I think it pretty much says everything I'd respond to this post with. There's no need for us to be pessimistic. We're watching the death throes of white nationalism (which has always run this country but has only started doing so overtly, mainly out of necessity.)
User Banned (Permanent): Antisemitism, history of inflammatory commentary, account in junior phase.
Anti-Semitic tropes that should be avoided:
Jews control the media - so don't criticize the media's overwhelming bias towards Israel.
Jews control all the money - so don't criticize the influence of political donations in generating support for Israel (i.e. all about the Benjamins).
Jews have dual-loyalty - so don't criticize any efforts to undermine the Constitution to criminalize opposition to Israel.
Jews partake in "blood libel" - so don't criticize the Israelis overwhelming use of violence against Palestinians for decades.
As long as you avoid discussing the media, money, politics, and violence, you're safe in advocating for Palestinian rights. Otherwise, you're skirting too close to those Anti-Semitic tropes and you might offend the people who maybe someday will finally use their privilege to speak up for your rights.
Oh but also, if pro-Israel Jews use these tropes, it's ok because they're said in the proper context, but if Jewish critics of Israel use them, they're self-hating Jews who have been radicalized by the Palestinians and the far left.
Jews control the media - so don't criticize the media's overwhelming bias towards Israel.
Jews control all the money - so don't criticize the influence of political donations in generating support for Israel (i.e. all about the Benjamins).
Jews have dual-loyalty - so don't criticize any efforts to undermine the Constitution to criminalize opposition to Israel.
Jews partake in "blood libel" - so don't criticize the Israelis overwhelming use of violence against Palestinians for decades.
As long as you avoid discussing the media, money, politics, and violence, you're safe in advocating for Palestinian rights. Otherwise, you're skirting too close to those Anti-Semitic tropes and you might offend the people who maybe someday will finally use their privilege to speak up for your rights.
Oh but also, if pro-Israel Jews use these tropes, it's ok because they're said in the proper context, but if Jewish critics of Israel use them, they're self-hating Jews who have been radicalized by the Palestinians and the far left.
Let the chapo bois run you through the bad faith arguments and hypotheticals that spring up like turds in a clogged toilet every time someone gives Israel a crooked eye.
Wow, that was a good listen. These guys pretty much exactly captured the 31 page discussion on Resetera on Omar's comments on AIPAC and money last week.
Its a trope, but enacting laws to forbid boycots of a foreign country are just that.
Chapo, really? It's fine to defend Omar, but at least get Michael Brooks in your corner. He'll have something insightful to say.
Because her attacks on Israel have often gone over the line into looking like anti-Semitism in Democratic circles - which is bad for obvious reasons.
AIPAC and Israel keeps winning because no-one has managed to successfully take their power away and sloppy attacks like she's made in the past serve to strengthen them while weakening her reputation with her allies. Whether you like it or not how people say things matters, as does her reputation and she won't stay a politician long if this keeps happening. How is she supposed to hurt them when her rep is in tatters as an anti-semite and she's no longer a politician? How does this help Palestine or strengthen her position to launch an offensive that can hurt them politically? Or is that the plan, to make her a political martyr?
Because her attacks on Israel have often gone over the line into looking like anti-Semitism in Democratic circles - which is bad for obvious reasons.
AIPAC and Israel keeps winning because no-one has managed to successfully take their power away and sloppy attacks like she's made in the past serve to strengthen them while weakening her reputation with her allies. Whether you like it or not how people say things matters, as does her reputation and she won't stay a politician long if this keeps happening. How is she supposed to hurt them when her rep is in tatters as an anti-semite and she's no longer a politician? How does this help Palestine or strengthen her position to launch an offensive that can hurt them politically? Or is that the plan, to make her a political martyr?
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A major reason this keeps happening is that some (Hi Michael Tracey) are actively interested in conflating good and bad faith critiques all together under the "bad faith" label and it's a huge, huge problem.
Your belief that non-white people in the US can't possibly be anti-semitic is statement totally at odds with reality. It's not just a white majority thing, even though the majority of people with those views will be white because they're the majority. Just because you aren't feeling threatened doesn't mean that those beliefs aren't harmful, that letting them go unchallenged is not a problem, that trying to increase understanding isn't necessary. The beliefs are what breeds the violence. Allowing the conspiracy theories to spread with no pushback, allowing them to run unchecked, that's what will inevitably erupt if you don't fight it.