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Oct 27, 2017
1,332
This is something I see happen far too often on this forum. Someone makes an analogy to make a point, and then are attacked with posts like:

"Wait, you think X is the same as Y ?????"

"Wow, saying X is the same as Y is very offensive dude."

"Nice false equivalence you got there."

Except, no-one was saying X is equal to Y, they were drawing a comparison in the form of an analogy. An analogy is not supposed to be exactly the same as the analogous example provided, otherwise there would be no need to make an analogy. The point of an analogy is to use the areas in which the two situations or things are similar in certain respects, those respects key to the argument being made, in order to help people understand. The two things may be vastly different in other respects, or especially degree.

Degree is a big one, because often someone will make an analogy to a much more serious example. Often the serious or extreme example being used is something that people have a very clear cut moral view on. Using this example can help present the point you are trying to make, without claiming that the two situations are equal in terms of severity or impact.

Usually this happens with analogies made to subjects with a strong emotional impact such as: Nazis, the Holocaust, Hitler, Slavery, Rape, Abortion, etc.. When making an analogy to one of these subjects it is going to be very rare to actually be discussing something of equal severity. A person making an analogy to these is not making an equivalence, but may be drawing a comparison to similar aspects but in a much lesser degree.

This does not mean that all analogies are good though. Absolutely there are bad analogies, where the comparison just doesn't work and the two situations are not at all similar. But don't get caught up in pointing out unrelated, tangential details between the two things being compared. And don't get so caught up in the degree of severity between the two things. Point out bad analogies because they don't work.

I think if you respond to an analogy by accusing someone of making an equivalence you are de facto arguing in bad faith. You can claim in analogy is bad, doesn't work, or is in bad taste, but accusing someone of making an equivalence is not fair or accurate.

In accordance with that though, perhaps avoid analogies that you know are going to send people into an emotional tizzy. Don't always jump straight to Hitler or slavery for your analogy. Even if it does work in the limited scope you are intending, it may have the unintended effect of making people angry.
 
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Oct 28, 2017
5,210
Yeah it would be like saying "the Moon is to the Earth as the Earth is to the Sun". And then somebody complains by saying "What are you talking about? The size proportion between the Moon/Earth vs Earth/Sun are nowhere similar! How can you make such a ridiculous comparison?"



btw, this is an analogy of how others conflate how to analyze an analogy. I'm not literally saying people do this exact kind of analysis for this example.
 

Rackham

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,532
Thank you OP. I 100% agree with you. Many posters seem to be more worried about feeling morally superior or smarter than actually respond.

"False equivalency, dude."
 

Joe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,615
I do see this a lot, especially with politics. At risk of possibly derailing this thread by bringing politics, it's very frequent. Something like "This is dumb! Democrats are doing the same thing we criticize Republicans for!" is sometimes met with these angry reactions as if the person had said "Democrats are the same as Republicans!"

Two things can have traits in common, and comparisons can be drawn between them, without needing to act as though these things are equally good or bad. It just seems to get done a lot in bad faith.
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,108
Austria
Absolutely. When comparing something and making sure to mention what property is being compared, it should be clear that equivalency in any other matters is not implied.
If I state that I think we shouldn't be punching right-wing people in the streets (Please do not try to discuss this here, honestly.) because all violence is wrong, I am implicitly comparing it to truly vile stuff.
This is enough for some people to act like I am equating these acts, saying punching a nazi is just as bad as something honestly much more terrible.
I realize this is not exactly an analogy there, but I believe it's part of the issue. People take things as 1:1 comparisons that are not meant to be that.

saying an anology is not an equivalence is like saying rump is not a fascist
That doesn't even make sense. An analogy draws equivalence in certain areas, but not in all. That's the point.
I can say "my uncle is like Trump in that he keeps repeating himself". What OP is talking about is that certain people treat arguments like this like the statement was just "my uncle is like Trump"
 

Doctor_Thomas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,657
I think people have, genuinely, lost the ability to rationally argue and debate in the past few years, not just the dismissal or misunderstanding of why people use analogies.
 

Deleted member 9479

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,953
Agreed, 100%. It's such a weak defense and if I had any stomach for most online debate these days I'd be calling it out left and right.
 

Brashnir

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,236
It's just another form of mental gymnastics people perform so that they don't have to question their worldview.

They will choose to only acknowledge the ways in which the things in the analogy are dissimilar, so they they can dismiss the ways in which they are similar.
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
Yeah, people are horrible at rational argument. Fallacies everywhere. Total ignorance of basic definitions. But that's society broadly, not just people who argue on the internet.

The level of general ignorance combined with most people's reflexive rejection of challenges to their worldview make debates exhausting and largely pointless. Very few people sincerely care about facts that don't suit their feelings or beliefs.

It's understandable. An examined life takes enormous mental energy. Humans aren't really built to maintain rigorous standards of logical consistency and rational muster. We rely on a lot of heuristics just to get through our day.
 
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OP
OP
Sinneslöschen
Oct 27, 2017
1,332
Yeah, people are horrible at rational argument. Fallacies everywhere. Total ignorance of basic definitions. But that's society broadly, not just people who argue on the internet.

To add to this, people who are aware of common logical fallacies, like to throw them around as a way to win an argument, even when the fallacy is not actually present.

Ad hominem! No true scotsman!

Of course these fallacies are commonly found in many threads, but people should be careful to use them when appropriate, and not as a gotcha.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
Being pedantic as shit has become a go-to part of people's rhetorical playbook.
 

btags

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,087
Gaithersburg MD
To add to this, people who are aware of common logical fallacies, like to throw them around as a way to win an argument, even when the fallacy is not actually present.

Ad hominem! No true scotsman!

Of course these fallacies are commonly found in many threads, but people should be careful to use them when appropriate, and not as a gotcha.
I would agree with this. The number of times people say ad hominem when they themselves use it or the argument is not ad hominem is really annoying.
 

VegiHam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,591
Oh man, I totally get you OP. This happens in threads all the time, like:

Person A: The way that thing X interacts with thing Y is a lot like the way thing W interacts with thing Z
Person B: Um holy shit did you just compare X to W?! Wow you're such a troll, you aren't arguing in good faith, that's whataboutism. W is actually really bad and killed my family and it's wrong of you to use it as a comparison just because you're an X hater.

It gets tiresome to read.
 

Deleted member 14002

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,121
This is something I see happen far too often on this forum. Someone makes an analogy to make a point, and then are attacked with posts like:

"Wait, you think X is the same as Y ?????"

"Wow, saying X is the same as Y is very offensive dude."

"Nice false equivalence you got there."

Except, no-one was saying X is equal to Y, they were drawing a comparison in the form of an analogy. An analogy is not supposed to be exactly the same as the analogous example provided, otherwise there would be no need to make an analogy. The point of an analogy is to use the areas in which the two situations or things are similar in certain respects, those respects key to the argument being made, in order to help people understand. The two things may be vastly different in other respects, or especially degree.

Degree is a big one, because often someone will make an analogy to a much more serious example. Often the serious or extreme example being used is something that people have a very clear cut moral view on. Using this example can help present the point you are trying to make, without claiming that the two situations are equal in terms of severity or impact.

Usually this happens with analogies made to subjects with a strong emotional impact such as: Nazis, the Holocaust, Hitler, Slavery, Rape, Abortion, etc.. When making an analogy to one of these subjects it is going to be very rare to actually be discussing something of equal severity. A person making an analogy to these is not making an equivalence, but may be drawing a comparison to similar aspects but in a much lesser degree.

This does not mean that all analogies are good though. Absolutely there are bad analogies, where the comparison just doesn't work and the two situations are not at all similar. But don't get caught up in pointing out unrelated, tangential details between the two things being compared. And don't get so caught up in the degree of severity between the two things. Point out bad analogies because they don't work.

I think if you respond to an analogy by accusing someone of making an equivalence you are de facto arguing in bad faith. You can claim in analogy is bad, doesn't work, or is in bad taste, but accusing someone of making an equivalence is not fair or accurate.

In accordance with that though, perhaps avoid analogies that you know are going to send people into an emotional tizzy. Don't always jump straight to Hitler or slavery for your analogy. Even if it does work in the limited scope you are intending, it may have the unintended effect of making people angry.

A very well thought out post.

It's very likely most of the people you are trying to educate will not read your post in its entirety.
 

MilkBeard

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,780
This is a big problem in internet debates, or arguments in general. Someone will make an analogy to point out some similarities, but the other person will always completely ignore said similarity and only comment on what is not similar, thereby completely throwing out the analogy (and missing the point).
 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,647
To be fair, if you have to compare something of relatively banal severity to something like the holocaust, you're probably not making a great argument to begin with.

I agree that people responding should probably just ignore the weird hyperbole and argue to the point of what they're saying. But let's not deny that the hyperbole can be intentionally inflammatory and intended to rile, rather than actually making a great point.

Either way, I need some solid examples in this thread.
 

Proteus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,984
Toronto
Yeah, people are horrible at rational argument. Fallacies everywhere. Total ignorance of basic definitions. But that's society broadly, not just people who argue on the internet.

The level of general ignorance combined with most people's reflexive rejection of challenges to their worldview make debates exhausting and largely pointless. Very few people sincerely care about facts that don't suit their feelings or beliefs.

It's understandable. An examined life takes enormous mental energy. Humans aren't really built to maintain rigorous standards of logical consistency and rational muster. We rely on a lot of heuristics just to get through our day.

This post is so incredibly spot on. I wish I could articulate my thoughts on discourse and argument on the Internet, and in life, this well.

Good job.
 

Chopchop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,171
Oh man, I totally get you OP. This happens in threads all the time, like:

Person A: The way that thing X interacts with thing Y is a lot like the way thing W interacts with thing Z
Person B: Um holy shit did you just compare X to W?! Wow you're such a troll, you aren't arguing in good faith, that's whataboutism. W is actually really bad and killed my family and it's wrong of you to use it as a comparison just because you're an X hater.

It gets tiresome to read.
Yeah, it happens a lot. People jump straight to the "fuck your both sides" thing as soon as they get the slightest chance to do so.

Because of this, a lot of threads become less about discussion and more about fishing for people to agree with the OP. Anyone who even slightly disagrees or tries to discuss a related issue gets jumped.
 
OP
OP
Sinneslöschen
Oct 27, 2017
1,332
To be fair, if you have to compare something of relatively banal severity to something like the holocaust, you're probably not making a great argument to begin with.

True, and I touch on that in the last sentence of the OP. If you are thinking about making an analogy to Hilter or the holocaust, you should probably stop and think for a minute if there is a better choice.
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,108
Austria
To be fair, if you have to compare something of relatively banal severity to something like the holocaust, you're probably not making a great argument to begin with.
The quality of the analogy is of course a whole different can of worms. Some analogies are bad just like sexism and can be criticized a whole lot.
But OP is still right in that valid analogies are sometimes dismissed with pretty dodgy reasoning.
 

Proteus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,984
Toronto
Yeah, it happens a lot. People jump straight to the "fuck your both sides" thing as soon as they get the slightest chance to do so.

Because of this, a lot of threads become less about discussion and more about fishing for people to agree with the OP. Anyone who even slightly disagrees or tries to discuss a related issue gets jumped.

The both sides dismissal is something I see a lot. There are definitely situations when trying to weigh both sides of a debate falls into a balance fallacy argument. However, there are plenty of times when looking at different sides of an argument to get a clearer understanding is completely acceptable. There are fundamental truths that weighing both sides makes no sense. I am not going to attempt to weigh the pros and cons of racism for example. We as a society have done that over centuries and the effects can be seen throughout history.

I would like to see a lot of the catchphrase/twitter argument styles go away. "Whataboutism", "both sides", "you aren't arguing in good faith" and others are lazy. You may be correct that the other person's argument has flaws but instead of throwing out some clever term it would be much better handled by deconstructing your opponents argument with a logical rebuttal.
 

MIMIC

Member
Dec 18, 2017
8,332
You must visit some pretty classy forums... unless you are talking about places that don't even address arguments and just insult you right from the start, avoiding the specific problem mentioned in this thread.

Not really; I just mean people understood what an analogy was and what is being compared (and what isn't). I just found that here, more often than not, people spend more time trying to pick apart an analogy rather than accept the comparison,

It's entertaining to follow an argument, see someone make an analogy and predict what the response will be.
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,108
Austria
The both sides dismissal is something I see a lot. There are definitely situations when trying to weigh both sides of a debate falls into a balance fallacy argument. However, there are plenty of times when looking at different sides of an argument to get a clearer understanding is completely acceptable. There are fundamental truths that weighing both sides makes no sense. I am not going to attempt to weigh the pros and cons of racism for example. We as a society have done that over centuries and the effects can be seen throughout history.

I would like to see a lot of the catchphrase/twitter argument styles go away. "Whataboutism", "both sides", "you aren't arguing in good faith" and others are lazy. You may be correct that the other person's argument has flaws but instead of throwing out some clever term it would be much better handled by deconstructing your opponents argument with a logical rebuttal.
Well, whataboutism is a real thing though. Too real and frequent IMO.
Especially when the thread is about country X is doing something bad. Someone usually comes along with a defense that amounts to "but country Y is worse/the same". This usually doesn't add to the discussion at all, as the thing in country X is still happening, and being terrible.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,326
New York
It's not that they're the same. But many analogies are shitty and aren't valid. I most often feel this way when someone tries to compare shit to the oppression of Black people in America.

"Oh that's just like being bred and sold as chattel" ...no, actually it's not. Stop it.
 

Proteus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,984
Toronto
Well, whataboutism is a real thing though. Too real and frequent IMO.
Especially when the thread is about country X is doing something bad. Someone usually comes along with a defense that amounts to "but country Y is worse/the same". This usually doesn't add to the discussion at all, as the thing in country X is still happening, and being terrible.
I am not saying it isn't real it's just that replying with the actual term "whataboutism" is lazy. Break down why their argument doesn't work. If you can't then maybe their argument is stronger than you realised.

I just hate the decline of argument over the past several years. Well, not necessarily a decline, more like it was always like this but now we are exposed to it through social media.
 

machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,818
Well, whataboutism is a real thing though. Too real and frequent IMO.
Especially when the thread is about country X is doing something bad. Someone usually comes along with a defense that amounts to "but country Y is worse/the same". This usually doesn't add to the discussion at all, as the thing in country X is still happening, and being terrible.

Whataboutism does occur but I see accusations of it thrown around with a lot more frequency than actual instances of it. A few days ago in another thread I saw someone accusing people of using whataboutism and strawman arguments when neither was actually being done. Some people seem to disingenuously use those terms in an attempt to shut down conversation that's not going the way they like.
 

moblin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,107
Москва
Not really; I just mean people understood what an analogy was and what is being compared (and what isn't). I just found that here, more often than not, people spend more time trying to pick apart an analogy rather than accept the comparison,

It's entertaining to follow an argument, see someone make an analogy and predict what the response will be.
I agree, but honestly here (and previously on GAF) it's more that it's a select few 80+ posts-per-day posters on particular subjects than a forum-wide thing. It's less entertaining than it is exhausting to enter a thread on an interesting topic, watch someone make a simple (or ill-conceived) comparison in genuine good faith, and have the thread spiral into a content-less black hole of meta/fallacy talk. In an ideal world this is what moderation would be designed to prevent, as the ignore function doesn't quite have the necessary tact.
 

Proteus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,984
Toronto
I agree, but honestly here (and previously on GAF) it's more that it's a select few 80+ posts-per-day posters on particular subjects than a forum-wide thing. It's less entertaining than it is exhausting to enter a thread on an interesting topic, watch someone make a simple (or ill-conceived) comparison in genuine good faith, and have the thread spiral into a content-less black hole of meta/fallacy talk. In an ideal world this is what moderation would be designed to prevent, as the ignore function doesn't quite have the necessary tact.

I have seen moderation at least attempt to handle situations like that on here. Less so on GAF.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,250
Analogies seem to work better IRL conversations I find. It usually just ends up derailing the thread. Hell I've been banned for bringing up an analogy someone didn't like, I just try and avoid it. People tend to just point out all the differences while ignoring the point.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
This definitely happens a lot, but people are often prone to extremely hyperbolic analogies that don't really serve their point and rather distract from it.
 

itwasTuesday

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
8,078
Yes, even when my analogies are the absolute best analogies in the entire world. Sometimes posters just don't understand.

Analyzing humor is like dissecting a frog. Few people are interested and the frog dies of it.
- E.B. White

What that means is when you cut up a frog its guts splatter all over (even on the ceiling) and you appear foolish, and nobody wants to look a fool.
 

mentallyinept

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,403
People are sick of hearing arguments based on minimization, what-about-isms, and non-sequiturs and it has made them very sensitive to the tactics used to deploy them.

This is especially true of issues surrounding race and gender relations, criminal justice, climate change, and other political fuckery.

When dealing with sensitive subjects such as the above, it's better to use direct, clear, concise language that leaves no room for mis-interpretation.

It is far too easy for someone to read an analogy that, while apt in making a surface level comparison between two (such as the puddle and ocean comparison in the comic linked above by Phrozenflame500), dismisses the history, nuance, and real-life consequences of the subject actually being discussed.

More often than not these analogies\metaphors contribute nothing to the actual conversation other than over-simplifying complex subjects for the purposes of regurgitating a sound-bite that makes them feel better about their own positions.

I realize that I'm talking mostly from a socio-political perspective here, but it is where I have seen this blow up the most.
 

Carfo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,857
yea I like this thing I found on 9gag

abMqgmv_700b.jpg
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,733
An analogy is a (qualified) equivalence. If you don't want to equate two things in some way, don't claim that they're analogous. If people are categorically misinterpreting your analogies, then probably you are not qualifying them correctly and you are leading people to make equivalencies that you did not intend but did not specifically disclaim against.

All of the people who took a course in logic in high school coming in here throwing around the word "fallacy" like it's going out of style should take a good, hard look inwards. Yes, there's a lot of bad arguments being thrown around, but the best way to elevate the quality of the discourse is to scrutinize yourself, not others.

I have seen people go ballistic over using Racism as an analogy when talking about Homophobia, it's exactly as those stock phrases OP uses.
Analogizing racism and homophobia without serious qualification is almost always really stupid because the two cases are both not equivalent and not analogous in most ways. People who make such lazy and misinformed analogies deserve to be criticized for it.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
An analogy is a (qualified) equivalence. If you don't want to equate two things in some way, don't claim that they're analogous. If people are categorically misinterpreting your analogies, then probably you are not qualifying them correctly and you are leading people to make equivalencies that you did not intend but did not specifically disclaim against.

All of the people who took a course in logic in high school coming in here throwing around the word "fallacy" like it's going out of style should take a good, hard look inwards. Yes, there's a lot of bad arguments being thrown around, but the best way to elevate the quality of the discourse is to scrutinize yourself, not others.


Analogizing racism and homophobia without serious qualification is almost always really stupid because the two cases are both not equivalent and not analogous in most ways. People who make such lazy and misinformed analogies deserve to be criticized for it.

Huh? Comparisons not explicitly made in an analogy, or comparisons irrelevant to the context in which the analogy is used, are implicitly disclaimed. Explicitly disclaiming every possible comparison is entirely impossible and unnecessary.
 

Tuck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,583
I do see this a lot, especially with politics. At risk of possibly derailing this thread by bringing politics, it's very frequent. Something like "This is dumb! Democrats are doing the same thing we criticize Republicans for!" is sometimes met with these angry reactions as if the person had said "Democrats are the same as Republicans!"

This specific example happens a lot.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,705
The problem is that sometimes people draw conclusions based on the context of the analogy that do not hold for the actual subject matter - they shift the frame to a simplified analogous context, prove their point there often using mechanisms exclusive to that context, and then shift immediately back to the original subject matter and act as though their point has been proven in that case too. It's a problem of loss of precision during the initial translation, and people getting confused by the switching between two different contexts and accepting conclusions that don't hold in the context of the original subject matter but do for the analogous situation. This is especially a problem when making analogies between psychological processes and the physical world, or between any two separate "domains".

You cannot draw conclusions exclusively from analogies, they are purely descriptive. They can be very useful descriptors, and are often beautiful modes of expression. But sometimes people abuse them, and that should be called out not as a "fallacy", but by directly pointing to the underlying mechanics. Because the "fallacy fallacy" of calling out fallacies without justifying why is indeed itself a fallacy.