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Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,474
You forgot Marie Rose, Honoka, and Nyotengu (pre-order bonus in her case) for DoA6. Phase-4 is a DLC bonus for the digital deluxe edition. In regards to leaked DLC for BBTAG, it's already known that Senran Kagura will be the fifth franchise Arc hinted at, with Asuka and Yumi being its representatives.
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,278
Houston, TX
You forgot Marie Rose, Honoka, and Nyotengu (pre-order bonus in her case) for DoA6. Phase-4 is a DLC bonus for the digital deluxe edition. In regards to leaked DLC for BBTAG, it's already known that Senran Kagura will be the fifth franchise Arc hinted at, with Asuka and Yumi being its representatives.
I've since made those corrections. Thanks for letting me know.
 

saladdays

Member
Sep 11, 2018
552
Hey, I don't know if it's been brought up before, but maybe use Kirby's canonical pronouns. In their country of origin, Kirby is canonically completely genderless, so I do not think they should be counted as a male or female. It would be pretty cool to count Kirby as a non-binary rep.
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,278
Houston, TX
I've updated Smash Ultimate & Soul Calibur VI's percentages. If I fucked up somewhere, please let me know.
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,278
Houston, TX
I've updated the thread to include Tekken 7 & SNK Heroines' updated percentages.
 
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Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,017
So Anime fighters tend to have more female characters (as expected), the more mainstream game consistently hover around the 30-40% mark
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,278
Houston, TX
So Anime fighters tend to have more female characters (as expected), the more mainstream game consistently hover around the 30-40% mark
I'd honestly say that the low 20's to mid 30's is around the average for the more mainstream fighting games. I only see two so far that's above that threshold, those being ARMS & DoA5 (I guess you could consider DoA more mainstream, though DoA6 isn't far enough along on its roster to where I can make it part of the ranking).
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,278
Houston, TX
Granblue Fantasy Versus has been added to the list, but I won't include it in the ranking until more of its roster is revealed. As for Mortal Kombat 11, I'll add it to the list once we get the gameplay reveal in January.
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
I'm still annoyed female Corrin isn't the default Corrin in Ultimate. Warriors did it right.
 

HotHamBoy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,423
Good writeup, but please use women instead of females.
If the article had been about the reverse would you object to the use of "male" over "men?" I don't think OP is trying to be sexist and demeaning, pretty sure that's just common formal terminology.

If anything, female is a more considerate term when one considers its etymology when compared to woman's.

https://medium.com/interesting-histories/interesting-histories-female-male-woman-man-fd8f436a554c
Female has its origin in Latin and comes from the Latin word "femella", or "femina", which of course means "woman". Male, on the other hand, come from Old French "masle", or as we know it in modern French "mâle", that itself comes from the Latin word "masculus", both of which mean "male human". Over time "masle" became Male and, around 14th century, after a long use side by side with Male, "femella" morphed into Female, bringing both words in line with the modern usage. There is no prefix Fe in the word Female, Female stands on its own, and only after centuries of misspelling did the words Female and Male acquire their similarities.

Woman and Man are little bit trickier than Male and Female. Man obviously is the root, but the problem is that the word Man used to mean "person" or "someone", and was gender neutral. You could call anybody a man as long as they were human. Man is derived from Old English "mann", or the earlier Proto-Indo-European word "mon" (or "man"). So when you joke that in the good old days men were men, women were men, and children were men, you are kind of correct. In Old English the word for Man (male) was "wer" or "wǣpmann", but it disappeared around 13th century and the word "man" took over, although it still could be used in gender neutral sense and did so all the way to the twentieth century. Old English word for woman was "wif" or "wīfmann". "Wif" obviously turned into modern "wife" and "wīfmann" became the modern word "woman". So you can say that Man and Woman have the same root, Man, although it means a human or a person rather than a male
 

Evon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
180
Austria
If the article had been about the reverse would you object to the use of "male" over "men?" I don't think OP is trying to be sexist and demeaning, pretty sure that's just common formal terminology.

If anything, female is a more considerate term when one considers its etymology when compared to woman's.

https://medium.com/interesting-histories/interesting-histories-female-male-woman-man-fd8f436a554c

Not sure why you are replying to me specifically more than a year later and what you are trying to achieve with your post, but yes, the use of both male and female as nouns for humans sounds weird to me. The etymology of the words is irrelevant to me, since their modern-day usage is deemed demeaning by many people. That was enough of a reason for me to make that comment back then.
 

Tribal_Cult

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,548
Smash Ultimate ranks a lot higher if you put in perspective that many characters have a female variant, a lot of them are not gendered (basically all the Pokémon, Yoshi, R.O.B., technically Dark Samus too). I think with 4 Sakurai started doing a good job regarding this, even if I find the issue kind of overblown. It's one thing when a roster based on original characters doesn't give a good chunk of representation for everyone, but when Smash has to be based on pre-existing characters, the risk is to force it and add characters just because they're a woman even if they're not that relevant. Take Daisy for example, yes, she adds diversity, but there are many Mario characters which deserved the spot before her imho (of course she's in because she was an easy copy & paste of Peach, but still). Gendered options are a great way to solve this, if it needs to be solved at all. You take a game like Dead or Alive, sure it has a lot of women, but how are they represented? That could open a can of worms as well.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Smash Ultimate ranks a lot higher if you put in perspective that many characters have a female variant, a lot of them are not gendered (basically all the Pokémon, Yoshi, R.O.B., technically Dark Samus too). I think with 4 Sakurai started doing a good job regarding this, even if I find the issue kind of overblown. It's one thing when a roster based on original characters doesn't give a good chunk of representation for everyone, but when Smash has to be based on pre-existing characters, the risk is to force it and add characters just because they're a woman even if they're not that relevant. Take Daisy for example, yes, she adds diversity, but there are many Mario characters which deserved the spot before her imho (of course she's in because she was an easy copy & paste of Peach, but still). Gendered options are a great way to solve this, if it needs to be solved at all. You take a game like Dead or Alive, sure it has a lot of women, but how are they represented? That could open a can of worms as well.
Smash could still be better honestly. First off the only character with woman alts where the woman is the default is Wii Fit Trainer.

Not even Corrin who's female version is vastly more popular then the male.

OP probably doesn't count them because that renders them "less important" and means they get a lot less advertising based on them.

There also plenty of female fighters they could add who wouldn't be added "just because there women."

Elma
Ashley
Midna
Celica
Susie/Ribbon/Adeleine
Fiora
Kumatora
Krystal
Twintelle/Ribbon Girl
Dixie Kong

I also question relevancy when we just got K. Rool who hasn't been relevant in like a decade. Or getting more niche characters like Bayonetta and Joker who lean towards the more hard core crowd.
 

Tribal_Cult

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,548
Smash could still be better honestly. First off the only character with woman alts where the woman is the default is Wii Fit Trainer.

Not even Corrin who's female version is vastly more popular then the male.

OP probably doesn't count them because that renders them "less important" and means they get a lot less advertising based on them.

There also plenty of female fighters they could add who wouldn't be added "just because there women."

Elma
Ashley
Midna
Celica
Susie/Ribbon/Adeleine
Fiora
Kumatora
Krystal
Twintelle/Ribbon Girl
Dixie Kong

I also question relevancy when we just got K. Rool who hasn't been relevant in like a decade. Or getting more niche characters like Bayonetta and Joker who lean towards the more hard core crowd.

Dixie Kong is the only baffling omission of Ultimate imho, she totally deserved to be in before K. Rool. It's a mixture of relevancy and fan demand, in which the second totally beat her by a landslide. Other than her, maybe Elma, Ashley and Midna could be defined as "very deserving". You talk about relevancy and bring up Kumatora and Krystal.
Those are all important and deserving female characters from Nintendo, I agree. That said, I wouldn't put anyone of them before Simon Belmont for example.
It's hard to compare Smash Bros. to other fighting games for this reason. It's a fact that many legacy characters in the history of videogames are indeed men. It's just the way it is.
 

PCPace

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,841
Alabama
"characters with alts of the opposite gender are only counted if they're female by default & aren't the secondary character of a duo, so no Robin, Villager, Pokémon Trainer, Pikachu, Corrin, Wendy, Pichu, or Ice Climbers)"

That seems like a rather arbitrary rule, except in the case of Wendy who is just one of eight choices. Everyone uses alt colors, those characters in particular are whichever gender you want.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Inkling is female by default too.
Ah crap forgot them. Thanks.
Dixie Kong is the only baffling omission of Ultimate imho, she totally deserved to be in before K. Rool. It's a mixture of relevancy and fan demand, in which the second totally beat her by a landslide. Other than her, maybe Elma, Ashley and Midna could be defined as "very deserving". You talk about relevancy and bring up Kumatora and Krystal.
Those are all important and deserving female characters from Nintendo, I agree. That said, I wouldn't put anyone of them before Simon Belmont for example.
It's hard to compare Smash Bros. to other fighting games for this reason. It's a fact that many legacy characters in the history of videogames are indeed men. It's just the way it is.

I brought up relevancy because I don't think it's as important as some people like to make it be.

Also I fully agknowledge it's subjective but I'd trade Midna for Simon in a heartbeat.(now Richter we might have a discussion.)
"characters with alts of the opposite gender are only counted if they're female by default & aren't the secondary character of a duo, so no Robin, Villager, Pokémon Trainer, Pikachu, Corrin, Wendy, Pichu, or Ice Climbers)"

That seems like a rather arbitrary rule, except in the case of Wendy who is just one of eight choices. Everyone uses alt colors, those characters in particular are whichever gender you want.
Who gets to be on all the advertisements and pictures Wendy or Bowser Jr.?

What about Villager or Robin?
 

memoryman3

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,146
Ah crap forgot them. Thanks.


I brought up relevancy because I don't think it's as important as some people like to make it be.

Also I fully agknowledge it's subjective but I'd trade Midna for Simon in a heartbeat.(now Richter we might have a discussion.)

Who gets to be on all the advertisements and pictures Wendy or Bowser Jr.?

What about Villager or Robin?

Villager and Robin still highlight that the avatar has multiple options. In fact Female Villager shows up a lot, and the game even recognises if you scan a male Inkling amiibo and makes that the default choice.
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,278
Houston, TX
I'm still annoyed female Corrin isn't the default Corrin in Ultimate. Warriors did it right.
As mentioned before, Female Corrin not being the default honestly seems like Sakurai didn't get the memo in time, especially considering how soon Ultimate's development started after Corrin & Bayonetta were released for Smash Wii U/3DS.

Smash could still be better honestly. First off the only character with woman alts where the woman is the default is Wii Fit Trainer.

Not even Corrin who's female version is vastly more popular then the male.

OP probably doesn't count them because that renders them "less important" and means they get a lot less advertising based on them.

There also plenty of female fighters they could add who wouldn't be added "just because there women."

Elma
Ashley
Midna
Celica
Susie/Ribbon/Adeleine
Fiora
Kumatora
Krystal
Twintelle/Ribbon Girl
Dixie Kong

I also question relevancy when we just got K. Rool who hasn't been relevant in like a decade. Or getting more niche characters like Bayonetta and Joker who lean towards the more hard core crowd.
Unfortunately, most of the characters you mentioned, while being solid choices, have one problem or another (wouldn't sell well as DLC, already an Assist Trophy, side characters from a franchise whose main character got sidelined, etc.). Dixie Kong may be the only one on that list with a legitimate shot at getting in, but she almost seems too safe of a pick for the Fighters Pass.

"characters with alts of the opposite gender are only counted if they're female by default & aren't the secondary character of a duo, so no Robin, Villager, Pokémon Trainer, Pikachu, Corrin, Wendy, Pichu, or Ice Climbers)"

That seems like a rather arbitrary rule, except in the case of Wendy who is just one of eight choices. Everyone uses alt colors, those characters in particular are whichever gender you want.
While I do have a separate percentage with the alternate costumes counted, I don't include it in the ranking to be fair to the other games. That plus, with the exception of Female Corrin (who is listed as "Player 2" for her Amiibo, alongside Bayo 1 Bayonetta & Advent Children Cloud), most of the other non-default gender variants don't get much marketing exposure.
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
Smash could still be better honestly. First off the only character with woman alts where the woman is the default is Wii Fit Trainer.

Not even Corrin who's female version is vastly more popular then the male.
Now that you mention it, there is only one default female Fire Emblem character in Smash and that's Lucina, which is an echo of Marth. It is disappointing for sure the lack of women from the Fire Emblem franchise. Instead of adding Chrom as an echo, they could have added Lyn or Celica.
In fact, Lyn defeated Lucina in that Fire Emblem Heroes Choose your Legends poll.
 

Fosko

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,955
I wouldn't really count monster/pokemon/animal fighters in this kind of analysis
 

Choppasmith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,410
Beaumont, CA
Yeah, on one hand I don't see why female alts aren't any less important to the roster (aside from maybe Nana or female Villager really being her own character). Choice is everything. But yeah, I can see where Neoxon is coming from. There SHOULD be more women that stand on their own and are marketed as such.

Speaking of which, if that DQ rumor is true (knocking on wood and crossing my fingers), Erdrick will really stand out as having 4 characters in one, two being women, it'll be interesting to see how they do that in regards to marketing and possible Amiibo.
 

HotHamBoy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,423
Not sure why you are replying to me specifically more than a year later and what you are trying to achieve with your post, but yes, the use of both male and female as nouns for humans sounds weird to me. The etymology of the words is irrelevant to me, since their modern-day usage is deemed demeaning by many people. That was enough of a reason for me to make that comment back then.
Forgive me, i did not realize the ageof the thread
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,278
Houston, TX
Forgive me, i did not realize the ageof the thread
Yeah, I've been updating this thread for over a year now. It was a mistake on my part for what you discussed that was since corrected.

Also, I've updated SFV's percentage. While said percentage did go down, it didn't decrease in rank.
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
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Oct 25, 2017
85,278
Houston, TX
I've updated DBFZ & added Mortal Kombat 11. I know it's been a while since I've updated this thread, so let me know if I missed anything since then.
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,278
Houston, TX
I've updated Dragon Ball FighterZ percentage to include the recent reveals.
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,278
Houston, TX
I've updated Mortal Kombat 11 & Samurai Shodown's percentages. I've also added Samurai Shodown to the ranking.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,601
Thanks for catching my mistake. I've since added Cetrion to MK11's percentage.

No problem. With her included MK11 already has a higher female fighter selection than MK10 did with DLC included and only 1 off from Injustice 2 (with DLC). If Mileena does make it in then it will have equal with IJ2.

Will be interesting to see if that happens.

Though personally I'd rather see new female fighters. MK11's cast is already mostly returning characters.

Edit: Actually wait we already know Frost is in. So the game already has 9.
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,278
Houston, TX
No problem. With her included MK11 already has a higher female fighter selection than MK10 did with DLC included and only 1 off from Injustice 2 (with DLC). If Mileena does make it in then it will have equal with IJ2.

Will be interesting to see if that happens.

Though personally I'd rather see new female fighters. MK11's cast is already mostly returning characters.

Edit: Actually wait we already know Frost is in. So the game already has 9.
Thank again, I've added Frost to MK11's percentage.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,371
Now that you mention it, there is only one default female Fire Emblem character in Smash and that's Lucina, which is an echo of Marth. It is disappointing for sure the lack of women from the Fire Emblem franchise. Instead of adding Chrom as an echo, they could have added Lyn or Celica.
In fact, Lyn defeated Lucina in that Fire Emblem Heroes Choose your Legends poll.

Chrom already had a model thanks to Robin's Final Smash and apparently was requested due to all the jokes he generated back during Smash 4's marketing.