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Animation’s Whitewashing Problem: ‘Rick and Morty,’ ‘BoJack Horseman,’ Producers On How to fix it
- Thread starter WrenchNinja
- Start date
Yes, I specifically stated by asking if not having a back character at all was the preference to using a white voice/mocap for a black character. Specifically I'm asking if the consensus is that not being seen at all is better than the performance being driven by a white person in an area of acting that abstracts the actor visually from the final product to the degree the creators decide and has always been the case.
I hate this excuse. Pissed me off when it was used for Nadine in Uncharted 4. Yeah, the best person because ND couldn't be bothered to look for the right actress so instead they went with an old, albeit talented standby.
That excuse is up there with both sides.
How is it any different from Andy Serkis's mocap performance, voicework, and model used to create Gollum or Cesar in a live action film, but this time darkened and given kinky hair to play a Black character or slanted eyes to play an East Asian charcter?
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At the very least the wishes of the writer should be considered. This specific case is pretty rediculous to ignore.
Speaking of which, just heard about this film called Blazing Samurai and would you look at the cast:
http://imdb.com/title/tt4428398/
Speaking of which, just heard about this film called Blazing Samurai and would you look at the cast:
http://imdb.com/title/tt4428398/
You're talking about a society of entertainment that defaults to white... Is this an incorrect statement? No
Majority of characters created in entertainment are white characters... Is this an incorrect statement? No
If you're trying to bar PoC voice actors from playing white characters when they are the default as an counter argument, you make no sense...
Because we're arguing that PoC actors need to be able to play more characters of their own race or others rather than having a default white actor take the role when they have countless other opportunities....
If you cant see the problem with PoC actors not being able to take PoC roles and then try to argue against PoC actors doing white roles as a counter then lol, you a mad salty fake ass ally my guy
Majority of characters created in entertainment are white characters... Is this an incorrect statement? No
If you're trying to bar PoC voice actors from playing white characters when they are the default as an counter argument, you make no sense...
Because we're arguing that PoC actors need to be able to play more characters of their own race or others rather than having a default white actor take the role when they have countless other opportunities....
If you cant see the problem with PoC actors not being able to take PoC roles and then try to argue against PoC actors doing white roles as a counter then lol, you a mad salty fake ass ally my guy
Actually on second thought I think I am gonna have to stand by my original post which was
For me as a fan the race or gender of the person doing the voice acting is not even on my list of concerns. I just want the best person for the job to be doing the job. The thing that made me change my mind is that I remembered the Voice Actor for the the character Naruto Uzumaki in the Naruto series who is a guy, but is actually voiced by a woman because she was the best person for the voice. Sometimes the best person for the role doesn't fit the mold of the character themselves, but is able to perfectly voice the character despite that fact.
I do agree that more effort should be done to audition more minority candidates, but the role itself should always go to the person who did the best.
For me as a fan the race or gender of the person doing the voice acting is not even on my list of concerns. I just want the best person for the job to be doing the job. The thing that made me change my mind is that I remembered the Voice Actor for the the character Naruto Uzumaki in the Naruto series who is a guy, but is actually voiced by a woman because she was the best person for the voice. Sometimes the best person for the role doesn't fit the mold of the character themselves, but is able to perfectly voice the character despite that fact.
I do agree that more effort should be done to audition more minority candidates, but the role itself should always go to the person who did the best.
Mad respect to Jessica Gao for keeping up the uphill battle of dismantling the toxic environment over at R&M. Raphael Bob-Waksberg is still the smartest voice in the animation industry. Major cringe at literally everybody else. Like, Kevin Michael Richardson is 100% used for stereotypical strong black man roles on The Simpsons these days so it's a ridiculously laughable defense.
While true, I dont even trust that this is the case. They hire who is famous: white. Or who they think is acceptable to the public: white.
I'm not understanding the core of the question. If the core of the question is, "Should Andy Serkis not be allowed to mocap a Gollum-like character who was black or Asian" then it should be clear the answer is no, if he was the best he should be eligible to do it without his work being discarded or condemned because he isn't black or Asian.
If you're saying recoloring Gollum in the context of the Hobbit/LoTR specifically, that takes with it the context of being both the only deformed hobbit and the only hobbit of color. It's clear how that combination would be an issue.
I haven't seen his Cesar.
Would people extend this sentiment to English anime dubs? The characters are designed of Japanese ethnicity (and often location) and despite them originally having the ethnic accurate casting, the dubs often still have majority American voices.
Then there could be the concern of if Asian-American voice actors dominated dubs there could be calls of stereotyping and pigeon-holes for those actors/actresses.
Then there could be the concern of if Asian-American voice actors dominated dubs there could be calls of stereotyping and pigeon-holes for those actors/actresses.
OMG. LOL. I guess I can see i didn't word it clearly.
Is there a difference between Andy Serkis mocap, voicework, and model to create a Black character in a live action film and Laura Bailey doing the same for a videogame?
Gollum and Caesar are a fictional creature and a semi-anthropologic animal.
Black and Asian people are you know, real people. That's not a good comparison to make really, they're incompatible.
Except the vast majority of people don't care who voices the character. They just want the voice to work with the content and fit the character. There is only a couple dozen of American Voice Actors who are instantly recognizable to the average customer in my opinion. Diehard fans will of course recognize more.
But I disagree with this "They hire white people because thats what the public wants" stance you have because I don't think the public cares what race or gender they are. They just want a quality product. I have never heard of anyone saying "Oh wait! My favorite character is voiced by a *Insert race here*? Never watching the show again!"
But like I said studios should make a more of an effort to give auditions to minorities, but the job should always go to the best person in my opinion instead of the person who best matches the way the character looks. Like I said in my Naruto example I feel like we should be hiring on the basis of vocally matching the character rather than matching them by physical characteristics.
Whitewashing in live action is a different story for me though. That shit is absolutely ridiculous.
Then you see the problem with Nadine?
What is this hypothetical concern that giving more opportunities to POC would mean they wouldn' hire the best person for the job? Do you get the implication you're saying?
No. I don't see a problem with Andy Serkis voicing a black character so why would I have an issue with Nadine?
You yourself kind of made that implication by rejecting the idea of egalitarian hiring practices in the second post. The post implied that some issues being conflated here are the assumption that because whites are the go to actors and actresses that they are equally the best and that a quality only approach will inherently continue to prefer them.
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Ugh.
Yes, clearly they hired Hollywood actors for talent and not because they were recognizable.
This is the equivalent of white people whining about affirmative action because they think some POC "stole" their opportunities
No I have no concern that it would lead to that. I am just saying they should offer more auditions to minorities of course, but if in the end the voice that best fits the character belongs to someone who is a different race or gender than the character then that should be fine fine. The best person for the job got the part. I don't wanna see studios pressured into giving the part to someone else just because their physical characteristics match up with the character more.
Basically what I am saying is that in my opinion when you are trying to find a voice for a character you should be considering a persons VOICE not their physical appearance.
It's not just voicing a character. It's digital Blackface. It's why Hollyood knows better than to do that to create a Black character.
All of the people there ARE talented? I don't understand what you are trying to say.
So because I think voice actors should be judged by their voices and not their physical appearances that makes me comparable to a racist? Seriously?
But it's not blackface. Digital or otherwise. Unless you're skirting around saying that voice acting should always be race matched. In which case no, we don't and won't agree.
In addition to that I'm not a fan of having the available work for minority actors being relegated to the whims of those who to this day only create a small number of minority characters.
But shouldn't that then swing you to wanting a native South African for the role instead of an American for the job? Since surely they'll have the best voice and accent for that particular character?
This problem does not exist yet you've invented it to suggest that somehow the standards may get lowered when that has never been the case with casting appropriate to increase diversity.
If thats the case then of course! I am by no means saying that they shouldn't get the part if thats the case.
I am just saying that voice actors should be judged off their voice. Physical appearance shouldn't be a factor. Like I said in my Naruto example the best person for the job of voicing a young boy was a middle aged woman, but she was the best person for the job. Thats all I want as a fan.
MOCAP PERFORMANCE AND DIGITALLY BLACKING UP THE WHITE MODEL. How is it any different from performing in blackface makeup besides technology?
People keep throwing out the same two actors and roles; Phil Lamar as Samurai Jack, and James Earl Jones as the voice of Darth Vader, as if that doesn't illustrate the problem even better. I can rattle off hundreds of characters voiced by numerous white actors and actresses from Tara Strong to Nolan North to Troy Baker to Rob Paulson, to Maurice Lamarche to Grey Delise to...
The list of non-minority voice actors is a mile long. The list of minority voice actors that can regularly get gigs is woefully short. That's kind of the point. I'm glad that Phil and Kevin and Jones and Cree are getting work, but there a lot of talented minority performers that are constantly having roles that would more than likely come from a more authentic place being given to white performers because the white performers have history with the studio. I get it, nepotism is a major thing in the entertainment industry, but it's also made it feel isolated, unwelcoming, and inaccessible if you happen to be unfortunate enough to not be born with a skin color that has your family bumping elbows with producers and show runners and developers.
But minorities are supposed to just be ok with non-minority creators pillaging our culture for entertainment value while marginalizing its people. It's frustrating. A few success stories of people of color breaking through and getting roles doesn't somehow refute that, at its core, Hollywood is xenophobic. It doesn't refute that even when stories are about us, they aren't actually about us, if you feel me. We'd be lucky to get asked for consultation, let alone actually starring in the story.
For an industry that revolves around making stars and household names, they certainly don't put the same push behind a Lupita N'Yongo that they do a Jennifer Lawrence. I mean, shit, it took Ryan Coogler to give us a movie where Lupita wasn't hidden behind CGI.
I long for a day when diverse characters are played by diverse performers. When diversity isn't considered an afterthought that requires some massaging and mental gymnastics to get it to work. I wasn't even mad at Naughty Dog about the Nadine thing, because I understand how game development is constantly evolving, but that doesn't mean that I'm happy about them not wanting to upset their dear friend Laura Bailey, who they create roles for. And that's the kicker; creators create roles for a Laura Bailey, or a Troy Baker, or a Nolan North. They write the characters with those performers in mind. Nadine was going to be another vehicle for Laura Bailey, not a role they wrote and cast Laura for because she had the best audition. No one is creating roles for performers of color. They're lucky if they get a call back, let alone having an actual writer create a piece for them to play.
That's what makes the Rick and Morty story so sad to me. Even when we have someone on the inside, it's not enough.
The list of non-minority voice actors is a mile long. The list of minority voice actors that can regularly get gigs is woefully short. That's kind of the point. I'm glad that Phil and Kevin and Jones and Cree are getting work, but there a lot of talented minority performers that are constantly having roles that would more than likely come from a more authentic place being given to white performers because the white performers have history with the studio. I get it, nepotism is a major thing in the entertainment industry, but it's also made it feel isolated, unwelcoming, and inaccessible if you happen to be unfortunate enough to not be born with a skin color that has your family bumping elbows with producers and show runners and developers.
But minorities are supposed to just be ok with non-minority creators pillaging our culture for entertainment value while marginalizing its people. It's frustrating. A few success stories of people of color breaking through and getting roles doesn't somehow refute that, at its core, Hollywood is xenophobic. It doesn't refute that even when stories are about us, they aren't actually about us, if you feel me. We'd be lucky to get asked for consultation, let alone actually starring in the story.
For an industry that revolves around making stars and household names, they certainly don't put the same push behind a Lupita N'Yongo that they do a Jennifer Lawrence. I mean, shit, it took Ryan Coogler to give us a movie where Lupita wasn't hidden behind CGI.
I long for a day when diverse characters are played by diverse performers. When diversity isn't considered an afterthought that requires some massaging and mental gymnastics to get it to work. I wasn't even mad at Naughty Dog about the Nadine thing, because I understand how game development is constantly evolving, but that doesn't mean that I'm happy about them not wanting to upset their dear friend Laura Bailey, who they create roles for. And that's the kicker; creators create roles for a Laura Bailey, or a Troy Baker, or a Nolan North. They write the characters with those performers in mind. Nadine was going to be another vehicle for Laura Bailey, not a role they wrote and cast Laura for because she had the best audition. No one is creating roles for performers of color. They're lucky if they get a call back, let alone having an actual writer create a piece for them to play.
That's what makes the Rick and Morty story so sad to me. Even when we have someone on the inside, it's not enough.
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If you actually read what I said you will notice that I said I don't want it to become a problem. Not that the problem already exists.
It's not problem though so quit with the concern trolling because that's all your doing and the suggestion is subtely offensive.
I too would like for the entertainment industry to be a meritocracy but in its current state, judging VAs by their voices alone is an easy way to preserve the overwhelmingly white status quo. Making an effort to give more auditions to POC is a step forward but it's not going to dismantle the institution in which every POC has the cards stacked against them.
The fact that this isn't a live action performance.
The fact that as a result this is literally NOT putting makeup on a white person to make them black
The fact that animation has always broadened acting options.
The fact that a 3D model has no inherent color save that which is made for it, making the claim of blacking it up inherently fallacious.
The fact that Nadine isn't derived of a practice designed to mock minorities but the application of tech to create compelling characters.
The fact that mocap doesn't have specific racial distinguishers.
In the short term nothing inherently will other than mandates that certain ratios of POC actors be maintained. The acknowledged pools of trained talent are lopsided which doesn't magically self correct overnight just because there is realization of an issue.
I never said it would dismantle it. I am just saying that its a start. I am sure there much better ways to do that, but off the top of my head that was what I came up with. I am on your guys side. I want to see more minorities get into the voice acting business. I want that because it would vastly increase the amount of variety we could see in character personalities and nationalities which would give more creative freedom to writers to creative more inclusive and diverse stories which in turn we as consumers could only benefit from. I am just saying that at the end of the day I want the voice to be the focus not the physical characteristics.
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"Hey they might hire a Black person to play a Black character, but not because he was great but because he's Black and I don't want that and I'm concerned these lowered standards will infect the industry. However i never had this concern before when it was primarily White and a "Meritocracy" and they just hired the best voice actors for these roles no matter the race/ethnicity."
You keep acting like I don't want minority voice actors to get chances or be hired. As I stated in the post I just posted above thats not the case. You keep imagining that I am something I am not just because you don't like my opinion.
I mean that's all well and good but suggesting a meritocracy is just helping to preserve the massive imbalance in VA roles. It also happens to be what people defending whitewashing in animation tend to focus on - "we only hire actors based on their performance," etc.
It sounds like you're suggesting egalitarianism is indistinguishable from the nepotism we currently have.
I can't say I've ever seen true egalitarianism in the entertainment industry so I guess we will find out if that day ever comes
Obviously it's not live action it's a different medium limited by it's graphics but trying to ape Cinema. The combination of mocap, using her model, and voicing the character makes it problematic. Hell, you don't need Black people anymore to play themselves, Isn't technology grand? Y'know damn well if this was a film there'd be backlash unless it was some comedy or satire around it.
Than quit it with the "hire the best person" rhetoric around hiring more minorities. The shit is insulting.