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Announcement: Forum restructuring scheduled for this Sunday night

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Enduin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,771
New York
Perception plays a role in all things, but just because people perceive things one way doesn't make them valid concerns. Way too many posters perceive challenges to their opinions and statements as attacks because they aren't used to people asking for clarification and justification for said beliefs. Especially when those challenging them often have a far stronger grasp and breadth of knowledge on the subject. Far too many people think that opinions and beliefs are sacred and don't need to be backed up with reasoning and facts. Sure having a lot of people push back is intimidating but for a lot of these people the difference between 5 and 50 doesn't really matter. The fact that any number of people are challenging them to explain and justify their beliefs is cause enough to feel attacked.

You're chasing shadows with this notion that any non-liberal or left learning person on this board is mobbed for their beliefs, this is not a real issue the vast majority of the time. What is an issue are posters who refuse to learn from their mistakes and hold a grudge for bans or challenges to their post and constantly complain about it, as well as the large number of uninformed posters who don't know a dog whistle and bad faith argument when they see it and thus still fall into this trap that beliefs and opinions are somehow valid stances all their own at the end of the day. It's due to that ignorance that you see posters talk about how they're afraid to post in a thread for fear of being dog-pilled or banned, but just because they perceive things to be that way doesn't actually make them that way, because that kind of stuff just doesn't happen most of the time.

Again, if you take just the smallest amount of time to think over your post before replying and actually reading through a thread and actually try to understand what it's about and what people are saying you're more than likely going to come out of it just fine.

Ok, well regardless people have been doing so and the staff is aware they are doing so. They could have just locked it at any point. At the very least they are providing users an outlet to vent.
Talk about setting a low bar.
 

Shauni

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,728
Perception plays a role in all things, but just because people perceive things one way doesn't make them valid concerns. Way too many posters perceive challenges to their opinions and statements as attacks because they aren't used to people asking for clarification and justification for said beliefs. Especially when those challenging them often have a far stronger grasp and breadth of knowledge on the subject. Far too many people think that opinions and beliefs are sacred and don't need to be backed up with reasoning and facts. Sure having a lot of people push back is intimidating but for a lot of these people the difference between 5 and 50 doesn't really matter. The fact that any number of people are challenging them to explain and justify their beliefs is cause enough to feel attacked.

You're chasing shadows with this notion that any non-liberal or left learning person on this board is mobbed for their beliefs, this is not a real issue the vast majority of the time. What is an issue are posters who refuse to learn from their mistakes and hold a grudge for bans or challenges to their post and constantly complain about it, as well as the large number of uninformed posters who don't know a dog whistle and bad faith argument when they see it and thus still fall into this trap that beliefs and opinions are somehow valid stances all their own at the end of the day. It's due to that ignorance that you see posters talk about how they're afraid to post in a thread for fear of being dog-pilled or banned, but just because they perceive things to be that way doesn't actually make them that way, because that kind of stuff just doesn't happen most of the time.

Again, if you take just the smallest amount of time to think over your post before replying and actually reading through a thread and actually try to understand what it's about and what people are saying you're more than likely going to come out of it just fine.
I think you're kinder to these 'conservatives' than I am lol, but basically on the same page.

Where in the OP is this explicit?
The OP itself. It is not, 'Here is some ideas, what do you think about them?' It's 'Here's some things, they are happening.' Where in the OP, or any post from any admin or mod in this thread, has it been stated that this thread was for feedback?
 

Owlowiscious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,481
I mean, what do you want? They made an administrative decision to make the change, they researched it and came to a conclusion and are moving forward with that. What are you owed, and why do you feel you are owed anything?
Personally, a two week notice. People quitting jobs are like that, and it’s the only reference I can think of for “professional sudden change that’s being implemented 100%”
 

Shauni

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,728
I mean, what do you want? They made an administrative decision to make the change, they researched it and came to a conclusion and are moving forward with that. What are you owed, and why do you feel you are owed anything?
Just so you know, this has been down this road in this thread multiple times already.
 

Owlowiscious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,481
The OP itself. It is not, 'Here is some ideas, what do you think about them?' It's 'Here's some things, they are happening.' Where in the OP, or any post from any admin or mod in this thread, has it been stated that this thread was for feedback?
The reply button on the bottom right of the post. Reply is synonymous with feedback. This is a forum. A place of discussion.

What you are saying is the definition of implicit, is it not? Inferring that this thread isn’t for feedback?
 

Shauni

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,728
The reply button on the bottom right of the post. Reply is synonymous with feedback. This is a forum. A place of discussion.

What you are saying is the definition of implicit, is it not? Inferring that this thread isn’t for feedback?
When your replies are ignored and dismissed, and the changes are going to happen regardless of what is said, it's not feedback. The fact that no admin or mod has posted in this thread for more than a day shows how much they care about anything being said in here.
 

RedMercury

Member
Dec 24, 2017
9,183
Personally, a two week notice. People quitting jobs are like that, and it’s the only reference I can think of for “professional sudden change that’s being implemented 100%”
It's just a gaming forum though, you're equating it with something that has crucial real-world importance. This is not a profession for the volunteer moderators or for the people who visit the site. If they waited two weeks people would just say "But we've been saying for weeks we didn't want this change!", it would be 2 weeks of a meta shit-storm for the staff to deal with as well. It hasn't even been 2 days and it's a 32 page thread with some of the most overreactive comments, people saying they've "lost all trust" in a bunch of volunteer gaming forum mods, conspiracy theories about this being a move to quarantine politics, it's ridiculous.
Just so you know, this has been down this road in this thread multiple times already.
I was addressing them specifically. And Shauni, I agree with a lot of your opinions, even more often than not, and I don't want to offend you but it feels like you're on a crusade against a bunch of volunteers who are getting an insane amount of shit over something that's just a hobby for all of us and something they are doing in the best interest of that hobby. I think you're being way too harsh and critical
 

Enduin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,771
New York
I mean, what do you want? They made an administrative decision to make the change, they researched it and came to a conclusion and are moving forward with that. What are you owed, and why do you feel you are owed anything?
I'm not owed anything, but as a community it's not surprising people wish there was earlier notice and a chance to discuss things before a decision was made. This site and community means a lot to many of us, it's kind of the whole reason this place exists at all after the collapse of GAF, and part of that is largely owed to the format of the site, which is now being changed. So forgive me if I think it prudent and reasonable to have posted a thread like this before anything was set in stone to at least give people the chance to engage in the discussion and voice their support or reservations, even if at the end of the day the final decision is in the hands of the Admins and whoever they feel necessary to consult.

I have nothing but respect and admiration for the admins and mods and all that they've done to set this place up and all that they continue to do to keep this place running, but that doesn't make them infallible and it doesn't mean they aren't prone to missteps and it doesn't mean I can't voice my displeasure when I think something hasn't been handled properly. I know and appreciate that they believe they are doing what is best for the community and that they think they conducted this in the most efficient and reasonable way possible, but I respectfully disagree. A true open discussion would certainly be messy and a lot of work for them, but just because something isn't as easy and efficient doesn't mean it shouldn't be done that way. This notion that disagreeing with how this change has been handled is an attack on the admins and mods is absurd and the attempts by far too many people to paint it that way is concerning.

That you act like we should be thankful that this thread is open at all is just pathetic and insulting.
 

Owlowiscious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,481
You can say that all you want, it really doesn't make it any less false that nothing said in this thread will have any effect on the changes that's scheduled to happen later. This is not a feedback thread: it's an announcement one.
I don’t care. You said it’s explicit when it’s implicit. That is this discussion can you please explicitly admit that it is implicit?

It's just a gaming forum though, you're equating it with something that has crucial real-world importance. This is not a profession for the volunteer moderators or for the people who visit the site. If they waited two weeks people would just say "But we've been saying for weeks we didn't want this change!", it would be 2 weeks of a meta shit-storm for the staff to deal with as well. It hasn't even been 2 days and it's a 32 page thread with some of the most overreactive comments, people saying they've "lost all trust" in a bunch of volunteer gaming forum mods, conspiracy theories about this being a move to quarantine politics, it's ridiculous.
I expect a place with rules, administration, paid advertisements, adult participants, announcements, and I’m too lazy to think up more words, to act professional. You’re saying you don’t think this is a professional forum. To clarify, I mean the structure. The content, the posters and general posts, is a different topic. Edit: this reply was based on my odd interpretation you putting the word “profession” in your post. Feel free to ignore this crazy tangent as it isn’t specifically about your post. I do feel this way so I’m leaving this post here.

Edit edit: when you volunteer for something you should still act professional. Just because you volunteered to do it doesn’t give a free pass to do a bad job of it
 
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Shauni

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,728
I was addressing them specifically. And Shauni, I agree with a lot of your opinions, even more often than not, and I don't want to offend you but it feels like you're on a crusade against a bunch of volunteers who are getting an insane amount of shit over something that's just a hobby for all of us and something they are doing in the best interest of that hobby. I think you're being way too harsh and critical
I already addressed this point way back in the early stages in this thread. But I'll give the cliff notes of how I feel about this.

I'm 100% aware of the fact that most (if not all) mods and admins are just volunteers. I know it's not a paying job. However, they still chose that responsibility at the end of the day. They made the choice to be the shepards of this community (unless I missed a vote somewhere and they were elected to these positions, and if that was the case someone can set me straight). If they want that responsibility, then I don't think it's unreasonable to put them to that standard. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect at least someone on that plateau to engage those of us who actually are going out of their way to try and discuss this, especially when they themselves want to continuously give lip service about how much they love the community and want it to prosper or whatever.

I'm not on any crusade lol. I'm just discussing this stuff openly and honestly.
 

Owlowiscious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,481
Lol, okay, I guess. I feel it's pretty explicit, especially with the admin responses afterward, but okay it is implicitly not a feedback thread.
Thank you.
What do you feel these posts are, including yours, if not feedback? I think this is all feedback. Yeah probably ignored or whatever by admin, but it’s still feedback. Do you feel that something is not feedback if it doesn’t reach a specific audience? I’m wondering if our definitions of feedback differ.

Again I’m misreading a post.

What is this thread for, if not feedback? What kind of posts would you expect to be made in a thread with an OP like this one?
 

Shauni

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,728
Thank you.
What do you feel these posts are, including yours, if not feedback? I think this is all feedback. Yeah probably ignored or whatever by admin, but it’s still feedback. Do you feel that something is not feedback if it doesn’t reach a specific audience? I’m wondering if our definitions of feedback differ.
I really think it only counts as feedback if it's reaching someone who can do something about it and, more importantly, they care enough to pay attention. And, frankly and honestly, I don't think any of them do. What we are doing here and probably isn't much more than just venting lol.
 

Owlowiscious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,481
I really think it only counts as feedback if it's reaching someone who can do something about it and, more importantly, they care enough to pay attention. And, frankly and honestly, I don't think any of them do. What we are doing here and probably isn't much more than just venting lol.
Oh ok our definition just differs. Yeah I agree it’s not reaching anyone, I just consider venting as also feedback.
 

Benita

Banned
Aug 27, 2018
862
I don't have strong feelings about this either way, but what Shauni and others are asking for - a reasonable consultation period and engagement with users in this thread - is hardly out of line.
 

RedMercury

Member
Dec 24, 2017
9,183
That you act like we should be thankful that this thread is open at all is just pathetic and insulting.
This is what I'm talking about. It's a goddamn forum thread, it's just a structural redesign of a video game forum and the rhetoric is unbelievable. "Insulting and pathetic"? Dude, okay.
I'm not owed anything, but as a community it's not surprising people wish there was earlier notice and a chance to discuss things before a decision was made.
And a ton of people still wouldn't have been happy. And the vast majority of people probably don't give a shit either way.
This site and community means a lot to many of us
Maybe too much if people are having these sorts of reactions
So forgive me if I think it prudent and reasonable to have posted a thread like this before anything was set in stone to at least give people the chance to engage in the discussion and voice their support or reservations, even if at the end of the day the final decision is in the hands of the Admins and whoever they feel necessary to consult.
And that sets the precedent that every change needs to go through that process, and that isn't how to run a forum. Ultimately there are the owners and the people in charge and we are a guest in their house. Yes, you can voice your concerns as you are doing right now, but this isn't a democracy and I don't think they need to play-act like it is to appease people.
However, they still chose that responsibility at the end of the day. They made the choice to be the shepards of this community (unless I missed a vote somewhere and they were elected to these positions, and if that was the case someone can set me straight). If they want that responsibility, then I don't think it's unreasonable to put them to that standard. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect at least someone on that plateau to engage those of us who actually are going out of their way to try and discuss this, especially when they themselves want to continuously give lip service about how much they love the community and want it to prosper or whatever.
Okay, I'm just saying maybe holding anonymous volunteers to standards a lot of people don't even hold elected officials to over an internet forum is asking too much, and also your standard is not everyone's standard, it may not even be the internal standard of the team. And let's say they have no intention of meeting your standard, are you going to continue using the site? it just reads to me like "I want things to be my way" and not that your way is bad and it's fine for you to voice your opinion but at what point will you say "you know what, this site might not jive with my expectations"?
 

Enduin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,771
New York
This is what I'm talking about. It's a goddamn forum thread, it's just a structural redesign of a video game forum and the rhetoric is unbelievable. "Insulting and pathetic"? Dude, okay.
Your attitude and dismissal of people's concerns and acting as though we should be happy we can reply at all to this thread is what's insulting and pathetic.

And a ton of people still wouldn't have been happy. And the vast majority of people probably don't give a shit either way.
Of course you cannot please everyone all the time, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to engage with the community all the same. I don't expect them to bow to my wishes and desires, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't appreciate the chance to voice them when it actually might matter.

Maybe too much if people are having these sorts of reactions
Once again, insulting and pathetic.

And that sets the precedent that every change needs to go through that process, and that isn't how to run a forum. Ultimately there are the owners and the people in charge and we are a guest in their house. Yes, you can voice your concerns as you are doing right now, but this isn't a democracy and I don't think they need to play-act like it is to appease people.
Bullshit and nonsense.
 

Shauni

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,728
Okay, I'm just saying maybe holding anonymous volunteers to standards a lot of people don't even hold elected officials to over an internet forum is asking too much, and also your standard is not everyone's standard, it may not even be the internal standard of the team. And let's say they have no intention of meeting your standard, are you going to continue using the site? it just reads to me like "I want things to be my way" and not that your way is bad and it's fine for you to voice your opinion but at what point will you say "you know what, this site might not jive with my expectations"?
I mean, it's very obvious what you're saying lol, you don't need a disclaimer. Nor do I think it's some god-like standard that you try to imply. I mean, honestly, if having someone with knowledge and ability to answer basic questions when you drop an announcement that is going to alter the site pretty drastically is some kind of high-standard that is incredibly sad by any measure.

As far as the rest, I don't particularly appreciate a 'shut up or get out' approach, but it's fair I guess. I'll keep using the site as long as I feel there's good experiences to be had here. There's still a good community here and there's a lot of helpful stuff here. As long as that's here I'll keep using it *shrug*
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,554
I don't have strong feelings about this either way, but what Shauni and others are asking for - a reasonable consultation period and engagement with users in this thread - is hardly out of line.
Amen. What I would really love to hear is the why not behind it being put to a poll. I suppose they knew the answer to the poll would be that folks wouldn't want this change, and that would go against a decision they'd already made.

Reminder, folks. We'll have a way to hide these hangout threads. I suggest everyone use it after Sunday.
 

JetSetSoul

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,036
Be nice to choose when I'm ready for politics. Not very often on here tbh, since I try not to open or engage those threads.

Not even that I'm against the politics of the place, more that I'd rather vote and not discuss them. They make me bitter and resentful online, even when I agree. More activism instead, etc., etc.
 

Khrol

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,901
Putting politics in its own sub forum is a great idea since I never want to read Era politics.
 
Oct 31, 2017
2,441
I agree. I worry that this will further divide the people who post here "just for fun and games lol" and the people who care about important aspects of our society. Just seems like an easy-way-out for people that have bad political views and want to just "talk about games and movies".

I understand why Videogames are separate from everything else, because this is a gaming forum first and foremost, but the progressive politics the majority of the posters on this site share are an important part of Era and I don't think politics should be shoved to the side and be completely avoidable by most users if they want to. It's something people should have to face to at least some degree even if they decide not to post in those threads.
Of course it will. The stated intent may state that that's not the goal of this, and I believe them, but they can't pretend like this won't have a profound change with how user engagement happens on this forum. I mean hell, this is a video game message board first and foremost. More than any other group of people, our community should know that by changing how options are presented within an interface has a great impact on both perception and user engagement. Think of what happens in multiplayer games with matchmaking playlists, the Halo games being a classic example.

Fundamentally, I think that this message board should stay Gaming first, everything else second but equitable in presentation. Going to Gaming + Entertainment + Everything else dilutes the overall community and naturally gives more weight to overall entertainment/pop culture discussion. Everyone gets this, look at the very post above mine. I think that having the message board as Gaming + Everything Else is good because what this does is says "OK, on a basic level, you can come here and only engage with the Gaming community. But, if you want to engage with any other level of discussion on this site, you may have to encounter thoughts and opinions that challenge your views and preconceptions". And I think that that is how this message board should stay, personally.

Now with this proposed change, this allows for a far larger number of people to interact with the site and some of its community, without having to potentially have their perceptions challenged on things or to see things that may be too 'unplesant'. Now, of course, from a business and 'message board health'/sustainability perspective, of course then it makes sense to do what will maybe encourage more users to both come to the site and continue to use it, since they can now mostly avoid discussions and topics that challenge them.

This reminds me of newspapers becoming timid with what kind of messages they display with their headlines and front page articles, because they are so afraid of upsetting the readerbase and general passer-by's.
 

John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
1,927
And that sets the precedent that every change needs to go through that process, and that isn't how to run a forum. Ultimately there are the owners and the people in charge and we are a guest in their house. Yes, you can voice your concerns as you are doing right now, but this isn't a democracy and I don't think they need to play-act like it is to appease people.
I think you're downplaying the role that all members play. You can call it a house and everyone on it guests, but forums live and die by their membership. Forums have collapsed when a large number of its members left.

Its a symbiotic relationship between staff and members as the forum itself can't exist without them. As far as your last sentence goes outside of actual politics, almost nothing is a democracy but a good boss still runs ideas by his top level staff and discusses changes with them instead of deciding things unilaterally.

It doesn't have to be a "democracy" or anything like that but don't act like staff can simply do as they please regardless of how people feel and everything be fine.

(Note I'm not even against the change, I'm just disputing the idea that members are nothing more than guests who don't contribute. One final point, the more members a forum has along with more quality discussion can lead to an increase in lurkers and an increase in ad revenue. So again members are far more important than guests)
 

Khrol

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,901
I'd be happier with the idea if they just made a new section called Politics. Like...let's not pretend this isn't them giving Politics it's own section. Just go all the way with it.
I don’t disagree but as far as my interests are concerned for this forum I can get everything I want while totally ignoring the politics.
 

alr1ght

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,439
Of course it will. The stated intent may state that that's not the goal of this, and I believe them, but they can't pretend like this won't have a profound change with how user engagement happens on this forum. I mean hell, this is a video game message board first and foremost. More than any other group of people, our community should know that by changing how options are presented within an interface has a great impact on both perception and user engagement. Think of what happens in multiplayer games with matchmaking playlists, the Halo games being a classic example.

Fundamentally, I think that this message board should stay Gaming first, everything else second but equitable in presentation. Going to Gaming + Entertainment + Everything else dilutes the overall community and naturally gives more weight to overall entertainment/pop culture discussion. Everyone gets this, look at the very post above mine. I think that having the message board as Gaming + Everything Else is good because what this does is says "OK, on a basic level, you can come here and only engage with the Gaming community. But, if you want to engage with any other level of discussion on this site, you may have to encounter thoughts and opinions that challenge your views and preconceptions". And I think that that is how this message board should stay, personally.

Now with this proposed change, this allows for a far larger number of people to interact with the site and some of its community, without having to potentially have their perceptions challenged on things or to see things that may be too 'unplesant'. Now, of course, from a business and 'message board health'/sustainability perspective, of course then it makes sense to do what will maybe encourage more users to both come to the site and continue to use it, since they can now mostly avoid discussions and topics that challenge them.

This reminds me of newspapers becoming timid with what kind of messages they display with their headlines and front page articles, because they are so afraid of upsetting the readerbase and general passer-by's.
Nail on head. This fundamentally changes how this entire community will communicate with each other.
 

Nemo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
422
Funny how after all the GAF drama the people in charge of this site still didn’t fully realize the concept of “community is everything” and this place is nothing without it. So to make this change through a consulting a few “prominent members” (lmao) and excluding everyone else is pretty sad. Humans really don’t learn from history and it really is bound to repeat itself.
 

RedMercury

Member
Dec 24, 2017
9,183
Its a symbiotic relationship between staff and members as the forum itself can't exist without them. As far as your last sentence goes outside of actual politics, almost nothing is a democracy but a good boss still runs ideas by his top level staff and discusses changes with them instead of deciding things unilaterally.
They did ask people for feedback, just not everyone. I also believe many things are team decisions, with quite a large mod staff most large decisions such as this or policy changes aren't going to be decided unilaterally. The mod and admin job is to discuss and make those changes, and to communicate them and enforce changes. They discussed this change among themselves, then they brought it to some community members for more input, now they are enacting it, they handled it as anyone would expect it to be handled, outside of not giving much notice but there are several reasons to not do that, however I'm not going to say anyone is "wrong" for having that opinion and if it came off that way I apologize, I don't want to downplay people's opinions about a large change to a forum they enjoy.

I have reservations and opinions about the change as well. Part of where I'm coming from with my opinion is being in the same position from a moderator perspective on other forums, having enacted large changes and the complaints associated with them, and the fallout afterwards if any. It is not an enjoyable position to be in trying to make a positive change and knowing no matter what you do there will be very vocally unhappy people, and trying to make a positive change that is tarnished by conspiracy theories and harmful rhetoric. If this were a positive change that many agreed with, would people still be angry they weren't consulted? Probably not for the most part.

I think it's great that people enjoy Era, I do too! I should not have downplayed that people have an attachment to the site, upon reflection there are many great reasons to be attached to a cool community. I just think when something as relatively benign as a redesign balloons into conspiracy theories or accusatory tones or very dramatic posts about trust, I dunno, my first reaction is just "take a breath and look at it from their perspective" because we're all on the same team here. Does that make sense? Like I said, I have reservations, but this thread has turned so dour over something the team was probably very excited about, and that sucks.

I hope people give it a fair chance, and I hope the staff is still reading this thread and notes some of the concerns users have that can possibly be addressed with future updates or feature rollouts.
 

Shmunter

Banned
May 28, 2018
377
VR needs to be as visible as possible. Having PSVR in hangouts stifles it. Speaking from personal experience where I never visit the PSVR thread.
 

Crushed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,241
The staff should really take note that a lot of the posts arguing against it are actually explaining their fears about usability, readability, why it could backfire, scenarios where it makes things worse, and a lot of the posts for this are just "good idea!" or people talking about how this move that's supposed to be for more visibility makes them happy because it directly makes certain things less visible.
 

SeanM

Member
Oct 26, 2017
802
USA
So I'm going to make a prediction for tonight and the near future.

The first week of this change is going to be rough as people get acquainted to the new form layouts. Some people will try to purposefully bombard the new section to validate it was a bad idea, those people will be dealt with. After the first week though, things will go back to normal. It won't have been as big a deal as people are screaming about, and it will probably lead to new types of topics gaining popularity as they wont be fighting for real-estate with EtcetEra.

Ultimately, how it will playout is that this new Eratainment Board will grow to be like the Gaming Board in topic type, but better due to lack of brand loyalty. Ultimately with threads for new Movie Releases and a larger number of threads for TV Shows, Anime and Music. Having given legitimacy due to being given its own board, more of these discussions will take place and it will grow to its own unique thing.

As for EtcetEra, after the rough first week of topics posted in the wrong board, things will normalize. Politics and World News will continue unimpeded, The joke threads will continue unimpeded, the dating, health and "am I already dead?" threads will continue as normal. Really, the only difference up front will be that we won't see the purely Entertainment Industry Threads since they will be in their own board.

In the end, people naturally hate change, and you can't please everyone. That said the community isn't changing and politically we are a progressive forum If something is broken, lets experiment and see if we can fix it. Maybe we make it better, maybe things get worse.. and if things get worse, well fixing them is just as simple as recreating the old "Community" board and moving the threads. So the only downside is the potential for there maybe being minor inconvenience if everything has to be move back.

So basically, lets just see how it works. We might like it in practice better than in theory.
This is how I envision it playing out.

1. The Entertainment board is going to get the lions share of traffic, as evidenced by many of the replies in this thread from people who want to avoid seeing any political stuff (and just by looking at the most popular stuff currently in Hangouts and Etcetera).

2. Meaning Etcetera will suffer from this change. It basically becomes a politics forum (which many people say they want to avoid) and real life hobby stuff (most of which are niche).

3. When something Trump-related does get posted in the Entertainment board (NFL anthem protest drama, Lebron vs Trump etc) there will be a bunch of pissy people saying this is our safe space, bring politics back to Etcetera board etc. Basically segregating people and causing unecessary fighting and thread whining.

4. The communities that are super popular right now (wrestling, sports, anime, etc) will continue to be super popular and always remain fixtures on the first page of Entertainment. It'll be essentially like having 20+ topics stickied. And it's gonna get worse in a few weeks when the dozens of TV shows return, so there will be a bunch of TV show OT's too.

5. These smaller / "dying" communities that this move was designed to help will be buried even quicker in this new format. Something that is on page 2 of the Hangouts forum would be on like page 4 or 5 of the Entertainment forum after this merge takes place. And let's be honest, nobody is looking on page 4 or 5 to find stuff, the only way those threads get bumped is if someone has them on their watched threads list (basically same as today).

6. People will realize they now have to constantly see and skip past a LOT of irrelevant threads to them. They will either stop visiting as much or install something like the Hide Forum Topics plugin. Which defeats the whole purpose of this change as now the users who install that are never seeing those threads at all.

7. Admins (who have largely been radio silent in this thread) will probably not acknowledge any user feedback on this or just say it's too early to tell, give it a chance and you'll get used to it, wait for things to shake out, wait for ResetEra 2.0 to improve this, etc. And by then several months will have past and it might be too late. Those who disliked this change may have already left, and if it gets reversed back to how it is today, those who did like the change might now leave too. Sort of a lose-lose.

I hope that I'm wrong and that this all works out. I think these changes are coming from a good place (helping smaller communities), but it doesn't really seem like enough thought went into this, and it's probably going to be a detrimental change to most.
 

Smash-It Stan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,067
Funny how after all the GAF drama the people in charge of this site still didn’t fully realize the concept of “community is everything” and this place is nothing without it. So to make this change through a consulting a few “prominent members” (lmao) and excluding everyone else is pretty sad. Humans really don’t learn from history and it really is bound to repeat itself.
This has been around since Gaf, certain members essentially run certain places and have total power over that domain. A lot of it carried over and bled over here, funny enough Gaf at least tried to mask it behind having a Anonymous Mod Bot for Moderators.
 

John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
1,927
They discussed this change among themselves, then they brought it to some community members for more input, now they are enacting it, they handled it as anyone would expect it to be handled, outside of not giving much notice but there are several reasons to not do that, however I'm not going to say anyone is "wrong" for having that opinion and if it came off that way I apologize, I don't want to downplay people's opinions about a large change to a forum they enjoy.
No worries, like I said I don't care about the change. I just thought you were coming off a bit condescending in your earlier posts especially with the whole guests in their house line.

A forum is nothing without its members, members can make or break a forum.

Again whether or not your point of view makes sense isn't really the point. Old adage of its not what you say but how you say it applies.

I don't think people are really against the change itself but how it was made and announced.

How would you define positive change if we're talking hypotheticals ? Some users want emojis, others don't. If it was announced that emojis would be implemented tomorrow, some people would view it as positive and others would not.
 

lint2015

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,540
This is a good idea, I lose track of threads I used to go back to from time to time before they were relegated to Hangouts because I never venture into Hangouts.
 
Oct 31, 2017
2,441
Nail on head. This fundamentally changes how this entire community will communicate with each other.
Yeah, I think there should be more people beating this drum personally, but at the end of the day "It's just a message board!". I do think this fundamental of a change has the potential to be a disaster though, which would be a huge shame imo, considering what happened to the previous site and how, for the most part from my perception the 'heart & soul' of the community was able to stay intact and migrate to here with relative ease. And as others have mentioned, a change of this level, while they could reverse it if it seems like a bad thing for the site, I don't know if it wouldn't have irreversible damage.

And I don't want to be accusatory or promote a "Conspiracy Theory", I'm just speaking from what I feel is my gut reaction and feeling regarding this news and speak from how I personally perceive this. (And I don't really know how you can perceive it otherwise, tbh).

Everything about this, from the (apparent? idk) initial thread floating & proposing this, to this thread's OP detailing their go-ahead plans to do this, posting this OP after work on Friday of Labor Day weekend in the U.S. stating that the change is happening Sunday after consideration and consultation from prominent forum leaders/figures, to how everyone who has say and power behind this change has personally responded to this after people have voiced legitimate concerns. "Things will be okay!" *pats pretty little forum posters head*

On some levels, it feels insulting. But maybe I'm being ~overly-dramatic & sensational~.

The staff should really take note that a lot of the posts arguing against it are actually explaining their fears about usability, readability, why it could backfire, scenarios where it makes things worse, and a lot of the posts for this are just "good idea!" or people talking about how this move that's supposed to be for more visibility makes them happy because it directly makes certain things less visible.
Yeah, this may sound assholish and it kind of is, but I think the number of posts in this thread that are receptive and encouraging of this change and the content that embodies their posts suggesting as such, is reflective of the level of conversation/discourse that this kind of change is seeking to facilitate. Pretty interesting tbh haha. But hey...

I really do hope this is a good decision for this forum, I really do. This community is pretty great and I want it to be healthy, but at the same time, I don't think the board should try to fundamentally alter its social and ideological makeup and this kind of change could really do that.

I also think that it's kind of bad that this thread hasn't seen more action and commenting from the community at large. I didn't even see a notification for it until noon the day after, and I don't know if it's a bug or if it's done deliberately for this thread (....), but there is no 'Most recent response' indicator & no indication of who last posted and when, you actually have to wade in here and read the discourse continually to know the action of this thread. Pretty interesting is all I'll say about this.
 

Megasoum

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,067
Of course it will. The stated intent may state that that's not the goal of this, and I believe them, but they can't pretend like this won't have a profound change with how user engagement happens on this forum. I mean hell, this is a video game message board first and foremost. More than any other group of people, our community should know that by changing how options are presented within an interface has a great impact on both perception and user engagement. Think of what happens in multiplayer games with matchmaking playlists, the Halo games being a classic example.

Fundamentally, I think that this message board should stay Gaming first, everything else second but equitable in presentation. Going to Gaming + Entertainment + Everything else dilutes the overall community and naturally gives more weight to overall entertainment/pop culture discussion. Everyone gets this, look at the very post above mine. I think that having the message board as Gaming + Everything Else is good because what this does is says "OK, on a basic level, you can come here and only engage with the Gaming community. But, if you want to engage with any other level of discussion on this site, you may have to encounter thoughts and opinions that challenge your views and preconceptions". And I think that that is how this message board should stay, personally.

Now with this proposed change, this allows for a far larger number of people to interact with the site and some of its community, without having to potentially have their perceptions challenged on things or to see things that may be too 'unplesant'. Now, of course, from a business and 'message board health'/sustainability perspective, of course then it makes sense to do what will maybe encourage more users to both come to the site and continue to use it, since they can now mostly avoid discussions and topics that challenge them.

This reminds me of newspapers becoming timid with what kind of messages they display with their headlines and front page articles, because they are so afraid of upsetting the readerbase and general passer-by's.
The staff should really take note that a lot of the posts arguing against it are actually explaining their fears about usability, readability, why it could backfire, scenarios where it makes things worse, and a lot of the posts for this are just "good idea!" or people talking about how this move that's supposed to be for more visibility makes them happy because it directly makes certain things less visible.
This is how I envision it playing out.

1. The Entertainment board is going to get the lions share of traffic, as evidenced by many of the replies in this thread from people who want to avoid seeing any political stuff (and just by looking at the most popular stuff currently in Hangouts and Etcetera).

2. Meaning Etcetera will suffer from this change. It basically becomes a politics forum (which many people say they want to avoid) and real life hobby stuff (most of which are niche).

3. When something Trump-related does get posted in the Entertainment board (NFL anthem protest drama, Lebron vs Trump etc) there will be a bunch of pissy people saying this is our safe space, bring politics back to Etcetera board etc. Basically segregating people and causing unecessary fighting and thread whining.

4. The communities that are super popular right now (wrestling, sports, anime, etc) will continue to be super popular and always remain fixtures on the first page of Entertainment. It'll be essentially like having 20+ topics stickied. And it's gonna get worse in a few weeks when the dozens of TV shows return, so there will be a bunch of TV show OT's too.

5. These smaller / "dying" communities that this move was designed to help will be buried even quicker in this new format. Something that is on page 2 of the Hangouts forum would be on like page 4 or 5 of the Entertainment forum after this merge takes place. And let's be honest, nobody is looking on page 4 or 5 to find stuff, the only way those threads get bumped is if someone has them on their watched threads list (basically same as today).

6. People will realize they now have to constantly see and skip past a LOT of irrelevant threads to them. They will either stop visiting as much or install something like the Hide Forum Topics plugin. Which defeats the whole purpose of this change as now the users who install that are never seeing those threads at all.

7. Admins (who have largely been radio silent in this thread) will probably not acknowledge any user feedback on this or just say it's too early to tell, give it a chance and you'll get used to it, wait for things to shake out, wait for ResetEra 2.0 to improve this, etc. And by then several months will have past and it might be too late. Those who disliked this change may have already left, and if it gets reversed back to how it is today, those who did like the change might now leave too. Sort of a lose-lose.

I hope that I'm wrong and that this all works out. I think these changes are coming from a good place (helping smaller communities), but it doesn't really seem like enough thought went into this, and it's probably going to be a detrimental change to most.
Yeah, I think there should be more people beating this drum personally, but at the end of the day "It's just a message board!". I do think this fundamental of a change has the potential to be a disaster though, which would be a huge shame imo, considering what happened to the previous site and how, for the most part from my perception the 'heart & soul' of the community was able to stay intact and migrate to here with relative ease. And as others have mentioned, a change of this level, while they could reverse it if it seems like a bad thing for the site, I don't know if it wouldn't have irreversible damage.

And I don't want to be accusatory or promote a "Conspiracy Theory", I'm just speaking from what I feel is my gut reaction and feeling regarding this news and speak from how I personally perceive this. (And I don't really know how you can perceive it otherwise, tbh).

Everything about this, from the (apparent? idk) initial thread floating & proposing this, to this thread's OP detailing their go-ahead plans to do this, posting this OP after work on Friday of Labor Day weekend in the U.S. stating that the change is happening Sunday after consideration and consultation from prominent forum leaders/figures, to how everyone who has say and power behind this change has personally responded to this after people have voiced legitimate concerns. "Things will be okay!" *pats pretty little forum posters head*

On some levels, it feels insulting. But maybe I'm being ~overly-dramatic & sensational~.



Yeah, this may sound assholish and it kind of is, but I think the number of posts in this thread that are receptive and encouraging of this change and the content that embodies their posts suggesting as such, is reflective of the level of conversation/discourse that this kind of change is seeking to facilitate. Pretty interesting tbh haha. But hey...

I really do hope this is a good decision for this forum, I really do. This community is pretty great and I want it to be healthy, but at the same time, I don't think the board should try to fundamentally alter its social and ideological makeup and this kind of change could really do that.

I also think that it's kind of bad that this thread hasn't seen more action and commenting from the community at large. I didn't even see a notification for it until noon the day after, and I don't know if it's a bug or if it's done deliberately for this thread (....), but there is no 'Most recent response' indicator & no indication of who last posted and when, you actually have to wade in here and read the discourse continually to know the action of this thread. Pretty interesting is all I'll say about this.
Very well said all of you.

The only thing I'd add to that is that considering what is happening in the world at large and in the US more specifically right now, the political threads should be MORE visible, NOT isolated in their own corner where the "head in the sand" people can easily avoid them...

Reacting to this change by saying "Yay, I won't have to see all the political bullshit anymore" is a terrible thing to say....
 
Oct 31, 2017
2,441
Very well said all of you.

The only thing I'd add to that is that considering what is happening in the world at large and in the US more specifically right now, the political threads should be MORE visible, NOT isolated in their own corner where the "head in the sand" people can easily avoid them...

Reacting to this change by saying "Yay, I won't have to see all the political bullshit anymore" is a terrible thing to say....
Yes definitely, not with just the United States (although, let's be honest, the U.S. is incredibly important for everyone, citizens or not), but also the rise of far-right ideologies all across the globe in Democratic nations. And how these groups have & continue to expressly leverage the power of the internet and social platforms, to both gain more power and also to attempt to deny power to their opponents.

Look at the comments just the other day from Laura Ingraham coupled with Trump's comments on how Google & Facebook may need "looked at" and that maybe these 'large internet companies' should be managed and controlled by the government like a utility. Not the infrastructure of the internet, but the tools and apparatuses that most dictate how information and knowledge is most broadly and efficiently disseminated around the web.

Those kinds of things should worry everyone, beyond just what kind of impact this design change has on our relatively small message board (though it's probably more relevant that might be led on by some).
 

Deleted member 1041

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,725
Yes definitely, not with just the United States (although, let's be honest, the U.S. is incredibly important for everyone, citizens or not), but also the rise of far-right ideologies all across the globe in Democratic nations. And how these groups have & continue to expressly leverage the power of the internet and social platforms, to both gain more power and also to attempt to deny power to their opponents.

Look at the comments just the other day from Laura Ingraham coupled with Trump's comments on how Google & Facebook may need "looked at" and that maybe these 'large internet companies' should be managed and controlled by the government like a utility. Not the infrastructure of the internet, but the tools and apparatuses that most dictate how information and knowledge is most broadly and efficiently disseminated around the web.

Those kinds of things should worry everyone, beyond just what kind of impact this design change has on our relatively small message board (though it's probably more relevant that might be led on by some).
I get that there are international posters here. Some have spoken up and said as much. But Resetera is an American board, the majority of people here are American(I assume), and well..what do you expect? Like...you choose to come here and view our dirty news, whatever it may be.

Sigh. I dunno. I really dunno guys. People are gonna be happy they can talk about their entertainment without having to go through political threads, but I feel a big part of what made resetera-and previously neogaf-, resetera, will die with that change.

Sigh.
 

striderno9

The Fallen
Oct 31, 2017
1,600
New York, NY
After reading this entire thread since my original post I'll just say I think the way it stands now with Video Games and EtcEra as the main boards is a good idea and I agree with others that this change may backfire against its original intended purpose. I hope I'm wrong.
 
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