Anti-Semitism pervades European life, says EU report

[Spirit of Jazz]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/14/opinion/sweden-antisemitism-jews.html

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The linked study just says that it's now only up at Tel Aviv university? I'm just still rather sceptical of scenario's where the left are antisemitic outside of when they're labelled so for criticising Israel including being critical of the IHRA definition when one of the point was directly to justify censoring a holocaust survivor's free speech for comparing Israel to the Nazis.

At the same time if left governments are fearful to speak out on hate crimes committed by Islamic refugee's there's clearly an issue. At the same time you'd imagine they'd be quieter on the subject not to embolden the far right given the non-criminal refugees are being demonised already.

 

[Aramon]

The linked study just says that it's now only up at Tel Aviv university? I'm just still rather sceptical of scenario's where the left are antisemitic outside of when they're labelled so for criticising Israel including being critical of the IHRA definition when one of the point was directly to justify censoring a holocaust survivor's free speech for comparing Israel to the Nazis.

At the same time if left governments are fearful to speak out on hate crimes committed by Islamic refugee's there's clearly an issue. At the same time you'd imagine they'd be quieter on the subject not to embolden the far right given the non-criminal refugees are being demonised already.

Click to shrink...

Here is another.

University of Oslo Center for Research on Extremism

Antisemitic Violence in Europe, 2005-2015 Exposure and Perpetrators in France, UK, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Russia
https://www.hlsenteret.no/aktuelt/p...isk-vold-i-europa_engelsk_endelig-versjon.pdf

 

[Masterz1337]

I don't doubt that you have the right intentions and would not abuse a Jewish person for the sake of it but you are a fleas' bollocks hair away from full blown racism with that sort of thinking. No matter how many cast iron examples you can throw out, you're talking about eliminating the citizenship of millions of people and exposing them to very real dangers of violence and ethnic cleansing. Nobody deserves that. Most Israelis are just normal people trying to get on in life, the same as you.

It's just about empathy ultimately. Look at someone like Bibi. How can you begin to combat him if you can't grasp his motivations? The fact that his brother was blown to bits by a Palestinian, in his mind, gives him the same justification as you're giving for your views about removing Israel.

The fact is that the Palestinians are in a horrible position, but equally they do disgraceful, unforgivable things. You cannot blanket support one side over another here without being racist to one of them, and I would hope that as a forum of leftist anti-racists we would be able to see the problems in dogpiling in every Israel thread, much as we would if someone started a thread calling for the final ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

Just don't be a dick.

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A country being "erased" and replaced with a better one isn't advocating the removal of their citizenship and ethnic cleansing. In the case of Israel, it's about replacing a state that favors one religion over another. I could go to Israel and become a citizen, with a simple plane ride and be given money by the government to move there. A Christian, Muslim or any other religious identity is not granted the same rights. An Arab in Israel, is not granted the same rights and liberties as a Jew in Israel, including the rights to have their family visit them or marry the people they want.

And yeah, the Palestinians have done some bad things, what they have not done is use white phosphorus on civilian populations, fired depleted uranium bullets that have lead to numerous birth defects and instances of leukemia, or cut off water supply's to population centers with young innocent children. The comparison is not equal at all. The death and casualty tolls alone tell you that. The situation there is terrible, and the disregard for Palestinians is absorbent. On my plane ride back from there I had an Israeli soldier bragging to me on the plane how they'd hit children in Gaza with the butt of their rifles for everyone to hear. No one gives a shit. And the government is actively moving and attracting Jewish migrants and giving them something to lose in the West Bank in order to solidify their majority and make a 2 state solution impossible.

 

[Masterz1337]

I don't doubt that you have the right intentions and would not abuse a Jewish person for the sake of it but you are a fleas' bollocks hair away from full blown racism with that sort of thinking. No matter how many cast iron examples you can throw out, you're talking about eliminating the citizenship of millions of people and exposing them to very real dangers of violence and ethnic cleansing. Nobody deserves that. Most Israelis are just normal people trying to get on in life, the same as you.

It's just about empathy ultimately. Look at someone like Bibi. How can you begin to combat him if you can't grasp his motivations? The fact that his brother was blown to bits by a Palestinian, in his mind, gives him the same justification as you're giving for your views about removing Israel.

The fact is that the Palestinians are in a horrible position, but equally they do disgraceful, unforgivable things. You cannot blanket support one side over another here without being racist to one of them, and I would hope that as a forum of leftist anti-racists we would be able to see the problems in dogpiling in every Israel thread, much as we would if someone started a thread calling for the final ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

Just don't be a dick.

Click to shrink...

A country being "erased" and replaced with a better one isn't advocating the removal of their citizenship and ethnic cleansing. In the case of Israel, it's about replacing a state that favors one religion over another. I could go to Israel and become a citizen, with a simple plane ride and be given money by the government to move there. A Christian, Muslim or any other religious identity is not granted the same rights. An Arab in Israel, is not granted the same rights and liberties as a Jew in Israel, including the rights to have their family visit them or marry the people they want.

And yeah, the Palestinians have done some bad things, what they have not done is use white phosphorus on civilian populations, fired depleted uranium bullets that have lead to numerous birth defects and instances of leukemia, or cut off water supply's to population centers with young innocent children. The comparison is not equal at all. The death and casualty tolls alone tell you that. The situation there is terrible, and the disregard for Palestinians is absorbent. On my plane ride back from there I had an Israeli soldier bragging to me on the plane how they'd hit children in Gaza with the butt of their rifles for everyone to hear. No one gives a shit. And the government is actively moving and attracting Jewish migrants and giving them something to lose in the West Bank in order to solidify their majority and make a 2 state solution impossible.

It's a government That is fundementally racist.

Edit: We Americans believe in and pride ourselves in the separation of church and state. Israel is all about the tie of religion and government.

 

[Deleted member 12224]

Mondoweiss: How to tell when defending Israel is actually racist
By Steven Salaita


You're doing a few of these and it's disgusting.

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The instinct to click on a discussion about rising anti-Semitism in Europe and chime in with commentary about Israel -defending racists is audacious.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Here is another.

University of Oslo Center for Research on Extremism

Antisemitic Violence in Europe, 2005-2015 Exposure and Perpetrators in France, UK, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Russia
https://www.hlsenteret.no/aktuelt/p...isk-vold-i-europa_engelsk_endelig-versjon.pdf

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I don't think the study makes much of a case for the left being more antisemitic than the right and is rather about higher rates amongst perceived Muslims. Not taking account that there's a split between left, right, Christian, and Muslim the study actually goes into the issues of trying to identify the politics of the perpetrators and possible issues with reporting in both in Gemany and Sweeden which the NY Times article utterly ignores. Also it would be interesting to see if there was a more signficant rise in antisemitic hate crimes post 2015 given antisemitic hate crimes seem to be relatively consistent up to that point.

 

[zer0blivion]

Total horseshit. Every single time this topic comes up the same people pounce on me every single time a reference to Palestinian violence is made. It is real and wrong. Arabs die because of it too, you know.

I've spent a lot of my time fighting for equal rights for Palestinians. I have fought islamophobia and anti Arab racism. I had a senior labour person suspended because of islamophobia. I work with Arabs daily. Grow up.

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Maybe don't attempt to deflect criticism of a racist apartheid ethnostate by going "both sides are bad" or conflating Hamas with all Palestinians.

The instinct to click on a discussion about rising anti-Semitism in Europe and chime in with commentary about Israel -defending racists is audacious.

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When the definition anti-semitism includes any criticism of Israel or support for BDS, it does a real disservice to everyone, and some push-back should be expected.

 

[Colonel Getafe]

Maybe don't attempt to deflect criticism of a racist apartheid ethnostate by going "both sides are bad" or conflating Hamas with all Palestinians.

When the definition anti-semitism includes any criticism of Israel or support for BDS, it does a real disservice to everyone, and some push-back should be expected.

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Maybe don't come into a thread about scientific study of antisemitism to play your both sides meme card? This is not democrats v republicans and your rhetoric does not apply.

It's a conflict. There are two sides, who are both aggressive. One has more means than the other, it does not mean that the other sides actions can be hand waved away with 'both sidesism'. People are dying because of it. On both sides. Israel's MO is you hit us, we will hit you back, harder. That is what enables Bibi.

Anyone who is actually looking to help the Palestinians would recognise that suicide bombing is not the way out. Much the same as they need to acknowledge that Israel's actions are routinely atrocious and disproportionate. Israelis are radicalised by Palestinian violence and Palestinians are radicalised by Israeli violence. The difference is that Israel can punch infinitely harder. It isn't a moral or aesthetic or political or philosophical difference. By and large they hate each other because of things that have actually happened.

Just don't demonize all of them. I haven't once said here that Palestine is equally to blame or that all Palestinians are terrorists. You're creating a straw man to paint your prejudice upon.

It's usually by now that someone accuses me of being an Israeli astroturfer, the truth is that I'm just listening to victims.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

But guys, what about black on black crime though?

 

[NathanS]

Funny how any discussion I see of antisemitism in my left-wing circles inevitably ends up being all about Israeli. Every fucking time.

After the shooting in Pittsburgh what did I see among the people truly sorry? A good amount going "Well... what was their stance on Israeli?"

 

[julian]

Maybe don't attempt to deflect criticism of a racist apartheid ethnostate by going "both sides are bad" or conflating Hamas with all Palestinians.

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If you're going to conflate all Israelis with the actions of their government, why are you surprised when people do the same thing to Palestinians? You're literally saying that it's okay that Israeli citizens are murdered.

Innocent people shouldn't be murdered. It's not a hard stance to understand.

Edit: I'd also say I can't believe how many posters seem to refuse the idea that the left could have anti-semites...but I can.

 

[Deleted member 8752]

It feels as though we will never go through a period without anti-Semitism. We see it against us even in NYC. It's absurd.

 

[Bisha Monkey]

Your country is going down the drain? No problem just spot a minority, label it as the root of all your problems, and keep on going towards your path of self-destruction.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Funny how any discussion I see of antisemitism in my left-wing circles inevitably ends up being all about Israeli. Every fucking time.

After the shooting in Pittsburgh what did I see among the people truly sorry? A good amount going "Well... what was their stance on Israeli?"

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As someone who's left and who'd really like to have a conversation about antisemitism in the left I'd really like to be able to talk about that. I'd really love if someone had criticisms of how I handled my response to Aramon.

At the same time we have a lot of the topic dedicated to Getafe who's going out of their way to apologise for fascism and constantly ignoring the historical context of the region and how western intervention has constantly led to destruction even down to Hamas being elected due to Bush. If you're looking at it objectivly clearly Plasticine territory has been colonised for decades and Palestine have pretty clearly been powerless. Then he's apparently fine demonising Palestinians as suicide bombers when there have been maybe 2 in the last 5 years and they're members of extremist groups? Though clearly "Israel's MO is you hit us, we will hit you back, harder" is totally accurate when the regime murders medics and is making ethnostate policies law.

I'm drifting a little because of how you said things end up being about Israel. Anybody looking at the alt-right shooting of a Synagogue and even mentioning Israel is a fucking racist who's ignoring that the issue's with alt-right jewish conspiracy theories. If people are saying "Well... what was their stance on Israeli?" they're disgusting human beings on any front.

 

[NathanS]

As someone who's left and who'd really like to have a conversation about antisemitism in the left I'd really like to be able to talk about that. I'd really love if someone had criticisms of how I handled my response to Aramon.

At the same time we have a lot of the topic dedicated to Getafe who's going out of their way to apologise for fascism and constantly ignoring the historical context of the region and how western intervention has constantly led to destruction even down to Hamas being elected due to Bush. If you're looking at it objectivly clearly Plasticine territory has been colonised for decades and Palestine have pretty clearly been powerless. Then he's apparently fine demonising Palestinians as suicide bombers when there have been maybe 2 in the last 5 years and they're members of extremist groups? Though clearly "Israel's MO is you hit us, we will hit you back, harder" is totally accurate when the regime murders medics and is making ethnostate policies law.

I'm drifting a little because of how you said things end up being about Israel. Anybody looking at the alt-right shooting of a Synagogue and even mentioning Israel is a fucking racist who's ignoring that the issue's with alt-right jewish conspiracy theories. If people are saying "Well... what was their stance on Israeli?" they're disgusting human beings on any front.

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I'm not going to talk bout it here. I refused to get dragged into it here, other schmucks may go in for it, but for this one moment I'm not being a schmuck.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Are there numbers/percentages without these three included?

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Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

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That first one you quoted is super antisemitic, like Protocols of the Elders of Zion level. If you think that one isn't, then you're probably an extremely bigoted person.

 

[Trojita]

That first one you quoted is super antisemitic, like Protocols of the Elders of Zion level. If you think that one isn't, then you're probably an extremely bigoted person.

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If there was a Christian nation overseas that Americans were joining the military of to protect the holy land and shoot brown people, I'd be critical about that as well. I find it absurd to join anther countries military but still claiming citizenship in the US. To be civil all I'll say about your bigot comment is that you can take it elsewhere.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

If you're going to conflate all Israelis with the actions of their government, why are you surprised when people do the same thing to Palestinians? You're literally saying that it's okay that Israeli citizens are murdered.

Innocent people shouldn't be murdered. It's not a hard stance to understand.

Edit: I'd also say I can't believe how many posters seem to refuse the idea that the left could have anti-semites...but I can.

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Israel is a democracy with a government policy that is representative of the wishes of its population. So yes, Israelis are responsible. Or else, it's not "The only Democracy in the Middle East™"
Palestine is a dictatorship run by the wrecked remains of what once were freedom groups, that take the breadcrumbs of power that Israel allows them to take.

 

[sirap]

Netanyahu has also been re-elected what, 3 times in a row?

 

[Zappy]

Hating different ethnic groups is anathema to progressive ideology.

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Not sure what your point is? People on the left are quite often racist. And quite often not progressive.

 

[Dr.Phibes]

Not sure what your point is? People on the left are quite often racist.

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They are? Got any sources on that?

 

[Zappy]

They are? Got any sources on that?

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Sources? Have you followed the anti-semitism row in the UK Labour party this year? A leftist party with a self-admitted problem of anti-semitism. A problem the party still hasn't managed to properly deal with.

I am a socialist - but if you genuinely think that the left (and far left) don't have a lot of racists involved then you are very naive. Racism is prevalent throughout society and whether right, centrist or left there are racists everywhere.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

They are? Got any sources on that?

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Ask the minorities around here if we have faith in our progressive 'allies' not being racist to some degree.

Just because they're not as bad as the right doesn't mean they're not racist at all. Stop hiding your head in the sand.

 

[Harry Potter Obama]

The poll isn't surprising in the least. Antisemitism never magically disappeared, it just wasn't talked about as openly as it is today in the years following WWII. It didn't go away in the EU, not in America, and especially not in the Middle East. I think most Jews have seen their fair share of it over the course of their lives. It was easy to overlook for most non-Jews, but even as far back as elementary school I faced things like a friend not being allowed to come play at my house because his parents found out my family was Jewish. Another one essentially called me a Christ-killer in 5th grade. There's even a layer of prejudice that's somewhat innocent; like people saying I don't "look Jewish" or saying that I must be smart because "statistically eastern-European Jews are the smartest people in the world". (I haven't heard that before or since but I guess I'm flattered?) I can't say the latter type offends me exactly, but it highlights how I'm still an "other," no matter what I say, do, or even look like.

Also, this is mostly unrelated, but towards the other side of the spectrum: I feel like there's an increasing eagerness among "allies" to call out things as anti-Semitic now, many of which quite frankly aren't. (The @dril (((Keebler elves))) tweet, for instance) I appreciate the thought behind it but it does bother me having people getting offended and outraged on my behalf at innocuous jokes or things like comments decrying Israel's actions. I think it hurts the credibility of actual reports of anti-Semitism in the long run. I'd rather people take complaints of actual anti-semitism seriously rather than assuming it's just another person whining that someone said "Hitlersaurus."

 

[Crocks]

Even though the Israeli government and its supporters paint any and all sympathy for Palestinians as anti-Semitism that doesn't mean that there aren't people on the left that go too far.

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I think this is a bit of an unhelpful assertion. Criticism of Israel isn't a sort of linear progression some of which is acceptable but then is you're too vehement in your criticism it becomes anti-Semitic. In fact, this line of thinking sort of contributes to the view that Israel and Jews are interchangeable entities

The reality is that you can vehemently criticise Israel without being anti-Semitic, and you can just casually deride it in a very anti-Semitic way; it's about how you criticise, not that you do or the extent to which you do.

Please don't tell me that being critical of Israels bullshit is antisemitic now.

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I love the fact you clearly haven't read the article but immediately jump to downplaying antisemitism on the left, as though it can't possibly be *real* antisemitism.

... and it's all due to one politician calling people who want a Israeli ethnostate Zionists at one point.
...
However, weirdly enough the neo-liberal press continually bring up the Zionist quote.

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If you really think it's because he called some Zionists "Zionists" then you've completely misunderstood the issue.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

A country being "erased" and replaced with a better one isn't advocating the removal of their citizenship and ethnic cleansing. In the case of Israel, it's about replacing a state that favors one religion over another. I could go to Israel and become a citizen, with a simple plane ride and be given money by the government to move there. A Christian, Muslim or any other religious identity is not granted the same rights. An Arab in Israel, is not granted the same rights and liberties as a Jew in Israel, including the rights to have their family visit them or marry the people they want.

And yeah, the Palestinians have done some bad things, what they have not done is use white phosphorus on civilian populations, fired depleted uranium bullets that have lead to numerous birth defects and instances of leukemia, or cut off water supply's to population centers with young innocent children. The comparison is not equal at all. The death and casualty tolls alone tell you that. The situation there is terrible, and the disregard for Palestinians is absorbent. On my plane ride back from there I had an Israeli soldier bragging to me on the plane how they'd hit children in Gaza with the butt of their rifles for everyone to hear. No one gives a shit. And the government is actively moving and attracting Jewish migrants and giving them something to lose in the West Bank in order to solidify their majority and make a 2 state solution impossible.

Click to shrink...

The worst is that Israel actively promotes antisemitism in Europe, and thrives off it. They are allies with the European far right, and when there is an antisemitic attack they just use it for their propaganda instead of promoting the wellbeing of European Jews. They are also the source of Middle Eastern antisemitism. It's sickening. European Jews keep being brainwashed Israel that Europe is unsafe while Israel actively works to make it unsafe for them on all fronts. An on top of this, Israel enables the far right to pretend they are not anti-semitic, because hey, they are friends with Israel, the country of the Jews.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

That criticism of Israel or Zionism are included as an example of anti-Semitism makes a mockery of those who experienced actual anti-Semitism.

 

[nuoh_my_god]

...I haven't once said here that Palestine is equally to blame ...

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Except...

...The fact is that the Palestinians are in a horrible position, but equally they do disgraceful, unforgivable things.

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And this is far from the first time you are doing something like this. You constantly post disingenuously, testing how much you can "both sides it" in every single Israel related discussion. It is always the Palestinians for you who have the onus of not-fighting back and being "civilized" in the face of destruction, while the "only democracy in the Middle East" is never fucking held accountable for you, it is never their role as the stronger force to concede first. Cause we can't forget, all their neighbors hate them, not for their actions ofcourse, just for what they are.

When people call you out, you aggressively hide behind "I know Arabs and I worked with Arabs" defense.

And I know that you might reply that this topic has nothing to do with Israel and we are conflating Israel and the Jewish population, but since the survey that is the topic views criticism of Israel as antisemitism, I am not sure that the data gained from it is as accurate as presented, so it merits discussion.

 

[Empress of ice cream]

Thread went as expected. A bunch of non-Jewish people trying to define what anti-semitism is and questioning if the left can even be antisemitic. It happens every single time you bring up the topic of antisemitism in left circles.

 

[Colonel Getafe]

Except...



And this is far from the first time you are doing something like this. You constantly post disingenuously, testing how much you can "both sides it" in every single Israel related discussion. It is always the Palestinians for you who have the onus of not-fighting back and being "civilized" in the face of destruction, while the "only democracy in the Middle East" is never fucking held accountable for you, it is never their role as the stronger force to concede first. Cause we can't forget, all their neighbors hate them, not for their actions ofcourse, just for what they are.

When people call you out, you aggressively hide behind "I know Arabs and I worked with Arabs" defense.

And I know that you might reply that this topic has nothing to do with Israel and we are conflating Israel and the Jewish population, but since the survey that is the topic views criticism of Israel as antisemitism, I am not sure that the data gained from it is as accurate as presented, so it merits discussion.

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Palestinians have done horrible things and there is a huge political problem in Palestine, but at no point have I ever suggested that it's a one sided thing and entirely on them to resolve. The bulk of the concession needs to come from Israel, but suicide bombing, missiles and general terrorism inside and outside of Israel should not be overlooked. It is not right and it isn't justified.

That is my position, I do not think it's a remotely unreasonable one and I'm sure that most of the people staying quiet on the topic for fear of a dogpiling feel the same, including the mods.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

The worst is that Israel actively promotes antisemitism in Europe, and thrives off it. They are allies with the European far right, and when there is an antisemitic attack they just use it for their propaganda instead of promoting the wellbeing of European Jews. They are also the source of Middle Eastern antisemitism. It's sickening. European Jews keep being brainwashed Israel that Europe is unsafe while Israel actively works to make it unsafe for them on all fronts. An on top of this, Israel enables the far right to pretend they are not anti-semitic, because hey, they are friends with Israel, the country of the Jews.

Click to shrink...

What is this?

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

What is this?

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ha...ndones-anti-semitism-and-occupation-1.6249033

Israel's government has been very cozy with the European far right for ages.

 

[siddx]

Another thread about anti semitism, another group of posters falling all over themselves to make the conversation about Israel instead. And people wonder why we dont feel comfortable around non Jewish people sometimes.

 

[Sapiens]

Please don't tell me that being critical of Israels bullshit is antisemitic now.

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According to former Canadian PM Stephen Harper, it is.

 

[nuoh_my_god]

Thread went as expected. A bunch of non-Jewish people trying to define what anti-semitism is and questioning if the left can even be antisemitic. It happens every single time you bring up the topic of antisemitism in left circles.

Click to shrink...

Another thread about antisemitism, another group of posters falling all over themselves to make the conversation about Israel instead. And people wonder why we don't feel comfortable around non Jewish people sometimes.

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When the survey in questions considers any criticism of Israel or support of BDS as antisemitism then we have to discuss it. Otherwise it will always seem that the left is more antisemitic than the right since the left is usually the only side that dares to criticize Israel. The criteria that was applied in this survey make it useless for gauging antisemitism properly.

The left has enough proper antisemites as it is, especialy the banking, NWO conspiracy nuts. But we will not be able to weed them out and deal with them as long as there are critically flawed studies like this one. The ones that paint half of the left spectrum antisemitic for non-antisemitic reasons.

 

[Dr.Phibes]

Sources? Have you followed the anti-semitism row in the UK Labour party this year? A leftist party with a self-admitted problem of anti-semitism. A problem the party still hasn't managed to properly deal with.

I am a socialist - but if you genuinely think that the left (and far left) don't have a lot of racists involved then you are very naive. Racism is prevalent throughout society and whether right, centrist or left there are racists everywhere.

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I've heard about the anti-semitic tendencies in the Labour party but can only speak for the German Left who are definitely not anti-semitic or racist. Unless supporting a two state solution is considered to be anti-semitic and racist of course.

 

[Reverse Giraffe]

Not sure what your point is? People on the left are quite often racist. And quite often not progressive.

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by definition they are not. Perhaps some of them are , but they should not be calling themselves progressives.

 

[Quixzlizx]

If there was a Christian nation overseas that Americans were joining the military of to protect the holy land and shoot brown people, I'd be critical about that as well. I find it absurd to join anther countries military but still claiming citizenship in the US. To be civil all I'll say about your bigot comment is that you can take it elsewhere.

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Assuming that a random Jewish person you meet wants to go off to Israel to shoot brown people is what makes you a bigot.

 

[Deleted member 12224]

by definition they are not. Perhaps some of them are , but they should not be calling themselves progressives.

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No true progressive.

 

[Deleted member 7051]

Another thread about anti semitism, another group of posters falling all over themselves to make the conversation about Israel instead. And people wonder why we dont feel comfortable around non Jewish people sometimes.

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That's kinda how antisemitism has been weaponised, though. The age old adage of how criticising a government is criticising its people has been flipped on its head - and now criticising the Israeli government is criticising Jewish people the world over, something the Israeli government and its allies use aggressively.

Over here in the UK, for example, the Labour Party has been considered antisemite for years because it insisted that the IHRA's definition of antisemitism included a caveat that one can still criticise the state of Israel without being antisemite. Meanwhile the Tories funnel weapons and technology to Israel with lucrative military contracts and paints itself an ally to the Jewish people for no reason other than it supports the Israeli government's hostile takeover of Palestine.

It's why people, as this thread has shown, fall over their feet to assert that they don't hold prejudices against Jewish people but still hold the Israeli government responsible for what it does, because so many people equate the two.

 

[Crocks]

When the definition anti-semitism includes any criticism of Israel

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Who is claiming that?

 

[Deleted member 8860]

Who is claiming that?

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The survey in the OP. According to its methodology, reading an online report critical of Israel's treatment of Palestinians or seeing a pamphlet for BDS makes one a victim of anti-Semitism.

There's no doubt that anti-Semitism is a real problem in Europe and elsewhere, even among "leftists", but this discussion was poisoned from the start by the awful survey.

 

[Colonel Getafe]

That's kinda how antisemitism has been weaponised, though. The age old adage of how criticising a government is criticising its people has been flipped on its head - and now criticising the Israeli government is criticising Jewish people the world over, something the Israeli government and its allies use aggressively.

Over here in the UK, for example, the Labour Party has been considered antisemite for years because it insisted that the IHRA's definition of antisemitism included a caveat that one can still criticise the state of Israel without being antisemite. Meanwhile the Tories funnel weapons and technology to Israel with lucrative military contracts and paints itself an ally to the Jewish people for no reason other than it supports the Israeli government's hostile takeover of Palestine.

It's why people, as this thread has shown, fall over their feet to assert that they don't hold prejudices against Jewish people but still hold the Israeli government responsible for what it does, because so many people equate the two.

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The Labour party is not considered antisemitic because of the IHRA. It is considered antisemitic now because it is filled with the types of people most of you have acknowledged exist in this thread, NWO banker conspiracy theorists and vitriolic 'pro Palestine' abuse of British Jews. The IHRA thing came about because Corbyn was trying to get people let off with a slap on the wrist for a form of racism he was sympathetic to. We had a Jewish leader 3 years ago, whose policy platform was used by Corbyn for his manifesto at the last election, but now hes a neo-liberal centrist. What is it about Jewish Ed Miliband which has caused such a re-rewriting of history among the corbyns? Despite the fact that he was the leader who moved to regonise Palestine...

Mischaracterising it to mitigate it is just enabling racism. Corbyn is exactly the sort of person were dancing around in this thread. Remember how he dropped the press complaint about laying a wreath on the grave of a terrorist who organised the murder and castration of Athletes? That is the problem. That and the Holocaust deniers and racists he considers 'important voices that need to be heard'. Going on press TV to accuse 'the hand of israel' in a false flag attack. Most of you know next to nothing about what Corbyn has actually done because a huge effort has gone into minimising his actions from people who should know better.

The idea that someone can read a comprehensive report like that, listen to the complaints of Jews and then deem it poison is completely baffling and absolutely wouldn't be tolerated here about any other minority discussing how they're discriminated against.

 

[Zappy]

by definition they are not. Perhaps some of them are , but they should not be calling themselves progressives.

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Did you miss the huge racist atrocities committed by the far left, communist Soviet Union as well?

 

[Trojita]

Assuming that a random Jewish person you meet wants to go off to Israel to shoot brown people is what makes you a bigot.

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I never said I assume a random Jewish person I meet wants to go off to Israel to shoot brown people. Mostly all American Jewish young men don't want to, but even calling out a very small minority that wants to is seen as anti-Semitic which is absurd.

Stop putting words into my mouth. That's what a POS does.

 

[Crocks]

The survey in the OP. According to its methodology, reading an online report critical of Israel's treatment of Palestinians or seeing a pamphlet for BDS makes one a victim of anti-Semitism.

There's no doubt that anti-Semitism is a real problem in Europe and elsewhere, even among "leftists", but this discussion was poisoned from the start by the awful survey.

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That's not even remotely an accurate reflection of the report. Firstly, the report doesn't define anti-semitism, the *respondents* do - or Jews, in other words. Typically allowing minorities or oppressed groups to define their own oppression is better than others, as it ensures those who don't actually suffer it don't misdiagnose the problem. It's why we do - or should - allow women to define sexism, Muslims to define Islamaphobia etc. Apparently you don't think this is reasonable for Jews though?

All that said, the vast majority of Jews in the study actually *don't* view criticism of Israel as antisemitic anyway. The majority do view "boycotts of Israel or Israelis" as anti-Semitic, but that's different to BDS. Eitherway, this all represents a tiny proportion of the report, since the top 6 most frequently experienced instances of AS are listed as Israelis being likened to Nazis, Jews wielding too much power, Jews bringing AS on themselves, Jews exploit the Holocaust, the world would be better with Israel and holocaust denial. In fact, criticism of Israel and boycotts don't even make the too 8, the 8th of which is "Never" experienced by 60% of Jews asked.

So quite how you get from this, to "this discussion was poisoned from the start by the awful survey", I have no idea.

 

[Deleted member 8860]

That's not even remotely an accurate reflection of the report. Firstly, the report doesn't define anti-semitism, the *respondents* do - or Jews, in other words. Typically allowing minorities or oppressed groups to define their own oppression is better than others, as it ensures those who don't actually suffer it don't misdiagnose the problem. It's why we do - or should - allow women to define sexism, Muslims to define Islamaphobia etc. Apparently you don't think this is reasonable for Jews though?

All that said, the vast majority of Jews in the study actually *don't* view criticism of Israel as antisemitic anyway. The majority do view "boycotts of Israel or Israelis" as anti-Semitic, but that's different to BDS. Eitherway, this all represents a tiny proportion of the report, since the top 6 most frequently experienced instances of AS are listed as Israelis being likened to Nazis, Jews wielding too much power, Jews bringing AS on themselves, Jews exploit the Holocaust, the world would be better with Israel and holocaust denial. In fact, criticism of Israel and boycotts don't even make the too 8, the 8th of which is "Never" experienced by 60% of Jews asked.

So quite how you get from this, to "this discussion was poisoned from the start by the awful survey", I have no idea.

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If there was a survey for Muslims that included questions on whether any criticism of Saudi Arabia/Iran/Palestinians was Islamophobic, I'm sure there would be non-zero responses of "yes", and I would raise the same concerns about such a study. Likewise for a study on sexism that offered women anti-trans survey options.

 

[Crocks]

If there was a survey on Islamophobia that included questions on whether any criticism of Saudi Arabia/Iran/Palestinians was Islamophobic, I'm sure there would be non-zero responses of "yes", and I would raise the same concerns about such a study. Likewise for a study on sexism that similarly catered to TERFs.

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You'd dismiss everything about it?

 

[Deleted member 8860]

You'd dismiss everything about it?

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I don't "dismiss" anything about this survey except the assertion that any criticism/boycott of Israel is anti-Semitic. Those data points unfortunately skew the top-line numbers somewhat, but the core finding — that anti-Semitism is a major problem in Europe (and elsewhere) — I entirely agree with.

 

[Grouch Douglass]

As others have said, there is definitely some racism among extreme leftists regarding Jewish people.

Also have noticed it against Asians, mainly regarding the discrimination lawsuit against Harvard and the idea they should be lumped in with white people and not considered a minority.