Any other Trekkies bothered by the concept of Section 31?

[Slayven]

For the non nerds Section 31 is a organzation that works indepently from the Federation to maintain the stability of the federation. Bascially space cold war shit. It was created to counter balance the Utopianess of the Federation. You know, everyone loves hot dogs, but no one wants to know how they are made. It feels this runs against Gene's original idea for the series. The Federation has never been project as perfect enough that this level of cynism needs to be injected into it. In the novels they already been taken down by Picard, Bashar, and short Dax.

 

[Deleted member 8860]

Have you watched Disco, Slay?

 

[Slayven]

Have you seen Disco, Slay?

Click to shrink...

Just the first EP, i have a bad problem that if a show isn't on tv, hulu, or netflix i tend to forget about it

 

[BringBackSonics]

Nope I'm fine with section 31, even the most amazing civilizations have had to have a group to deal with problem elements for the greater good of most.

 

[BDS]

I agree that Section 31 feels really cynical and out of sync with the utopian vision of the future that Starfleet is supposed to represent.

 

[Excuse me]

I liked the section 31 episodes in DS9 and don't really have problem with the concept. But at the same time, I can see it's kinda lazy to add this kind of stuff to Trek. Trek is Trek because of those unrealistic ideas of mankind, if you strip that away, then you just have another scifi show... And that doesn't bother me since beggars can't be choosers... Just give me scifi.

 

[Slayven]

I liked the section 31 episodes in DS9 and don't really have problem with the concept. But at the same time, I can see it's kinda lazy to add this kind of stuff to Trek. Trek is Trek because of those unrealistic ideals of mankind, if you strip that away, then you just have another scifi show... And that doesn't bother me since beggars can't be choosers... Just give me scifi.

Click to shrink...

I think the Marquis was perfect way to interject "you don't have all the answers" without outright cynicism

 

[Stormy_One_Kenobi]

Nope I'm fine with section 31, even the most amazing civilizations have had to have a group to deal with problem elements for the greater good of most.

Click to shrink...

This here. It's a nice contrast. There are sometimes things that have to be done whether you like it or not. Having section 31 be the entity that does this for the federation feels more real. A complete utopia, while nice is too unrealistic. Someone has to do the dirty work that, as much as we don't like to admit, needs to be done.

 

[Deleted member 8860]

Just the first EP, i have a bad problem that if a show isn't on tv, hulu, or netflix i tend to forget about it

Click to shrink...

Disco Season 2 goes in heavy on Section 31. Much moreso than the other series combined. It's difficult to have a discussion about 31 when we've all got different information about it.

FWIW, I felt DS9's treatment of Section 31 fit the tone of the show. (See "In the Pale Moonlight".)

 

[Slayven]

This here. It's a nice contrast. There are sometimes things that have to be done whether you like it or not. Having section 31 be the entity that does this for the federation feels more real. A complete utopia, while nice is too unrealistic. Someone has to do the dirty work that, as much as we don't like to admit, needs to be done.

Click to shrink...

Funtional utopia is unreleastic in a universe with omnipotent beings on every other planet?

 

[VeryHighlander]

Honestly, yes. It does bother me. Rubs me the wrong way. I personally find it hard to believe anything like that would be allowed to exist in the same universe as fucking Picard

 

[Excuse me]

This here. It's a nice contrast. There are sometimes things that have to be done whether you like it or not. Having section 31 be the entity that does this for the federation feels more real. A complete utopia, while nice is too unrealistic. Someone has to do the dirty work that, as much as we don't like to admit, needs to be done.

Click to shrink...

I can see this and understand the premesis but it has been done so many times, over and over again. Why mix in old tropes to a concept that didn't rely on them in a first place? The crazy utopian aspiration was kinda big deal in Trek, why not find other ways to show the imperfections of the Federation. Prime directive and as the OP said Maquis were both good ways to mirror this stuff.

edit. and again, it doesn't bother me that much. They are just episodes among others for me but this type of stuff makes Trek less Trek. I can just rewatch B5 or BSG if I want some darker scifi.

 

[MonadL]

Nah it didn't bother me. Without Section 31 I feel like the powers such as the Cardassians and the Romulans would've run roughshod over the Federation eventually.

 

[Elandyll]

It actually made a whole of a lot of aense to me tbh.

Even if your civ is trying to take the high road, it doesn't mean others will do as well.

And if the Tal'Shi Ar (as an example) does super shady shit (they do) like infiltrate/ corrupt or spy on you, then... Not doing the same or at least countering it is basically inviting catastrophy.

In fact, it's pretty genius to have them acting without the knowledge of 99.9% of the Federation, as it's harder for foreign entities to fight something that is basically a shadow of a rumor.
Problem though: lack of accountability and oversight.

 

[Alexandros]

I am of two minds about it. The existence of Section 31 is antithetical to Roddenberry's idea of humanity having evolved past such tactics. On the other hand, Star Trek's universe is full of major powers that wouldn't think twice about using every dirty trick in the book to destroy the Federation. I am ok with it in the same sense that I am ok with Sisko doing all that Pale Moonlight shit: There's a very good reason. DS9 handled that topic in a great way, Discovery fucked everything up by having Section 31 operating openly and running high-profile missions. I do not recommend watching that show.

 

[h1nch]

No I prefer it, because the full-on Space Utopia that TNG tried to cultivate never felt realistic to me.

DS9 is a far better representation of that world than TOS/TNG/Voyager and the section 31 lore helps with that vision.

 

[Htown]

Gene's take led to some boring-ass Trek in the TNG era.

You can have an optimistic future without deciding that everyone is perfect and that in a society of hundreds of billions nobody is going to be up to some shady shit.

 

[Mudcrab]

I mean even without S:31 you still have Sisko benefiting from political assassinations and the like. Examples being both that Romulan Senator and the Klingon leader guy they were on a mission to outright kill.

 

[Sephzilla]

Section 31 is kind of dumb, honestly. It goes heavily against Roddenberry's vision and a lot of the Section 31 based stories were honestly not that great.

 

[Stormy_One_Kenobi]

Funtional utopia is unreleastic in a universe with omnipotent beings on every other planet?

Click to shrink...

For me, yes. It grounds it for me. Having this organization that does the things no one else wants to do makes me feel like the Utopia that they protect is more precious somehow. Hard to explain really. That fact that this can and has back-fired and had this organization go rogue adds a nice flavor to the story to me.

 

[Deleted member 1478]

I may not need a whole series about it but I was fine with it in DS9 and then again in Enterprise. It was a bit too open in Discovery for my liking though.

 

[Tygre]

Imagine how much worse In The Pale Moonlight would be if it was a Section 31 plot, rather than something a Starfleet Officer was having to grapple with directly.

I like the themes Section 31 is intended to explore, how even utopia is imperfect, but feel they can be better explored without resorting to a shadow organisation that effectively revels in taking the moral low-ground.

 

[Breqesk]

Nope I'm fine with section 31, even the most amazing civilizations have had to have a group to deal with problem elements for the greater good of most.

Click to shrink...

See, takes like this are the reason I don't like Section 31. They were meant to illustrate the moral failings of the Federation, not provide fuel for this ends-justify-the-means 'the CIA is good and necessary actually' shite.

I think Section 31 work well in DS9, but were ultimately handled too subtly. Like, they shouldn't have to shout 'these are the bad guys! they're bad! everything they do gets innocent people killed to no good purpose, while actively making the situation worse!' through a bullhorn when their stories get those messages across well enough in subtext--but, as the elements of the Trek fandom who laud Section 31 illustrate, that kind of subtlety just isn't sufficient sometimes.

Discovery's handling of them started out potentially interesting, but had devolved into utter nonsense by the end. All the Control stuff just fuckin sucked.

 

[Euler.L.]

For the non nerds Section 31 is a organzation that works indepently from the Federation to maintain the stability of the federation. Bascially space cold war shit. It was created to counter balance the Utopianess of the Federation. You know, everyone loves hot dogs, but no one wants to know how they are made. It feels this runs against Gene's original idea for the series. The Federation has never been project as perfect enough that this level of cynism needs to be injected into it. In the novels they already been taken down by Picard, Bashar, and short Dax.

Click to shrink...

Federation showed in the series and movies is basically some strange military junta anyway.

 

[Froyo Love]

Section 31, applied anywhere outside DS9, is atrocious. It's a rot on the most interesting, distinctive aspect of Star Trek.

The only reason it worked in DS9 is because the implication seemed to be that Section 31 was more of a splinter cell run by one guy with pull and his cronies, who was deluding himself that he was a "hard man making hard choices". The same guy was the genius who was imprisoned by Bashir because he kept trying to make ominous surprise visits sitting in Bashir's chair.

 

[Deleted member 6173]

I really liked Section 31 in DS9. It went against the ideas of Gene, but I feel like sticking to the ideas of Gene hinders the show.

 

[Deleted member 43872]

I watched DS9 before ever reading any Iain M Banks, but this thread made me realize: Section 31 only exists because some Star Trek writer thought Special Circumstances was dope, right?

 

[Volimar]

It makes a kind of sense that in any organization that large there will be an organization that "makes the tough decisions" but honestly more often than not I think their methods run counter not only to the Federations ideals, but Roddenberry's as well. The ethical dilemmas that Section 31 solves so that the Federation can keep its lofty ideals doesn't help anyone. If there's some terrible threat that the Federation code won't let them deal with that seems like the cost of doing business for having that code. It should then be up to the Federation to decide if the risk of those threats is worth the idealism.

Though it should be noted that even without Section 31, the admirals and captains of starfleet have given and followed orders somewhat counter to Federation ideals. Like when Picard saved Hugh instead of using him to infect the Borg, admiral Nacheyev gives him the direct order that if he is ever presented with an opportunity to wipe out the Borg, he's to take it.

 

[Burt]

It's like if Superman had a secret barn where he interrogated people by beating the shit outta them.

On one hand, it's kind of cloying to think that there could be an interstellar federation of regular ass people that didn't have a branch of Bad Dudes doing Bad Things, but on the other hand, yeah, that's the point of the Federation, that they don't (aren't supposed to) have those things.

I'm more prone to leaning into something like Section 31, but it's about execution, and there's nothing wrong with thinking that it's a violation of what the Federation -- and the show/IP -- are supposed to be about.

 

[DBT85]

Not at all. Looking forward to it immensely.

Genes ideal utopia is a dream that I honestly don't feel can exist without an underbelly. Pretending it doesn't exist a bit exploring themes and actions seems odd to me.

Large nations are subject to all sorts of rules and laws that they routinely break behind their secret services.

As others also said. Every other empire would have something similar, the federation would not survive if they didn't also.

 

[Slayven]

Gene's take led to some boring-ass Trek in the TNG era.

You can have an optimistic future without deciding that everyone is perfect and that in a society of hundreds of billions nobody is going to be up to some shady shit.

Click to shrink...

I think Strek Trek needds to explore outside star fleet more. Remember Starfleet is just one branch of the Federation. That is why DS9 is the best for showing us folks that live in the federation and beside it.

 

[Slayven]

Not at all. Looking forward to it immensely.

Genes ideal utopia is a dream that I honestly don't feel can exist without an underbelly. Pretending it doesn't exist a bit exploring themes and actions seems odd to me.

Large nations are subject to all sorts of rules and laws that they routinely break behind their secret services.

Click to shrink...

It does have an underbelly, The Eugenic Wars, The Bell Riots, Whatever was going on through Cochan's period. The Earth time in star trek is fucking wild.

 

[BossAttack]

In DS9: No.

In Every Other ST Media: Yes.

DS9 handled Section 31 beautifully, which makes sense since they created it. They were extremely restrained in using S31 and actually explored the moral implications of such an organization existing within the Federation. S31 was also far more restrained in their tactics than later hacks would have them do. After DS9, as I could have easily guessed, the allure of a secret spy organization was too much for lesser writers not to be drawn towards. They've proceeded to shoehorn S31 into damn near every piece of Trek and always for the worse. What before was a shadow organization that only acted in extreme cases and actually with restraint, became every other spy organization in fiction and their moral implications are rarely questioned. I hate what S31 has become and wish it was never introduced at this point.

Section 31, applied anywhere outside DS9, is atrocious. It's a rot on the most interesting, distinctive aspect of Star Trek.

The only reason it worked in DS9 is because the implication seemed to be that Section 31 was more of a splinter cell run by one guy with pull and his cronies, who was deluding himself that he was a "hard man making hard choices". The same guy was the genius who was imprisoned by Bashir because he kept trying to make ominous surprise visits sitting in Bashir's chair.

Click to shrink...

Exactly.

 

[StallionDan]

The Discoverse version is terrible. Everyone knows they exist, identifies them by black badges, yet in 100 years nobody knows what S31 is? Nonsense.

 

[Excuse me]

I wait for the day when we find out that Federation is just a lie propped up by authoritarian government.


Also, shouldn't Section 31 very least be open secret? I mean how the hell do you run secret op at level of multiple planets? Don't whistleblowers exist in this future?

 

[Froyo Love]

It makes a kind of sense that in any organization that large there will be an organization that "makes the tough decisions" but honestly more often than not I think their methods run counter not only to the Federations ideals, but Roddenberry's as well. The ethical dilemmas that Section 31 solves so that the Federation can keep its lofty ideals doesn't help anyone. If there's some terrible threat that the Federation code won't let them deal with that seems like the cost of doing business for having that code. It should then be up to the Federation to decide if the risk of those threats is worth the idealism.

Though it should be noted that even without Section 31, the admirals and captains of starfleet have given and followed orders somewhat counter to Federation ideals. Like when Picard saved Hugh instead of using him to infect the Borg, admiral Nacheyev gives him the direct order that if he is ever presented with an opportunity to wipe out the Borg, he's to take it.

Click to shrink...

This is spot on. The idea of Section 31 is well beyond just saying "sometimes we've got to get our hands dirty." It's infantilizing - the Federation proper does not even have the opportunity to reconcile its ideals with their true costs, because theoretically it's all being cleaned up ahead of time for them by a secret cabal of people who know best.

Take any of the classic, morally-driven Star Trek episodes that people love. Now imagine that right after the Enterprise or whoever left, Section 31 came to resolve things to their satisfaction because Picard or whoever just didn't make the hard choice.

Fuck that.

 

[Htown]

The Discoverse version is terrible. Everyone knows they exist, identifies them by black badges, yet in 100 years nobody knows what S31 is? Nonsense.

Click to shrink...

Is Discovery not in the Kelvin timeline?

 

[Volimar]

Is Discovery not in the Kelvin timeline?

Click to shrink...

No, that'd be too easy to explain the inconsistencies, so of course it's in the Prime universe.

 

[5taquitos]

The Culture has Special Circumstances.

All utopias need something working to maintain it.

 

[Htown]

No, that'd be too easy to explain the inconsistencies, so of course it's in the Prime universe.

Click to shrink...

welp

 

[Froyo Love]

guys I know I already said it but I really think it bears repeating: the leader and organizer of this super secret intelligence organization, that y'all think is critically necessary for the continued existence of the Federation, was captured by a civilian because he could not stop himself from doing the Bojack Horseman chair bit

 

[Effect]

This here. It's a nice contrast. There are sometimes things that have to be done whether you like it or not. Having section 31 be the entity that does this for the federation feels more real. A complete utopia, while nice is too unrealistic. Someone has to do the dirty work that, as much as we don't like to admit, needs to be done.

Click to shrink...

Not even just that. What is interesting is the journey to utopia. Then once you get there you have to protect it because once you get to it that doesn't mean others will sit back and let you have it. It's the reason why only TNG, even then the early part of TNG is the only Trek show I think that really pushes the utopia angle. It boxes you in if you only play to that angle. Enterprise, TOS and Discovery are the fight to reach that. DS9 is trying to protect and really stress test if you can really have it.

Section 31 since their introduction has always made sense to me. All the major powers in Star Trek have their deep black ops divisions. Some are more acknowledged then others. The idea that the Federation can exist without their own, doing some really dirty stuff in the dark is not even remotely believable. Some trying and not doing that is great but everyone can't be that way. Or the Federation would have never lasted and would have been ripped apart by outside forces that actively want to undermine it.

 

[KarmaCow]

It really adds nothing to Star Trek that wasn't already explored much better through the Obisidian Order or even the Romulans/Tal Shiar. It'd be one thing if they actually interrogated what it meant to have this organization that undermines the ideals of the humanity in the future to prop up the facade of the Federation but all it got was a stinger at the end of a single episode in DS9. Even since then, Enterprise uses it as fan wank in its season of desperate fan wank and Discovery uses the most surface level implementation of S31 in that it's just Starfleet but with black badges.

 

[Slayven]

Not even just that. What is interesting is the journey to utopia. Then once you get there you have to protect it because once you get to it that doesn't mean others will sit back and let you have it. It's the reason why only TNG, even then the early part of TNG is the only Trek show I think that really pushes the utopia angle. It boxes you in if you only play to that angle. Enterprise, TOS and Discovery are the fight to reach that. DS9 is trying to protect and really stress test if you can really have it.

Section 31 since their introduction has always made sense to me. All the major powers in Star Trek have their deep black ops divisions. Some are more acknowledged then others. The idea that the Federation can exist without their own, doing some really dirty stuff in the dark is not even remotely believable. Some trying and not doing that is great but everyone can't be that way. Or the Federation would have never lasted and would have been ripped apart by outside forces that actively want to undermine it.

Click to shrink...

You are comparing a fascist regime that filters every byte of information to it's citizens(Romulans) and a genocidal failed nation (cardassians).

 

[Effect]

It really adds nothing to Star Trek that wasn't already explored much better through the Obisidian Order or even the Romulans/Tal Shiar. It'd be one thing if they actually interrogated what it meant to have this organization that undermines the ideals of the humanity in the future to prop up the facade of the Federation but all it got was a stinger at the end of a single episode in DS9. Even since then, Enterprise uses it as fan wank in its season of desperate fan wank and Discovery uses the most surface level implementation of S31 in that it's just Starfleet but with black badges.

Click to shrink...

It's very possible the Section 31 show will be what actually addresses what it means to have such a division that goes against the ideals of the Federation. They do toy with it a little in Discovery at points but always hold back.

 

[Effect]

dp

 

[Slayven]

The Culture has Special Circumstances.

All utopias need something working to maintain it.

Click to shrink...

to me that just reeks that the ideals are just progranda and the foundation of it was built on sand. Whne Star trek has shown the characters really believe in the ideas and work to maintain them

 

[NCR Ranger]

As much as I loved DS9's more cynical take on the federation as I got older I feel like Section 31 is where they went too far. Some of that comes from the how the whole "the ends justify the means" argument takes a shit on what Star Trek and the federation is supposed to be. Some of the best moments in Trek are where people grapple with the idea that maintaining those ideals is paramount. The rest comes from that I was pretty sure the allure of a clandestine organization in the federation would be too appealing for future writers to handle correctly. Now we have Disco and my fears came true. Section 31 went from what was probably a small handful of operatives in a shady unofficial, arguably unsanctioned, organization in DS9. To an open full fledged intelligence arm of the federation with their own fleet and probably hundreds or thousands of operatives at the minimum in Disco.

 

[NewDonkStrong]

I like Star Trek best when they allow their human characters to be shitheads instead of dumping everything bad onto stereotypical aliens.

 

[Manmademan]

I am of two minds about it. The existence of Section 31 is antithetical to Roddenberry's idea of humanity having evolved past such tactics. On the other hand, Star Trek's universe is full of major powers that wouldn't think twice about using every dirty trick in the book to destroy the Federation. I am ok with it in the same sense that I am ok with Sisko doing all that Pale Moonlight shit: There's a very good reason. DS9 handled that topic in a great way, Discovery fucked everything up by having Section 31 operating openly and running high-profile missions. I do not recommend watching that show.

Click to shrink...

Discovery Season 2 addressed your complaint and it was made clear why having Section 31 operate that way was a bad idea.