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Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
The start of DS9 was enough, frankly. The Federation was interested in adding to its ranks a culture that was in the middle of a civil war. Sisko was brought in to keep the peace. I think doing something like that still felt mostly like Trek even if it was a case where I felt like Picard was failing to live up to his own sense of duty.

Adding in space CIA was gilding the lily I think. I think DS9 could explore the limits of what the federation and Star Trek's politics were capable of without having to reduce the entire mission of the organization into a pack of lies.

One of the things that made TNG great was episodes like Chain of Command (the Romulan torture episode) and The Wounded (where Picard stops a fellow starfleet officer from attacking a disguised Cardassian war base in order to prevent an all-out war that the Federation was not prepared to fight without grave costs). Stuff like Section 31 kinda shits all over the concept of those episodes and for no real benefit other than to cast aspersions on the founding myths of Starfleet.

There are certainly sci-fi concepts where Section 31 could work, but I don't think Star Trek -- or even DS9 in particular -- was the place for it. I don't always love DS9 for the way it approached Trek, but episodes like For the Uniform and In the Pale Moonlight showed the limitations of Starfleet doctrine without even needing to rely on the existence of Section 31. They're better episodes anyway, because they're more character-driven. Section 31 as a complication in the Starfleet/Federation narrative (that ethical superiority will win out) is less compelling than the twists that were stuff like Q, The Maquis, and especially the god. damn. Borg.
 

KarmaCow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,154
It's very possible the Section 31 show will be what actually addresses what it means to have such a division that goes against the ideals of the Federation. They do toy with it a little in Discovery at points but always hold back.

I'm not holding my breath with the way it was handled in Discovery considering how quickly they worked to humanize and redeem Super Space Hitler for the sake of having her lead the new show.

I like Star Trek best when they allow their human characters to be shitheads instead of dumping everything bad onto stereotypical aliens.

I like that too but there's a huge gap between Barclay struggling with failing in a society where everyone else has self-actualized and what S31 represents.

There are certainly sci-fi concepts where Section 31 could work, but I don't think Star Trek -- or even DS9 in particular -- was the place for it. I don't always love DS9 for the way it approached Trek, but episodes like For the Uniform and In the Pale Moonlight showed the limitations of Starfleet doctrine without even needing to rely on the existence of Section 31. They're better episodes anyway, because they're more character-driven. Section 31 as a complication in the Starfleet/Federation narrative (that ethical superiority will win out) is less compelling than the twists that were stuff like Q, The Maquis, and especially the god. damn. Borg.

The Borg are such a great addition in Star Trek. Cosmic horror by way of tech rather than old gods and a twisted mirror of the Federation even more so than the mirror universe Terran empire. It's a shame that angle as a critique of the Federation isn't not explored more, though it's kinda late to do that with how they have been used since TNG.
 
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The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,086
Section 31 existed before the Federation, got grandfathered in and runs autonomously (haven't seen Disco season 2 yet so some of this may have been retconned). Even if the Federation wanted to disband, outlaw, or abolish it, it really has no power to actually do so. As such, I'm fine with it being a thing. It doesn't harm the idealism of the Federation because while they work to protect it, they're not really a part of it.

Though, again, Discovery may have altered this.
 

funky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,527
It was a OK idea but lazy writers have used it too much since DS9.

Basically kind of like the Borg. It's been done too many times and has been watered down so much.
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,595
DS9 is the only time it was done well

didn't like Enterprise and Discovery's version at all
 

Effect

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,945
It was a OK idea but lazy writers have used it too much since DS9.

Basically kind of like the Borg. It's been done too many times and has been watered down so much.
Actually it hasn't been used much at all. Out of the 700+ episodes of Star Trek that exist Section 31 has only been included in maybe less then 13 and that might be a bit high. Also in Star Trek: Into Darkness. It's use has been actually very limited.
 

Freakzilla

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
5,710
It wasn't just section 31, many of the decisions made by top brass in Starfleet really crushed the Utopian dream. As good as it was, there was still tons of corruption.
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
Section 31 existed before the Federation, got grandfathered in and runs autonomously (haven't seen Disco season 2 yet so some of this may have been retconned). Even if the Federation wanted to disband, outlaw, or abolish it, it really has no power to actually do so. As such, I'm fine with it being a thing. It doesn't harm the idealism of the Federation because while they work to protect it, they're not really a part of it.
In DS9, Section 31 functions with Starfleet's resources. They need Admiral Ross, his ship, Bashir etc. to do their whole Romulan conference operation. They used Starfleet's medical examination of Odo to give him a virus. If Starfleet stops cooperating with Section 31 and treats them as a criminal conspiracy, they're dead in the water.

If there's an Illuminati-style cabal with entirely private resources trying to manipulate the galaxy and essentially force the Federation's policy the way they want it to go... I'm pretty sure there'd be a pretty good Star Trek episode of one of our favorite captains shutting that shit down. Probably a great speech in there about how people of power always dream they have the best solutions if they were able to act without restraint, and how without restraint those solutions always turn to tyranny.

The Federation appears to be a utopia because they have Section 31 to do the dirty work in the shadows.
yeah this is about the most succinct way to express that the Federation can't be utopian and also have Section 31
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,595
Earth is a Utopia but the border planets and Colonies are like the wild west
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,901
Disco season 2 is all about it and it's really good. I won't spoil it but it's definitely worth watching.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,086
In DS9, Section 31 functions with Starfleet's resources. They need Admiral Ross, his ship, Bashir etc. to do their whole Romulan conference operation. They used Starfleet's medical examination of Odo to give him a virus. If Starfleet stops cooperating with Section 31 and treats them as a criminal conspiracy, they're dead in the water.
Having access to Federation resources only requires having the right people in the right positions in on the conspiracy.

If there's an Illuminati-style cabal with entirely private resources trying to manipulate the galaxy and essentially force the Federation's policy the way they want it to go... I'm pretty sure there'd be a pretty good Star Trek episode of one of our favorite captains shutting that shit down. Probably a great speech in there about how people of power always dream they have the best solutions if they were able to act without restraint, and how without restraint those solutions always turn to tyranny.
Sisko's whole feeling on Section 31 was his intending to do just that but having to deal with a war before he could get to it. Which is thematically consistent with Sisko himself.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,404
The English Wilderness
If Section 31 hadn't laid the groundwork for Starfleet moral duplicity, we would never have gotten the best episode of Star Trek.
latest
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
Having access to Federation resources only requires having the right people in the right positions in on the conspiracy.
The success of Starfleet at ending the conspiracy is completely up to the writers. If the Star Trek writers are so poisoned against the idea of utopian fiction that they can't conceive of something like Section 31 being dismantled or just nonexistent, I don't really want them to be writing Star Trek.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
The problem is that narratively it shifts any sort of moral grey away from the federation and towards a cartoonishly evil sub-section.

Reality is that no society is ever gonna exist without someone in it going "why shouldn't we invest in aggresively protecting ourselves from threats?" But that should be addressed in how it's done with whenever Sisko does something questionable.
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
Just the first EP, i have a bad problem that if a show isn't on tv, hulu, or netflix i tend to forget about it

Watch Disco.

Nope I'm fine with section 31, even the most amazing civilizations have had to have a group to deal with problem elements for the greater good of most.

This is my take.

Honestly, yes. It does bother me. Rubs me the wrong way. I personally find it hard to believe anything like that would be allowed to exist in the same universe as fucking Picard

Pike has that discussion.

I may not need a whole series about it but I was fine with it in DS9 and then again in Enterprise. It was a bit too open in Discovery for my liking though.

Was being the operative word.

To an open full fledged intelligence arm of the federation with their own fleet and probably hundreds or thousands of operatives at the minimum in Disco.

Not by the end of S2.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,086
The success of Starfleet at ending the conspiracy is completely up to the writers. If the Star Trek writers are so poisoned against the idea of utopian fiction that they can't conceive of something like Section 31 being dismantled or just nonexistent, I don't really want them to be writing Star Trek.
Until Picard comes out, which I doubt has any plans on touching on Section 31, there is no point in the timeline after DS9 in which they appeared, so I don't know what you're talking about. Unless you mean you want them retconned out of DS9
 

FeliciaFelix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,778
The Federation is a benevolent empire. Empires gonna empire. I think Gene Roddenberry didn't think it through, because the Federation is a happy sci fi version of 1960s Pax America. They didn't think about it that way back in the day, only with the benefit of hindsight does it become obvious.
 
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Slayven

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,025
I am just glad we can have a claim and collected thread of scifi intellectualism, can't get that with propteries involving space wizards. *sips tea*
 

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,474
I was more or less fine with it in DS9, but I really didn't like it being backported into the TOS days. And I hadn't considered the fact that their existence makes all the times we've seen captains have to make moral decisions less significant.
 

KarmaCow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,154
Sure, but it gives added weight to it. A shady admiral is just an individual. And if shady people get to a position of authority in the first place, then your Utopia isn't all it's cracked up to be.

I'd argue the opposite. Without S31, Pale Moonlight works better as an examination of all those other rogue admirals from their perspective. Having a Federation sanctioned black ops team undermines Sisko's break from the Federation principles since it was fundamentally broken anyway.
 
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Slayven

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,025
The Federation is a benevolent empire. Empires gonna empire. I think Gene Roddenberry didn't think it through, because the Federation is a happy sci fi version of 1960s Pax America. They didn't think about it that way back in the day, only with the benefit of hindsight does it become obvious.
Nah, I think he knew what he was doing, he would later go on and explore shady shit with Earth Final Conflict
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
The Federation is a benevolent empire. Empires gonna empire. I think Gene Roddenberry didn't think it through, because the Federation is a happy sci fi version of 1960s Pax America. They didn't think about it that way back in the day, only with the benefit of hindsight does it become obvious.

I think the issue is the insistence on there being no military automatically thrust Starfleet into situations were its gonna be taking on the role of a military Especially with the Enterprise as the flagship.

It happened enough anyway that Rosenberg eventually passed the show writers have since ran with war as being a big part of Star Trek for every show since TNG.

Since DS9 Star Trek is no longer about earnest exploration and diplomacy but passive aggressive gunboat diplomacy.

Ideally there should be a federation military, and they should spend every second off screen as an excuse for why starfleet never has to bother with conflicts. Any weapons the ships have should only ever be used in immediate self-defence.
 

NCR Ranger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,840
Not by the end of S2.

Control slaughtering many of them and the fallout from that allows them to make it fit in with S31 from DS9, but I still think it was stupid and confirmed my biggest worries to build them up to that level to begin with. Toss in how quick the show was to redeem Emperor Georgiou so they can have her in a spinoff doesn't fill me with confidence going forward.
 

onyx

Member
Dec 25, 2017
2,523
No problem with it at all. TNG broke Gene's vision anyway and the series was better for it. It went from "why would god need a space ship" in Trek to the universe has a bunch of god like beings in TNG. Section 31 fit right in with breaking the original vision.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,325
No problem with it at all. TNG broke Gene's vision anyway and the series was better for it. It went from "why would god need a space ship" in Trek to the universe has a bunch of god like beings in TNG. Section 31 fit right in with breaking the original vision.


There were godlike beings in TOS. That doesn't break his vision.
 

Roy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,471
I was more bothered by Roddenberry's original vision where inner conflict was almost non existent. I did love the Episode where that's challenged when Worf wants to suicide because he's paralyzed and Dr Crusher is against it. And the guest doctor also plays way outside the box.

DS9 got it right even before Section 31 was introduced (season 5 or 6?)
 

Bio

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,370
Denver, Colorado
. It feels this runs against Gene's original idea for the series.

It's time that we stopped obsessing about what Gene theoretically would and would not want. Some of his original ideas were responsible for the worst Star Trek that we ever got. For example, during Star Trek the Next Generation he insisted that there is no more interpersonal conflict between people. This resulted in some of the lamest and most boring science fiction we have ever seen; the first two to three seasons of that show are incredibly painful to watch for the most part.

This franchise is now about so much more than him and the vision he had in 1966. Overall, his real vision was about social justice, equity, love and tolerance. Section 31 runs counter to all of those principles and is therefore rightfully portrayed in the franchise as a vile organization. At the very least, this is consistent with the basic premise that Star Trek was created on.
 

Deleted member 16365

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,127
I actually like the thought of Section 31 tbh. The Eloi need their Morlocks and in order for the Federation to have the level of peace everyone enjoys there need to be people willing to get their hands dirty.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,086
I would like Section 31 as a concept, instead of just being fine with them existing, if they were written less like a rogue black ops agency and more like a rogue sleeper cells. That as an organization while their number one priority is the stability of the Federation their number two is the upholding of Federation principles. That they don't exist as a body except when things get messier than they believe the Federation is prepared for like the Dominion War. Instead of the implication that they're a necessity for the Federation to be a Utopia and constantly operating.

Makes their ability to permeate throughout the Federation and Starfleet without Starfleet being aware and the difficulty in disbanding and arresting them far more reasonable.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,815
I am of two minds about it. The existence of Section 31 is antithetical to Roddenberry's idea of humanity having evolved past such tactics. On the other hand, Star Trek's universe is full of major powers that wouldn't think twice about using every dirty trick in the book to destroy the Federation. I am ok with it in the same sense that I am ok with Sisko doing all that Pale Moonlight shit: There's a very good reason. DS9 handled that topic in a great way, Discovery fucked everything up by having Section 31 operating openly and running high-profile missions. I do not recommend watching that show.
That's how I see it as well. It's a terrible organization that runs counter to everything the Federation stands for, but then again, that's the reason it has to stay hidden. It's both a slap in the face of all their ideals, and yet perhaps a necessity in a world with lots of terrible actors that don't care about rules and principles.
The only unrealistic thing is that an organization that is so secretive wouldn't be able to act effectively. How would they get funding, how would they get the authority they need. It's silly and fantastical, but then, so is everything about Star Trek.
 

DBT85

Resident Thread Mechanic
Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,253
Ideally there should be a federation military, and they should spend every second off screen as an excuse for why starfleet never has to bother with conflicts. Any weapons the ships have should only ever be used in immediate self-defence.

I'm not sure the viewing figures would support a show like that.
 

KarmaCow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,154
I was more bothered by Roddenberry's original vision where inner conflict was almost non existent. I did love the Episode where that's challenged when Worf wants to suicide because he's paralyzed and Dr Crusher is against it. And the guest doctor also plays way outside the box.

DS9 got it right even before Section 31 was introduced (season 5 or 6?)

The hardline no conflict at all is wack and produced characters like Wesley but it also lead to things like Troi and Riker's relationship. I can't think of another example of their type relationship in a prominent TV show, even if they did back down near the end.
 

SirFritz

Member
Jan 22, 2018
2,074
I liked it in ds9 but it was only in like 3 eps of that. I hated it a lot in Into Darkness, and the way discovery was heading I don't imagine i'd like it there either (I dropped the show after Season 1).
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,588
It makes sense in DS9 as an internal threat to the utopia. Haven't watched the relevant parts of Discovery so, not sure about that.

Most posters here seem to have forgotten Starfleet already HAS an intelligence service arm. So Section 31 is beyond the "acceptable" Starfleet-approved spying that people like Picard have done. And the admiralty is not, in DS9, exactly cool with it existing - they refuse to comment at all when Sisko asks about it, and Ross lets it handle an op but claims not to be a member - while not aiming to destroy it either. But the admiralty is the Starfleet Admiralty, where the corrupt go.

I'd like to see it as a villain, but not as a generally accepted entity. The lawful good should be targeting it for destruction, and not enabling it.
 
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Slayven

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,025
I just don't like it because it turns Trek into another cynical "humanity left earth but it hasn't grown up" scifi. And writers really would run these concepts into the ground
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,086
I just don't like it because it turns Trek into another cynical "humanity left earth but it hasn't grown up" scifi. And writers really would run these concepts into the ground
Humanity as a whole did grow up. But some folks will never let go of the past and will never mature.

Although, as I said, I'd like Section 31 more, conceptually, if they were written like sleeper agents in a centuries long vestigial contingency than being written as a rogue Black Ops Agency constantly at work in the background under everyone's nose.
 
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Slayven

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,025
Humanity as a whole did grow up. But some folks will never let go of the past and will never mature.

Although, as I said, I'd like Section 31 more, conceptually, if they were written like sleeper agents in a centuries long vestigial contingency than being written as a rogue Black Ops Agency constantly at work in the background under everyone's nose.
I wonder how human centric it will be?
 

PrimeBeef

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,840
No because it makes sense in an otherwise mostly nonsensical utopian world of ST. It would be reasonable for a segment of government to be doing shady shit to keep everything working well.