AOC: "The Democratic Party is not a left party. The Democratic Party is a center, or a center-conservative party"

Raiden · Jan 20, 2020

I agree, from my point of view in socialist Europe.

But then again when you google the country with the highest rate of taxes you end up where I live.

And I'm pretty sure that's not the best way to go about. But free/affordable healthcare should be available everywhere, the rest is debatable.

thefro · Jan 20, 2020

She's right about the Dem party being centrists but the party has moved to the left quite a bit since the days of Bill Clinton being President and doing the "third way" shit.

And the GOP has went fucking crazy in the last 30 years.

Ogodei · Jan 20, 2020

Soph said:
Government intervention in national banks to keep up appearances

No massive infrastructure projects, no Quantitative Easing, no significant financial reform bill, no Cash for Clunkers?

Brian McDoogle · Jan 20, 2020

The austerity

pigeon said:
unarguably true, the democrats sit on the right of the aisle and the republicans sit on the left, not sure what's even worth discussing here

Conversely, using the already established Coordinated Universal Time divide, the USA is on the left and Enlightened Austerity Europe is on the right, meaning even the Republicans are to the left of Europe. Checkmate.

rashbeep · Jan 20, 2020

Deepwater said:
Democrats can't be center left until they fix their tune on American imperialism. Their foreign policy absolutely prevents them from being anywhere near the left.

absolutely and i know posters disagreeing with her plug their ears every time this comes up

Deleted member 176 · Jan 20, 2020

but we have both radical and realist women running for president

loquaciousJenny · Jan 20, 2020

It would be real swell of we could be so perfect as those homogenous white European countries, but I've got this nice thread about Mississippi on hand for why that will never happen

Deleted member 6230 · Jan 20, 2020

Betty said:
How to alienate would be voters 101.

I mean she's probably right, but saying this before election isn't the best idea.

huh isn't this is a doctor king day forum? The average voter is not gonna care about this shit and also there's probably other things being said in this forum about race that'll be even more alienating

Mesoian · Jan 20, 2020

I mean yeah, she's totally right.

Poodlestrike · Jan 20, 2020

thepotatoman said:
The manifesto of the Democratic party isn't a policy pledge of any politician. My understanding is it's writen by some DNC delegates as a small reward for their involvement. No one even knows it exists.

No one runs on it, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer don't look to it when making leadership decisions, the DCCC and DSCC doesn't look to it to make funding decisions.

The comparison to campaign policy pledges doesn't make sense.

The post-convention party manifesto is essentially the President's campaign pledges - their wing has an enormous amount of influence and control over what it contains. And if the nominee wins, they become the party leader, and by and large they set the tune.

Which is... frankly, not a great way of going about doing things, but it's the one we've got, lol.

Kirblar said:
Even if you split it into two axes, social and economic, the Dems are left on both! The Dems are substantively to the left on economics and its unreal that you would not consider this the case. They back redistribution, progressive taxation, went full keyenesian rather than with the austerity crap during the recession, etc. We know what they would do with power because we literally just saw it in 2008-10! Again, socialism/communism are not f'ing prerequisites for being on the "left."

Tbh I would go for 3 axes. Economics, social justice, and centralization and decentralization of political power. Maybe have the dot size change on interest in use of force... but maybe you could fold that in under social justice? Hmm.

But anyway - you're right that there's a lot of really good stuff they want to do, but they didn't go full keynsian during the recession. We had the fiscal cliff, the treatment of the bankers, monetary policy and a ton of other silliness. A lot of that was Republicans limiting what they could achieve, but it's also true that they sometimes set their goals far short of where they could've been.

gutter_trash said:
The Blue Dawgs cocked blocked Obamacare and forced the Dems to water it down,
the knee was taken to appease to Right Wing of the Blue Dogs in the Party

It's not ancient history, it's was two mandates ago.

I'm not even a Lefty-Left guy and I see it with my curious Canadian eyes and ears

The public option, even as initially conceived in the Obamacare bill, was a lot less expansive than what even Biden or Pete is proposing now. A lot's changed in the last decade, not least of which is most all of those blue dogs losing.

Volimar · Jan 20, 2020

Deepwater said:
Democrats can't be center left until they fix their tune on American imperialism. Their foreign policy absolutely prevents them from being anywhere near the left.

Absolutely one of the reasons we need people like AOC and Sanders working inside the democrat party. We need a president to take the lead with an anti-interventionist doctrine.

captmcblack · Jan 20, 2020

Technically correct, the best kind of correct!

I guess then politically speaking, everyone's mostly republican or more republican with a few individuals bold enough to seize the means of production. Surely this concept probably antagonizes or annoys the people needed to advance more of the policies and concepts so that the "real left" can take hold...but most of those people are technically republican or more republican, so a little annoyance won't hurt.

Huncho_Houdini · Jan 20, 2020

They're center and/or center-left,

Deleted member 38573 · Jan 20, 2020

Ortix said:
As a European, you are wrong. The Democrats are more progressive than our centrist parties. On some issues, they are way ahead. I'd ask you not to proclaim our superiority from that high hill you climbed. It's not a good look for the rest of us.

As a European you're wrong... UK LDs are far ahead on climate change and have distanced themselves from austerity politics.... Progressivism 101 ...Biden wants to cut social security, haven't you heard

Sanka · Jan 20, 2020

Democratic party would be similar to the german CDU party of Merkel, which is center right wing. So yea, I agree.

Googleplex · Jan 20, 2020

cnorwood said:
The party that let wall street execs free after crashing the economy arent left wing?

I'm so fucking tired if this argument. THEY DIDN'T BRAKE ANY LAWS! Unless your all for Obama tossing people in jail regardless of the law?

plagiarize · Jan 20, 2020

gutter_trash said:
Compared to Canada, the Democrats are Centre-Right
Compared to European countries, the Democrats are a vanilla establishment Right Wing Party.

Heck, Germany's establishment Right Wing Party is More LEFT than the Democrats

You guys need to get Medicare For All to be proven to be at minimum to be CENTRE-LEFT
And public mandated Maternity leave

Fail to do that, the Dems are just a corporatist Centre-Right Party

And I am not even a Lefty-Left guy, I am actually (internationally) boring Centre-Left

It's all a matter of framing, so I don't think she's wrong, but I also don't think this is something you can easily measure.

What a lot of people do, is measure the policies the Democrats are proposing in a bubble. IE, what are they advocating for? In many cases, yes. These ideas would be seen as center, or center right, but it feels to me like this is usually done without looking at context.

Proposing something like Obamacare (IE, you have to have health insurance and there is a tax penalty if you don't) in the US, represents a clear move to the *left* from what's currently in place, where as in the UK, say, it would be a massive step to the right compared to what they have now.

Personally, I don't think you can ignore this when judging policies. The democrats are proposing things which represent a clear shift to the left, but in many cases that is a starting point, not the end goal. Most of the healthcare proposals, again, are with an end goal of something more like one of the various systems found in Europe, not with an end goal of mandatory health insurance.

AOC is hugely important in that conversation, as she is focused on that end goal, and thankfully isn't going anyway. I am grateful we have people that will keep fighting for that even as we make whatever steps further left we can, based on what elements of government are controlled by who.

Without Justice Democrats trying to pull the party as far left as possible, I wonder where the central democrat would be, given you have the Republicans trying to push everything as far right as possible, and while I don't think it's smart to go *directly* to M4A personally, I'm very glad there are people who will continue to advocate for it until something like it hopefully happens some day.

Ichthyosaurus · Jan 20, 2020

Seattle6418 said:
The fact that Democrats are not full on fascists like the Republicans do not make them leftists.

I mean, other than pro choice and gay rights, what do the Democrats have going for them in regards to left wing politics? Specifically on economic issues, i would love to hear the case for them. Every time i think about economic policy and democrats i think of Paul Krugman, a somewhat cool guy but definitely not a lefty.

Leftists don't occupy the entire spectrum of left politics in any country in the world, including America. You need to do more research into understanding the party's stances, too. As well as the fact they're a coalition, so sometimes there is conflict between the more conservative groups and the liberal groups over subjects like Healthcare.

Autodidact · Jan 20, 2020

coconut milk said:
.Biden wants to cut social security, haven't you heard

Sorry, I was told in this very thread that what you want to do doesn't count, only what you've done. Democrats, including Biden, have never voted to cut Social Security.

Deleted member 10629 · Jan 20, 2020

Mekanos said:
If this country is so fragile that a Democrat can't criticize the party for not being left-wing enough that we automatically lose the election we are capital F fucked.

For real. The fact that more people are worried that her words might hurt someone's feelings than make those people actually use their fucking brains is why the US is a shitshow

Tukarrs · Jan 20, 2020

Big_Blue said:
People are blatantly ignoring this.

Even though individual members are to the left of center, the party runs on least common denominator and will not advance things unless a Joe Manchin agrees. This makes policy decisions about as left as Joe Manchin, aka center right.

Deleted member 4783 · Jan 20, 2020

Kirblar said:
Even if you split it into two axes, social and economic, the Dems are left on both! The Dems are substantively to the left on economics and its unreal that you would not consider this the case. They back redistribution, progressive taxation, went full keyenesian rather than with the austerity crap during the recession, etc. We know what they would do with power because we literally just saw it in 2008-10! Again, socialism/communism are not f'ing prerequisites for being on the "left."

Keynesian is left now? What? What's next, neoliberals are left, too??

Delphine · Jan 20, 2020

Ortix said:
As a European, you are wrong. The Democrats are more progressive than our centrist parties. On some issues, they are way ahead. I'd ask you not to proclaim our superiority from that high hill you climbed. It's not a good look for the rest of us.

Many European countries, minus yours, then.
Centrist party in my country very much looks like US Dems to me. Although it's been a while since socialist parties have truly been leftist either, they've been majorly corrupted by US-imported neoliberal capitalism for decades, which is why we're seeing our social rights we've fought hardly for decades ago, being destroyed bit by bit every year. But yeah, at least we still have a true left, as communist parties are a thing that exist in my country and they have a strong political history, they are at the source of many social progresses.

Kirblar · Jan 20, 2020

Poodlestrike said:
The post-convention party manifesto is essentially the President's campaign pledges - their wing has an enormous amount of influence and control over what it contains. And if the nominee wins, they become the party leader, and by and large they set the tune.

Which is... frankly, not a great way of going about doing things, but it's the one we've got, lol.

Tbh I would go for 3 axes. Economics, social justice, and centralization and decentralization of political power. Maybe have the dot size change on interest in use of force... but maybe you could fold that in under social justice? Hmm.

But anyway - you're right that there's a lot of really good stuff they want to do, but they didn't go full keynsian during the recession. We had the fiscal cliff, the treatment of the bankers, monetary policy and a ton of other silliness. A lot of that was Republicans limiting what they could achieve, but it's also true that they sometimes set their goals far short of where they could've been.

The public option, even as initially conceived in the Obamacare bill, was a lot less expansive than what even Biden or Pete is proposing now. A lot's changed in the last decade, not least of which is most all of those blue dogs losing.

That centralization/concentration of power axis isn't a real one. It's just the one that educators put there in place of the social axis because they'd raise an unholy shitstorm from parents if they did.

Betty · Jan 20, 2020

infinite said:
huh isn't this is a doctor king day forum? The average voter is not gonna care about this shit and also there's probably other things being said in this forum about race that'll be even more alienating

You're right, and if the idea of a more left leaning Democratic party can galvanise the votes needed to win, then i'm all for it.

But i'd rather the Democrats win and then start going further left, rather than go hard left and lose because I don't know if there is enough of a voterbase for that to happen right now.

But yeah, this isn't probably going to impact things so far out.

Kyra · Jan 20, 2020

Love you AOC but you are not correct. Dems are center left and centrists at worst. Outliers are just that when it comes to the ideals of the platform especially in more recent years. Playing politics will get you attached to some nasty bills.

Deleted member 4783 · Jan 20, 2020

Mekanos said:
If this country is so fragile that a Democrat can't criticize the party for not being left-wing enough that we automatically lose the election we are capital F fucked.

This so fucking much

BADMAN · Jan 20, 2020

Excuse me mods, Why was the poll removed?

Surfinn · Jan 20, 2020

..where'd the poll go?

Kusagari · Jan 20, 2020

She's 100% right with her comments at the end about the majority of the party thinking you "can capitalism your way out of poverty" and it's why the poor continue to suffer in this country.

Brian McDoogle · Jan 20, 2020

plagiarize said:
Without Justice Democrats trying to pull the party as far left as possible, I wonder where the central democrat would be, given you have the Republicans trying to push everything as far right as possible, and while I don't think it's smart to go *directly* to M4A personally, I'm very glad there are people who will continue to advocate for it until something like it hopefully happens some day.

You can look back to the ancient time that was 3 years ago before the Justice Democrats existed to see not only where the Democratic Party was, but where they were moving.

TheHunter · Jan 20, 2020

Artdayne said:
I was telling TheHunter about this, AOC appears to agree with me.

And you're both still wrong.

Sean · Jan 20, 2020

gutter_trash said:
from a Canadian point of view; the US's Democratic Party is a Centre-RIGHT party

it's not even Centre; it's plain CENTRE-RIGHT

Republicans are FAR-RIGHT to EXTREME-FAR-RIGHT

100% agree with this. It's been plain as day for quite a while.

BADMAN · Jan 20, 2020

The poll before it was removed, for those of you just joining us.

Autodidact · Jan 20, 2020

BADMAN said:
Excuse me mods, Why was the poll removed?

Because you knew what you were doing and are about as subtle as a baseball bat to the head.

Dyle · Jan 20, 2020

The party is center left relative to how other governments actually function but distinctly center, bordering on center right in terms of philosophy

Deleted member 721 · Jan 20, 2020

I will only talk about the knowledge about politics about my country, but the democratic party i believe would be on the center-right in brazil too.

jviggy43 · Jan 20, 2020

Lmao at that poll removal.

Reeks · Jan 20, 2020

Poodlestrike said:
The conservative parties in a lot of countries are in favor of outright ethnostates, they just also want healthcare. That feels... well, left of the GOP, I suppose, but also pretty damn far right of the Dems, lol.

That's true. But considering we enslave/imprison the highest percentage of people, people who are disproportionally minorities, then disallow voting and social services after the fact, and are literally building a wall to keep people out, what we say and what we do aren't always congruent. And we are planned right as far as gun laws and healthcare go for sure.

plagiarize · Jan 20, 2020

Brian McDoogle said:
You can look back to the ancient time that was 3 years ago before the Justice Democrats existed to see not only where the Democratic Party was, but where they were moving.

That's PRE Trump too, it could have accelerated.

BADMAN · Jan 20, 2020

Autodidact said:
Because you knew what you were doing and are about as subtle as a baseball bat to the head.

Asking people their opinion on the matter who didn't want to post? I'm sorry that it made you look like you're in the minority in opinion but it was a pretty straightforward and relevant poll.

Deleted member 6230 · Jan 20, 2020

Betty said:
You're right, and if the idea of a more left leaning Democratic party can galvanise the votes needed to win, then i'm all for it.

But i'd rather the Democrats win and then start going further left, rather than go hard left and lose because I don't know if there is enough of a voterbase for that to happen right now.

But yeah, this isn't probably going to impact things so far out.

This won't impact shit cause only nerds like us give a shit

Fularu · Jan 20, 2020

Big_Blue said:
People are blatantly ignoring this.

Of course, because it's garbage

Kirblar · Jan 20, 2020

Rushersauce said:
Keynesian is left now? What? What's next, neoliberals are left, too??

Given that nearly all of Europe went full austerity and fucked themselves over because they weren't willing to do basic keynesian government spending and redistribution, it very much is!

Believing in regulated capitalism and the philosophies of people like Keynes/Smith is in no way incompatible with being on the political left.

DeusOcha · Jan 20, 2020

She's right. As long as universal healthcare remains not a thing in the US she will be correct.

Soph · Jan 20, 2020

Ogodei said:
No massive infrastructure projects, no Quantitative Easing, no significant financial reform bill, no Cash for Clunkers?

Not that I'm aware of, should be noted I'm not a savant on national politics

Deleted member 176 · Jan 20, 2020

BADMAN said:
Excuse me mods, Why was the poll removed?

Thor 2 was leeching votes from progressives

clear centrist bias

Snake · Jan 20, 2020

The Democratic Party is a combination center-left and centrist party, owing largely to the United States' system of government and the political coalitions that have evolved accordingly. In the past, they also had a large subgroup of conservative democrats (center-right), but those have become an increasingly endangered species.

They are not a purely center-left party, partly since they can't form a government with merely 35% of the vote as can be done in many parliamentary systems across the world. Nor are they "actually a right-wing party." It is exactly what it is, a coalition to achieve above or around 50% of the vote. That includes a considerable amount of moderate votes, since, out of America's three political categories; conservatives, moderates, and liberals; liberals are the smallest group. We consequently do not have the privilege to pretend we can purge moderates from the Democratic Party and govern as an unapologetic left-leaning party.

We are, however, still very far behind the curve. At the bare minimum, we have a problem where certain increasingly liberal regions still have too moderate representation, and certain increasingly moderate areas still have far too conservative representation. And if some people want to try and push us further to the left, that's not at all a bad thing.

Deleted member 1476 · Jan 20, 2020

Why is the poll gone?

Ichthyosaurus · Jan 20, 2020

Brian McDoogle said:
You can look back to the ancient time that was 3 years ago before the Justice Democrats existed to see not only where the Democratic Party was, but where they were moving.

The Justice Dems are not where the party is moving toward, they didn't have that kind of impact.

AOC: "The Democratic Party is not a left party. The Democratic Party is a center, or a center-conservative party"

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