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Is AOC right?

  • I am American, and I agree.

    Votes: 880 38.5%
  • I am American, and I disagree.

    Votes: 119 5.2%
  • I am American, and I think it's complicated.

    Votes: 240 10.5%
  • I am not American, and I agree.

    Votes: 918 40.2%
  • I am not American, and I disagree.

    Votes: 52 2.3%
  • I am not American, and I think it's complicated.

    Votes: 77 3.4%

  • Total voters
    2,286

Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,489


Official Staff Communication
All right, let's try this again. This is a topic that merits attention, but it needs to happen without snide or hostile remarks, pre-emptive or otherwise, and without glib polls with troll options. We are rebooting this with a new, proper poll, and we lifted some of the previous bans to give this a second chance. These were the result of us moving hastily to try and stay on top of things, and we apologize to anybody who feels unfairly treated. That said, any sort of deliberate provocation going forward will be met with harsher bans.
 

Gwenpoolshark

Member
Jan 5, 2018
4,109
The Pool
I think there are many members of the democratic party who, if they were honest with themselves, would agree in private to this, and in fact think that this is a good thing.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
The Democratic Party is institutonally, materially, and politically constrained from making more than slow and piecemeal progress. It deserves credit for when it does good things and criticism for when it does bad things or fails to go far enough. Individuals within it may be left-inclined; individual policies may be left-inclined; but without mass democratic control and the ability to push for radical changes to the underlying economic base, I do not believe it can be called fully "left wing".

That's my nuanced version.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,498
Yep. The american democratic party isn't left, and Sanders isn't a socialist, in spite of what he may call himself.

(*from southeastern europe)
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,120
Limburg
American here, she isn't wrong. But the answer is that we need to change that and make the dems a broad left including the true "left". It is the only possible vehicle currently
 

Commedieu

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
15,025
Correct.

Two parties is a disaster. The left only notices minorities when it comes voting time. The right never does.

Millions are fucked over daily due to this.
 

Azuran

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,563
She's completely right. The fact that we have dinosaurs in the party that are against social benefits because they get in the way of their corporate overlords invalidates them.

The so called "left-wing" party not fully supporting issues like socialized healthcare and strong unions is a complete joke.
 

BobLoblaw

This Guy Helps
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,288
I think her and Bernie need to go ahead and start an official "Democratic Socialist" party. The general public needs to understand the distinctions. The Democratic party is home to progressive realists. What does that mean? It means that most Democrats understand that it takes time to push the country forward. It's not something to be done in a few years. AOC and Bernie seem like they would rather make huge, life-altering changes to policies over a period of months if they could. Some people may be for that, but the vast majority of the country isn't.
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
Nah.

"Democrats would be conservatives in (insert European country here)" is a cliche. Maybe it was onto something in the past but hasn't really been true recently.

The party has moved significantly left since Obama's presidency in ways that often go unappreciated. I'm not even just talking social policy, a public option was a progressive fairytale ten years ago and now virtually every Democrat supports it.


I think her and Bernie need to go ahead and start an official "Democratic Socialist" party. The general public needs to understand the distinctions. The Democratic party is home to progressive realists. What does that mean? It means that most Democrats understand that it takes time to push the country forward. It's not something to be done in a few years. AOC and Bernie seem like they would rather make huge, life-altering changes to policies over a period of months if they could. Some people may be for that, but the vast majority of the country isn't.
The leftists splitting off into a third party and dividing the base so Republicans can win everywhere?
 

AYF 001

Member
Oct 28, 2017
828
I'm gonna copy and paste my interpretation from the last thread:


The ACA was based on pre-existing Republican healthcare models. But I think Obama's point is that the GOP has gone so far to the right, with Dems on the back foot for the better part of 50 years, that the conditions in the US for any sort of socialist or leftist platform in the party were virtually impossible.

Now we're seeing a lot of changes being brought on rapidly these past few years, but due to the way elections are inherently rigged towards rural racist white people, liberals have to carefully optimize increasing power while still moving the country's policies leftwards. The chances of an AOC-type getting elected WV are virtually nil, and the combined backlash from conservatives and turning off swing voters could make the state even more red than before.

For the time being, we need to demonstrate the validity of our positions and the practicality of our proposals. Making the current set of demsoc ideas more mainstream and explaining how they build on the past will likely be easier than saying to the current bulk of the party how everything you worked for is bad and your experience is unnecessary is a poor move if you want to get support for your plans.
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,116
Toronto
I think her and Bernie need to go ahead and start an official "Democratic Socialist" party. The general public needs to understand the distinctions. The Democratic party is home to progressive realists. What does that mean? It means that most Democrats understand that it takes time to push the country forward. It's not something to be done in a few years. AOC and Bernie seem like they would rather make huge, life-altering changes to policies over a period of months if they could. Some people may be for that, but the vast majority of the country isn't.
Splitting the vote would allow the Republicans to win every future election, unfortunately. American conservatives tend to move in total lockstep.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,927
This conversation only gets brought up with respect to Europe, but what of the rest of the world?

As for the topic itself, these types of conversations always ignore the structural differences in the governments between different nations. And, it tends to simplify things into an economic or social dichotomy when they actually intertwine, especially in the United States, and how things tend to get a little bit heated, suffice to say, in European countries when the tiniest demographic changes can cause massive social upheaval.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
I think her and Bernie need to go ahead and start an official "Democratic Socialist" party. The general public needs to understand the distinctions. The Democratic party is home to progressive realists. What does that mean? It means that most Democrats understand that it takes time to push the country forward. It's not something to be done in a few years. AOC and Bernie seem like they would rather make huge, life-altering changes to policies over a period of months if they could. Some people may be for that, but the vast majority of the country isn't.
This would push the Democratic Party even further right and wouldn't help AOC accomplish her goals. It would be bad for everyone except people who support right-wing policies.

This is what people accused Sanders voters of trying to do in 2016, despite evidence showing that wasn't really the case.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
The Democratic Party is institutonally, materially, and politically constrained from making more than slow and piecemeal progress. It deserves credit for when it does good things and criticism for when it does bad things or fails to go far enough. Individuals within it may be left-inclined; individual policies may be left-inclined; but without mass democratic control and the ability to push for radical changes to the underlying economic base, I do not believe it can be called fully "left wing".

That's my nuanced version.
A fair take.

I still disagree with it, but a better critique than others have offered.
 

gutter_trash

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
17,124
Montreal
the problem with the way Americans talk about Left and Right is like saying Blue vs Red.

It's way more variant then that.

(Germany) Angela Merkel's establishment Right Wing party is still more to the Left than the entire Democratic Party in the US

Democrats may be Left of the Republicans but on the scale they are Centre-Right ... Centre-Centre-Right
 

Cookie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,258
What about their vice president, who would presumably be running?

A VP hasn't won the presidency in 30 years. Unless it's someone truly spectacular they probably won't be the person necessary. And if they were truly spectacular they'd probably be in the race right now.

I think she still won't even be 35

So young, she's a damn inspiration

She's 35 just before 2024 Election Day. Like a month if I remember correctly.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
I'm gonna copy and paste my interpretation from the last thread:


The ACA was based on pre-existing Republican healthcare models. But I think Obama's point is that the GOP has gone so far to the right, with Dems on the back foot for the better part of 50 years, that the conditions in the US for any sort of socialist or leftist platform in the party were virtually impossible.

Now we're seeing a lot of changes being brought on rapidly these past few years, but due to the way elections are inherently rigged towards rural racist white people, liberals have to carefully optimize increasing power while still moving the country's policies leftwards. The chances of an AOC-type getting elected WV are virtually nil, and the combined backlash from conservatives and turning off swing voters could make the state even more red than before.

For the time being, we need to demonstrate the validity of our positions and the practicality of our proposals. Making the current set of demsoc ideas more mainstream and explaining how they build on the past will likely be easier than saying to the current bulk of the party how everything you worked for is bad and your experience is unnecessary is a poor move if you want to get support for your plans.
People need to understand why America's "left" is on it's back foot. And why there are so many "leftists" who ignore social aspect of policy.

Racism. The dems sided with African Americans in the 60s and have been paying for it for 50 years.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
I think her and Bernie need to go ahead and start an official "Democratic Socialist" party. The general public needs to understand the distinctions. The Democratic party is home to progressive realists. What does that mean? It means that most Democrats understand that it takes time to push the country forward. It's not something to be done in a few years. AOC and Bernie seem like they would rather make huge, life-altering changes to policies over a period of months if they could. Some people may be for that, but the vast majority of the country isn't.

It won't work in a FPTP system.
 

Lastbroadcast

Member
Jul 6, 2018
1,938
Sydney, Australia
To clarify some thoughts I was posting about in the other thread -

Before the 20th century, most western nations had a political divide between conservatives and liberals. But from the 1920s onwards ,in Europe, Australia, New Zeraland and the UK, Labour-based, social democratic or socialist based parties became the dominant left party. They believed strongly in the expansion of state economic power to solve social problems.

While the democratic party today is a broad church, many American liberals in the centre are fundamentally capitalists in nature. Many support the protection of individual rights and freedoms (like anti-racism or women's rights), but in other areas do not support an expansion of the role of the state, especially not government takeovers of certain sectors of the economy (like health care). Someone like Cory Booker, for example, wouldn't fit neatly into either major party here in Australia. His views on social issues would put him on the centre-left, but his background as an investment banker would make him a better fit as a centrist member of our right wing party. We would call him a "small-l liberal".

Apart from a few decades, like the 1930s when capitalism was facing collapse, the democratic party has not supported the abolition or state takeover of large sections of the economy. This is because the American democratic party does not have its roots in socialism - but rather in liberalism. It isn't a reactionary conservative party, but nor is it a party that has its roots in seeking to expand the role of the state - it is a social liberal party that had its origins in trade, and the advancement of individual liberty (rather than collective uplift). Some social democrats like AOC have joined it because in a two party there is no other choice.

True believers in socialism are much more likely to want to expand the role of government. That's why, when push comes to shove, American liberals always shirk the task of delivering the expansion of government required - because many don't believe in it. Socialists like Bernie Sanders do.

AOC would be a fairly normal member of the Australian Labor party in Australia because she supports an expansion of the state in the economy. But in America her economic views about collectivism place her on the far-left.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
the problem with the way Americans talk about Left and Right is like saying Blue vs Red.

It's way more variant then that.

(Germany) Angela Merkel's establishment Right Wing party is still more to the Left than the entire Democratic Party in the US

Democrats may be Left of the Republicans but on the scale they are Centre-Right ... Centre-Centre-Right
And then you've got bad takes like this.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
To clarify some thoughts I was posting about in the other thread -

Before the 20th century, most western nations had a political divide between conservatives and liberals. But from the 1920s onwards ,in Europe, Australia, New Zeraland and the UK, Labour-based, social democratic or socialist based parties became the dominant left party. They believed strongly in the expansion of state economic power to solve social problems.

While the democratic party today is a broad church, many American liberals in the centre are fundamentally capitalists in nature. Many support the protection of individual rights and freedoms (like anti-racism or women's rights), but in other areas do not support an expansion of the role of the state, especially not government takeovers of certain sectors of the economy (like health care). Someone like Cory Booker, for example, wouldn't fit neatly into either major party here in Australia. His views on social issues would put him on the centre-left, but his background as an investment banker would make him a better fit as a centrist member of our right wing party. We would call him a "small-l liberal".

Apart from a few decades, like the 1930s when capitalism was facing collapse, the democratic party has not supported the abolition or state takeover of large sections of the economy. This is because the American democratic party does not have its roots in socialism - but rather in liberalism. It isn't a reactionary conservative party, but nor is it a party that has its roots in seeking to expand the role of the state - it is a social liberal party that had its origins in trade, and the advancement of individual liberty (rather than collective uplift). Some social democrats like AOC have joined it because in a two party there is no other choice.

True believers in socialism are much more likely to want to expand the role of government. That's why, when push comes to shove, American liberals always shirk the task of delivering the expansion of government required - because many don't believe in it. Socialists like Bernie Sanders do.

AOC would be a fairly normal member of the Australian Labor party in Australia because she supports an expansion of the state in the economy. But in America her economic views about collectivism place her on the far-left.
And this is a fine take.

Not being socialist doesn't mean you aren't left.

Call us "Progressives" if you will.
 

BobLoblaw

This Guy Helps
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,288
The leftists splitting off into a third party and dividing the base so Republicans can win everywhere?

Splitting the vote would allow the Republicans to win every future election, unfortunately. American conservatives tend to move in total lockstep.
If they aren't happy with the Democratic party, I'd rather they split off and do their own thing. If they can't acknowledge that pushing the country forward takes times and may involve policies they don't like, then criticizing the party by calling it "center-right" isn't going to suddenly make Democrats say, "Fuck. She's right. Socialism all the way!!!" Obama did things extremely well. If he ran on things like DACA or gay marriage in his first term, there's no way he would've been elected. Over time, he laid a pretty good foundation as to why those things were important and then did his best to push them forward.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,095
Sydney
It's definitely a weird party in world history, even if you don't want to call it a right wing or centre party.

Most major parties that represent the left most viable option in comparable nations had their origin come out of the nineteenth century labour movements and so were also a strong vehicle for unionism, socialism and the aspirations of the working class.

The Democrats had some of this but have had a stranger history because for a long time they were split between urban working class voters in the North and the agrarian slave economies of the South.

It did then hew a little more closely to your traditional working class left wing party under FDR, but after the GOP enacted the Southern Strategy and the Democrats took a belting under Reagan and Nixon it turned more centrist in response under Clinton, to where we are today, which is people like AOC and Bernie Sanders trying to push it back left.

It's kind of why although I'm inclined to agree with AOC I think her comments miss what a strange party it is with all sorts of grab bag positions given it's history.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
I am an American, and I agree. I think it's difficult for many Dem voters to reconcile this with their self-image, right? That's why the topic is so volatile. It's a hard admission to make. Many regular posters on Etc Era are not progressive. They are center-right on economic policy and left on social issues.

We need at least 3 parties, maybe 4 (social right/economic left feels dirty). The two party system leaves socialists and socdem/demsoc politicians in the same party with Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden, if they want to have any chance of holding office. Discussion on Era reflects this divide. We... really don't share much aside from social liberalism.

The Democratic Party is institutonally, materially, and politically constrained from making more than slow and piecemeal progress. It deserves credit for when it does good things and criticism for when it does bad things or fails to go far enough. Individuals within it may be left-inclined; individual policies may be left-inclined; but without mass democratic control and the ability to push for radical changes to the underlying economic base, I do not believe it can be called fully "left wing".

That's my nuanced version.

This is a good explanation.
 

Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant
The main thing here is that AoC is being somewhat pedantic. Left and Right are relative to a country's context, and the only case where I would consider a country to have no left or right wing would be where there is a political force artificially restricting who can participate (like how Iran has no Left movement because the Greens are legally suppressed).

I appreciate the work she does pushing the party to the left, but I think her words are unhelpful in this case because it doesn't stand up for the people who are doing great work in the name of the party. It's great to want more and it's what we need to be striving for in this country today, but we should not belittle the work of those who have done the best they can with what they have, to reduce their work by blanket-labeling it as "center-right."
 

Sei

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,707
LA
All the push back from establishment democrats against mildly progressive policies, tells me this is true.

The policies of Warren/Sanders/AOC, would be considered the norm/center in many other similarly democratic countries.
 

CrabDust

Member
Nov 16, 2017
1,257
She's right that we cannot capitalism our way to income equality, but she's very wrong with the labels and characterization of the parties. There's a demonstrable gulf between US Democrats and US Conservatives that goes so far beyond "M4A can't get a floor vote."

I think she's peddling a false narrative and playing to the crowd, but at the same time I'm glad she's pushing the party to more progressive policy positions within an already left of center party.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
All the push back from establishment democrats against mildly progressive policies, tells me this is true.

The policies of Warren/Sanders/AOC, would be considered the norm/center in many other similarly democratic countries.
I mean, Warren doesn't get that much push back.

Obama was to the right of the current dem party and still liked her ideas!
 

gutter_trash

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
17,124
Montreal
And then you've got bad takes like this.
but you always reply to people in simplistic terms and reasons of what is Left and what is Right

there are gradients.

it's not because the US only has TWO major parties that one is Right and the other is Left.

the US is a Right Wing country.

Republicans Establishment = Far-Right
Democrat Establishment = Centre-Right

I love AOC, she is Left for real, but the rest of the party isn't at all like her
 

BobLoblaw

This Guy Helps
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,288
The main thing here is that AoC is being somewhat pedantic. Left and Right are relative to a country's context, and the only case where I would consider a country to have no left or right wing would be where there is a political force artificially restricting who can participate (like how Iran has no Left movement because the Greens are legally suppressed).

I appreciate the work she does pushing the party to the left, but I think her words are unhelpful in this case because it doesn't stand up for the people who are doing great work in the name of the party. It's great to want more and it's what we need to be striving for in this country today, but we should not belittle the work of those who have done the best they can with what they have, to reduce their work by blanket-labeling it as "center-right."
Very well said.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
but you always reply to people in simplistic terms and reasons of what is Left and what is Right

there are gradients.

it's not because the US only has TWO major parties that one is Right and the other is Left.

the US is a Right Wing country.

Republicans Establishment = Far-Right
Democrat Establishment = Centre-Right

I love AOC, she is Left for real, but the rest of the party isn't at all like her
Merkel's party pushed Austerity during the recession.

Obama and the "center right" Dems pumped money into it.

And you know, Merkel and the immigrant issues.

And actually, the entire population is left leaning. Liberal (American not world definition)
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,786
Dual citizen but mostly Canadian here. Yes this always seemed obvious to me. Republicans and the Conservative party in America are particularly more right winged then in the rest of the developed world so anything left of them is going to be called leftist even if they turn out to be much more centrist than anything else.
The leftists splitting off into a third party and dividing the base so Republicans can win everywhere?
Is there any actual basis for this? Here in Canada we have a right winged party, a centrist party, a left winged one and a really left winged one and have managed to avoid this theoretical future where Conservatives always win due to split bases.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
the problem with the way Americans talk about Left and Right is like saying Blue vs Red.

It's way more variant then that.

(Germany) Angela Merkel's establishment Right Wing party is still more to the Left than the entire Democratic Party in the US

Democrats may be Left of the Republicans but on the scale they are Centre-Right ... Centre-Centre-Right

Which angle are you arguing from, this seems more like an international perspective rather than an America centric perspective.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
Is there any actual basis for this? Here in Canada we have a right winged party, a centrist party, a left winged one and a really left winged one and have managed to avoid this theoretical future where Conservatives always win due to split bases.
Yes. If you added the already small third party Green votes from 2016 to Hillary Clinton's total, for example, she would have won the election. It would only get worse if actually popular politicians joined in.

aka the US isn't Canada, we have different electoral systems