Aonuma says that many of the younger staff on BOTW2 are playing and inspired by RDR2

hussien-11

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,514
Jordan
BOTW felt more like they scattered things all around the map, while RDR2 structured its game map in a cohesive way. It's great if you want to promote exploration, but it's not particularly impressive in a design perspective.
Then maybe you didn't really notice how smart the design was. how every region in the map had its distinctive creatures/fruits/collectibles, how it had its own unique geography and weather like it is a part of gigantic world instead of a single region, how it was designed to make you notice interesting things in the horizon and to guide you (subtly) to explore the whole world, and how it kept surprising you with unexpected moments.

it scattered things in a structured way, it wasn't random at all. the design was certainly impressive and was widely praised by journalists and game designers alike when the game launched.

Rockstar’s RDR2 does all of these things better than any of the games you’ve mentioned except choice based narrative. My only issue is the damn input lag.
No it doesn't. this is what i dislike about Rockstar fans.

I doubt they even have the resources to attempt a Rockstar open world.
They don't need the resources to make a Rockstar open world because they do their own things and they are already better than Rockstar in many ways.

but does Rockstar have the talent to make brilliant gameplay and environmental puzzles liks Zelda ? can they ever design something like beasts/shrines especially how they where structured and how you could move the entire place and change the place structure?

why should Zelda team attempt to leave their strong points? not Rockstar, not anyone else can beat Zelda in those areas.
 

Namorange

The Fallen
Oct 31, 2017
2,515
The 97 metacritic backs it up. What are you talking about? It's not opinion it's fact

Just like LOTR, I don't like the movies but I can't deny they are great just not for me.

Some people have such a childish mindset. Realize something is good but not for you. Smh.
A review is literally an opinion. Metacritic is a collection of reviews (opinions).
The 97 metacritic backs it up. What are you talking about? It's not opinion it's fact

Just like LOTR, I don't like the movies but I can't deny they are great just not for me.

Some people have such a childish mindset. Start realizing something is good but not for you. Smh.
Metacritic is a collection of reviews. Since when are reviews not opinions?

And what are you talking about? I literally never said either game isn’t for me. In fact, they’re two of my favorite games of this generation. I am simply saying that people can’t say things like ‘RDR2 is the best open world because it has the most engaging systems’ or ‘BotW is the best open world because it encourages exploration.’ You can’t say this without asserting that this is your opinion and not a fact. What I think makes the best open world game doesn’t mean it is what the next person thinks.

It’s probably better to ask for clarification before calling someone childish but that’s just my opinion but maybe, based on your logic, you’ll think it’s fact and not continue to do so.
 

Joeyro

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,218
They don't need the resources to make a Rockstar open world because they do their own things and they are already better than Rockstar in many ways.

but does Rockstar have the talent to make brilliant gameplay and environmental puzzles liks Zelda ? can they ever design something like beasts/shrines especially how they where structured and how you could move the entire place and change the place structure?

why should Zelda team attempt to leave their strong points? not Rockstar, not anyone else can beat Zelda in those areas.
I meant how dynamic the world is random event wise. How some random events and stranger missions have a sort of continuation which makes the world feel alive. Lets not even get started about the gameplay in Rockstar games when 95% of everything is scripted in some way or another.
 

Hiraeth

Member
Mar 16, 2018
155
London, UK
In terms of actual depth of detail in the open world, and making it feel like a living, populated space - there's a lot open world game devs can learn from Rockstar and RDR2.
 

stan_marsh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,404
Canada
And what are you talking about? I literally never said either game isn’t for me. In fact, they’re two of my favorite games of this generation. I am simply saying that people can’t say things like ‘RDR2 is the best open world because it has the most engaging systems’ or ‘BotW is the best open world because it encourages exploration.’ You can’t say this without asserting that this is your opinion and not a fact
Yes they can, because they are two of the best open world games ever made and people don't have to start every sentence with "this is just my opinion."
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,062
Then maybe you didn't really notice how smart the design was. how every region in the map had its distinctive creatures/fruits/collectibles, how it had its own unique geography and weather like it is a part of gigantic world instead of a single region, how it was designed to make you notice interesting things in the horizon and to guide you (subtly) to explore the whole world, and how it kept surprising you with unexpected moments.

it scattered things in a structured way, it wasn't random at all. the design was certainly impressive and was widely praised by journalists and game designers alike when the game launched.
I mean, regarding the bolded, it's also in RDR2 yet you were quick to dismiss its open world design.

Regarding points of interest, I persist in saying that they were scattered and that the world was mostly barren in between. Having the ability to navigate and interact that world in many different ways was more impressive than what was actually in it.
 

hussien-11

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,514
Jordan
ITT: People who have literally no idea how game development works or how dev teams draw inspiration.

Zelda team is not attempting to leave their strong points. Please tell us these insider scoops you have.
Do you?

I know, this was not my intention from the discussion and nothing is wrong with inspiring from others : )

You don’t need to be a Rockstar fan to appreciate their incredible work. RDR2 wasn’t even my game of the year in 2018.
And i do? I was tasked of reviewing it and RDR2 had a 95 score from me for its outstanding achievements. it was added to both Metacritic and Opencritic.
however, it wasn't a game without flaws, and it had areas that could clearly improve in future installments. it had areas some developers surpassed in a big way (like the mission structure).

I meant how dynamic the world is random event wise. How some random events and stranger missions have a sort of continuation which makes the world feel alive. Lets not even get started about the gameplay in Rockstar games when 95% of everything is scripted in some way or another.
This was a fantastic idea in the game, but after some time those events became repetitive. but they are a great idea and will be a very important part of open world games in the future.
but other games focus on other things. RDR2 was designed this way to enhance the narrative, while a game like BotW doesn't have any real focus on narrative. on the other way, it does things other games don't and can't do.

Regarding points of interest, I persist in saying that they were scattered and that the world was mostly barren in between. Having the ability to navigate and interact that world in many different ways was more impressive than what was actually in it.
the world was full of things to discover and do. there was a huge number of mini games, and treasures were very well hidden that you had to pull some of them from rivers. there was no area in the game without something hidden waiting for you to discover, or an enemy camp to conquer, or a surprise like a maze in the sky! the world is built as a playground, as a place to explore and discover.

but if you are waiting for an npc every 2 minutes or prefer a world with a more focus on narrative, then maybe you won't look at it the same way i and others did. that is ok.

I mean, regarding the bolded, it's also in RDR2 yet you were quick to dismiss its open world design.
I spent more than 100h in it, if it wasn't for time constraints i would've spent more :P
maybe you are right, i like it overall though, but i honestly prefer the atmosphere of Velen/Skelige in TW3 or the sense of adventure and beauty in BotW.
 

Pancracio17

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,558
I can see why. RDR2s open world is very dynamic and its NPC events would feel right at home in the BotW formula.
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,062
the world was full of things to discover and do. there was a huge number of mini games, and treasures were very well hidden that you had to pull some of them from rivers. there was no area in the game without something hidden waiting for you to discover, or an enemy camp to conquer, or a surprise like a maze in the sky! the world is built as a playground, as a place to explore and discover.

but if you are waiting for an npc every 2 minutes or prefer a world with a more focus on narrative, then maybe you won't look at it the same way i and others did. that is ok.
This is maybe where we don't really understand each others. For me, hidden treasure aren't really apart of what I consider open world design. When I say that BOTW is a bit barren in its world I'm talking about the fields for exemple or the desert. There's things in it, but at the end of the day it's a bit empty save from a couple of shrines for exemple.

In RDR2, I feel like the map and what's in it was more carefully crafted. There's a logic in where the train is placed, where the bayou is, the different way the city are placed based on their geography and temperature as well as how people's behavior change in relation to that. That's why I consider RDR2 to have a better open world than BOTW, but I can perfectly understand why one would prefer BOTW over it.
 

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,836
London
And i do? I was tasked of reviewing it and RDR2 had a 95 score from me for its outstanding achievements. it was added to both Metacritic and Opencritic.
however, it wasn't a game without flaws, and it had areas that could clearly improve in future installments. it had areas some developers surpassed in a big way (like the mission structure).
You gave it a 95 despite the flaws. That’s not a score you reserve for games that are only/mainly good at realism.
 

Bakercat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,583
'merica
Hopefully this means a better story and characters. The major thing I hated about BotW was the lack of story and character growth.
 

Cordelia

Member
Jan 25, 2019
109
ITT people can't have bad opinion for RDR2 because it has high metacritic score.

I love the open world.

I absolutely hate the gameplay.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,659
So this is really bad...

We can't let Breath of the Wild 2 be touched by Western taint.

Breath of the Wild created the open world genre. It pioneered towers. It does not learn. It only teaches!

Gaming was dead before Breath of the Wild came along.
 

Raoh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,342
literally every mundane thing botw did it better and without wasting 15 seconds of my life whenn i had to pick something from the floor
 

LegendofLex

Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,823
This is maybe where we don't really understand each others. For me, hidden treasure aren't really apart of what I consider open world design. When I say that BOTW is a bit barren in its world I'm talking about the fields for exemple or the desert. There's things in it, but at the end of the day it's a bit empty save from a couple of shrines for exemple.

In RDR2, I feel like the map and what's in it was more carefully crafted. There's a logic in where the train is placed, where the bayou is, the different way the city are placed based on their geography and temperature as well as how people's behavior change in relation to that. That's why I consider RDR2 to have a better open world than BOTW, but I can perfectly understand why one would prefer BOTW over it.
I mean, there's logic like this in Zelda's world design, too, mostly revolving around a couple things:

- What you can see from any given point in the world based on the surrounding topography
- Spacing things out just so to create challenges for players who stumble into regions (like extreme temperature zones) without proper preparation (imagine trying to explore Hebra or the desert in extreme weather with only a single food buff)
- Creating settings and layouts that add flavor to otherwise repetitive enemy encounters
 

hussien-11

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,514
Jordan
You gave it a 95 despite the flaws. That’s not a score you reserve for games that are only/mainly good at realism.
I never said it was only good at realism. it is a great game overall, i even liked how believable it was with its animation despite a lot of people hating how slow it is :P
what I'm saying is, it is not better than every open world game "in every area" like a lot of Rockstar fans claims or something impossible to reach.

i can say the same about BotW despite it being a 10/10 game in my book. i didn't like the weapons durability system at all, but its not enough to take away from all the incredible things the game achieved.

ITT people can't have bad opinion for RDR2 because it has high metacritic score.
Maybe i shouldn't say this, but Metacritic scores are... i don't know.
they have "weight", the more famous you are, the more weight your score have.

lets say Gamespot gave a game 9/10
and 5 other unknown websites rated the game 7/10
the overall score will still be closer to the score assigned by Gamespot (for example)

is this really good? no. reviews in my humble opinion should be treated more equally. it is not a collection of reviews in its current state as much as it is a collection of scores given by famous publications.

This is maybe where we don't really understand each others. For me, hidden treasure aren't really apart of what I consider open world design. When I say that BOTW is a bit barren in its world I'm talking about the fields for exemple or the desert. There's things in it, but at the end of the day it's a bit empty save from a couple of shrines for exemple.
We are finding a common ground now though :P
in the end of the day i mentioned those because they are what really fills the world of this game (with other things of course). the philosophy behind the games serves its focus on gameplay and exploration, the design of the world serves this purpose. the world subtly guides you to discover its wonders because this is the experience that those developers wanted to make.
but i understand that not anyone will prefer this direction/philosophy in designing a game.
though this is why i said there is no open world game out there that beat all the others in every area. a lot of great things out there with unique approached and different strengths ^^
 

Leviathan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
905
RDR2 wasn't my GotY, but as an open world game it was revolutionary. It was a great title almost everywhere but this forum.

This is a nice statement and an encouraging sign that they're looking to new, unique places for inspiration. I hope they borrow some of that narrative focus, player/NPC interaction, and depth.
Hopefully this means a better story and characters. The major thing I hated about BotW was the lack of story and character growth.
Yeah, sadly all the interesting plot/character content was locked in flashbacks to the past, and Link as the protagonist was a big limitation on the RP part of the RPG.

I'm of the opinion that an open-world game can have a silent/neutral protagonist or a visually established, set protagonist, but that you lose something when you end up with both.
 
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zakatana

Member
Jan 10, 2018
3,082
Tokyo
There's a lot of good things to lift from RDR2. The game played like ass and just isn't much fun for me, but it's impressively lively and consistent.
I hope we'll get big cities, tons of NPCs, an interesting story, all while keeping the strong points of BOTW.
 

SmokedSalmon

Member
Apr 1, 2019
306
Skyrim isn't really my jam, so when Aonuma talked about it for the fist BotW I was concerned. That said, I really ended up liking BotW anyways. I learned that inspiration doesn't imply directly copying a formula, not in the slightest. My personal bias against a certain game does not have any effect on how these developers interpret elements from different games. I don't think there is any reason to be worried about this if you didn't like RDR2.
 

Cordelia

Member
Jan 25, 2019
109
Maybe i shouldn't say this, but Metacritic scores are... i don't know.
they have "weight", the more famous you are, the more weight your score have.

lets say Gamespot gave a game 9/10
and 5 other unknown websites rated the game 7/10
the overall score will still be closer to the score assigned by Gamespot (for example)

is this really good? no. reviews in my humble opinion should be treated more equally. it is not a collection of reviews in its current state as much as it is a collection of scores given by famous publications.
I know, that's why I never took metascore seriously.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,311
That’s great to hear. Red Dead 2’s problem for me was the gameplay, which I don’t worry about coming from the Zelda team.

Everything else about that game was really, really good. Great game to draw inspiration from.
 

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,836
London
I never said it was only good at realism. it is a great game overall, i even liked how believable it was with its animation despite a lot of people hating how slow it is :P
what I'm saying is, it is not better than every open world game "in every area" like a lot of Rockstar fans claims or something impossible to reach.
I didn't say the bolded, and I agree with you.

i can say the same about BotW despite it being a 10/10 game in my book. i didn't like the weapons durability system at all, but its not enough to take away from all the incredible things the game achieved.
Again, I'm in complete agreement. The same applies to RDR2, imo.
 

Revven

Member
Oct 27, 2017
735
This is just like when people overreacted about Aonuma saying he played Skyrim and was taking inspiration from that game for BotW.

Except in this case it's a worse reaction because people actually dislike a lot of what RDR2 did but just because the Zelda team is taking inspiration from it does not mean they are copying everything it did.
 

Kamaros

Member
Aug 29, 2018
446
Jesus... they're like polar opposites games in their open world take. And BoTW is far, far superior, gameplay, navegation, discoverability, interaction and everything else, basically.

Hope is more a inspiration and nothing else.
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,552
This thread boils down to "I didn't like RDR2, so them being inspired by it means BotW2 will be like RDR2 now". I doubt they even have the resources to attempt a Rockstar open world.
You don't need much resources to produce shitty combat and mission design. The only thing that RDR2 has going for it is visuals and over all production values.
 

Edgar

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,374
You don't need much resources to produce shitty combat and mission design. The only thing that RDR2 has going for it is visuals and over all production values.
The only thing that rdr 2 has going for is characters, music, writing, performances, slow methodical light cowboy sim and visuals.
 

impact

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,380
Tampa
Jesus... they're like polar opposites games in their open world take. And BoTW is far, far superior, gameplay, navegation, discoverability, interaction and everything else, basically.

Hope is more a inspiration and nothing else.
You don't need much resources to produce shitty combat and mission design. The only thing that RDR2 has going for it is visuals and over all production values.
Sounds like most people bitching have never played Red Dead 2.

Yes kiddos, all it has going for it is GRAFFIX!!!
 

Joeyro

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,218
You don't need much resources to produce shitty combat and mission design. The only thing that RDR2 has going for it is visuals and over all production values.
I clearly said resources for Rockstar style open world which is a monumental achievement for the gaming industry. I'm sorry but i refuse to believe that you ever played RDR2 or played more than an hour or two with this kind of hyperbole.
 

Kamaros

Member
Aug 29, 2018
446
Sounds like most people bitching have never played Red Dead 2.

Yes kiddos, all it has going for it is GRAFFIX!!!
So, even if i finished the game with almost 100% i cannot criticize it?

Seems to me you are the one bitching over someone's else opinion about a game on the internet lol
 

Robdraggoo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,455
Maybe this just means instead of your weapons breaking you j6st have to clean them from time to time. I could be cool with that.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,925
Looking forward to having horse tripping for a more immersive realistic riding experience in botw. Horses with self preservation instinct are too unrealistic.
 
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Chopchop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,367
If they looked at Skyrim and produced BotW, then I don't think there's anything to worry about.

In this case, I trust that when they say "draw inspiration", they really do mean just drawing inspiration, and not copying another game beat for beat without thinking.
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,552
Sounds like most people bitching have never played Red Dead 2.

Yes kiddos, all it has going for it is GRAFFIX!!!
I did. Calling people kiddos while bringing the epitome of a childish argument is kinda hilarious though, gotta give you that.
The only thing that rdr 2 has going for is characters, music, writing, performances, slow methodical light cowboy sim and visuals.
The characters were good, yes. Music was stellar, but so was BotW's. NOthing to get inspired for here. Writing was meh, not even sure what you mean by performances. Of the voice actors? That's just budget and time related. You think Aounma goes "woah, so that's good voice acting? Man, if I knew there was good voice acting I wouldn't have brought bad voiceacting to BotW."


I don't want Zelda to be slow and methodical, or "immersive" (or whatever RDR wants to call what it failed at)
 

Edgar

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,374
I did. Calling people kiddos while bringing the epitome of a childish argument is kinda hilarious though, gotta give you that.

The characters were good, yes. Music was stellar, but so was BotW's. NOthing to get inspired for here. Writing was meh, not even sure what you mean by performances. Of the voice actors? That's just budget and time related. You think Aounma goes "woah, so that's good voice acting? Man, if I knew there was good voice acting I wouldn't have brought bad voiceacting to BotW."


I don't want Zelda to be slow and methodical, or "immersive" (or whatever RDR wants to call what it failed at)
Youre precious all things zelda will be just fine , no need to be upset when other devs see quality and get inspired.
 

Cordy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,182
Imagine Link riding in on Epona and forming a great bond with him and then the next thing you know you run into a Hyrulian that starts a separate side mission.

Imagine BotW actually having a deep revolving story.

Can't wait!!
 

Jiminy

Avenger
Mar 29, 2018
1,884
BOTW felt more like they scattered things all around the map, while RDR2 structured its game map in a cohesive way. It's great if you want to promote exploration, but it's not particularly impressive in a design perspective.
They're both phenomenal, and they're both going for totally different things. Nothing in Breath of the Wild was "scattered".

You probably just didn't realise they were naturally leading you about by the nose all the time.