Aonuma says that many of the younger staff on BOTW2 are playing and inspired by RDR2

Equanimity · Jun 12, 2019

hussien-11 said:
Open World is where the best developers in the world compete right now. there is no one that is better than every other developer in every area.

No, that's not true at all. For example, Naughty Dog hasn't made an open world game since Jak 3.

hussien-11 said:
Rockstar are the most realistic.
Zelda team are the best in terms of gameplay/adventure and map design.
CDPR are the best in terms of narrative and storytelling.
Bethesda's games have more freedom/choice than any other.

Rockstar's RDR2 does all of these things better than any of the games you've mentioned except choice based narrative. My only issue is the damn input lag.

Mass_Pincup · Jun 12, 2019

Aniki said:
It is impressive from a design standpoint. It's an open world but nothing about it felt random or without a purpose. The world felt as if it was desinged like a level, always guiding the players eyes to something new.

RDR2 and BotW tried to achieve different things with their open worlds and both achieved what they wanted.

BOTW suceeded precisly because it wasn't designed as a level though. You had an open ended approach to the open world, much like Skyrim, which allowed you to do what you want when you want to. The achievement was in bridging the gap between "side quest" and "main quest" while maximizing player agency regarding missions, story and gameplay.

Outside of the castle and the start of the game, you were not guided much.

Joeyro · Jun 12, 2019

This thread boils down to "I didn't like RDR2, so them being inspired by it means BotW2 will be like RDR2 now". I doubt they even have the resources to attempt a Rockstar open world.

Aniki · Jun 12, 2019

Mass_Pincup said:
BOTW suceeded precisly because it wasn't designed as a level though. You had an open ended approach to the open world, much like Skyrim, which allowed you to do what you want when you want to. The achievement was in bridging the gap between "side quest" and "main quest" while maximizing player agency regarding missions, story and gameplay.

Outside of the castle and the start of the game, you were not guided much.

Yes, but the open world was designed in a way to always point the player to a point of interest without relying on quest markers.

stan_marsh · Jun 12, 2019

Namorange said:
People have no idea what an opinion is, lol.

There's nothing to back up RDR2 is the best open-world or BotW or any game for that matter. Just because you prefer it, you can't assert anything other than that preference.

People are taking this too seriously. It really doesn't mean anything yet.

The 97 metacritic backs it up. What are you talking about? It's not opinion it's fact

Just like LOTR, I don't like the movies but I can't deny they are great just not for me.

Some people have such a childish mindset. Start realizing something is good but not for you. Smh.

hussien-11 · Jun 12, 2019

Mass_Pincup said:
BOTW felt more like they scattered things all around the map, while RDR2 structured its game map in a cohesive way. It's great if you want to promote exploration, but it's not particularly impressive in a design perspective.

Then maybe you didn't really notice how smart the design was. how every region in the map had its distinctive creatures/fruits/collectibles, how it had its own unique geography and weather like it is a part of gigantic world instead of a single region, how it was designed to make you notice interesting things in the horizon and to guide you (subtly) to explore the whole world, and how it kept surprising you with unexpected moments.

it scattered things in a structured way, it wasn't random at all. the design was certainly impressive and was widely praised by journalists and game designers alike when the game launched.

Equanimity said:
Rockstar's RDR2 does all of these things better than any of the games you've mentioned except choice based narrative. My only issue is the damn input lag.

No it doesn't. this is what i dislike about Rockstar fans.

Joeyro said:
I doubt they even have the resources to attempt a Rockstar open world.

They don't need the resources to make a Rockstar open world because they do their own things and they are already better than Rockstar in many ways.

but does Rockstar have the talent to make brilliant gameplay and environmental puzzles liks Zelda ? can they ever design something like beasts/shrines especially how they where structured and how you could move the entire place and change the place structure?

why should Zelda team attempt to leave their strong points? not Rockstar, not anyone else can beat Zelda in those areas.

stan_marsh · Jun 12, 2019

hussien-11 said:
why should Zelda team attempt to leave their strong points? not Rockstar, not anyone else can beat Zelda in those areas.

ITT: People who have literally no idea how game development works or how dev teams draw inspiration.

Zelda team is not attempting to leave their strong points. Please tell us these insider scoops you have.

Equanimity · Jun 12, 2019

hussien-11 said:
No it doesn't. this is what i dislike about Rockstar fans.

You don't need to be a Rockstar fan to appreciate their incredible work. RDR2 wasn't even my game of the year in 2018.

EJS · Jun 12, 2019

stan_marsh said:
The 97 metacritic backs it up. What are you talking about? It's not opinion it's fact

Just like LOTR, I don't like the movies but I can't deny they are great just not for me.

Some people have such a childish mindset. Realize something is good but not for you. Smh.

A review is literally an opinion. Metacritic is a collection of reviews (opinions).

stan_marsh said:
The 97 metacritic backs it up. What are you talking about? It's not opinion it's fact

Just like LOTR, I don't like the movies but I can't deny they are great just not for me.

Some people have such a childish mindset. Start realizing something is good but not for you. Smh.

Metacritic is a collection of reviews. Since when are reviews not opinions?

And what are you talking about? I literally never said either game isn't for me. In fact, they're two of my favorite games of this generation. I am simply saying that people can't say things like 'RDR2 is the best open world because it has the most engaging systems' or 'BotW is the best open world because it encourages exploration.' You can't say this without asserting that this is your opinion and not a fact. What I think makes the best open world game doesn't mean it is what the next person thinks.

It's probably better to ask for clarification before calling someone childish but that's just my opinion but maybe, based on your logic, you'll think it's fact and not continue to do so.

Joeyro · Jun 12, 2019

hussien-11 said:
They don't need the resources to make a Rockstar open world because they do their own things and they are already better than Rockstar in many ways.

but does Rockstar have the talent to make brilliant gameplay and environmental puzzles liks Zelda ? can they ever design something like beasts/shrines especially how they where structured and how you could move the entire place and change the place structure?

why should Zelda team attempt to leave their strong points? not Rockstar, not anyone else can beat Zelda in those areas.

I meant how dynamic the world is random event wise. How some random events and stranger missions have a sort of continuation which makes the world feel alive. Lets not even get started about the gameplay in Rockstar games when 95% of everything is scripted in some way or another.

Shadow-Link · Jun 12, 2019

Oh no

Hiraeth · Jun 12, 2019

In terms of actual depth of detail in the open world, and making it feel like a living, populated space - there's a lot open world game devs can learn from Rockstar and RDR2.

stan_marsh · Jun 12, 2019

Namorange said:
And what are you talking about? I literally never said either game isn't for me. In fact, they're two of my favorite games of this generation. I am simply saying that people can't say things like 'RDR2 is the best open world because it has the most engaging systems' or 'BotW is the best open world because it encourages exploration.' You can't say this without asserting that this is your opinion and not a fact

Yes they can, because they are two of the best open world games ever made and people don't have to start every sentence with "this is just my opinion."

Mass_Pincup · Jun 12, 2019

hussien-11 said:
Then maybe you didn't really notice how smart the design was. how every region in the map had its distinctive creatures/fruits/collectibles, how it had its own unique geography and weather like it is a part of gigantic world instead of a single region, how it was designed to make you notice interesting things in the horizon and to guide you (subtly) to explore the whole world, and how it kept surprising you with unexpected moments.

it scattered things in a structured way, it wasn't random at all. the design was certainly impressive and was widely praised by journalists and game designers alike when the game launched.

I mean, regarding the bolded, it's also in RDR2 yet you were quick to dismiss its open world design.

Regarding points of interest, I persist in saying that they were scattered and that the world was mostly barren in between. Having the ability to navigate and interact that world in many different ways was more impressive than what was actually in it.

hussien-11 · Jun 12, 2019

stan_marsh said:
ITT: People who have literally no idea how game development works or how dev teams draw inspiration.

Zelda team is not attempting to leave their strong points. Please tell us these insider scoops you have.

Do you?

I know, this was not my intention from the discussion and nothing is wrong with inspiring from others : )

Equanimity said:
You don't need to be a Rockstar fan to appreciate their incredible work. RDR2 wasn't even my game of the year in 2018.

And i do? I was tasked of reviewing it and RDR2 had a 95 score from me for its outstanding achievements. it was added to both Metacritic and Opencritic.
however, it wasn't a game without flaws, and it had areas that could clearly improve in future installments. it had areas some developers surpassed in a big way (like the mission structure).

Joeyro said:
I meant how dynamic the world is random event wise. How some random events and stranger missions have a sort of continuation which makes the world feel alive. Lets not even get started about the gameplay in Rockstar games when 95% of everything is scripted in some way or another.

This was a fantastic idea in the game, but after some time those events became repetitive. but they are a great idea and will be a very important part of open world games in the future.
but other games focus on other things. RDR2 was designed this way to enhance the narrative, while a game like BotW doesn't have any real focus on narrative. on the other way, it does things other games don't and can't do.

Mass_Pincup said:
Regarding points of interest, I persist in saying that they were scattered and that the world was mostly barren in between. Having the ability to navigate and interact that world in many different ways was more impressive than what was actually in it.

the world was full of things to discover and do. there was a huge number of mini games, and treasures were very well hidden that you had to pull some of them from rivers. there was no area in the game without something hidden waiting for you to discover, or an enemy camp to conquer, or a surprise like a maze in the sky! the world is built as a playground, as a place to explore and discover.

but if you are waiting for an npc every 2 minutes or prefer a world with a more focus on narrative, then maybe you won't look at it the same way i and others did. that is ok.

Mass_Pincup said:
I mean, regarding the bolded, it's also in RDR2 yet you were quick to dismiss its open world design.

I spent more than 100h in it, if it wasn't for time constraints i would've spent more :P
maybe you are right, i like it overall though, but i honestly prefer the atmosphere of Velen/Skelige in TW3 or the sense of adventure and beauty in BotW.

Pancracio17 · Jun 12, 2019

I can see why. RDR2s open world is very dynamic and its NPC events would feel right at home in the BotW formula.

Tonypark · Jun 12, 2019

Oh god... no...
It can be a good thing but please don't slow it down.

RedAhmed · Jun 12, 2019

I hope they don't do anything with this, this is not good news to me.

Mass_Pincup · Jun 12, 2019

hussien-11 said:
the world was full of things to discover and do. there was a huge number of mini games, and treasures were very well hidden that you had to pull some of them from rivers. there was no area in the game without something hidden waiting for you to discover, or an enemy camp to conquer, or a surprise like a maze in the sky! the world is built as a playground, as a place to explore and discover.

but if you are waiting for an npc every 2 minutes or prefer a world with a more focus on narrative, then maybe you won't look at it the same way i and others did. that is ok.

This is maybe where we don't really understand each others. For me, hidden treasure aren't really apart of what I consider open world design. When I say that BOTW is a bit barren in its world I'm talking about the fields for exemple or the desert. There's things in it, but at the end of the day it's a bit empty save from a couple of shrines for exemple.

In RDR2, I feel like the map and what's in it was more carefully crafted. There's a logic in where the train is placed, where the bayou is, the different way the city are placed based on their geography and temperature as well as how people's behavior change in relation to that. That's why I consider RDR2 to have a better open world than BOTW, but I can perfectly understand why one would prefer BOTW over it.

Equanimity · Jun 12, 2019

hussien-11 said:
And i do? I was tasked of reviewing it and RDR2 had a 95 score from me for its outstanding achievements. it was added to both Metacritic and Opencritic.
however, it wasn't a game without flaws, and it had areas that could clearly improve in future installments. it had areas some developers surpassed in a big way (like the mission structure).

You gave it a 95 despite the flaws. That's not a score you reserve for games that are only/mainly good at realism.

Bakercat · Jun 12, 2019

Hopefully this means a better story and characters. The major thing I hated about BotW was the lack of story and character growth.

Cordelia · Jun 12, 2019

ITT people can't have bad opinion for RDR2 because it has high metacritic score.

I love the open world.

I absolutely hate the gameplay.

Kalentan · Jun 12, 2019

So this is really bad...

We can't let Breath of the Wild 2 be touched by Western taint.

Breath of the Wild created the open world genre. It pioneered towers. It does not learn. It only teaches!

Gaming was dead before Breath of the Wild came along.

AllMight1 · Jun 12, 2019

literally every mundane thing botw did it better and without wasting 15 seconds of my life whenn i had to pick something from the floor

LegendofLex · Jun 12, 2019

Mass_Pincup said:
This is maybe where we don't really understand each others. For me, hidden treasure aren't really apart of what I consider open world design. When I say that BOTW is a bit barren in its world I'm talking about the fields for exemple or the desert. There's things in it, but at the end of the day it's a bit empty save from a couple of shrines for exemple.

In RDR2, I feel like the map and what's in it was more carefully crafted. There's a logic in where the train is placed, where the bayou is, the different way the city are placed based on their geography and temperature as well as how people's behavior change in relation to that. That's why I consider RDR2 to have a better open world than BOTW, but I can perfectly understand why one would prefer BOTW over it.

I mean, there's logic like this in Zelda's world design, too, mostly revolving around a couple things:

- What you can see from any given point in the world based on the surrounding topography
- Spacing things out just so to create challenges for players who stumble into regions (like extreme temperature zones) without proper preparation (imagine trying to explore Hebra or the desert in extreme weather with only a single food buff)
- Creating settings and layouts that add flavor to otherwise repetitive enemy encounters

hussien-11 · Jun 12, 2019

Equanimity said:
You gave it a 95 despite the flaws. That's not a score you reserve for games that are only/mainly good at realism.

I never said it was only good at realism. it is a great game overall, i even liked how believable it was with its animation despite a lot of people hating how slow it is :P
what I'm saying is, it is not better than every open world game "in every area" like a lot of Rockstar fans claims or something impossible to reach.

i can say the same about BotW despite it being a 10/10 game in my book. i didn't like the weapons durability system at all, but its not enough to take away from all the incredible things the game achieved.

Cordelia said:
ITT people can't have bad opinion for RDR2 because it has high metacritic score.

Maybe i shouldn't say this, but Metacritic scores are... i don't know.
they have "weight", the more famous you are, the more weight your score have.

lets say Gamespot gave a game 9/10
and 5 other unknown websites rated the game 7/10
the overall score will still be closer to the score assigned by Gamespot (for example)

is this really good? no. reviews in my humble opinion should be treated more equally. it is not a collection of reviews in its current state as much as it is a collection of scores given by famous publications.

Mass_Pincup said:
This is maybe where we don't really understand each others. For me, hidden treasure aren't really apart of what I consider open world design. When I say that BOTW is a bit barren in its world I'm talking about the fields for exemple or the desert. There's things in it, but at the end of the day it's a bit empty save from a couple of shrines for exemple.

We are finding a common ground now though :P
in the end of the day i mentioned those because they are what really fills the world of this game (with other things of course). the philosophy behind the games serves its focus on gameplay and exploration, the design of the world serves this purpose. the world subtly guides you to discover its wonders because this is the experience that those developers wanted to make.
but i understand that not anyone will prefer this direction/philosophy in designing a game.
though this is why i said there is no open world game out there that beat all the others in every area. a lot of great things out there with unique approached and different strengths ^^

Parenegade · Jun 12, 2019

File this under "Era's dumbest and most embarrassing" threads.

Leviathan · Jun 12, 2019

RDR2 wasn't my GotY, but as an open world game it was revolutionary. It was a great title almost everywhere but this forum.

This is a nice statement and an encouraging sign that they're looking to new, unique places for inspiration. I hope they borrow some of that narrative focus, player/NPC interaction, and depth.

Bakercat said:
Hopefully this means a better story and characters. The major thing I hated about BotW was the lack of story and character growth.

Yeah, sadly all the interesting plot/character content was locked in flashbacks to the past, and Link as the protagonist was a big limitation on the RP part of the RPG.

I'm of the opinion that an open-world game can have a silent/neutral protagonist or a visually established, set protagonist, but that you lose something when you end up with both.

Deleted member 37917 · Jun 12, 2019

There's a lot of good things to lift from RDR2. The game played like ass and just isn't much fun for me, but it's impressively lively and consistent.
I hope we'll get big cities, tons of NPCs, an interesting story, all while keeping the strong points of BOTW.

SmokedSalmon · Jun 12, 2019

Skyrim isn't really my jam, so when Aonuma talked about it for the fist BotW I was concerned. That said, I really ended up liking BotW anyways. I learned that inspiration doesn't imply directly copying a formula, not in the slightest. My personal bias against a certain game does not have any effect on how these developers interpret elements from different games. I don't think there is any reason to be worried about this if you didn't like RDR2.

Idontwantit · Jun 12, 2019

Never hurts to get inspired. In Nintendo Zelda team we trust!

Cordelia · Jun 12, 2019

hussien-11 said:
Maybe i shouldn't say this, but Metacritic scores are... i don't know.
they have "weight", the more famous you are, the more weight your score have.

lets say Gamespot gave a game 9/10
and 5 other unknown websites rated the game 7/10
the overall score will still be closer to the score assigned by Gamespot (for example)

is this really good? no. reviews in my humble opinion should be treated more equally. it is not a collection of reviews in its current state as much as it is a collection of scores given by famous publications.

I know, that's why I never took metascore seriously.

DontHateTheBacon · Jun 12, 2019

That's great to hear. Red Dead 2's problem for me was the gameplay, which I don't worry about coming from the Zelda team.

Everything else about that game was really, really good. Great game to draw inspiration from.

takriel · Jun 12, 2019

Talk about overreactions in here, wow.

Deleted member 4346 · Jun 12, 2019

Maybe put some narrative and character development in BotW2 then?

Equanimity · Jun 12, 2019

hussien-11 said:
I never said it was only good at realism. it is a great game overall, i even liked how believable it was with its animation despite a lot of people hating how slow it is :P
what I'm saying is, it is not better than every open world game "in every area" like a lot of Rockstar fans claims or something impossible to reach.

I didn't say the bolded, and I agree with you.

hussien-11 said:
i can say the same about BotW despite it being a 10/10 game in my book. i didn't like the weapons durability system at all, but its not enough to take away from all the incredible things the game achieved.

Again, I'm in complete agreement. The same applies to RDR2, imo.

Revven · Jun 12, 2019

This is just like when people overreacted about Aonuma saying he played Skyrim and was taking inspiration from that game for BotW.

Except in this case it's a worse reaction because people actually dislike a lot of what RDR2 did but just because the Zelda team is taking inspiration from it does not mean they are copying everything it did.

lt519 · Jun 12, 2019

Parenegade said:
File this under "Era's dumbest and most embarrassing" threads.

Have you seen the Witcher 3 Switch resolution thread today? Everyone is coming out of the woodwork today for some bad hot-takes.

Kamaros · Jun 12, 2019

Jesus... they're like polar opposites games in their open world take. And BoTW is far, far superior, gameplay, navegation, discoverability, interaction and everything else, basically.

Hope is more a inspiration and nothing else.

Wamb0wneD · Jun 12, 2019

Joeyro said:
This thread boils down to "I didn't like RDR2, so them being inspired by it means BotW2 will be like RDR2 now". I doubt they even have the resources to attempt a Rockstar open world.

You don't need much resources to produce shitty combat and mission design. The only thing that RDR2 has going for it is visuals and over all production values.

Edgar · Jun 12, 2019

Wamb0wneD said:
You don't need much resources to produce shitty combat and mission design. The only thing that RDR2 has going for it is visuals and over all production values.

The only thing that rdr 2 has going for is characters, music, writing, performances, slow methodical light cowboy sim and visuals.

impact · Jun 12, 2019

Kamaros said:
Jesus... they're like polar opposites games in their open world take. And BoTW is far, far superior, gameplay, navegation, discoverability, interaction and everything else, basically.

Hope is more a inspiration and nothing else.

Wamb0wneD said:
You don't need much resources to produce shitty combat and mission design. The only thing that RDR2 has going for it is visuals and over all production values.

Sounds like most people bitching have never played Red Dead 2.

Yes kiddos, all it has going for it is GRAFFIX!!!

Joeyro · Jun 12, 2019

Wamb0wneD said:
You don't need much resources to produce shitty combat and mission design. The only thing that RDR2 has going for it is visuals and over all production values.

I clearly said resources for Rockstar style open world which is a monumental achievement for the gaming industry. I'm sorry but i refuse to believe that you ever played RDR2 or played more than an hour or two with this kind of hyperbole.

Kamaros · Jun 12, 2019

impact said:
Sounds like most people bitching have never played Red Dead 2.

Yes kiddos, all it has going for it is GRAFFIX!!!

So, even if i finished the game with almost 100% i cannot criticize it?

Seems to me you are the one bitching over someone's else opinion about a game on the internet lol

Falchion · Jun 12, 2019

Can't wait for Sheriff Link to mosey into town and dust up some Bobkins.

Robdraggoo · Jun 12, 2019

Maybe this just means instead of your weapons breaking you j6st have to clean them from time to time. I could be cool with that.

Holundrian · Jun 12, 2019

Looking forward to having horse tripping for a more immersive realistic riding experience in botw. Horses with self preservation instinct are too unrealistic.

Chopchop · Jun 12, 2019

If they looked at Skyrim and produced BotW, then I don't think there's anything to worry about.

In this case, I trust that when they say "draw inspiration", they really do mean just drawing inspiration, and not copying another game beat for beat without thinking.

JasoNsider · Jun 12, 2019

Don't worry, it's just inspiration. It could be something as simple as "wow, they really were ambitious on this game!"

Reddaye · Jun 12, 2019

Sounds good to me. RDR2 was my GOTY last year.

Aonuma says that many of the younger staff on BOTW2 are playing and inspired by RDR2

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