Apex Legends developers spark outrage after calling gamers “dicks”, “ass-hats”and “freeloaders”

[Dreams-Visions]

Or maybe it's a clear indicator that your customers are garbage?

If all this had been said privately and then leaked we'd still get the same blowback. They're human, and contrary to this idea that customers are to be coddled and fed PR bullshit, I have more respect for a company, or employees, that tells the truth and doesn't feed me what I want to hear.

All that happened was a bunch of assholes got called out for being assholes, and then more assholes acted all indignant because apparently you aren't allowed to call people on their bullshit.

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There is a time, place and method for doing so while retaining your professionalism, and without stooping to the level of trolls and sociopaths. This doesn't hurt those trolls, while creating more PR problems for the company.

As others have said, if you can't handle ignoring trolls or responding to them like a grown-ass man/woman and professional, the job isn't for you. It really, really, really is that simple. And that's okay! Not everyone is suited for this sort of customer-facing PR for exactly these reasons. I know we're in the era of Donald Trump, but there is still something to be said about professionalism and dignity. Things like this are what get people fired or told to stay the fuck off of social media.

Respawn's customers are NOT garbage. The sociopaths attacking them are. Their customers have some criticisms that deserve their consideration and course correction where appropriate. The sociopaths deserve the ignore button, as they were never worth responding to or considering in the first place.

 

[OléGunner]

Interesting and crazy thread to read.
What I'm gathering from this is:

1. Majority of gamers act like and are perceived to be ass holes, so devs hitting back at those players is justified (agreed)
2. Any normal/reasonable criticism from players will be ignored, as focus has to be on the ass holes as its more relevant?
3. Most of the focus in such situations will be pro-dev which I agree with but how do you entertain the legit criticisms?

The mtx model for this Apex event was not great and downright predatory, so it will be interesting to see how they devs will respond beyond the raging lunatics who deserve ridicule.

 

[Timppis]

Again, that's why it's important to (1) know who your audience is and (2) ignore these trolls and psychos, who are not really part of your audience. To address them in a way that shows you're not also 17 years old prone to shit-flinging and to make clear your understanding that said trolls are distinct from your fans and supports who may also have criticisms of their own. It's very easy for these sorts of responses to be seen as antipathy towards your entire player base at first glance, causing new problems while failing to solve the old ones. Those aren't the optics you want, ever.

Basically, someone needs to read If, by Rudyard Kipling and internalize it.

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I agree with you on both of your stances. But I also see enough vitriol in other aspects of life and in a way that yes, sometimes you are allowed to just respond to someone that they are in fact a dick. Unprofessional doesn't mean bad person or wrong. It just means that you might have regarding your position, done differently regarding the product and company you represent. Professionalism isn't always the right thing to do.

I will read that because I haven't.

Cool; that's a nice fantasy world you're living in. Back in the real world, my point stands. If you can't be professional in public facing messaging, get out of that role.

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Cool. You're part of the problem, not solution.

I could say as easily that if you can't be non-dick, get out of the internet and stop messaging anyone in any situation. Crawl under a rock and live happily alone there.

 

[Pryme]

If you're in a public facing role, and feel like you can't take the toxicity without losing your cool, it's a clear indicator that you shouldn't be in that role.

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No. it's a clear indicator that it's time to crack down on the fringe elements that are toxic.
Why are gamers the only ones allowed to be so shitty without being called to question ?

No sane person criticized Frank Lampard (Chelsea football club manager) when he came out strongly condemning Chelsea fans that racially abused one of his players. Nobody asked him if it was 'professional' to hit at toxic fans. Regular fans didn't feel
Insulted since they knew they weren't the racist folks being castigated.

But when it comes to gaming, a dev can't hit out at offensive fans without being blamed.

 

[ADee]

I really understand the developers, how it may feel when everything turns against them. Attacking specific people will never ever be justified.

However critisizing a company for bad behaviour and predatory microtransactions is not harrassment. It's the consumer's right to discuss those things. The problem we see now is that people who play games are getting fed up by lootboxes and skins which costs more than any game out on the market.
It's becoming a real problem when people gets themself in debt for thousands of dollars just because they want to enjoy video games.
That's the problem with capitalism, a company needs to earn more money that what is possible and in so they come up with things like lootboxes, whaling and other scummy things.

The freeloader comment is just unnecessary too, in a f2p game you need those "freeloaders" to populate the game so that people returns, even if it was said in jest it's still wrong since the "freeloaders" spend their valuable time playing those games which can be more valuable than money for some.

But to those who attacks the developer, instead of critisizing his view. Fuck those

 

[SENPAIatLARGE]

agreed.

But I will again say: having a range of prices regularly available would solve most of these issues. Apex's biggest issue with skins isn't the fact that $20 skins exist; it's that most of the time the ONLY skins you can buy are $20 skins. Make no mistake: this is intentional as a means of forcing people towards the loot boxes which are comparatively so much less that people are willing to roll the dice and hope they get something they like rather than drop a cold $20, no lube. It fucking sucks and turns off most people from ever looking at their storefront.

Games like League of Legends, Dota 2, Fortnite, and others with lots of MTX and a long run of success have, at their core, a pricing structure that lets people get in with cosmetics at as little as $0.03 (Dota 2, CSGo, Team Fortress 2) or like $3-$5 (League of Legends, Path of Exile, Warframe), or otherwise < $10 (Fortnite) while actually looking nice. Then those games DO add $20+ skins, they look tend to look like 2x-4x the work went into the design and creation relative to their less expensive cousins (including alternate voice lines, new sound effects, lots of visual effects, and so on).

Outside of these new skins for this event, Apex skins have universally looked like shit. With respect to their art department, they've just been terrible. With very rare exception, there is no way could any skins sold in the past on that store have been justified in saying, "yep, this is worth $20/head. Pay us." Again, compare to something that might cost $20 in League of Legends (example) or Dota 2 (example). There is clear effort being made well above and beyond basic skins. Apex? Again, until these new event skins, they've been at best $8 skins relative to what we see in other games. IMO, Respawn should be looking to double the size of their art team if they intend to keep Apex going for years. Weapon and armor skins are big business and they've really missed a massive opportunity be being wholly unprepared to meet the demand for high-quality and mid-tier skins in the $5, $10, and $15 price ranges.

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100% agree. Skins in Apex are poorly priced and don't look that great in comparison to pretty much every free to play game on the market. It's like Respawn/EA did 0 research on the competition when planning the mtx component of their game

 

[Error 52]

Ultimately, thick skin is pretty much a requirement when you're a community manager. If you're ready to go off like this then you are pretty awful at your job.

 

[Cyborg]

where's the lie tho

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This. No lies here

 

[CenaToon]

I don't think this degree of unprofessionalism should be common, nor should it be expected to become a thing. Go about your business and ignore the pockets of trolls, like every other adult in every other profession manages to do. And do so while making room for appropriate doubt and criticism.

The merging of the two (conflating legitimate criticism with psychopathic internet cowards and presenting them as the same thing to attack) in an effort to blunt criticism or avoid self-reflection and acknowledgment of mistakes as a company, however, is definitely a thing that will happen. It will not work and should not be promoted.

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Respawn are not novices in this busisness, at contrary they are veterans here (more if we count some of these devs were infinity ward since 2002). So you magnify the degree of harrassment these people are getting week after week.

Even if this will be an isolated incident, it worries me that a veteran dev team without past incidents like this one (correct me if im wrong please) reacts like that just for "trolling". Maybe it comes to a point that is just more than "trolling"

Maybe im just overlooking things here, but it really surprised me this incident.

 

[Jarhab]

He's right, gamers are trash and entitled, there's nothing wrong with that.

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Gamers are by and large entitled scum and I take no issue with developers calling out their shitty, vitriolic and abusive behaviour.

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Gamers are trash and the Apex service model is a scam.

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I love how people make sweeping generalizations. A gamer is someone who plays games as a hobby. That description fits millions of people. Criticizing a gamer is like criticizing a movie watcher or a book reader. You're insulting a very large group of people based on a vocal minority.

 

[Radeo]

I mean they aren't wrong, but Reddit are so deeply entrenched in their shit that this won't change anything lmao

 

[MadMod]

A few loud mouth gamers are disgusting human beings and the pricing of their skins are disgusting. Do both of those things losing, lead to a win for anyone? I'd say no, but you can't generalise gamers as a whole just cause of a minority of idiots. Millions of gamers exist who never do idiotic, racist comments etc. This is why I think Respawn should just concentrate on finding a balance in their game, instead of crying at people on the internet.

 

[jaymzi]

They ain't wrong, but on the other hand...don't bite the hand that feeds you.

 

[eysoycoco]

The only bad i see is the freeloader stuff. Devs should have a restraining order on gamers from day1 on their career.

 

[Radeo]

It's also spawned this reddit thread with almost 6K upvotes

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It's hilarious how most of the reddit threads like this just read like copypastas

How do you read this and not think it's some cartoon villain monologue ahahahaha

 

[GrantDaNasty]

Gamers are entitled, but F2P is a predatory practice based on how many utilise it.

Devs should not have made those comments, and the users should be more relaxed in their tone.

 

[Airbar]

It's shocking to me how preying on people with mental health issues for maximizing the profit of a giant corporation is seemingly something a lot of ERA posters are okay with? Seems like the moment it moves away from more common mental healt topics the stance of many users is "it's their own damn fault".

 

[Nanashrew]

I would like every company to tell the toxic fans to fuck off, personally. It's been such a long time coming as things have gotten worse and worse over the last 5-10 years. The customer is always right until they are not, and you do not have to swear any fealty to them and I wish people understood this about business. But no, once the gamer sees they are not being catered to in some way, the rage comes out. Then gamers make a call to arms when a developer makes the "cardinal sin" to stand up for themselves after receiving relentless personal attacks shows how shit and entitled gamers are.

Many of the shittiest and toxic gamers have become worse than entitled these days, they have become self-righteous.

 

[Radeo]

I would like every company to tell the toxic fans to fuck off, personally. It's been such a long time coming as things have gotten worse and worse over the last 5-10 years. The customer is always right until they are not, and you do not have to swear any fealty to them and I wish people understood this about business. But no, once the gamer sees they are not being catered to in some way, the rage comes out. Then gamers make a call to arms when a developer makes the "cardinal sin" to stand up for themselves after receiving relentless personal attacks shows how shit and entitled gamers are.

Many of the shittiest and toxic gamers have become worse than entitled these days, they have become self-righteous.

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I'm not full customer support anymore but I still deal with them daily for various work things, and I can't wait for the day I can be more honest with them because the customer always fucking sucks

 

[Miles Davis]

I would like every company to tell the toxic fans to fuck off, personally. It's been such a long time coming as things have gotten worse and worse over the last 5-10 years. The customer is always right until they are not, and you do not have to swear any fealty to them and I wish people understood this about business. But no, once the gamer sees they are not being catered to in some way, the rage comes out. Then gamers make a call to arms when a developer makes the "cardinal sin" to stand up for themselves after receiving relentless personal attacks shows how shit and entitled gamers are.

Many of the shittiest and toxic gamers have become worse than entitled these days, they have become self-righteous.

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Yes yes yes. And the cycle continues. You left out the part where greedy corporations are preying on people as much as they possibly can get away with without criminal complaints. What the hell are you trying to say? Gamers are bad and greedy as fuck corporations are good?

Only in America and its ilk man. You can't make this shit up. So much faux anti-gamer rage and passive-aggressive defense of EA. Dear god.

 

[Miles Davis]

I'm not full customer support anymore but I still deal with them daily for various work things, and I can't wait for the day I can be more honest with them because the customer always fucking sucks

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If the customer always sucks you need to get a new job. I worked retail at some shit places dude. The customer does not ALWAYS suck. About 15% or less of customers are terrible in my experience.

At any rate this is just a huge distraction to cover up all the issues with this game. They really need to work more on legend balance IMHO. Bloodhound and Caustic are nearly helpless. The bottom of the barrel in kills per match even though BH is used twice as much. They need to figure out how to make these legends more viable without breaking things.

Pathfinder sorry to say might need some kind of slight nerf to the grapple or something. Or make it so we can all climb more areas like BOTW.

 

[Radeo]

If the customer always sucks you need to get a new job. I worked retail at some shit places dude. The customer does not ALWAYS suck. About 15% or less of customers are terrible in my experience.

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That was hyperbole, but it doesn't help that my employer is scummy

 

[Deleted member 1698]

Let me fix your analogy.

It's like the head of Mcdonalds calling out customers who come to their outlets to take a shit on their counters and harass their cooks. And then the folks who've been flinging shit around turn around to say they're outraged at being harshly criticized.

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ok but only if they do all that ... but then order a couple of big macs on their way out.

and the mcdonalds sells them the burgers and hopes they come back.

 

[Brinbe]

how to fuck up the bag 101

 

[KORNdog]

yeah, unprofessional maybe. but dead on the money.

 

[Nanashrew]

Yes yes yes. And the cycle continues. You left out the part where greedy corporations are preying on people as much as they possibly can get away with without criminal complaints. What the hell are you trying to say? Gamers are bad and greedy as fuck corporations are good?

Only in America and its ilk man. You can't make this shit up. So much faux anti-gamer rage and passive-aggressive defense of EA. Dear god.

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I've always been critical of MTX and lootboxes and advocate for better policies, and you can find me in a bunch of those threads. I'm not going to entertain the framing that's currently going on with this particular instance that would allow harassers to hide behind consumer advocacy so they can feel justified in their attacks.

 

[Letters]

Toxic gaming community sucks in general but that freeloaders comment from
the dev really rubbed me the wrong way. You just don't say stuff like that of your possible customers. I'm not spending one more cent on this game.

 

[KORNdog]

I love how people make sweeping generalizations. A gamer is someone who plays games as a hobby. That description fits millions of people. Criticizing a gamer is like criticizing a movie watcher or a book reader. You're insulting a very large group of people based on a vocal minority.

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When people take offence to such "generalisations" it's usually because they're part of the problem being addressed. as a gamer i don't take offence when people criticise gamers, why would i? i know i don't harass developers or act like an entitled prick so i'm not who it's directed at in the first place. what it does do is strengthen the message itself and piss off the people who it's actually intended to piss off...i'm good with that.

 

[Crossing Eden]

No, calling out bad business practices is not and never will be 'victim blaming'

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In the context of a discussion started because they received a shit ton of personal insults, harassment, and outright death threats, yes it is.

 

[Astandahl]

They are absolutely right about everything they said.

 

[NoName999]

Yes yes yes. And the cycle continues. You left out the part where greedy corporations are preying on people as much as they possibly can get away with without criminal complaints. What the hell are you trying to say? Gamers are bad and greedy as fuck corporations are good?

Only in America and its ilk man. You can't make this shit up. So much faux anti-gamer rage and passive-aggressive defense of EA. Dear god.

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We have several topics on here bashing microtransactions, loot boxes, and EA all the live long day. Anyone who made their opinion known on them already said their piece.

And let's face it, these "gamers" who cry about it most likely oppose business regulations to prevent this because of "commies are evil" or some other nonsense.

If the customer always sucks you need to get a new job.

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You did not just say this? Okay, Ben Shapiro.

 

[jeyu]

Those days are really hard to interact with people online . Everyone gets hurt for anything . And people think they own the people that made the game they bought or play . When I see devs explode like this m I know they read a lot of mean things. Don't justifies the behavior. But for me is understandable

 

[Miles Davis]

We have several topics on here bashing microtransactions, loot boxes, and EA all the live long day. Anyone who made their opinion known on them already said their piece.

And let's face it, these "gamers" who cry about it most likely oppose business regulations to prevent this because of "commies are evil" or some other nonsense.



You did not just say this? Okay, Ben Shapiro.

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There is nothing wrong with what I said. Poster said it was hyperbole anyway. If the customer always sucks at your job you had better find some other fucking thing to do with your life because your life is going to suck.

I don't get the commies are evil thing. I think quite honestly all people wanted were decent prices and rewards for this. This is not decent, and what they did is bullshit.

Decent would have been 4 loot boxes for playing the game instead of a measily 2. It would have also rewarded people willing to complete all of the main challenges with a legendary or something. And then price the boxes at 400 coins instead and keep the axe for people that want it all. They would have had a lot more happy players and community. They fucked over their community. They deserve an uproar, they don't deserve abuse. Yet they are abusing their community in some way.

They went for max whale sleaze. Not sure how anyone could defend these prices.

In the context of a discussion started because they received a shit ton of personal insults, harassment, and outright death threats, yes it is.

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Death threats? First I heard of it. And these threats are coming from Apex tweens most likely with no intention or capability of doing anything. Personally, all I saw was reddit have a bunch of humor threads. I don't even pay attention to anything past all that garbage. It is what it is. I'm more worried about how S3 is going to keep players at this point.

 

[Premium]

People have been too easily muzzled over the last decade or so and being able to freely express yourself and respond to indignity without fear is appropriate. Constantly pandering to a mob of nerds over perceived slights with infinite apology is not a solution for developers. They have the right to call out stupidity just like fans have the right to call out bad decisions and behavior.

Now, folks need to have a bit of decorum and professionalism, but an outburst here and there is understandable given how much shit is spewed at developers in the age of social media. I'm glad they responded in kind (for once).

 

[oni-link]

In the context of a discussion started because they received a shit ton of personal insults, harassment, and outright death threats, yes it is.

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This is still a terrible take. Yes it's important to highlight that any abuse or harassment is unacceptable, but you have to look at the underlying cause of why people are unhappy with the developers

When people are mad at women being in games, you don't dismiss why they're mad at women being in games. You look at why they dislike women being in games and fight them on that front, because in that situation they're man babies with toxic views

Still wrong they attack devs, but you don't ignore why they attack devs

You have to also look at why people are attacking the Apex devs, and it's because the game introduced predatory and exploitative MXTs for an upcoming event

That doesn't mean the devs deserved it, because no one deserves abuse, but there are hundreds of people who take issue with the MXT model that didn't abuse or insult the developers, and you're throwing them and their concerns under the bus for absolutely no reason, and implying anyone who now discusses this at all is as bad as the people attacking the developers

I have empathy for the developers and can see why they snapped, and I'm 100% against those who are harassing and attacking developers for any reason, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss the underlying issues with why the community as a whole are concerned, and it's pretty shitty to say anyone that does this is victim blaming

 

[Wamb0wneD]

I would like every company to tell the toxic fans to fuck off, personally. It's been such a long time coming as things have gotten worse and worse over the last 5-10 years. The customer is always right until they are not, and you do not have to swear any fealty to them and I wish people understood this about business. But no, once the gamer sees they are not being catered to in some way, the rage comes out. Then gamers make a call to arms when a developer makes the "cardinal sin" to stand up for themselves after receiving relentless personal attacks shows how shit and entitled gamers are.

Many of the shittiest and toxic gamers have become worse than entitled these days, they have become self-righteous.

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Why do you think that is? Could it probably have to do with the fact that gaming companies get scummier by the year? You asked what Jenifer Hepler did to deserve what happened to her in a thread about people hurling insults at Respawn (and again, after reading in it yesterday, that subreddit as a whole is way tamer than the two quotes in the OP make it seem like). When I said she didn't do anything to deserve that but that I also think conflating what happened to her with what is happening here isn't ok, and you just prefered to ignore that response for some reason.
Instead it's just "the gamers" here and "the gamers" there.

Again, why are you so eager to conflate the worst instances of harassment with every relatively harmless controversy like this one? If there's death threats, doxxing and other shit going on get the police involved, everything else just isn't worthy of adressing and instead the ignore button, by any kind of PR person.
To you everything seems to be gamerrage as soon people start complaining, no matter what is actualy being said or done.

Toxic gaming community sucks in general but that freeloaders comment from
the dev really rubbed me the wrong way. You just don't say stuff like that of your possible customers. I'm not spending one more cent on this game.

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But they love that about you. (lol)

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Anyome saying "but" in regards to the harassment these people are receiving is a clown. Sorry but you are. There is no excuse to harass people because you're mad about their company's overall business practice.

Fuck outta here.

 

[oni-link]

Anyome saying "but" in regards to the harassment these people are receiving is a clown. Sorry but you are. There is no excuse to harass people because you're mad about their company's overall business practice.

Fuck outta here.

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Who is saying that? Do you have an example?

I don't think anyone is endorsing harassment because of the MXT model (or at all)

That doesn't mean the MXT model is irreverent to the discussion, as it's literally why people are upset

 

[Pryme]

ok but only if they do all that ... but then order a couple of big macs on their way out.

and the mcdonalds sells them the burgers and hopes they come back.

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I'll be blunt with you.
The toxic fans are an extremely vocal and abrasive minority. And in this Apex scenario, most wouldn't have spent any money.

They aren't really worth the hassle...which is why the devs are finally beginning to give them frank feedback.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Who is saying that? Do you have an example?

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This is still a terrible take. Yes it's important to highlight that any abuse or harassment is unacceptable, but

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Well you for one.

The discussion about them fucking up MXT is not why these developers are mad. Constantly defaulting to "but they fucked up too!!!" is clown shoes. Again. Fuck outta here. They already addressed that they see the issue formally. They already stated they will engage with people who are respectful.

These developers are pissed because they are being harassed. There is no "but" about harassment. Everytime someone says "but" they are legitimizing the abuse. It doesn't fucking matter if MXT made people mad. It doesn't give any legitimacy to how people are treating them.

Say it with me.

"Harassing people is bad period". There is no such thing as a reason why.

 

[Deleted member 2652]

can't wait to see everyone who feels slighted over the devs comments here over in the ion fury thread

not holding my breath

 

[Socivol]

If you're in a public facing role, and feel like you can't take the toxicity without losing your cool, it's a clear indicator that you shouldn't be in that role.

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This. I am pretty stunned at the amount of people that agree with the dev comments in a public forum in an official capacity. I have a customer facing job and I can definitely say I would've been fired for this. I understand being upset, angry, and annoyed at people coming at you left, but you should have a level of professionalism (like every job should) to not get in the mud with them. I am really shocked they felt comfortable making those comments on handles that are attached to their jobs.

 

[Abominuz]

Always stay professional, you are representing a company. Look at how much damage Randy Pitchford does with his antics.

 

[Hybrid Rainbow]

Always stay professional, you are representing a company. Look at how much damage Randy Pitchford does with his antics.

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This really should be quoted on the first page. You represent your company at all times. You think a fast food joint would care if a customer cussed you out and you responded the same way in front of a packed place? No. Now if they have actual evidence of people sending them threatening messages and death threats, that's one thing and will be appropriately handled by the moderators on Reddit. Getting assblasted because your customers are calling out your shitty practices? Nah, that doesn't give you a free pass to act like a child.

 

[northnorth]

Conversely, it's never appropriate to call employees or community managers, and I quote, "money grabbing fucks."

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Oh true that absolutely. It's all out of line. But when a customer does that, you never retaliate with language of your own. I don't work with customers anymore but in all customer facing employment in my life from a hibachi grill and a liquor store as a teenager, to claims specialist, to IT, etc... it's never acceptable or okay to talk to a customer like that. No matter what they do.

 

[Decarb]

In the context of a discussion started because they received a shit ton of personal insults, harassment, and outright death threats, yes it is.

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Wait what? They're receiving death threats now?

 

[KINGOFSHIBUYA Ltd.]

How dare they attack a marginalized group like gamers?

Spoiler

I already forgave them. They made a great game. Made it free. Douchebags complain. There are free games that I dont like 100%. I just play them or I don't. No douchebagery over here.

 

[Dre G Writer]

Wait what? They're receiving death threats now?

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This isn't the first time this has happened, nor is it the last. Some folk takes gaming waaaaaaaay too serious to the point where they want to really kill someone. Emotions are no joke.

 

[zon]

The user and the dev are both right in those pics. I can't fault either of them, not much at least.

 

[VeePs]

Wait what? They're receiving death threats now?

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That's the gaming community. Jeff Gerstmann recurved death threats for giving Zelda a 8.8 and not a 9.0.

BronsonLee received death threats for his discussion on the EGS.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/we...ead-op-and-threadmarks-before-posting.132551/